Tom's Hardware's Custom Core i9 De-Lidder

[Guest]

Delidding has become more and more popular, and tools to facilitate manipulation have emerged. Unfortunately (or not), Core i9 processors are very new, and we haven't found any tools available on the market.

Tom's Hardware's Custom Core i9 De-Lidder : Read more

 

[AndrewJacksonZA]

Hmmm... Taking inspiration from both the big X cross-bar and the fact that it's Skylake-X, I say "The X-inator!"

"Delid with me if you want to live!"
[video="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6z4yiq4_K8"][/video]

 

[Kridian]

Hmm, Firefox does not like your image carousel Tom's. Works with Opera & Chrome - no problem.

 

[SockPuppet]

It's BS that this needs to even be a thing in the first place. Intel management couldn't possibly get any dumber. What a <mod edit>.

<Moderator Warning: Watch your language on this site>

 

[doesitmatter]

Building on AndrewJacksonZA's idea to use the X in the name, I personally like "The Skylake-X-poser" (or more succinctly, "The X-poser"), since the idea is to expose the die.

 

[ElMojoMikeo]

There is usually some common sense attached to Intel decisions. Not always appreciated at the time but usually when you look back you can see why. As an example the XEON 2687W vs 3970X. Essentially the same processor the XEON eight cores and locked. The X processor six cores ( two disabled ) and unlocked. The reasoning behind the two disabled cores was clock speed increases on eight cores caused thermal problems.

At the time Intel were accused of doing this as a marketing strategy. Well it would appear that it was just good old common sense. Why did they remove the solder? It could be for any number of reasons.

We can safely say that Intel know exactly what they are doing, because they alone have all the information and data required to make such a decision. I would guess it caused a problem that outweighed the thermal benefits it offered.

I remember a previous thread ended up with some very expensive cooling solutions. I seem to remember some time ago someone was attempting to make a processor socket cooler. The processor pins made the normal contact with the metal in the socket holes and a ceramic under side that was actively cooled. The pins of course go all the way up to the processor die. The socket cooler was on the underside and a liquid AIO cooler fitted normally.

In theory this looked a good way to move forward. This would also avoid having to delid the processor. Why are there so few socket cooling solutions?

 

[silvermoongoddess]

Why have an X in the name? - Is it some 1960s-throwback-macho-thing? "Overclocker's CPU Upgrade Assistant" sounds good to me; if perhaps maybe a little long-winded.

 

[AgentLozen]

I'd love to see thermal benchmarks on a Skylake X that's been delidded.

 

[killerchickens]

How about "Crap TIM Removers".

 

[killerchickens]

There is usually some common sense attached to Intel decisions. Not always appreciated at the time but usually when you look back you can see why. As an example the XEON 2687W vs 3970X. Essentially the same processor the XEON eight cores and locked. The X processor six cores ( two disabled ) and unlocked. The reasoning behind the two disabled cores was clock speed increases on eight cores caused thermal problems.

At the time Intel were accused of doing this as a marketing strategy. Well it would appear that it was just good old common sense. Why did they remove the solder? It could be for any number of reasons.

We can safely say that Intel know exactly what they are doing, because they alone have all the information and data required to make such a decision. I would guess it caused a problem that outweighed the thermal benefits it offered.

I remember a previous thread ended up with some very expensive cooling solutions. I seem to remember some time ago someone was attempting to make a processor socket cooler. The processor pins made the normal contact with the metal in the socket holes and a ceramic under side that was actively cooled. The pins of course go all the way up to the processor die. The socket cooler was on the underside and a liquid AIO cooler fitted normally.

In theory this looked a good way to move forward. This would also avoid having to delid the processor. Why are there so few socket cooling solutions?

Yes I'm sure there is a good reason they use the worst thermal paste they can find too.

 

[Altherix]

There is usually some common sense attached to Intel decisions. Not always appreciated at the time but usually when you look back you can see why. As an example the XEON 2687W vs 3970X. Essentially the same processor the XEON eight cores and locked. The X processor six cores ( two disabled ) and unlocked. The reasoning behind the two disabled cores was clock speed increases on eight cores caused thermal problems.

At the time Intel were accused of doing this as a marketing strategy. Well it would appear that it was just good old common sense. Why did they remove the solder? It could be for any number of reasons.

We can safely say that Intel know exactly what they are doing, because they alone have all the information and data required to make such a decision. I would guess it caused a problem that outweighed the thermal benefits it offered.

I remember a previous thread ended up with some very expensive cooling solutions. I seem to remember some time ago someone was attempting to make a processor socket cooler. The processor pins made the normal contact with the metal in the socket holes and a ceramic under side that was actively cooled. The pins of course go all the way up to the processor die. The socket cooler was on the underside and a liquid AIO cooler fitted normally.

In theory this looked a good way to move forward. This would also avoid having to delid the processor. Why are there so few socket cooling solutions?

I use to think that too, but you apply logic to it and it doesn't make any sense other than a Big Business Strategy.

It is true that if you get soldering wrong, it can make the CPU unusable with time, using TIM is a better idea as it's more tolerant of mistakes and flaws in application. For run of the mill CPUs it makes perfect sense to use paste instead of soldering. On server CPUs, with 24/7 use a good thermal solution is necessary, so soldering is used, this is also why there's a premium on Intel server CPUs. 24/7 usage and warranty for normal use.

With this processor, we're talking, "Enthusiast's" you're already paying a premium for an unlocked processor to overclock, why not solder which IS the best thermal transfer solution and just charge a premium cost on top of that?

Big Business decision, "Enthusiast's" are going to push their CPU to the limits, so any flaws in the solder job will become apparent. This is a risk to the CPU manufacturer, having to warranty, "Enthusiast's" CPUs, putting in TIM means a real, "Enthusiast's" is going to delid the processor for the best thermal performance, thus voiding the warranty. Even if they don't, they don't have to deal with solder failure either, it's a win for them lose for the customer.

Enthusiasts, are a very small portion of the market, Intel isn't going to go broke soldering "Enthusiast's" CPUs and warranty them. This is just a big middle-finger to the "Enthusiasts" and plain greed, the only reason that makes sense.

 

[Ne0Wolf7]

Hey, i didnt realize thats all a deliding tool is... I have a haswell chip...... And a 3D printer.........
How did you guys mesure the processor? This would be a cool project, but I dont want to take my steel capiper to my PCB

 

[bit_user]

What I'm most curious to know is what a normal waterblock can do with either direct-die cooling or at least upgraded TIM.

Honestly, I don't care about anything that's not practical or economical enough to run indefinitely (e.g. liquid nitrogen, liquid helium, etc.).

 

[mattkiss]

On slide 20 it erroneously reads "We have applied Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut thermal paste instead of liquid metal." Conductonaut is a liquid metal thermal compound and matches the picture on the slide.

 

[wifiburger]

if i where intel i would silently switch to solder and laugh all the way to the bank since youll have to buy another one !

 

[kinggremlin]

There is usually some common sense attached to Intel decisions. Not always appreciated at the time but usually when you look back you can see why. As an example the XEON 2687W vs 3970X. Essentially the same processor the XEON eight cores and locked. The X processor six cores ( two disabled ) and unlocked. The reasoning behind the two disabled cores was clock speed increases on eight cores caused thermal problems.

At the time Intel were accused of doing this as a marketing strategy. Well it would appear that it was just good old common sense. Why did they remove the solder? It could be for any number of reasons.

We can safely say that Intel know exactly what they are doing, because they alone have all the information and data required to make such a decision. I would guess it caused a problem that outweighed the thermal benefits it offered.

I remember a previous thread ended up with some very expensive cooling solutions. I seem to remember some time ago someone was attempting to make a processor socket cooler. The processor pins made the normal contact with the metal in the socket holes and a ceramic under side that was actively cooled. The pins of course go all the way up to the processor die. The socket cooler was on the underside and a liquid AIO cooler fitted normally.

In theory this looked a good way to move forward. This would also avoid having to delid the processor. Why are there so few socket cooling solutions?

Don't waste your time posting anything open minded or remotely positive about Intel, because the readers here will just vote it down into Bolivia [sic, Mike Tyson], which the poorly configured forum here will hide unless a reader intentionally clicks on it just so they can vote you down some more. Automatic forum moderating should be limited to spam posts and off topic posts, not posts that fanboys don't like.

The most likely reason Intel is using TIM instead of soldering is to save money, both because the process is cheaper, and as you pointed out, there is a higher chance of damaging cores using solder, which should be 0% applying TIM. Intel's TIM is perfectly acceptable for anyone running their CPU's at stock clocks which would include everyone in industry and the vast majority of home users. Intel is not going to spend what would likely be millions of dollars to cater to statistically 0% of the market that wants to run their CPU's out of spec.

What has really shed unwanted light on the TIM (if you're Intel) is Skylake X, which appears to struggle dissipating heat at stock clocks. This is a direct result of AMD's release of Ryzen/Threadripper. Naive AMD followers figured competition from AMD would force Intel to drop prices. Intel didn't, and they aren't going to because they aren't interested in price wars. What they did instead was raise clock speeds through the roof for Skylake X to make them look faster vs AMD in review benchmarks. Basically Intel's version of AMD's Vega. Now with SL X running near its thermal limits, the TIM is struggling and everyone is wondering why Intel didn't use solder. The reason is that the TIM was fine for the clock speeds Intel likely had in mind when they originally were designing SL X, but the last minute knee jerk reaction to jack up clock speeds blew up in their face.

 

[DerekA_C]

I delided my 4790k by using a vice and painters tape to protect edges there is a youtube video demonstrating it and it worked like a freaking charm and I put said Thermal Grizzly Conductonaut on there and it dropped my temps by 25c so you tell me why I shouldn't delid. oh also my system is far more stable then before I can under volt even more then before. like 4.4ghz operating at 1.1v on said 4790k and I never go above 38c gaming and never go above 48c in intelburn on high setting.

 

[drajitsh]

Mr. Tisserand, 7900 is LCC die. Will the same tool work with a HCC die.

 

[ken.latta]

Tool name: Guillotine

 

[Wizerty]

Mr. Tisserand, 7900 is LCC die. Will the same tool work with a HCC die.

I'm not sure yet, SMD seems to be really close to glue on HCC so it will be even more difficult than LCC.
->If you don't push enough on IHS then glue will not crack and cpu won't be delided.
->If you push too much IHS will touch SMD and cpu die...
at a point if you don't have enough space you can't move enough without risk.

 

[dudmont]

Mr. Tisserand, 7900 is LCC die. Will the same tool work with a HCC die.

I'm not sure yet, SMD seems to be really close to glue on HCC so it will be even more difficult than LCC.
->If you don't push enough on IHS then glue will not crack and cpu won't be delided.
->If you push too much IHS will touch SMD and cpu die...
at a point if you don't have enough space you can't move enough without risk.

Using a screw to apply the force(to crack through the glue) though should allow you set up some sort of standard torque parameters, should it not?

 

[Vorador2]

Ummm "Tom does what Inteldon't" ok i'm bad with this.

But seriously, that you need to do this to a 1.000$ cpu to get reasonable temps at factory clock speed is a travesty.

 

[JackNaylorPE]

Not speaking to this CPU, just delidding in general. Made lotta sense for Ivy Bridge and i think Intel jumped the gun there, but as time has gone on, the attractiveness of delidding has waned in my eyes.

As for the reasons .... the simplest one from an engineering standpoint would be "why pay more to provide something that does not offer a return on the investment. Having the CPU / GPU run cooler seems to be a goal in and of itself these days. With Sandy bridge and older CPUs, I found myself being more concerned about temps than voltages. With Haswell and since have found myself, more often that not, hitting voltages I am not comfortable with before I hit temperatures that cause concern.

These days, at least with nVidia cards, when I'm adding water blocks, I'm doing it to reduce noise and for aesthetic reasons, not to eke more performance out of the card. With the card starting to throttle at 82C ... if the air cooler does 67C. I am not all that concerned about getting lower temps. On the CPU, I'm at low - mid 70s under my OC and VID is set about ~ 1.4, volts ... if I'm Intel maybe I don't want to be giving folks a reason to try 1.45 and 1.50v just because they have 65CC temps at 1.4v.

 

[dalauder]

It's BS that this needs to even be a thing in the first place. Intel management couldn't possibly get any dumber. What a <mod edit>

My thoughts exactly.

As cool as this article is...Why not obviate the need for all this by just buying Ryzen/Threadripper?

 

[beayn]

Why doesn't Intel use a better material to begin with?