News TSMC Seeks $15 Billion from U.S. Gov't, But Pushes Back on Restrictions

[Admin]

TSMC wants to get CHIPS and Science funding, but does not want to share fab details or 'excess' profits with the U.S. government.

TSMC Seeks $15 Billion from U.S. Gov't, But Pushes Back on Restrictions : Read more

 

[bit_user]

Couldn't they just use an outside auditing firm to review these details and basically deliver a report to the Department of Commerce about whether the terms of the subsidies are being met and how much (if any) profit needs to be shared?

These firms audit all the publicly-traded companies, in the US and elsewhere, and those doubtlessly have the same sorts of concerns about disclosure of sensitive competitive details.

 

[Giroro]

The US government should throw a couple of billion dollars my way. I pinky-promise I'll follow every single trade restriction. I'll even go one further and guarantee I won't sell a single piece of silicon internationally, nor make a single cent of profit on my chip sales.

 

[InvalidError]

If the government has to subsidize the heck out of chip manufacturing to guarantee essential supply and chip manufacturers won't agree to the terms attached to the money they are begging the government for, then the government should just build its own nationalized chip foundry operation.

Large corporations shouldn't get to beg for trillions of dollars of no-strings-attached subsidies and price-gouge customers on top. If you beg for subsidies, you should get price/profit-controlled in one way or another that should eventually refund society for those subsidies.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

Couldn't they just use an outside auditing firm to review these details and basically deliver a report to the Department of Commerce about whether the terms of the subsidies are being met and how much (if any) profit needs to be shared?

These firms audit all the publicly-traded companies, in the US and elsewhere, and those doubtlessly have the same sorts of concerns about disclosure of sensitive competitive details.

Doubtful, there's a reason why all that information any of the Governments want is considered a "Trade Secret".
Any leakage of that information could present serious Strategic Vulnerabilities.

In the end, it'd be better off to not accept the $$$ than deal with the requests.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

If the government has to subsidize the heck out of chip manufacturing to guarantee essential supply and chip manufacturers won't agree to the terms attached to the money they are begging the government for, then the government should just build its own nationalized chip foundry operation.

Large corporations shouldn't get to beg for trillions of dollars of no-strings-attached subsidies and price-gouge customers on top. If you beg for subsidies, you should get price/profit-controlled in one way or another that should eventually refund society for those subsidies.

If the fact that they aren't building their operations in the US isn't good enough.
It's not like you can move a Semi-Conductor Factory after it's built.
Once it's there, it's there.

Then the Large Corporations will probably say "No" to the subsidies if the strings attached are not to their liking.

That's usually how it works.

Better to not have strategic vulnerabilities than to be beholden to another government like that.

We all know how well the US Government "Keeps information Secret" given it's vast amount of leaks of top secret info and personal info in the past 20+ years.

It's a joke that they even remotely "Promise to keep it secret".

 

[bit_user]

The US government should throw a couple of billion dollars my way. I pinky-promise I'll follow every single trade restriction. I'll even go one further and guarantee I won't sell a single piece of silicon internationally, nor make a single cent of profit on my chip sales.

I think you've done a good job of illustrating exactly why they want to audit recipients of these subsidies.

 

[TerryLaze]

If the government has to subsidize the heck out of chip manufacturing to guarantee essential supply and chip manufacturers won't agree to the terms attached to the money they are begging the government for, then the government should just build its own nationalized chip foundry operation.

Just a guess but I think the government wants a supply of actual chips that do something, and building a foundry will still leave them with the same problem of not having anything to manufacture with them since all of the IP of anything useful belongs to other parties.
They would then, additionally, have to figure out a way to stay in the black and also only produce for companies that will sell only inside the borders.

 

[bit_user]

It's not like you can move a Semi-Conductor Factory after it's built.
Once it's there, it's there.

If it's not profitable, then they will shut it down. Just getting it built isn't good enough.

We all know how well the US Government "Keeps information Secret" given it's vast amount of leaks of top secret info and personal info in the past 20+ years.

It's a joke that they even remotely "Promise to keep it secret".

The government is a massive organization with many different functions and departments. The fact that some parts of the government have had issues at some points in time doesn't mean the entire enterprise is subject to those problems forever onward.

When something needs to get done, I'm sure a mutually-agreeable way can be found.

I wonder if blockchain could be used to hold cryptographic hashes of the detailed reports, which could be retained by the manufacturer for a competitively-relevant time period (e.g. 3 years?). Then, once the time period has elapsed, the report can be released to the government that supplies all the necessary details. If the hash doesn't match or the report doesn't satisfy the terms of the subsidy, they retroactively lose it. That's essentially a blockchain-based version of keeping it in escrow.

 

[bit_user]

Just a guess but I think the government wants a supply of actual chips that do something, and building a foundry will still leave them with the same problem of not having anything to manufacture with them since all of the IP of anything useful belongs to other parties.

IP can be appropriated via Eminent Domain, if there were a sufficient "national interest" case to be made for doing so. I think it would be very destructive to the industry, and therefore a last resort, but it can & has happened.

I can understand TSMC's complaints, but I do think they're slightly exaggerated. Consider it their opening position, rather than absolute demands. They probably expect to negotiate terms somewhere in the middle.

 

[PEnns]

Don't you just love it when Big Business wants billions in corporate welfare but they also want to set their own conditions on how to use the tax payers' money!!And Profit Sharing?? Hell no!!

Welcome to the underbelly of the "free market system".

 

[Deleted member 1353997]

Don't you just love it when Big Business wants billions in corporate welfare but they also want to set their own conditions on how to use the tax payers' money!!And Profit Sharing?? Hell no!!

Welcome to the underbelly of the "free market system".

Here's the thing: in the "free market system", both sides of the deal must agree. That means both sides get to set their own conditions, and neither is forced to accept anything.

 

[InvalidError]

Just a guess but I think the government wants a supply of actual chips that do something, and building a foundry will still leave them with the same problem of not having anything to manufacture with them since all of the IP of anything useful belongs to other parties.

TSMC doesn't design anything in-house besides the libraries companies need to design chips on their processes. Didn't stop them from becoming the largest IC manufacturer on the planet.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

If it's not profitable, then they will shut it down. Just getting it built isn't good enough.

True, but leaking secrets and government limiting profits isn't helping.

The government is a massive organization with many different functions and departments. The fact that some parts of the government have had issues at some points in time doesn't mean the entire enterprise is subject to those problems forever onward.

When something needs to get done, I'm sure a mutually-agreeable way can be found.

Sure, the Semi-Conductor Companies can tell the government to suck it.

They won't take the $$$ and make chips else-where where they're allowed to keep secrets.

It's not like the US is the only place to manufacture Semiconductors.

There are other Democratic Governments that will play ball.

I wonder if blockchain could be used to hold cryptographic hashes of the detailed reports, which could be retained by the manufacturer for a competitively-relevant time period (e.g. 3 years?). Then, once the time period has elapsed, the report can be released to the government that supplies all the necessary details. If the hash doesn't match or the report doesn't satisfy the terms of the subsidy, they retroactively lose it. That's essentially a blockchain-based version of keeping it in escrow.

Nope, anything short of "Not giving you jack" on information.
Anything you want to learn, take it from our public quarterly reports.

 

[Kamen Rider Blade]

IP can be appropriated via Eminent Domain, if there were a sufficient "national interest" case to be made for doing so. I think it would be very destructive to the industry, and therefore a last resort, but it can & has happened.

I can understand TSMC's complaints, but I do think they're slightly exaggerated. Consider it their opening position, rather than absolute demands. They probably expect to negotiate terms somewhere in the middle.

Yeah, I think they'd rather just not take the $$$.

If the US Government was more reasonable and asked for other things.

Not trade secrets, not financial revenue, not profit limiting or caps.

 

[bit_user]

TSMC doesn't design anything in-house besides the libraries companies need to design chips on their processes.

The "node" is theirs. In other words, they're the ones who devise what transistors and wires look like, how they're formed, how many layers & why types they are, and what they're made of. So, it's a bit dismissive to say they only design "libraries".

They also have chip stacking and interposer technologies, akin to Intel's EMIB and Foveros.

If it were as simple as you seem to suggest, then there's no reason Samsung or Intel would've fallen behind.

 

[TerryLaze]

TSMC doesn't design anything in-house besides the libraries companies need to design chips on their processes. Didn't stop them from becoming the largest IC manufacturer on the planet.

TSMC is around since 1987 they aren't starting up now.
Also they don't demand that anything manufactured by them stays in their country or that they have any say or claims on any trade secrets.

 

[hammer2008]

If the government has to subsidize the heck out of chip manufacturing to guarantee essential supply and chip manufacturers won't agree to the terms attached to the money they are begging the government for, then the government should just build its own nationalized chip foundry operation.

Large corporations shouldn't get to beg for trillions of dollars of no-strings-attached subsidies and price-gouge customers on top. If you beg for subsidies, you should get price/profit-controlled in one way or another that should eventually refund society for those subsidies.

From your statement.. US had to subsidize to guarantee essential supply... It sounds to me its the US who needed TSMC. Not the other way around. They are not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. LOL

 

[TerryLaze]

From your statement.. US had to subsidize to guarantee essential supply... It sounds to me its the US who needed TSMC. Not the other way around. They are not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts. LOL

They only need TSMC if they can't find enough other takers.

 

[hammer2008]

They only need TSMC if they can't find enough other takers.

FYI. TSMC is the leading fab for most advanced process nodes. My original point is still valid. US needs them, not the other way around.

 

[Deleted member 14196]

FYI. TSMC is the leading fab for most advanced process nodes. My original point is still valid. US needs them, not the other way around.

No, the US government doesn’t need them they could build their own fab. The world would survive without them. If China invades them and take them over and we’d be without them so we better build without them and let them go complain Somewhere else about not getting free money.

 

[purpleduggy]

TSMC wants to get CHIPS and Science funding, but does not want to share fab details or 'excess' profits with the U.S. government.

TSMC Seeks $15 Billion from U.S. Gov't, But Pushes Back on Restrictions : Read more

the US is playing around with $50 billion for CHIPS. they should be putting in a few trillion into this manufacturing sector if they want to become the semiconductor manufacturing powerhouse. 50 billion is not enough and is a joke. China put down $300 Billion. The US needs to triple it or they are going to lose their technological edge. Mark my words

 

[TerryLaze]

FYI. TSMC is the leading fab for most advanced process nodes. My original point is still valid. US needs them, not the other way around.

The US, or any country for that matter, doesn't need the most advanced stuff, they just need something good enough to make their fridges work.
They don't want to become leaders in FABing they just don't want to be completely out of business whenever there is a chip shortage, it's enough if there is enough chips for basic important stuff to be made.

 

[Deleted member 14196]

Until China can manufacture their own machines like ASML stuff, we don’t have anything to worry about

 

[bit_user]

No, the US government doesn’t need them they could build their own fab.

Let's be realistic, here. That wouldn't happen. It's politically difficult enough to keep the US Postal Service solvent, and they're essential for providing mail service to lots of places for-profit shippers won't touch.

Not only would you need to scratch up the funding to bootstrap such a venture, but there's the whole technological deficit you'd have to overcome, in order to develop a remotely modern node. Relying on a national fab would basically be the quickest way to set us back about 15 years or more, technologically.

The world would survive without them.

If you remember how hard it was to get chips from 2021 - 2022, that same sort of supply shortage would occur on an even larger scale. That would be very disruptive to the world economy. The funding programs in both the US and Europe are both aimed at building up some reserve capacity, in case of just such an event.

If China invades them and take them over and we’d be without them so we better build without them and let them go complain Somewhere else about not getting free money.

If they have fabs on US and European soil, and if we can somehow encourage them to make those fabs sufficiently independent of the mothership, then they can be part of the solution. Even now, it's not as if Taiwan is the ideal place to manufacture chips - last year, they faced historic droughts that threatened to limit production, since chip manufacturing uses lots of water.

the US is playing around with $50 billion for CHIPS. they should be putting in a few trillion into this manufacturing sector if they want to become the semiconductor manufacturing powerhouse. 50 billion is not enough and is a joke.

That's how private/public partnerships work. We chip in a little public money to top up an industry on the brink, and suddenly it becomes profitable enough to stem the tide of manufacturers shifting operations overseas.

China put down $300 Billion.

It's a lot more expensive to build up a new industry than to save an existing one. That's why it's important that we stem the bleeding and reverse the losses in semiconductor manufacturing.

I've said before that this isn't going to be a "one and done" scenario. CHIPS is a down payment that will need to be followed with some additional funding, as we near the end of its window. We provide agricultural subsidies, because we all understand how important it is to protect our food supply. Semiconductors are becoming almost as vital for our other industries and overall economy.

The US, or any country for that matter, doesn't need the most advanced stuff, they just need something good enough to make their fridges work.

Nothing about this statement is true. Even ignoring how vital cloud computing and smartphones are to modern society, tons of industrial equipment has advanced semiconductors in it. As does a vast array of products, from bluetooth headphones to security cameras. Not only that, but we also saw how hard the chip shortage hit the automotive industry. And so many of us that attend school or work partially or fully remote cannot do so via fridge-level technology. Forget about online gaming or video streaming.