News TSMC Arizona struggles to overcome vast differences between Taiwanese and US work culture

[Admin]

As TSMC fights to bring its new Arizona fabs online, the company learns the Taiwanese way isn't going to work in America and needs to change.

TSMC Arizona struggles to overcome vast differences between Taiwanese and US work culture : Read more

 

[parkerthon]

Makes me wonder what the solution is here. Obviously Japan’s working culture was aggressively different initially during 80’s, but they managed to mostly bridge the culture gap and found good results learning to manufacture in the US. Sounds to me like TSMC are literally importing half their work force to grind this process forward instead of stepping back to ensure they connect with US norms and culture before they start things up. Sounds like TSMC doesn’t have anyone with any experience building a global company frankly.

 

[jp7189]

TSMC is the pride of Taiwan. It's an honor to work there. Kids plan their classes with the goal of landing a job there.

Literally zero people dream of working at TSMC Phoenix. It's just one of many options to pay the bills where the least amount of work for the highest pay is a chief consideration.

 

[rluker5]

There are a lot of good workers in the US, but also a lot of terrible workers.
Often the terrible workers, who do as little as possible without getting fired, are good at looking like they are not terrible unless you work with them and have to clean up/ finish up/ fix/ preemptively take specific actions so they don't ruin the product. It becomes obvious then, especially when you have equipment that keeps a history of what was done with it.

If you don't have experience dealing with these Homer Simpsons because they are rare where you come from you might wind up with a lot of them.

 

[hotaru251]

If TSMC is going to succeed with its Arizona chip-making venture, it needs to come to terms with the fact that it’s not the only game in town there. While TSMC is considered by many in Taiwan as the pinnacle of engineering jobs, other companies in Arizona are competing for that labor pool. Intel, in particular, is expanding its Arizona chip factory.

dumb take imo.

Intel's fab can't do what TSMC can....else there wouldnt be a need for US to give funding to TSMC to begin with.

While yes the culture difference is a thing I don't blame TSMC for doing it their way...they got to be where they are doing exactly that.
As an American I also understand nobody wants to work more than needed but I am pretty sure these terms are in contact/info for the job....a job they agreed to terms of....If they didn't like it why did they bother accepting job?

 

[Overfloating]

I gladly left the SC industry behind after 5 years in a coveted "Process Integration Engineer" role, basically the bullies of the process side of the fab. Although I did not work for TSMC (and never will) I faced the same issues that all people that aren't actually androids in the industry eventually face and cope with in their own ways: burnout. The 24/7 nature of the industry meant that even when you're off work you aren't actually off work, you constantly have the specter of being called any time of the day/weekend, possibly even on vacation. It wears on you. Management's reply was that "this is the industry" which is basically all I've read from TSMC's side regarding their problems in the USA. I have no problem putting in a solid 8 hour day but especially in critical roles that is the minimum expectation. I didn't pour YEARS of my life in school getting a post graduate degree to be treated like a slave with a paycheck. If people have other options, in this country, they take them. The Phoenix area also has plenty of aerospace jobs available for electrical engineers so if TSMC thinks they are going to ride in on their reputation as being the #1 manufacturer in the world of SCs and expect hires to constantly fellate them when they treat their workers like crap, well, get ready for a reality check suckers! I laugh every time I read articles like this knowing I made the right choice to leave the industry and their mostly clueless management behind and focus on gaining skills with my hands, which will always be in demand and gives me the freedom over my precious time on this earth. My suggestion to TSMC is this, treat your Taiwanese workers like slaves if that works for you over there, but this is America, we won't put up with your BS and getting fired by a tyrant isn't a scary thing for a well educated person with options. You have less power over here so you better make a massive culture adjustment to your US operations or you will continue to face delay after delay due to turnover of your newly trained workers. If you call yourselves the masters of efficiency prove that you're also adaptable because you sure as hell aren't efficient at all when you can't treat your employees like slaves. Oh yeah and if you're looking for anyone with experience in PI, don't call me!

 

[DS426]

dumb take imo.

Intel's fab can't do what TSMC can....else there wouldnt be a need for US to give funding to TSMC to begin with.

While yes the culture difference is a thing I don't blame TSMC for doing it their way...they got to be where they are doing exactly that.
As an American I also understand nobody wants to work more than needed but I am pretty sure these terms are in contact/info for the job....a job they agreed to terms of....If they didn't like it why did they bother accepting job?

Yeah, ok, glad you got that out. Fortunately or unforunately, it's true.

If any other internal corporation could just come into the U.S. and do what the F ever they wanted to, then yeah, competition be darned and they're the winner of the universe. That's just not how it works.

The reports said that engineer and other job types didn't expect to be working the long hours that they are and travel just getting spun up on the job. I think the problem is that the contract leaves room for that over-time and on-call nature with zero regret for personal life circumstances, like health, families, etc. That might be how Taiwan works, but in the U.S., we're at least allowed to put our families, our country, our faith first. That's not an option at TSMC, and it's being learned the hard way.

So that's really where it's at. If you want to commit to the TSMC/semiconductor cult, it's there for good pay and "purpose." Otherwise, you're apparently a sh*tbag and not contributing sufficiently to their crazy success.

Completely off on the U.S funding thing as it applies to everyone equally and is about national supply chain and "national defense" -- Samsug gets funding, Intel gets funding, TSMC gets funding, Micron gets funding, and at least a half dozen other small orgs get funding to INCENTIVIZE chip production in the U.S. The difference is that if TSMC thought that they could invoke the same labor conditions here... *mind blown* lesson learned, lol. I don't feel bad for them because life is more than working... just my opinion.

 

[JamesJones44]

I keep seeing this about TSMC, but makes me wonder why Samsung hasn't had any issues yet. It's early in the process so maybe the will pop up, but thus far Samsung hasn't been complaining about culture differences. Maybe this is more of a TSMC issue they are trying to pass off instead of owning. I guess well see in a few months how the Samsung plant in Taylor Texas progresses.

 

[JRStern]

With a $65+ billion budget I hope somebody expected these problems and has plans to deal with them, but I'm also sure they are very real. There's a culture thing, for sure. I suspect a much bigger problem is going to be a competence problem, and poorly qualified workers only aggravate the culture gaps. Being an engineer in the US has lost status in the US over the last generation. It attracts fewer people and less well qualified. And every one wants to quit the big company and start their own to get the big bucks. Plus I don't doubt there is a second culture gap, the Taiwanese thinking all the Americans are a step down or they wouldn't need Taiwan to come to their rescue. That may be true or false in reality but that will not fly with Americans, at all. The problem could continue.

 

[Integr8d]

Everyone needs to watch/rewatch Gung Ho.

 

[overlord]

Makes one wonder how Amazon, Tesla and X get away with similar working environments 🤫

 

[ottonis]

A computer chip factory that has the latest and most modern manufacturing technologies in the nm range is in no way comparable to the assembly of smartphones, cars or other electronics. It involves clean room conditions and extremely sensitive technical processes that not only require a great deal of knowledge and skill, but also special dedication if they are to be successful. When a wafer is manufactured, you don't want 70% of the processors it contains to be rejects, but rather the highest possible yield of defect-free products.
Apparently, TSMC has managed to be extremely successful in this respect and to assert itself against the global competition in terms of production methods as well as execution and quality.
And it seems that TSMC believes that an extraordinary commitment beyond 08/5 (8 hours per day, 5 days a week) is a keay ingedient in this method mix that made them so successful.
So, instead of only seeing the negative side of such extreme work-commitment, one should ask whether or not this fab shall be cutting edge and provide maximum success or not.

 

[Dr3ams]

If TSMC thinks that the work culture in America is difficult for them, they are going to have an even bigger surprise here in Germany.

 

[SergeantRegular]

TSMC is the pride of Taiwan. It's an honor to work there. Kids plan their classes with the goal of landing a job there.

Literally zero people dream of working at TSMC Phoenix. It's just one of many options to pay the bills where the least amount of work for the highest pay is a chief consideration.

The US used to have this kind of pride in the workplace, but the "share price is the only thing that matters" mentality that started in the 70s and really took off in the 80s effectively killed it. But, since then, certain companies have had it. Working for Lucent or Microsoft in the 90s, those were jobs people were proud of - for a little bit. A few years ago, there was even that movie about how cool it was for some older guys to get a job at Google. "The Internship."

American work culture stems from American corporate culture, and our large businesses have long ago lost the employee goodwill that would enable them the kind of "above and beyond" efforts that TSMC apparently enjoys in Taiwan.

 

[KyaraM]

If TSMC thinks that the work culture in America is difficult for them, they are going to have an even bigger surprise here in Germany.

Was just thinking the same, LOL. Worker protection here is quite a bit stricter than in the US, and infinitely more so than in Taiwan it seems. And if they tried the practices described here, they might even face legal consequences. In any case, it's not a good showing for the company at all. Holy cow, what an abusive workplace...

There are a lot of good workers in the US, but also a lot of terrible workers.
Often the terrible workers, who do as little as possible without getting fired, are good at looking like they are not terrible unless you work with them and have to clean up/ finish up/ fix/ preemptively take specific actions so they don't ruin the product. It becomes obvious then, especially when you have equipment that keeps a history of what was done with it.

If you don't have experience dealing with these Homer Simpsons because they are rare where you come from you might wind up with a lot of them.

Leaving an abusive employer got jack to do with being a lazy and/or bad worker...

dumb take imo.

Intel's fab can't do what TSMC can....else there wouldnt be a need for US to give funding to TSMC to begin with.

While yes the culture difference is a thing I don't blame TSMC for doing it their way...they got to be where they are doing exactly that.
As an American I also understand nobody wants to work more than needed but I am pretty sure these terms are in contact/info for the job....a job they agreed to terms of....If they didn't like it why did they bother accepting job?

Considering that all it says there is "there are greener and less abusive pastures, so it makes sense that people leave and look elsewhere", the only not-so-great take is yours, frankly. And if this is is how they treat their Taiwanese workers, I actually find it concerning that your take is "eh, can't blame them" instead of being disgusted with the company. It's funny how you guys always clamor about customer rights and stuff, and how these companies owe you something, but then turn around and turn a blind eye on literal workplace abuse. I'm currently not sure what disgusts me more, the abuse or the handwaving of it some people here do.

(Edited for typos)

 

[dalauder]

There are a lot of good workers in the US, but also a lot of terrible workers.
Often the terrible workers, who do as little as possible without getting fired, are good at looking like they are not terrible unless you work with them and have to clean up/ finish up/ fix/ preemptively take specific actions so they don't ruin the product. It becomes obvious then, especially when you have equipment that keeps a history of what was done with it.

If you don't have experience dealing with these Homer Simpsons because they are rare where you come from you might wind up with a lot of them.

There's just no incentive to be a good worker in the U.S. You can be the best worker in your state and you still get fired when there's a recession, like everyone else. It used to be that ownership would take pay cuts to try to take care of its long-term employees. Now top level execs and owners milk the company and run it into the ground, then jump ship.

So worker culture will get worse as job security gets worse. It's tough to put in extra work when you won't get paid and you won't get credit.

Maybe other people have had good working experiences in the U.S. over the last 20 years?

 

[dalauder]

Was just thinking the same, LOL. Worker protection here is quite a bit stricter than in the US, and infinitely more so than in Taiwan it seem. And if they tried the practices described here, they might even face legal consequences. In any case, it's not a good showing for the company at all. Holy cow, what an abusive workplace...


Leaving an abusive employer got jack to do with being a lazy and/or bad worker...


Considering that all it says there is "there are greener and less abusive pastures, so it makes sense that people leave and look elsewhere", the only not-so-great take is yours, frankly. And if this is is how they trwat their Taiwanese workers, I actually find it concerning that your take is "eh, can't blame them" instead of being disgusted with the company. It's funny how you guys always clamor about customer rights and stuff, and how these companies owe you something, but then turn around and turn a blind eye on literal wirkplace abuse. I'm currently not sure what disgusts me more, the abuse or the handwaving of it some people here do.

I'm not sure where you work, but it doesn't sound particularly more abusive than most high-skilled professional U.S. working environments. Kudos to finding a place that respects you or your peers. That's rare.

Both my brother and I quit engineering because we were sick of unpaid overtime and using our couple of annual vacation days up when we got sick.

 

[JeffreyP55]

As TSMC fights to bring its new Arizona fabs online, the company learns the Taiwanese way isn't going to work in America and needs to change.

TSMC Arizona struggles to overcome vast differences between Taiwanese and US work culture : Read more

Not many techie electronic types here in AZ. Mostly services and medical types.
I had severe culture shock moving from silicone valley. Living there my whole life then moving to Phoenix, AZ was an Oh no moment for me. When Fry's was in business in Palo Alto, CA, I could find any IC and most components for my builds. Phoenix? Fry's sold TV's and other consumer electronics. That is not what I called Fry's.

 

[magbarn]

I gladly left the SC industry behind after 5 years in a coveted "Process Integration Engineer" role, basically the bullies of the process side of the fab. Although I did not work for TSMC (and never will) I faced the same issues that all people that aren't actually androids in the industry eventually face and cope with in their own ways: burnout. The 24/7 nature of the industry meant that even when you're off work you aren't actually off work, you constantly have the specter of being called any time of the day/weekend, possibly even on vacation. It wears on you. Management's reply was that "this is the industry" which is basically all I've read from TSMC's side regarding their problems in the USA. I have no problem putting in a solid 8 hour day but especially in critical roles that is the minimum expectation. I didn't pour YEARS of my life in school getting a post graduate degree to be treated like a slave with a paycheck. If people have other options, in this country, they take them. The Phoenix area also has plenty of aerospace jobs available for electrical engineers so if TSMC thinks they are going to ride in on their reputation as being the #1 manufacturer in the world of SCs and expect hires to constantly fellate them when they treat their workers like crap, well, get ready for a reality check suckers! I laugh every time I read articles like this knowing I made the right choice to leave the industry and their mostly clueless management behind and focus on gaining skills with my hands, which will always be in demand and gives me the freedom over my precious time on this earth. My suggestion to TSMC is this, treat your Taiwanese workers like slaves if that works for you over there, but this is America, we won't put up with your BS and getting fired by a tyrant isn't a scary thing for a well educated person with options. You have less power over here so you better make a massive culture adjustment to your US operations or you will continue to face delay after delay due to turnover of your newly trained workers. If you call yourselves the masters of efficiency prove that you're also adaptable because you sure as hell aren't efficient at all when you can't treat your employees like slaves. Oh yeah and if you're looking for anyone with experience in PI, don't call me!

Try the medical field. It's the same crap. 11 years of post high school training to get everyone always breathing down your neck.
8 hours in clinic, 4 hours at home going over labs and refills.
Patients expecting you to be reading their labs and doing their refills in the middle of the night. Being able to file complaints to the medical board because you refuse to refill their narcotics when they're showing addict behavior...

 

[Giroro]

What is TSMC's incentive to keep the locals happy? I get the impression they would much rather have 100% of their workforce brought in from Taiwan.

Imagine taking the kind of management who "threaten workers with being fired for relatively minor failures.", and then you give them the power to not just fire those employees, but to have them deported.

Those employees would have no power at all. You could mistreat them, dictate their lifestyle however you wanted, and pay them essentially nothing. I think that is exactly what TSMC wants. They're probably going to keep picking fights with the expensive locals on purpose, just so they can use a lack of labor as justification to keep bringing in cheaper, easy to control replacements

 

[graham006]

dumb take imo.

Intel's fab can't do what TSMC can....else there wouldnt be a need for US to give funding to TSMC to begin with.

While yes the culture difference is a thing I don't blame TSMC for doing it their way...they got to be where they are doing exactly that.
As an American I also understand nobody wants to work more than needed but I am pretty sure these terms are in contact/info for the job....a job they agreed to terms of....If they didn't like it why did they bother accepting job?

Actually your take is the dumb take.

For TSMC to think that they can operate exactly like they do in Taiwan (12 hour days and interrupting employee's weekends, harsh work conditions) and get the same results is stupid (and they are finding that out now).

Intel is rapidly ramping up their technology to compete with TSMC. Intel knows they have problems. It's hitting home now. Expect Intel to contest this every step of the way.

Let's unpack your dumb analysis and poor grammar and spelling: "Intel's fab can't do what TSMC can....else there wouldnt be a need for US to give funding to TSMC to begin with."

Intel has already started producing 2nm wafers, volume production later this year or early next. They also have low volume of 18A wafers started, high volume next year. Intel is the largest purchaser of the next-gen ASML Twinscan litho machines. More than TSMC even. So you think the US Government gave TSMC money because Intel couldn't compete? That sort of ignores the fact that Intel also got billions for starting development in the US.

More dumb analysis:
"I am pretty sure these terms are in contact/info for the job"

Have you seen these contracts? They are generally pretty vague about working conditions other than employment is at will and except. Everything else is negotiable or can be walked away from by either party. If the employee doesn't like it, they have other options in this country. In Taiwan, there probably isn't another option if you want to work at a top semiconductor firm. That's the reality TSMC doesn't comprehend.

 

[DavidLejdar]

"12-hour work days"

Pfft... In my first full-time job, here in Europe, shifts lasted at least 14 hours, and on weekends easily 16 hours. And that for equal to around $450 a month, while the owner was having a Ferrari and a Maserati at the same time.

Not that I would be doing that job again though. Glad to be now at a corporation with Betriebsrat (works council), even though we are not part of the collective agreement, most of the other employees of the corporation in Germany have. And on that note, what TSMC did in Germany, is a joint venture with Bosch, Infineon, NXP Semiconductors - and e.g. the president of TSMC's subsidiary in Germany, worked directly for Bosch before. Which may not mean, that he is now telling TSMC about how great the IG Metall collective agreement is, that Bosch in particular has for most of its employees. But I'd say that it is easier for TSMC to establish itself and easier for the workers, with already some structures in place, and a pool, such as from the three mentioned, who are directly involved in the joint venture (and also some clear laws, such as about permitted work time, and about rest time, and such).

 

[KyaraM]

I'm not sure where you work, but it doesn't sound particularly more abusive than most high-skilled professional U.S. working environments. Kudos to finding a place that respects you or your peers. That's rare.

Both my brother and I quit engineering because we were sick of unpaid overtime and using our couple of annual vacation days up when we got sick.

That's actually sad. And I don't want to say it's all fun and rainbows in Germany, I did experience an abusive workplace before where the boss outright yelled at employees for every perceived mess-up. I still remember how the kind secretary came out the office crying because the boss yelled at her for half an hour for not consulting them about a wrong databaseentry before correcting the error. I didn't even make the probationary period there. When my current employer called with a job offer, I pounced at it. No regrets. I earn almost twice for my work (though I do have more responsibilities, too) and even when an issue crops up its discussed in a productive way. Got acknowledgement twice this year alone for excellent work. I work as a database manager/developer, GIS technician and environmental engineer (weird combo, I know xD).

And, see. The thing with having to take leave because you are sick is just not a thing here. They can't force you to do that. I had a car accident back in May because someone somehow managed to overlook my standing at a red traffic light and tried to run it. Couldn't work for over two weeks, all of it paid, no leave taken for it because it's pretty much illegal here to force the employee to do that, you can into huge trouble. Still returned to (remote) work far too early. And my employer? Told me to consider more sick leave since I was still not fine, and nobody wins when I destroy my health over a false sense of duty. Overtime is also strictly capped to 20h at any time, and even when I just get close to that mark they will ask me to take comp time, lol.

It's also harder to fire people here. Someone from the US told me once how their office mate was fire one second to the next. Unless it's the first 6 months (or less, depending on your contract), that won't work here unless you do something really bad, like embezzlement or stuff like that. You always have transition period, and you usually cannot be fired without any reason. It leads to a much better work environment normally. Surprising, I know... not having to fear for your job improves morale and productivity!

 

[magbarn]

Actually your take is the dumb take.

For TSMC to think that they can operate exactly like they do in Taiwan (12 hour days and interrupting employee's weekends, harsh work conditions) and get the same results is stupid (and they are finding that out now).

Intel is rapidly ramping up their technology to compete with TSMC. Intel knows they have problems. It's hitting home now. Expect Intel to contest this every step of the way.

Let's unpack your dumb analysis and poor grammar and spelling: "Intel's fab can't do what TSMC can....else there wouldnt be a need for US to give funding to TSMC to begin with."

Intel has already started producing 2nm wafers, volume production later this year or early next. They also have low volume of 18A wafers started, high volume next year. Intel is the largest purchaser of the next-gen ASML Twinscan litho machines. More than TSMC even. So you think the US Government gave TSMC money because Intel couldn't compete? That sort of ignores the fact that Intel also got billions for starting development in the US.

More dumb analysis:
"I am pretty sure these terms are in contact/info for the job"

Have you seen these contracts? They are generally pretty vague about working conditions other than employment is at will and except. Everything else is negotiable or can be walked away from by either party. If the employee doesn't like it, they have other options in this country. In Taiwan, there probably isn't another option if you want to work at a top semiconductor firm. That's the reality TSMC doesn't comprehend.

Good old Intel. The Boeing of Semiconductors. We'll see if they're able to pull a rabbit out of the hat in the next 6 months, but I'm doubtful. There's a reason their stock is trash and back to levels a quarter of a century ago. TSMC has been firing on all cylinders and hasn't let up to allow the competition to even catch their breath.

 

[bigdragon]

Wow, this is depressing. Why does it have to be this way?

I don't understand why executives think working people 12+ hour days most days of the week for months or years on end is acceptable. How about hire 2 people instead of just 1? Human society has afforded people with the mantra of "live to work" too much power.

I'm old enough to remember working in the 90's in jobs that prized redundancy. There were always multiple people on the sales floor, refereeing a game, or maintaining a department. If someone couldn't make it, then no worries because there was redundancy. That's all changed now. "One-deep" is the norm so many places. Society has given investors and executives so much control that it's compromising quality of life for people and hurting projects that could have been done on time if more reasonable expectations were normalized.

I'm still happy TSMC is building in Phoenix. I wish their leaders would get their heads out of their butts, step out of their bubbles, and realize people aren't machines or numbers in a spreadsheet. That fab could have been online this year if TSMC stopped antagonizing their workers.