ToME is (too?) hard

Toggle sidebar Toggle sidebar
G

Guest

Guest
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Sorry if ToME is not to be discussed here, but since it's an Angband
variant (albeit a greatly sidelined one) I'll stick it here.

Migrating from ZAngband to Hengband was enjoyable, both are excellent
well-paced games. But then I discovered ToME and was astounded by it's
brilliant character creation system. But after having fun with my
Half-Trolls who had Chaos Rank strength from the start of Hengband, I
find ToME rock hard, I mean, *really* hard. Even with a good balanced
warrior, fighting giant white mice in Lev 1 of The Barrows often
results in death or at least a hasty retreat.

Also, have they gone out of their way to make the interface as clueless
as possible? I think I might be being a little stupid here, but when I
go to use skills it asks me to make a choice of say a-d without giving
me any indication of what a,b,c or d mean. I run the latest version on
win32(XP). Anyone experiencing the same annoyance/problem, and have a
suggestion of getting over it?

So, I ask, was ToME meant to be frustrating and hard, or is it just me?
The game itself has no warnings of its ability to cause stomach ulcers,
of course...
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

IDX wrote:
> Sorry if ToME is not to be discussed here, but since it's an Angband
> variant (albeit a greatly sidelined one) I'll stick it here.
>

This is usually ok, especially if you prefix your subject with [ToME] so
others (who are not interested in ToME) can ignore the thread. A much
better place to discuss ToME is on the ToME forums. Check out
http://www.t-o-m-e.net and click on Forums.

> Migrating from ZAngband to Hengband was enjoyable, both are excellent
> well-paced games. But then I discovered ToME and was astounded by it's
> brilliant character creation system. But after having fun with my
> Half-Trolls who had Chaos Rank strength from the start of Hengband, I
> find ToME rock hard, I mean, *really* hard. Even with a good balanced
> warrior, fighting giant white mice in Lev 1 of The Barrows often
> results in death or at least a hasty retreat.
>

Like most rogue-likes, there is an initial period of confusion when
beginning ToME. Moving from ZAngband to Hengband was much simpler since
they are so closely related.

> Also, have they gone out of their way to make the interface as clueless
> as possible? I think I might be being a little stupid here, but when I
> go to use skills it asks me to make a choice of say a-d without giving
> me any indication of what a,b,c or d mean. I run the latest version on
> win32(XP). Anyone experiencing the same annoyance/problem, and have a
> suggestion of getting over it?

If I'm not mistaken, ToME, previously PernBand, also came from Zangband,
but the resemblance is mostly lost since then.

As for being hard.. the authors of ToME have made an effort to make the
transition as easy as possible. There is an extensive help system that
describes all the skills and such.

As for the skill usage, if you hit the '?', you get a description of
what skills are available. Further, you can macro the most oft used
skills. Since the letters change, however, be sure to use the @<skill
anme> syntax. I think this is discussed in more detail in the help system.

>
> So, I ask, was ToME meant to be frustrating and hard, or is it just me?
> The game itself has no warnings of its ability to cause stomach ulcers,
> of course...
>

I wouldn't say that ToME is meant to be harder than Angband, but it is
richer in story. There are some good character combinations that help
learn the game. Check out the spoilers forums on the ToME web page to
see what they are if you're interested.

Also, if you are looking specifically for a more Tolkienized experience,
check out the Theme module for ToME. It's even more Tolkienized.

Have fun!

--
Wil Hunt
Geek in training.
Jack of few trades, master of none.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

IDX wrote:
> Sorry if ToME is not to be discussed here, but since it's an Angband
> variant (albeit a greatly sidelined one) I'll stick it here.
>
> Migrating from ZAngband to Hengband was enjoyable, both are excellent
> well-paced games. But then I discovered ToME and was astounded by it's
> brilliant character creation system. But after having fun with my
> Half-Trolls who had Chaos Rank strength from the start of Hengband, I
> find ToME rock hard, I mean, *really* hard. Even with a good balanced
> warrior, fighting giant white mice in Lev 1 of The Barrows often
> results in death or at least a hasty retreat.
>
> Also, have they gone out of their way to make the interface as clueless
> as possible? I think I might be being a little stupid here, but when I
> go to use skills it asks me to make a choice of say a-d without giving
> me any indication of what a,b,c or d mean. I run the latest version on
> win32(XP). Anyone experiencing the same annoyance/problem, and have a
> suggestion of getting over it?
>
> So, I ask, was ToME meant to be frustrating and hard, or is it just me?
> The game itself has no warnings of its ability to cause stomach ulcers,
> of course...

It's not that hard, but you *really* need to figure out a starting
strategy. Lord Dimwit's advice is OK, though he's very conservative.
(The Barrow Downs is a waste of time.)


Here are some starting pointers.

1. Play around with the "stance" settings. "Fast Berserker" makes
killing weak stuff a breeze. "Fast Coward" + ?Phase or ?Teleport makes
scumming for CSW Mushrooms easy.

Make macros for
\e\e\eCTTTTEEEE\e (Fast/berserk or return to normal)
\e\e\eCtttteeee\e (return to normal or slug-coward for search/disarm)
Use them a lot. (You may want other stances later in the game.)


2. Always carry !Hero and/or ?Bless, especially in ToME.

3. Try an archer -- 'Kill them before they see you', is the character
"motto".

4. Petty-Dwarf is a *great* race, though getting started is a little
trickier. They catch up fast, however.

5. Spreading skills thin is a recipe for losing.
Don't waste anything on Bowmastery or Slingmastery. With branded ammo,
you can kill stuff easily until Archery 20, at which point buy an xbow.

For the same reason, Fumblefingers quests are also of limited use,
except possibly to get a little conveyance. You are much better off
getting utility spells via God worship.



--------SPOILERS-------------------

An easy, and aggressive, starting strategy is to use !Hero and/or
?Blessing, set fast berserk, and scum the shallow stream to the south
for nagas and lizardmen. (Just go back and forth at the border until a
naga shows up.)

The first !Hero or ?Blessing will get you to cl 5, at which point you
can invest it all in Bowmastery skill. After killing a few lizardmen,
get to Archery 10, and start forging bow ammo in Lothlorien. (DO NOT
finish the wolves quest.) You may need to kill a few wolves with a
dagger (Fast/Berserk) before you can forge ammo.

If you want to keep playing aggressively, sell some forged ego ammo to
buy a Ring of RFire and some !Heat, and a long-bow. At cl ~13 (you
should get that far just killing some wolves) you can clear out the old
mage quest with branded arrows, then dive thru Mirkwood or take other
town quests (thieves, trolls) or whatever. (You might want to
save-scum to learn the old mage quest.)

First targets:

Combat 10+ (Pseudo-ID)
Archery 10, then 20 (This will let you brand bolts)
XBowmastery 16, then 20, then 32


After Xbowmastery+Archery 20 you can start spending a little on
Weaponmastery, Prayer, Stealth, Devices, etc.

You will eventually need:

Combat 40+
Weaponmastery <= 20 (You will use this only for packs of extremely
weak monsters.)
Archery 50
Crossbowmastery 32 (or 50, depending on play style)
Magic Devices 30+ (34 is required for Mass Genocide from devices)

Eru worship. Mana gives Elemental Shield if you don't find Colluin,
and the detection spells are incredible, despite blunt/blessed weapons
limitation, and temporary SI helps for aggressive play early.
Manwe is also a reasonable choice.
Yavanna, Melkor, Tulkas are not so good for Archer.

--------------


Actually, ToME combat is pretty easy.
What is hard is the big level quests, especially Eol, Maeglin, Mt Doom.
Some princess quests are also very hard, and you *must* complete them,
unless you avoid that level altogether (like dl 1-10), or cheat with
the Thunderlord Nest. (I cheated only for Dol Guldur.)

You will find incredible Ego Bows like:

d) a Heavy Crossbow of Extra Might (x7) (+17,+28)

With 32 Xbowmastery, that's a x30 multiplier; at 50, it's x44!

Here's my one win:

http://angband.oook.cz/ladder-show.php?id=4816
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 13:47:53 -0700, IDX wrote:

> So, I ask, was ToME meant to be frustrating and hard, or is it just me?
> The game itself has no warnings of its ability to cause stomach ulcers,
> of course...

ToME 2.3 got harder in the early game. Warriors are advised to use the
tactics settings in a timely manner (press C, then keep pressing t until
you see something you like).

--
Neil Stevens - neil@hakubi.us

'A republic, if you can keep it.' -- Benjamin Franklin
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 15:42:38 -0700, Wil Hunt wrote:

> IDX wrote:
>> Sorry if ToME is not to be discussed here, but since it's an Angband
>> variant (albeit a greatly sidelined one) I'll stick it here.
>>
>
> This is usually ok, especially if you prefix your subject with [ToME] so
> others (who are not interested in ToME) can ignore the thread. A much
> better place to discuss ToME is on the ToME forums. Check out
> http://www.t-o-m-e.net and click on Forums.

I disagree with that. If you're uncomfortable with r.g.r.a for ToME,
r.g.r.misc is right there. I think it's the ideal group for ToME.

The ToME forums are run with horrid software, and Usenet offers any number
of advantages over them.

--
Neil Stevens - neil@hakubi.us

'A republic, if you can keep it.' -- Benjamin Franklin
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 17:27:55 -0700, pete mack wrote:
> (The Barrow Downs is a waste of time.)

Not for a beginner, not on your life. For someone who's NOT going to be
winning the game for a month or so, random quests in the Barrow-downs are
a low-risk, high-reward proposition. Once you're good enough to start
getting late in the plot, the risks start to catch up with the rewards,
but for a ToME beginner who's not going to get that far to begin with,
especially one playing some sort of warrior, a few random quests are great.

--
Neil Stevens - neil@hakubi.us

'A republic, if you can keep it.' -- Benjamin Franklin
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Neil Stevens wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 17:27:55 -0700, pete mack wrote:
> > (The Barrow Downs is a waste of time.)
>
> Not for a beginner, not on your life. For someone who's NOT going to be
> winning the game for a month or so, random quests in the Barrow-downs are
> a low-risk, high-reward proposition. Once you're good enough to start
> getting late in the plot, the risks start to catch up with the rewards,
> but for a ToME beginner who's not going to get that far to begin with,
> especially one playing some sort of warrior, a few random quests are great.

A ToME beginner is someone who knows how to play angband but not how to
play ToME... In ToME, you need to focus on:

1) Stay alive.
2) get enough skill to be inherently deadly.
3) get equipment & stats.

>From that point of view, your advice is backwards. Dying at cl 1 is a
waste of time. And killing fruitbats is a terrible way to advance in
level.

Reliably doing the Old Mage Quest at cl 13, now that counts for a lot,
and you generally end up with an ego item. (This only works for Archer
class!)

An aggressive starting strategy seems a lot more rewarding than
slogging through the early levels looking for stairs, and failing to
unlock doors or disarm traps. It's surely worth attempting, at least a
few times!

In ordinary 'Band, I tend lose a lot of characters early to lack of
resources, but if I make it to cl 20, I have a very good shot of
getting to cl 35+. Getting an easy grubstake and jumping directly to
cl 20 solves this problem very efficiently.

On the other hand...
Playing Archer, you don't need outstanding equipment, you just need
high xbowmastery skill and basic resists for a big part of the game.
Early quest rewards are likely to be things of very limited use, unless
you get extremely lucky with an artifact cloak or armor/shield of
Resistance. An ego sling or shortbow is pretty much worthless, since
you are going to be investing only in xbow mastery. In contrast, a lt
xbow(+9,+9) is a phenominal weapon in ToME, comparable to Bard in
ordinary Angband.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

I find it unusual that someone should claim that web forums are
superior to Usenet due to the fact that Usenet resembles an archaic
text editor. After all, Angband, and ToME, both use ASCII symbols for
graphics. As such, one would expect players of *band to be more
favorable to bare-bones, all-utility, type deals.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Neil Stevens <neil@hakubi.us> writes:

>
> The ToME forums are run with horrid software, and Usenet offers any number
> of advantages over them.

Web forums are for people who don't live in text editors.

cheers, Rich.

--
rich walker | Shadow Robot Company | rw@shadow.org.uk
technical director 251 Liverpool Road |
need a Hand? London N1 1LX | +UK 20 7700 2487
www.shadow.org.uk/products/newhand.shtml
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Rich Walker wrote:
> Neil Stevens <neil@hakubi.us> writes:
>
>>The ToME forums are run with horrid software, and Usenet offers any number
>>of advantages over them.
>
> Web forums are for people who don't live in text editors.

Web forums are for people that like pretty pictures.

Timo Pietilä
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

In article <m2r7biwe86.fsf@Sherm-Pendleys-Computer.local>,
Sherm Pendley <sherm@dot-app.org> wrote:
>Neil Stevens <neil@hakubi.us> writes:
>
>> The ToME forums are run with horrid software, and Usenet offers any number
>> of advantages over them.
>
>I have yet to see a web-based forum for which that was not true. ;-)

Web forums are inevitably somebody reinventing Usenet, badly.

(To be fair, it's probably not possible to reinvent it well when the
front-end must be a web browser, which just isn't designed for the
task.)
--
Julian Lighton jl8e@fragment.com
/* You are not expected to understand this. */
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Timo Pietilä wrote:
> Neil Stevens wrote:
> > On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 10:39:01 -0700, pete mack wrote:
> >
> >>A ToME beginner is someone who knows how to play angband but not how to
> >>play ToME...
> >
> > We get plenty of ToME players who've never played Angband before.
> > But even among Angband players, I think you underestimate the differences.
>
> That's right. I tried ToME some time a go and didn't get anywhere. I
> didn't have any idea what to do. Reading help-files helps and familiar
> UI also helps, but gameplay is totally different.
>
> It is almost like comparing Nethack and Angband. ToME is further away
> from Angband than Moria.

Nethack is a lot further away.

Once you reach cl 10, ToME plays very similar to Angband; even the very
beginning isn't so different once you discover the stance settings.
And learn the map...

Anyway, none of this neither proves nor disproves my advice. I was
giving it after days of flailing of exactly the type described in the
original article. I still believe it can help reduce that flailing.
Though I left out one thing: do the Bree town quest after killing your
naga, to get a little ready cash for travelling. (You probably need to
visit the scroll shop...)
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Rich Walker wrote:
> "pete mack" <pmac360@hotmail.com> writes:
> > Though I left out one thing: do the Bree town quest after killing your
> > naga, to get a little ready cash for travelling. (You probably need to
> > visit the scroll shop...)
>
> I always just sell anything redundant, kill a few townspeople for a bit
> of extra cash, buy a bow, arrows and cure light wounds, and then do the
> Bree quest first.
>
> Keep some money on you so the rogues will teleport away when they hit
> you :->

Like I said, *you need a plan*. Yours is also reasonable. I prefer
the naga as a first target, because there's a huge experience
multiplier when killing an OOD monster at cl 1; I don't like to waste
it on a lousy novice rogue. So I pick up the !Hero instead of !CLW.

Going straight to the Barrow-Downs is incredibly frustrating, and
frequently fatal. You can hardly even open the doors. But by the time
you finish killing nagas and/or thieves, the Barrow-Downs is too wimpy
to be worth wasting time on.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On 21 Sep 2005 15:43:53 -0700, k2grey@gmail.com wrote:

> I find it unusual that someone should claim that web forums are
> superior to Usenet due to the fact that Usenet resembles an archaic
> text editor. After all, Angband, and ToME, both use ASCII symbols for
> graphics. As such, one would expect players of *band to be more
> favorable to bare-bones, all-utility, type deals.

Ah... But how many new players of roguelikes start off using graphics
nowadays?

E.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 10:39:01 -0700, pete mack wrote:

> A ToME beginner is someone who knows how to play angband but not how to
> play ToME...

We get plenty of ToME players who've never played Angband before.
But even among Angband players, I think you underestimate the differences.

I don't think Angband and ToME are really that alike anymore. Just read
any Angband strategy thread, and think of how much or how little of it
applies to ToME. Certainly optimal ToME strategy is totally irrelevant to
Angband.

Is there a single Angband class that plays the same way in ToME?

--
Neil Stevens - neil@hakubi.us

'A republic, if you can keep it.' -- Benjamin Franklin
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Edo wrote:
> On 21 Sep 2005 15:43:53 -0700, k2grey@gmail.com wrote:
>
>
>>I find it unusual that someone should claim that web forums are
>>superior to Usenet due to the fact that Usenet resembles an archaic
>>text editor. After all, Angband, and ToME, both use ASCII symbols for
>>graphics. As such, one would expect players of *band to be more
>>favorable to bare-bones, all-utility, type deals.
>
> Ah... But how many new players of roguelikes start off using graphics
> nowadays?

Probably very few. Graphics are not that good, and from letters you see
faster what it is without guessing.

Timo Pietilä
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Neil Stevens wrote:
> On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 10:39:01 -0700, pete mack wrote:
>
>>A ToME beginner is someone who knows how to play angband but not how to
>>play ToME...
>
> We get plenty of ToME players who've never played Angband before.
> But even among Angband players, I think you underestimate the differences.

That's right. I tried ToME some time a go and didn't get anywhere. I
didn't have any idea what to do. Reading help-files helps and familiar
UI also helps, but gameplay is totally different.

It is almost like comparing Nethack and Angband. ToME is further away
from Angband than Moria.

Timo Pietilä
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

"pete mack" <pmac360@hotmail.com> writes:
> Though I left out one thing: do the Bree town quest after killing your
> naga, to get a little ready cash for travelling. (You probably need to
> visit the scroll shop...)

I always just sell anything redundant, kill a few townspeople for a bit
of extra cash, buy a bow, arrows and cure light wounds, and then do the
Bree quest first.

Keep some money on you so the rogues will teleport away when they hit
you :->

And run away a lot!

cheers, Rich.

--
rich walker | Shadow Robot Company | rw@shadow.org.uk
technical director 251 Liverpool Road |
need a Hand? London N1 1LX | +UK 20 7700 2487
www.shadow.org.uk/products/newhand.shtml
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.roguelike.angband (More info?)

Neil Stevens wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Sep 2005 17:27:55 -0700, pete mack wrote:
> > (The Barrow Downs is a waste of time.)
>
> Not for a beginner, not on your life. For someone who's NOT going to be
> winning the game for a month or so, random quests in the Barrow-downs are
> a low-risk, high-reward proposition. Once you're good enough to start
> getting late in the plot, the risks start to catch up with the rewards,
> but for a ToME beginner who's not going to get that far to begin with,
> especially one playing some sort of warrior, a few random quests are great.


Followup on ToME being easy to start if you play Archer... Played my
usual Petty Dwar Eru worshipper.

I did an experiment with town quests. Do just town quests, enter no
dungeons.
See how far you can go.

Result:
Clev 28. (3 shots/round with lt xbow)
Total enemies defeated: 165(!)
Total quests completed: 5 (no wolves quest in Lothlorien)

Rewards:
+Rbase using Amulet+armor.
+SI
+Glamdring. (quest reward)
-No FA
Time elapsed: < 2 hours

Only scumming was for a pair of nagas in Bree, and the usual Lothlorien
ammo scumming.

It took 3 tries, because of some dumb tactical errors.

Without FA or !Speed I can't continue taking quests, unfortunately.
Otherwise I'd go ahead and kill eol & do the second undead quest.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

TRENDING THREADS

Latest posts

Moderators online

Share this page

COMPANY
RESOURCES
FOLLOW
Top Bottom