Tom's SBM: The $1,500 Mainstream PC

[Pei-chen]

[citation][nom]Cleeve[/nom]I don't think so. Two 4850's should beat two 9800 GTs in Crysis quite handily...

[EDIT] Only comparison I could quickly find. THe 4850's win by a smidge but as AA increases the 4850s give the 9800 GTs a pounding:
http://www.tbreak.com/reviews/arti [...] genumber=3[EDIT][/citation]
One of the graphs showed 8800GT SLI as having four times the performance as 9800GT SLI.

 

[heltoupee]

[citation][nom]xsamitt[/nom]I'd Tend to agree ......Just Because the budget is mainstream Doesn't mean that any parts purchased within that Budget it.I think Dirt Mountain's build is more likely what I would build,Given the 1500 Budget.I also agree on testing for noise.A while Back I bought a Antec P180 and trust me ...It was anything but QUIET....Like the Company Stated.[/citation]

Yeah, I know. I got roped into buying that case because it was the nicest case I could afford that didn't look like something the Power Rangers would fight. It's loud. Even with all the fans on low. Unplugging the fan on the top helps.

 

[cleeve]

[citation][nom]malveaux[/nom]For the cost of $99 per card, versus $150+, they perform at nearly the same level which is why I mentioned it. [/citation]

You neglect to mention they perform at nearly the same level in one specific title, and with no AA applied.

In most titles, two 4850's will absolutely decimate two 9800 GTs, and when AA is applied that gap widens to canyon-like proportions...

 

[DXRick]

It is too bad you didn't show 2-3 different builds at the $1,500 price point, so that we can see the results of different choices.

For example:
(CPU Q9550 - +$134)
(Case Antec 900 - -$81)
(GPU HD4870 - -$111)
(mobo GIGABYTE GA-EP45-UD3R - -$56)

It would be great if we could see benchies for different CPU/GPU combos.

Thanks tho.

 

[cleeve]

[citation][nom]Pei-chen[/nom]One of the graphs showed 8800GT SLI as having four times the performance as 9800GT SLI.[/citation]

Ouch! Shows you can't other hardware sites.

From our own tests, you can look at a previous system builder marathon we've done with a Q6600 and two 8800 GTS cards... which are better than the 9800 GT. The Q6600 and 4850's absolutely killed 'em.

 

[cleeve]

[citation][nom]Wixman[/nom]Whoever wrote this story doesn't know what the heck he/she/it is doing. [/citation]

Heheh, well you are certainly entitled to your opinion, wether or not I personally find it flagrantly over-reactive...

I'd personally want two 4850's over a single 1GB 4870 for sure, if gaming is a goal.

As for the E8000 series CPUs as an option I think we covered that, you would have seen it if you read it...

...you DID read it before ranting, right?

 

[cleeve]

[citation][nom]DXrick[/nom]It is too bad you didn't show 2-3 different builds at the $1,500 price point, so that we can see the results of different choices.[/citation]

Now, that's a nifty idea. The only problem is if you change more than one component, (i.e. both the CPU and Graphics card) your comparison numbers mean a lot less because it's hard to see what's causing the performance disparity.

But it'd be cool to do a comparo of three systems using similarly priced CPUs or something. I'll keep it in mind, thanks!

 

[shortstuff_mt]

Has Tom's been in a cave not paying any attention to the advancements of new hard drives? Why anyone would put a previous generation, slow 500GB drive that costs $80 in a new build doesn't make any sense. The new 640GB drives are much faster due to the higher data density. They also cost less. I'd like to see the explanation on the HD choice.

At least they didn't use a tier-4 PSU this time around. The PSU choices in previous builder marathons have been a joke. I also think you can get a lot more performance out of $1,500. You can put together a build with the Q9550 and 4870x2 at the $1,500 price range that would send this rig packing with its tail between its legs.

 

[cleeve]

[citation][nom]shortstuff_mt[/nom]You can put together a build with the Q9550 and 4870x2 at the $1,500 price range that would send this rig packing with its tail between its legs.[/citation]

I guess you could, but that's why a Q9550 + 4870 X2 costs $350 more than a Q6600 + 2x 4850 cards. You can do a lot of things if you throw money at it.

As far as a 650 GB drive being 'much' faster, I think you might be exaggerating a tad...

 

[Shadow703793]

Good work. I don't know why people are complaining about the water cooling solution, I agree that a good air cooling would be sufficient but with a budget of $1500 why limit your self? (Plus, WC gives you bragging rights + low noise ). Again good choice on the PSU. Looks like some one got the message about PSUs. X38 is a bit dated but will be able to get the max OC out of the Q6600 and has two x16 sockets unlike the two x8 sockets in P45 when doing CrossFire.

 

[Shadow703793]

One more thing: Should have gotten the 640GB WD AAKS drives (or a 7200.11). Those drives are almost as fast as the old Raptors and it would not add too much money to the build.

 

[Wonderboss]

Dirtmountain's approximate build priced on Newegg
-Just under $1500 without mail-in rebates and shipping.
-And I think it would suck the headlights out of the articles build
as it blew by it.

LITE-ON 20X DVD±R DVD Burner Black SATA Model iHAS120-04
$20.99

Western Digital Caviar Black WD7501AALS 750GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive
$259.98
($129.99 each)

Palit AE=487x2+T34 Radeon HD 4870 X2 2GB 512-bit (256-bit x 2) GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported Video Card
-$20.00 Instant
$25.00 Mail-in Rebate

$549.99
$529.99

Patriot Viper 2GB (2 x 1GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1200 (PC2 9600) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model PVS22G9600ELKN

$157.98
($78.99 each)

GIGABYTE GA-EP45-UD3R LGA 775 Intel P45 ATX Intel Motherboard
$15.00 Mail-in Rebate

$118.99


Intel Core 2 Duo E8500 Wolfdale 3.16GHz LGA 775 65W Dual-Core Processor Model BX80570E8500

$189.99

Sunbeam CR-CCTF 120mm "Core Contact Freezer" CPU Cooler
-$5.00 Instant
$10.00 Mail-in Rebate

$39.99
$34.99


COOLER MASTER RC-690-KKN1-GP Black SECC/ ABS ATX Mid Tower Computer Case
COOLER MASTER Real Power Pro RS-750-ACAA-A1 750W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Certified CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC Power Supply

-$55.00 Instant
-$30.00 Combo
$30.00 Mail-in Rebate

$259.98
$174.98

Subtotal: $1,487.89

Shipping: $32.42

 

[shortstuff_mt]

I guess what I'm saying is I would gladly trade your water cooling and expensive case for a high-end air cooler and something like the Antec 900 and use that money to buy a better CPU and GPU.

I don't know if you'll read a competitors review, but The Tech Report puts together some great HD reviews. Have a read through some of them and you'll see that stating the drives are 'much' faster isn't far off:

http://techreport.com/articles.x/14380

I guess this was an interesting read, even if it was just to see what you wasted money on and put my own superior $1,500 build together.

 

[DXRick]

[citation][nom]Cleeve[/nom]I guess you could, but that's why a Q9550 + 4870 X2 costs $350 more than a Q6600 + 2x 4850 cards. You can do a lot of things if you throw money at it.[/citation]

But you could almost save that $350 by changing other components!

Case - Antec 900 (-$81)
CPU cooler - ZALMAN CNPS9700 (-$85)
HD - 1x WD6401AALS 640GB (-$85)
mobo - GIGABYTE GA-EP45-UD3R (-$56)

Total (-$307)

 

[RJ]

^Intel Core 2 Quad Q9550 Yorkfield 2.83GHz LGA 775 95W Quad-Core Processor Model BX80569Q9550
^ASUS EAH4850 TOP/HTDI/512M Radeon HD 4850 512MB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready CrossFire Supported Video Card - Retail (x2)
^Tuniq Tower 120 Universal CPU Cooler 120mm Cooling Fan and Fan Controller/Heatsink
^ASUS P5Q Deluxe LGA 775 Intel P45 Intel Motherboard
^Patriot Viper 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 1066 (PC2 8500) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model PVS24G8500ELKN
^OCZ EliteXStream OCZ800EXS 800W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC Power Supply
^Seagate Barracuda 7200.11 ST3500320AS 500GB 7200 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s Hard Drive - OEM (x2)
^Thermaltake Armor+MX VH8000BWS Black Aluminum / Steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case
^SAMSUNG 22X DVD±R DVD Burner with LightScribe Black SATA Model SH-S223Q

$1477.60 delivered!

I picked a modern 45nm quad core with a higher speed. I picked a P45 mobo....crossfire with PCIE 2.0 and 16 phase power. I picked DDR2-1066, higher OC capability, higher memory bandwidth. I picked a TT Armor case....lots of space, lots of ventilation... I've had mine for years and wouldn't dream of replacing it. I picked almost the same hard drives, but with 32mb cache....in single drive mode, they score very close to VelociRaptor's read speed...I have several of them. Tuniq Tower 120...why mess with watercooling when you can get high end air and more efficient CPU with the same $$?

I'm a little disappointed that even with $1500 burning a hole in your pocket, you went with the equivalent of 2nd hand parts! Why shoot for DDR2-800 when DDR2-1066 is priced so closely? Why go with X38 when P45 does the same stuff more efficiently? I'm willing to bet my parts will soundly beat your stuff, including being able to hit a higher stable OC.

 

[cleeve]

[citation][nom]DXrick[/nom]But you could almost save that $350 by changing other components!
[/citation]

But if you changed those components the Q6600 CPU and two 4550's would still be cheaper than a Q9550 and 4870 X2. It's a half dozen of one and six of the other.

Some folks value a nice case, and some value what a water cooling setup can do for overclocking. Some don't. No wrong or right there, people, just subjective decisions.

We were counting on the cooler to get us close to 4 GHz and the system didn't take us there; the CPU wasn't OC friendly, or you can go ahead and blame my lame OC skillz, whichever you prefer.

But that doesn't mean that a good water cooling setup isn't worth it's weight in gold if you have OC friendly parts. Based on the feedback you guys gave us in the last three marathons (feel free to check them out), you guys wanted more of an OC focus. So that's what we did.

It's real easy to second guess choices after the dust settles and the system didn't go as far as you'd prefer. Could we have made diffrent choices? Sure! Does that mean the choices we made were the wrong ones? As much as many of you act like it's the worst system possible, it performed well. I can easily justify any of the components in this build.

You like a cheaper case, buy one, save the cash! You want to swap CPUs, go to town. We're not saying this is the only possible $1500 value configuration guys, and we're not suggesting that every other choice is crap. We're showing you one possible combination of parts, and then we bench and overclock it so you can see what it can do.

 

[jthorn]

My 2 cents after 2 years of surfing Tom's. . . From reading these posts I learned that a mainstream PC is kind of like a good looking women. Their qualities are relative and the final verdict is up to each individual.

I loved the article and I agree ATI 4850 GPU is definately mainstream and was a good selection. While I agree that Q6600 is the trailing end of today's mainstream, I cannot agree that water cooling was ever mainstream. Water cooling has always been elite and high-end. I will get stomped for saying it but even overclocking is enthusiast - not mainstream. Furthermore, crossfire and SLI are not mainstream although I recognize they have a huge following on websites like Tom's. Water-cooling, overclocking, crossfire, raid arrays, are trouble for most who do not possess good tech skills (should I add Vista to this list?) Lastly, P45 is now the mainstream chipset and this should hold true for 1 more year. P45 solves most issues for nearly every mainstream user, offers the most bang for the buck, and even satisfies most enthusiast demands without sacrificing performance (including overclocking and crossfire). I give credit to the other chipsets, X38, X48, P35, etc. all have their value, but they are not today's mainstream.

Cheers Tom's and readers for great content!

 

[shortstuff_mt]

While I agree that component choice is subjective, choices like a previous generation HD is a red flag to me. Maybe a little more research should have been put into the components to maximize performance.

It just seems like a site like Tom's should be a little more up to speed.

 

[cleeve]

[citation][nom]shortstuff_mt[/nom]While I agree that component choice is subjective, choices like a previous generation HD is a red flag to me. [/citation]

As much as it might be your opinion that we're wrong, I don't think it was a bad choice at all. We saved a few dollars, and hard drive prices on the 650's dropped since we specd the systems out.

We can't spec and build these things in a week, it takes a few weeks to put the sbm together; spec out the systems, have the parts shipped, assemble, test, overclock, re-test, etc. This isn't a two-day turnaround, but prices can change that fast for sure.


And for all your concern, what real-world impact on performance do you think two diffrent drives would have made? I'd bet you'd see *no* diffrence whatsoever in any applications or games, and perhaps a couple percent diffrence in the synthetic benches.

That in mind, I find it hard to be as concerned as you are with the drive choice, especially when ours are cheaper.

 

[jerreece]

[citation][nom]JeanLuc[/nom]I can see why you wanted to use a water cooling http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_cooling kit so that you got the best possible overclock from the CPU but water cooling is hardly ‘mainstream’ which is what I thought this system builder marathon was all about.[/citation]

I can't agree more. When I first saw the price of $140 for the CPU Cooler my first thought was, "Good God." Mainstream is not spending $140 on a CPU cooler alone, let alone water cooling. Most average guys either can't afford water cooling, or wouldn't have the foggiest idea on how to do it.

Especially when you can get a perfectly 'mainstream' CPU cooler (a Tom's Recommended unit at that!) Xigmatek HDT-S1283 for $35-40!! And you can still OC that Q6600 without fear of uber hot temperatures.

 

[squiZZ]

[citation][nom]dirtmountain[/nom]E7200 - $1184850 - $160Biostar G31 - $50Rosewill case - $20Antec PSU - $30 DVD - $21Cooler Xigma SD964 - $26HD - $42RAM - $30$497 and yes a cheap mobo, small HD, cheap RAM etc, but in terms of bang for the buck it would perform. If using rebates and/or combo deals you could upgrade quite a bit and stay within budget, this build uses no combos or rebates.[/citation]

what antec psu would power this for $30. However an antec earthwatts 500 is still cheap at 50.

 

[Sei]

I think it was a very logical multipurpose build for an enthusiast site like tom's hardware at 1500$(i found few of the previous builds illogical). There are so many choises for a budget of 1500$. Whether or not you are going to buy an expensive case, bigger hard drive, aircooling instead of watercooling, better cpu-gpu and so many other. You can never build the perfect all around system for everyone.
A lot of us at tom's wouldn't even consult an article like this for making our builds, we would take into account benchmarks, our budget and what we want out of the system. For those of us this article is more entertaining, ofcourse there still is information that we could put to good use.

 

[doomsdaydave11]

Not that great of a system for the money compared to your usual builds for the price. Firstly, why would you get 2 Seagate 7200.10 drives, when the 7200.11's have been out for several months, and are very fast. Right now the 500GB 7200.11 can be found for $70 shipped. Second, I don't like the choice of an X38 board in a midrange build, when an newer P45 would have done fine. An ASUS P5Q Pro is $105 AR shipped, and will be plenty for a medium-heavy overclock, and good for the CrossFire. For the RAM, I dunno why $90 was spent when G.Skill's popular 2x2GB DDR2-800 kit can be had for $60. $180 for a case in a midrange build is ridiculous. A $80 case would have been plenty if you added some good cooling yourself- like a few Scythe Slipstreams for $9 which have a CFM of 110! The water cooling also seemed too much (in my opinion), in a midrange system, I think a $25 Arctic Cooling Freezer 7 Pro would have easily been suffice. After my improvements to the build, I was able to get it down to $1125... which is a significant difference from $1422.
Just my two sense. I love these System Builder Marathons, though. Keep up the good work TH.

 

[Guest]

agree, how many people would consider watercooling and dual graphics card as mainstream?

 

[cruiseoveride]

The graphs should include the $4,500.00 PC as well to see how much you are getting for 3x the cost.