Question Trying to boot from a Macrium Reflect Clone Image (Win 11) ?

[MC Freak]

As we have an upcoming project involving 32-bit Win XP legacy software, we recently purchased an old Dell M4700. As it came to us with Win 11 installed and contained some pretty useful utilities - i.e., Office 2019 and Photo Shop 2020 - one of the first things that I wanted to accomplish is something that I've done with our Mac machines for several years now; namely, clone the system drive to our external USB HDD dock (the "target disk").

With this in mind, I downloaded Macrium Free Reflect 8 (MFR8) and cloned the system drive in the old M4700. The MFR8 utility indicated that the cloning process was successful, so I changed the boot order in the M4700's BIOS to boot from the external USB HDD dock. As the machine successfully booted into Win 11 - much more slowly than it does from its internal system SSD - I assumed that the cloned "disk" was functional.

After I returned to the M4700's BIOS and changed the boot order back to normal again ... very long story short, the M4700 never booted up normally again and - after many hours of trying this reset method and that reset method - the machine no longer displays any video of any kind. The M4700 passes the Dell display/screen test, so the utter lack of a video signal to both the display and the HDMI port strongly indicates that either the motherboard or the [separate] dedicated GPU card has failed. I'm thinking it's the GPU, but, in the interest of time, I eventually pushed the M4700 aside to protect my sanity. As I still want at least one known good PC in the office, we drove out to a Best Buy box store yesterday and picked up a PC laptop that was both on sale and had the most connectivity, a Dell Inspiron 7630.

Despite the M4700 debacle, my years using Mac equipment has taught me that it's good practice to clone system discs, and the new Dell 7630 is no exception ... but, before I attempt that, I want to test the cloned Win 11 disk image that I wrote about in the second paragraph. With this in mind, I hooked up the external USB dock (our normal clone target disk dock) to the new Dell and brought up its BIOS menu. Unfortunately, the "Boot Configuration" in BIOS isn't automatically listing the external USB dock as a boot option, so I exited BIOS and started Win 11 to investigate further. Win 11 is indeed "seeing" our USB dock, so I used the system tools in the OS to verify the disk setup of the HDD that is storing the M4700's clone image and, more specifically, that the "target disk" in the aforementioned M4700 clone task was set up with a GUID partition table and the NTFS file system, which it was. As an aside, this means that all of the disks I'll be writing about herein are formatted in the same way.

So despite my repeated efforts, the BIOS in the new Dell 7630 isn't seeing the external USB dock as a boot option, so I dug into it a bit further. In the new machine's BIOS, there was an option in the BIOS Boot Configuration menu called "Add Boot Option." So I clicked on that choice and a box called "File Explorer" appeared. Inside of that box are several [for lack of a better phrase] "bracketed path strings" and one of them, in particular, contained the acronym "USB," which indicates that the new Dell 7630's BIOS is at least seeing the external USB dock, but, once again, isn't seeing it as a boot option. As an aside, I turned everything off, disconnected the external USB dock that we store all of our cloned images on, and accessed the new Dell's BIOS again. This time around, there were fewer bracketed path strings in the aforementioned File Explorer box and, more to the point, none of them contained any mention of the acronym "USB."

I apologize for the lack of a screen shot or two to clarify things, but I couldn't figure out how to add them without image hosting, which we don't have access to, but, if anyone who's worked with cloned PC drive images has experienced anything like this, I'd appreciate your thoughts on what might be done to get our one and only cloned PC disk image to boot like it should.

Thank you for the help.

 

[USAFRet]

At the end of the clone process, you need to physically disconnect the old drive, and allow the system to boot from the new by itself.
Not just change the boot order.

 

[MC Freak]

I appreciate the post, but I employed a written guide to perform the clone process, so let's agree to disagree.

 

[USAFRet]

I appreciate the post, but I employed a written guide to perform the clone process, so let's agree to disagree.

And here is a different "written guide", tested and refined over many many trials.

(my own work, in collaboration with others)

-----------------------------
Specific steps for a successful clone operation:
-----------------------------
Verify the actual used space on the current drive is significantly below the size of the new SSD
Both drives must be the same partitioning scheme, either MBR or GPT
Download and install Macrium Reflect (or Samsung Data Migration, if a Samsung target SSD)
If you are cloning from a SATA drive to PCIe/NVMe, you may need to install the relevant driver for this new NVMe/PCIe drive.
Power off
Disconnect ALL drives except the current C and the new SSD
Power up

Verify the system boots with ONLY the current "C drive" connected.
If not, we have to fix that first.

Run the Macrium Reflect (or Samsung Data Migration)
Select ALL the partitions on the existing C drive

[Ignore this section if using the SDM. It does this automatically]
If you are going from a smaller drive to a larger, by default, the target partition size will be the same as the Source. You probably don't want that
You can manipulate the size of the partitions on the target (larger)drive
Click on "Cloned Partition Properties", and you can specify the resulting partition size, to even include the whole thing
[/end ignore]

Click the 'Clone' button
Wait until it is done
When it finishes, power off
Disconnect ALL drives except for the new SSD. This is not optional.
This is to allow the system to try to boot from ONLY the SSD

(swapping cables is irrelevant with NVMe drives, but DO disconnect the old drive for this next part)
Swap the SATA cables around so that the new drive is connected to the same SATA port as the old drive
Power up, and verify the BIOS boot order
If good, continue the power up

It should boot from the new drive, just like the old drive.
Maybe reboot a time or two, just to make sure.

If it works, and it should, all is good.

Later, reconnect the old drive and wipe all partitions on it.
This will probably require the commandline diskpart function, and the clean command.

Ask questions if anything is unclear.
-----------------------------

 

[MC Freak]

I appreciate the helpful guidance, sir. I will copy it and give it a very careful read.👍

 

[MC Freak]

Ask questions if anything is unclear.

Referencing your written Cloning Guideline...

Q1: Does "SDM" stand for Samsung Data Migration?

Q2: When you write "C," are you referencing the main system ("source") drive?

Q3: Our "target drives" are big SATA HDDs. Does this come into play in any way when cloning either SATA SSDs or PCie NVMe M.2 SSD system "source drives"?

Thanks again for the help.

 

[TerryLaze]

As we have an upcoming project involving 32-bit Win XP legacy software, we recently purchased an old Dell M4700. As it came to us with Win 11 installed and contained some pretty useful utilities - i.e., Office 2019 and Photo Shop 2020 - one of the first things that I wanted to accomplish is something that I've done with our Mac machines for several years now; namely, clone the system drive to our external USB HDD dock (the "target disk").

Just saying, but as it seems that you are talking about a professional environment...licenses for software do not transfer to new users.
If there is ever an audit of the company you will have to come up with invoices for that software.

For the rest of your issues,
Windows does not boot up from usb if it's just a cloned disc or an image of a clone, you can make it boot up from a VHD image you created in windows if you clone the disc (or the image you already have) to that vhd, that vhd can then be anywhere you want including a usb, you just have to make a windows boot menu item to point to the VHD file.
Search fo the term 'windows to go'

I apologize for the lack of a screen shot or two to clarify things, but I couldn't figure out how to add them without image hosting, which we don't have access to, but, if anyone who's worked with cloned PC drive images has experienced anything like this, I'd appreciate your thoughts on what might be done to get our one and only cloned PC disk image to boot like it should.

imgur.com is pretty popular and still free to use.

 

[USAFRet]

Referencing your written Cloning Guideline...

Q1: Does "SDM" stand for Samsung Data Migration?

Q2: When you write "C," are you referencing the main system ("source") drive?

Q3: Our "target drives" are big SATA HDDs. Does this come into play in any way when cloning either SATA SSDs or PCie NVMe M.2 SSD system "source drives"?

Thanks again for the help.

1. Yes.

2. Yes.

3. Only for the capacity and partition issue, which is mentioned above.

 

[MC Freak]

More questions for @USAFRet ...

To preface, as our old M4700 laptop is presently inoperative, we are now attempting to clone the main system (C) drive in the new Dell 7630 laptop - employing your guideline, which has been reworded [only slightly] for our better understanding ... our comments are in brackets.

Step 6: "Disconnect ALL drives except the current C [main system] and the new SSD [which doesn't apply to our situation];

Step 8: "Verify the system with ONLY the current "C Drive" connected. If not, that has to be fixed;

Question: We're not cloning to a new SSD. Instead, we're cloning to a large SATA USB HDD that's powered by a dock - in case we need to replace the PCIe NVMe M.2 "gum stick" SSD that's in the new Dell 7630 in the future. The wording in Step 6 (above) has me wondering about a second drive, which I assume is the USB HDD in our case, being connected ... but Step 8, on the other hand, contains the word "ONLY," which leads me to believe that only the main system drive - the gum stick SSD in our case - is supposed to be connected?

Would you please clarify this ?

 

[TerryLaze]

More questions for @USAFRet ...

To preface, as our old M4700 laptop is presently inoperative, we are now attempting to clone the main system (C) drive in the new Dell 7630 laptop - employing your guideline, which has been reworded [only slightly] for our better understanding ... our comments are in brackets.

Step 6: "Disconnect ALL drives except the current C [main system] and the new SSD [which doesn't apply to our situation];

Step 8: "Verify the system with ONLY the current "C Drive" connected. If not, that has to be fixed;

Question: We're not cloning to a new SSD. Instead, we're cloning to a large SATA USB HDD that's powered by a dock - in case we need to replace the PCIe NVMe M.2 "gum stick" SSD that's in the new Dell 7630 in the future. The wording in Step 6 (above) has me wondering about a second drive, which I assume is the USB HDD in our case, being connected ... but Step 8, on the other hand, contains the word "ONLY," which leads me to believe that only the main system drive - the gum stick SSD in our case - is supposed to be connected?

Would you please clarify this ?

His guide is for replacing the main drive with the clone drive, if you are on a multi drive system the main drive does not always contain the boot files, hence you have to make sure that the system can boot with only the main drive before cloning it, you are just making a backup image of the main drive so you don't have to worry about any of that.

 

[MC Freak]

Okay, so I've managed to clone the main system "gum stick" PCIe NVMe (Win 11) SSD in our new Dell 7630 PC laptop.

As I understand things, at this point, the external USB HDD that I used as the "target disk" in the Macrium Reflect 8 (MR8) cloning process is only bootable if it's installed in the Dell 7630 as the main drive. Considering that the Dell 7630 is barely thick enough to accommodate the HDMI port that it came with, this is clearly an impossibility ... so the question is exactly how one would make use of this new cloned image - in case I need to "restore" it? For example, would it be possible to - with the appropriate hardware in place - employ Macrium Reflect 8 to "clone the clone"? Put another way, the new Dell 7630, out of physical necessity, employs gum stick SSDs for internal storage. Does anyone know if I can use some sort of dock that works with these tiny PCIe NVMe SSDs to "move" the cloned image presently on our external USB HDD to one of these new-fangled gum stick SSDs?

 

[Lafong]

Not quite following this.

You refer to "cloned image".

Clones are clones; images are images. Two different critters.

Images of bootable drives are files that are largely useless until they are "restored"....a formal process in Macrium. Images can be saved on an external, but would then typically be restored to an internal, with would then be bootable. Two steps: make the image file; restore it at some future time. Image files can be moved around and copied like pictures of your cat.

Clones are typically from one internal to another drive, with the target drive being immediately bootable. One step. No restore. No intervening file.

Not sure what you have done.

 

[USAFRet]

More questions for @USAFRet ...

To preface, as our old M4700 laptop is presently inoperative, we are now attempting to clone the main system (C) drive in the new Dell 7630 laptop - employing your guideline, which has been reworded [only slightly] for our better understanding ... our comments are in brackets.

Step 6: "Disconnect ALL drives except the current C [main system] and the new SSD [which doesn't apply to our situation];

Step 8: "Verify the system with ONLY the current "C Drive" connected. If not, that has to be fixed;

Question: We're not cloning to a new SSD. Instead, we're cloning to a large SATA USB HDD that's powered by a dock - in case we need to replace the PCIe NVMe M.2 "gum stick" SSD that's in the new Dell 7630 in the future. The wording in Step 6 (above) has me wondering about a second drive, which I assume is the USB HDD in our case, being connected ... but Step 8, on the other hand, contains the word "ONLY," which leads me to believe that only the main system drive - the gum stick SSD in our case - is supposed to be connected?

Would you please clarify this ?

If not to immediately replace the existing internal drive with another, then what you should be writing to that external HDD is an Image. Not a clone.

An Image is good for safekeeping, for later. You can then apply that Image to a new replacement drive in time of need.
And an Image lets you have full use of the rest of the external HDD.
A clone does not.

A clone is good for changing drives right now.
For instance, going from a 500GB to a 1TB.

 

[USAFRet]

To preface, as our old M4700 laptop is presently inoperative, we are now attempting to clone the main system (C) drive in the new Dell 7630 laptop - employing your guideline, which has been reworded [only slightly] for our better understanding ... our comments are in brackets.

Step 6: "Disconnect ALL drives except the current C [main system] and the new SSD [which doesn't apply to our situation];

Step 8: "Verify the system with ONLY the current "C Drive" connected. If not, that has to be fixed;

This is to verify proper operation with only the supposed OS drive.

Often, when there is more than one physical drive in a system, the small boot partition ends up on the other drive.
The system won't boot without both drives present.

That needs to be verified and fixed, if needed.

 

[TerryLaze]

Okay, so I've managed to clone the main system "gum stick" PCIe NVMe (Win 11) SSD in our new Dell 7630 PC laptop.

As I understand things, at this point, the external USB HDD that I used as the "target disk" in the Macrium Reflect 8 (MR8) cloning process is only bootable if it's installed in the Dell 7630 as the main drive. Considering that the Dell 7630 is barely thick enough to accommodate the HDMI port that it came with, this is clearly an impossibility ... so the question is exactly how one would make use of this new cloned image - in case I need to "restore" it? For example, would it be possible to - with the appropriate hardware in place - employ Macrium Reflect 8 to "clone the clone"? Put another way, the new Dell 7630, out of physical necessity, employs gum stick SSDs for internal storage. Does anyone know if I can use some sort of dock that works with these tiny PCIe NVMe SSDs to "move" the cloned image presently on our external USB HDD to one of these new-fangled gum stick SSDs?

Yes, what you describe is the way to do it.
It is called restoring just as lafong said.
You can get an nvme to sata adaptor, or even one that works over usb,although the usb one would be pretty slow.
This is just for reference, I have no idea which one is a good brand model or anything else, this is just to show you what you are looking for.

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[Bob.B]

Okay, so I've managed to clone the main system "gum stick" PCIe NVMe (Win 11) SSD in our new Dell 7630 PC laptop.

As I understand things, at this point, the external USB HDD that I used as the "target disk" in the Macrium Reflect 8 (MR8) cloning process is only bootable if it's installed in the Dell 7630 as the main drive. Considering that the Dell 7630 is barely thick enough to accommodate the HDMI port that it came with, this is clearly an impossibility ... so the question is exactly how one would make use of this new cloned image - in case I need to "restore" it? For example, would it be possible to - with the appropriate hardware in place - employ Macrium Reflect 8 to "clone the clone"? Put another way, the new Dell 7630, out of physical necessity, employs gum stick SSDs for internal storage. Does anyone know if I can use some sort of dock that works with these tiny PCIe NVMe SSDs to "move" the cloned image presently on our external USB HDD to one of these new-fangled gum stick SSDs?

One way to do this is to boot the rescue media that you made with macrium that you have on a flash stick.

Then select the hdd as the source and the gum stick as the destination.

 

[MC Freak]

Yes, what you describe is the way to do it.
It is called restoring just as lafong said.
You can get an nvme to sata adaptor, or even one that works over usb,although the usb one would be pretty slow.
This is just for reference, I have no idea which one is a good brand model or anything else, this is just to show you what you are looking for.

Thank you @TerryLaze .

I hope that I'm not repeating too much, but here's what I've been doing for a few years now. As a long time Mac user, I've been using Carbon Copy Cloner (CCC), a Mac only utility, to clone our system drives to an external USB HDD dock. In case of a failed system drive, which has happened to us more than once, we simply plug the USB HDD dock into the affected Mac machine and boot from the clone drive. It's really as easy as that.

After more than 12 years of being away from PCs, I have a project involving old 32-bit Win XP software that is no longer supported. It's a long story, involving more than one PC, but we now have a new Dell 7630 PC laptop here. Being used to cloning in the macOS environment - and not knowing much about the reliability of NVMe PCIe M.2 "gum stick" SSDs - I assumed that it was good practice to clone the gum stick SSD in the new Dell 7630 before doing anything else ... but, now that I'm learning the differences between cloning in the Windows environment and cloning in the macOS environment, I'm not so sure.

An Image is good for safekeeping, for later. You can then apply that Image to a new replacement drive in time of need.
And an Image lets you have full use of the rest of the external HDD.
A clone does not.

I just examined the external drive that we've been using to store Mac system drive clone copies rendered by CCC. There was extra space on it - storage space not used for our CCC clone copies - so I used that space to create a new exFAT partition. Afterward, I copied and pasted a couple of FLAC audio files into the new exFAT partition to test my theory regarding unused space - I was able to play said audio files with no issues. Referencing the bolded part of the quote (above) ... Having the ability to play back those audio files indicates to me that, unlike a target disk in a Macrium Reflect clone scenario, one can "...use the rest of the external HDD" when CCC is used to create clone copies.

I'm not trying to start anything with any Windows or Macrium Reflect fans, I'm simply trying to explain why the differences between CCC (macOS) clone copies and Macrium Reflect 8 (Win 11) clone copies have thrown me way off. Specifically, I'm still getting used to not being able to boot from a clone copy stored on an external drive and not being able to employ unused storage space on the Macrium Reflect 8 (MR8) clone target disk. At this point, I trust that you understand some of my "rookie" MR8 questions.

As ever, If I'm misunderstanding something, I'd be more than happy to read all about it. After all, even an old overseas vet like myself should be willing to learn new things.

Thank you for the help.

 

[Lafong]

The Dell 7630 apparently has an NVMe drive in it.

You apparently want to "preserve" that in some way on some other drive.

Best way to do that is using an image file made with Macrium...that would be a legit backup of everything on that NVMe.

That creates one huge file with an .mrimg extension. Probably 10 or more GB in size. Maybe 100 GB. It can be stored anywhere....another internal, an external, whatever has the capacity. Making the image file might take 10 minutes or might take an hour or so.

No special handling needed. It's just another file. You could keep it in the same folder as your recipes.

Not sure of your ultimate motive?

Replacing the NVMe in the 7630?

Safeguarding yourself against a disastrous NVMe failure?

Imaging can do either of those things.

"Cloning" is generally not the best idea to safeguard against disaster.

Cloning is useful to move from one good drive to another good drive...typically a larger drive. In one step.

But imaging can do that also. In 2 steps: make the image; restore the image.

Clarify your final goal.

Windows frowns at booting from an external drive, so not sure if you have that on your mind.

 

[USAFRet]

I'm not trying to start anything with any Windows or Macrium Reflect fans, I'm simply trying to explain why the differences between CCC (macOS) clone copies and Macrium Reflect 8 (Win 11) clone copies have thrown me way off. Specifically, I'm still getting used to not being able to boot from a clone copy stored on an external drive and not being able to employ unused storage space on the Macrium Reflect 8 (MR8) clone target disk. At this point, I trust that you understand some of my "rookie" MR8 questions.

Image vs Clone.

Cloning is for changing drives right now.
Say from an HDD to SSD.
Or smaller to larger.


Images are for storing a backup.
Store it wherever you want. It ends up in a single file of ---.mrimage.
Said Image will be slightly smaller than the actual consumed space of the source drive.
And you can stash that Image on any drive you want, and have full use of the rest of the space.

I have 6x physical drives in my main system. All SSD.
Macrium Images, both Full and Incremental, are stored in a folder tree on my NAS.
Indeed, ALL of my house systems write their Images t that same folder tree in the NAS.
Frequency and type of Image depends on the specific PC.
My main system, a nightly Incremental. Each drive individually, every night, between the hours of 0200 and 0500.
Keep for a rolling 30 days.

My HTPC, a Full Image every other day, keep for a rolling 5 Images.

Other systems on their own schedules.

 

[MC Freak]

Clarify your final goal.

I was hoping that my last post would clarify things ... but perhaps not.

We've had at least two internal storage drive failures over our past 12+ years employing Mac machines [more if I consider the old PC days]. Using our Carbon Copy Cloner (CCC) clone copies, one can simply plug an external drive into a USB or a Thunderbolt port and go back to work. Needless to say, it would be very nice to have the ability to do the same thing with a Macrium Reflect 8 (MR8) clone copy, but that this thread indicates that this is out of the question when it comes to Windows, so I'm considering if an MR8 clone copy can be of any use to us.

After giving this more thought, I'd like to have a bootable copy of the internal system disk on storage media that can "rescue" the new Dell 7630 in case of a system drive failure ... and I'm sure that there are some who think this is overkill, but we've actually had a new storage drive suddenly fail within one year, in the past, so I'd rather be safe than [very] sorry.

We don't own an NAS device, so that's out ... but we have had very positive experiences employing external CCC clone disk copies. Considering what I'm reading in this thread about sytem disk "images," the obvious question is - if we record an MR8 "disk image" to a NVMe PCIe M.2 gum stick SSD - can we install it in the new Dell 7630, change the boot order and simply boot the machine up? If we can, this seemingly nullifies the idea of cloning a PC system drive, right? Perhaps PC "disk images" are equivalent to "clone copies" in macOS speak? After all, a CCC target disk drive doesn't restrict the use of unused/extra space on the target drive.

After all of these years, I'm a PC rookie again, so I'll wait, read and think before making any further moves.

 

[USAFRet]

After giving this more thought, I'd like to have a bootable copy of the internal system disk on storage media that can "rescue" the new Dell 7630 in case of a system drive failure ... and I'm sure that there are some who think this is overkill, but we've actually had a new storage drive suddenly fail within one year, in the past, so I'd rather be safe than [very] sorry.

Yes it is overkill.

But an Image can be recovered to a new drive in short order. An hour maybe.

A fully bootable Clone is only as good as the day it was made.
How often will you redo the clone?


I too have had to recover after a dead drive. Not the OS drive, but a 960GB SSD, 605GB data on it.
Click click in Macrium, 90 minutes later, all 605GB recovered exactly as it was at 4AM that morning, when it ran its nightly Incremental image.

Macrium has a RescueUSB function.
It makes a bootable USB, enough to get the system running with the needed Macrium tool.
Boot from that, select the source image and drive, select the replacement Target drive, Go.


But, the way you desire can be done as well.
Don't leave that replacement drive unpowered for too long, though. You don't want it sitting on the shelf for 6 months, and then find out it does not work.

 

[Lafong]

Two possibilities:

Clone; you use Macrium to successfully "copy" everything onto some new drive. Confirm the clone will IN FACT boot your PC. If it will, disconnect it and put it in your closet. Drive is never used again unless original drive fails. If the clone is made on Sept 10, the drive in the closet is in Sept 10 state.

Image: use Macrium to create an image file. Store it wherever you want. Continue to use the storage location for whatever purpose you want. Make a new image file whenever you want, maybe monthly? Delete the old image files whenever you want. Restore the image file of your choice whenever you want.

If original drive fails, you would do one of the following:

If you cloned:

1; go to your closet, get the clone drive; replace the original with the clone; if it boots, you are operational and in the same state as you were on the day you made the clone.

or if you used imaging:

2; remove the failed drive. Install a new replacement drive. Boot your PC from Macrium Recovery Media USB flash drive that you previously make with Macrium. That leads you to Macrium interface. Using menus, locate an image file made yesterday or 5 years ago, your choice. Direct Macrium to restore it to the new SSD. Shut down and reboot from the new drive. System is then in the state it was at the moment the image file was made....yesterday or 5 years ago.

Either puts you back in business.

Take your pick.

You can mull over the disadvantages if you want.

 

[MC Freak]

One way to do this is to boot the rescue media that you made with macrium that you have on a flash stick.

Then select the hdd as the source and the gum stick as the destination.

@Bob.B ... Would you mind elaborating on how to create "...rescue media..." using Macrium Reflect 8 (MR8)? I don't recall seeing this option in the free version of MR8. Thank you for trying to help.

 

[USAFRet]

@Bob.B ... Would you mind elaborating on how to create "...rescue media..." using Macrium Reflect 8 (MR8)? I don't recall seeing this option in the free version of MR8. Thank you for trying to help.

On the Menu Bar - Other Tasks
Create Rescue Media

 

[Bob.B]

@Bob.B ... Would you mind elaborating on how to create "...rescue media..." using Macrium Reflect 8 (MR8)? I don't recall seeing this option in the free version of MR8. Thank you for trying to help.

As usaf wrote.

Keep in mind that if the gum stick croaks your dead unless you have a spare gum stick sitting on the shelf.

Perhaps clone to a gum stick instead of a hdd now your covered in two directions.