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In message <4206bb1d$0$941$626a14ce@news.free.fr>, Orpheus
<orpheus.13@ERASERHEADfree.fr> writes:
>"James Coupe" <james@zephyr.org.uk> a écrit dans le message de news:
>J2u8b7FyDkBCFwZE@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk...
>> For instance, Robin Withers and Catherine Du Bois (group 3) combo well
>> for an interesting small Ventrue Obfuscate deck - impossibly in [1/2].
>
>Allow me to restate this.
If you're going to restate it, restate it. If you're going to write
something different, write something different.
Please don't confuse one for the other.
🙁
>Catherine fits in Ventrue decks 2/3, yes.
Sure, but differently from the style of deck suggested.
> Robin
>doesn't have For, so she fits better in Obf/Pre/Dom decks,
Which is a departure for the Ventrue at that size, providing
reinforcement for the options that Catherine provides.
>where Pre could
>be used for S:CE for example. This type of deck is possible either in 2/3 or
>3/4, with nearly equel opportunities as of now.
No, the decks suggested have strong possibilities for differences.
Other than Catherine, the only Ventrue with Obfuscate for a [2/3] crypt
are 9, three 10s and an 11. (Suhailah, Marcus Vitel, Lucinde Alastor,
Queen Anne and Arika.)
The point here is that having a 4 and 5 provides a significantly
different base - possibly more so as we see more in group 4.
>> At the other end, Hazimel provides a completely weird but powerful
>> Ravnos.
>
>Love the "completely weird" part.
He *is* completely weird. Which provides strong possibilities for new
deck themes.
He has a number of interesting discipline options - he's the only
vampire capable of playing Nightmare Curse at superior, for a start,
which is a plus. Well timed, it's a strong card and, for my money,
often stronger than Sensory Deprivation - it's cheaper in terms of
blood, and slightly more flexible if you're in a low ally/retainer
environment.
Ravnos with Dementation - he's the only one. A number of cute options
(e.g. Voice of Madness for defending those Sensory Deprivations or
Nightmare Curses). And the discipline set is potentially very useful,
well deployed.
>> There's a solid clutch of Fortitude on 3/4 Brujah -
>
>A better in 2/3 with Brujah / !Brujah, not to mention Jimmy Dunn. Been
>there, seen it.
!Brujah != Brujah. Decks that use Brujah can, if they choose, be quite
different from decks using !Brujah through use of titles, clan toys and
so on. You can play them the same, only heading for cel/pot bashing
(say), but you can also make them quite different. Brujah allies, for
instance, can set them apart.
However, in [2/3] for Brujah with Fortitude, in [2] you get two
vampires. Brachah has no Potence, making her a different choice to a
[3/4] set. The only other [2] Brujah with Fortitude is Gwendolyn, who
is often regarded as a poor choice. Certainly, Gwendolyn is a very
*different* choice from what [3/4] potentially presents.
"Been there, seen it" might apply if you cast your net wide enough to
say "Well, I can't play the decks this brings, but I can play a
different deck with a different clan and it uses a similar theme." But
that's hardly new to the game. A Malkvian Group 3 deck is sort of the
same as a !Malkavian Group 2 deck (in the manner you use above), yet you
seem to malign only Group 4 for it, which seems strange.
>> Count Germaine, Jaroslav and Maxwell, say, though the first two also
>> have obfuscate providing another interesting option. (How many Brujah
>> are there with obf/for outside Groups 3 and 4? Zero.)
>
>Brujah with Obf OR For certainly open ideas, although Obf doesn't offer the
>best synergy for them IMO (they WANT to be seen most of the time, and if
>they use weapons they only really need Cel).
The Obf is potentially strong for the Disguised Weapon possibilities.
You want Cel, sure, but getting weapons out can be hard, even with
Fortitude to make the actions affordable. (That is, to allow you to
have spare actions.) If you get blocked on an equip, the card goes away
which is very painful indeed. Hence DW can be a strong asset to such
decks, when in need.
A smattering of Obfuscate is not necessarily typical for a standard
combat deck, but it can be useful.
For instance, a little stealth can be a strong asset as a surprise -
"He'll rush me with <x>, I'll block with <y>, they'll fight" is easily
disrupted by a casual tossing in of a little stealth. If you need to
move for a speedier oust, it can help you get pool damage done before
the other vampires die, or to get a diablerie through.
Additionally, if you're not going for standard combat, it provides a
great set of possibilities - Brujahs with Obf/For can stealth multiple
actions (stealth + Freak Drive). Thinking along "they WANT to be seen
most of the time" is certainly true for many [1/2] or [2/3] Brujah. But
what options does [3/4] present? Wedging them into the same mould as
previous decks means that *of course* you've seen it all before, but
that's because you're only looking for the same things.
>Vampires with Obf / For / some
>Brujah disciplines can have some interests. I'm not convinced right now that
>Brujahs + Obf + For doesn't mean anything interesting for scopes other than
>statistics.
There's a number of potentially interesting decks there. Powerful?
Possibly.
>So let's forget about these "staple vampires" in the rest of the discussion,
>although I repeat : if it's the only / main interest in getting these new
>vampires, I don't see the interest at all. The interest lies in different,
>new possibilities. The necessity of the "staples" is just that : a
>necessity. If you need / want the other vamps, of course.
>
>Now consider these G4 vampires :
>
>- Bruce de Guy : would have fit perfectly with his G2 cousins,
Putting more things in Group 2 leads to Dial-A-Crypt. If your argument
is that he should be in group 2 instead, you have to account for that.
>and I don't
>think it would have been more "über-cryptic" than Arika / Marcus and
>friends. Alone, he is useless ; with new companions, it's G2 all over again.
Sure, any vampire in a new group is "useless" when you need to round out
the rest of the group.
However, you don't actually know what Group 4 is going to provide for
the Ventrue Antitribu. Why is it Group 2 all over again when it's not
even been printed? Stop and think. Group 3 of the Camarilla is *not*
Group 1 of the Camarilla all over again. What could Group 4 of the
Ventrue Antitribu be? Black Hand elders? Anarchist neonates?
Completely different discipline spread? These are all possible. With
only 1 Group 4 Ventrue Antitribu, it's hard to judge!
Bruce, interestingly, has anti-vote tech but, unlike group 2, it's
useful for vote-push. Gustav is slow for taking out titles, for
instance, and Quentin (though potentially more flexible) isn't that
great. A new and interesting avenue for the Ventrue Antitribu to
explore? Looks like it from here.
>- Giangaleazzo is yet another Lasombra with Pre ; Prince, great, and nice
>special, agreed ; still, a known combo that will require some friends for
>him and copy existing strategies.
Well, given the Lasombra have good political strengths, one could regard
titled vampires and a splash of Presence as part of staple vampires.
However, there's nothing to say that Group 4 Lasombra won't try
different things. Just because he *could* be accompanied by friends
with the same disciplines, why is he going to be? Again, you're
condemning based on cards which haven't been printed.
There's nothing to say that he won't be accompanied by some quite
different Lasombra and that he'll be one of the few vampires like the
old combo. There's a whole group to be printed!
>- Shawnda Dorit : should pay Sela a copyright or something. So !Brujahs
>officially have Obt as an out-of-clan ?
True, quite similar. However, Priscus on such a small vampire - she is
the smallest Priscus - is an interesting quirk. The next smallest (7s)
are Gisela, who's in a hard clan to use, Korah and Kendrick. Whereas
here you have a small Priscus in a potentially useful position - the
commonality of Presence means it's quite plausible to build a strong
deck heading for pro-vote.
>- Ryder, Spider : new specials, ok ; still, the "usual" fight combos for
>these clans. Why not some Tha instead ? Or whatever...
Specials provide unique-ness in and of themselves - one which you get
with the vampire, and don't need to spend library slots on.
However, Spider is clearly aimed at a different area to a lot of Gangrel
Antitribu. Spider is ani for CEL PRO. Other Gangrel Antitribu with
cel/for? Maria Stone, who's cel obf pro FOR (5), and so obviously City
Gangrel. Harry Reese is cel obf FOR PRO (6) and a minor special -
again, City Gangrel. Ditto Zachary.
Spider provides CEL to the *Country* Gangrel Antitribu, whilst being
possibly useful in a City Gangrel deck (though no Obf).
With Ryder, again, you could regard combative disciplines as being a
useful staple. Sure, he could have had different disciplines and maybe
he should've done, from a diversity point of view.
But this is looking rather different from Group 4 being a copy of Group
2.
--
James Coupe "Why do so many talented people turn out to be sexual
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D deviants? Why can't they just be normal like me and
EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 look at internet pictures of men's cocks all day?"
13D7E668C3695D623D5D -- www.livejournal.com/users/scarletdemon/
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