Twincast

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Hi,

Am I allowed not to choose new targets for the copy made with Twincast,
even if the original spell's target is illegal now?

Twincast
UU
Instant
Copy target instant or sorcery spell. You may choose new targets for the copy.

--
David

 

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David de Kloet <dskloet@few.vu.nl> sent:
> Hi,

> Am I allowed not to choose new targets for the copy made with Twincast,
> even if the original spell's target is illegal now?

Yes. It says 'you may choose new targets', not 'choose new targets'.
In this case, it gives you an option about whether or not to choose
new targets; if you don't choose new targets, then the original target
choice(s) stay.

--
-- zoe

 

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"David de Kloet" <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote in message
newsine.GSO.4.56.0506041509330.19308@fluit.few.vu.nl...
> Hi,
>
> Am I allowed not to choose new targets for the copy made with Twincast,
> even if the original spell's target is illegal now?
>
> Twincast
> UU
> Instant
> Copy target instant or sorcery spell. You may choose new targets for the
> copy.

Yes. Twincast says 'You *MAY* choose new targets for the copy.' The key word
here is MAY, which means it is always optional. It's like Coastal Piracy's
'may' clause:

Coastal Piracy
2UU
Enchantment
Whenever a creature you control deals combat damage to an opponent, you may
draw a card.

In other words, if you feel it's beneficial that you don't draw a card from
the combat damage, then you don't have to. By the same token, if you want to
keep the same targets for the spellcopy you made with Twincast, then so be
it.

Aside: I presume that if you don't declare (eg Twincast) or follow up (eg
Coastal Piracy) on any MAYs, that it's assumed that that part doesn't occur
and whatever's left happens. In other words, if you Twincast a Fireball that
domed you for 10, and you neglect to mention that your Twincast of the
Fireball hits your opponent instead, that means you take 20 from two
Fireballs. Do the rules support this?

Erich

 

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David de Kloet <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote:
>Am I allowed not to choose new targets for the copy made with Twincast,
>even if the original spell's target is illegal now?

Yes.

>Twincast UU Instant
>Copy target instant or sorcery spell. You may choose new targets for the copy.

It does say "you may", implying "you also may not, if you wish". You're free
to _not_ choose any new targets, in which case the copy copies the original's
exactly. _If_ you pick new targets they have to be legal; if you're not
picking new targets, nothing about 'copy this exactly including any targets
it may have' says "and do something weird if one or more of the targets
are now not legal".

This is just like Fork, which, other than having that "copies Fork's color"
bit, is a red mirror of Twincast and whose rulings can come over en masse
bearing those two differences in mind.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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"Erich Leibrock" <eleibrock@symDELETETHECAPSpatico.ca> wrote in message
news:JHjoe.41556$_r1.1392016@news20.bellglobal.com...
> "David de Kloet" <dskloet@few.vu.nl> wrote in message
> newsine.GSO.4.56.0506041509330.19308@fluit.few.vu.nl...
>> Hi,
>>
>> Am I allowed not to choose new targets for the copy made with Twincast,
>> even if the original spell's target is illegal now?
>>
>> Twincast
>> UU
>> Instant
>> Copy target instant or sorcery spell. You may choose new targets for the
>> copy.
>
> Yes. Twincast says 'You *MAY* choose new targets for the copy.' The key
> word here is MAY, which means it is always optional. It's like Coastal
> Piracy's

I missed part of the question, obviously. If the original spell has an
illegal target, the Twincasted version likely can't target it either. The
question is, whether the Twincast can be played in response to what would
make the target illegal. For example:

I have White Knight out (protection from black).
My opponent plays Fireball, targetting the Knight.
In response, I play Mind Bend, targeting White Knight. One can infer that
the selection will be to red, although this is no guarantee. [Mind Bend, U,
Instant. Change the text of target permanent by replacing all instances of
one color word with another or one basic land type with another. (For
example, you may change "nonblack creature" to "nongreen creature" or
"forestwalk" to "plainswalk." This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)]
In response, my opponent plays Twincast, targetting the Fireball. One can
infer that the target of the Twincast of the Fireball will be to the Knight,
but again, this is not definite at this point.

In this case, if all choices are made as indicated (Mind Bend changes the
Knight's protection to Red, and the Twincast of the Fireball targets the
Knight), then the Twincast of the Fireball will cause lethal damage to the
Knight, as the Mind Bend would not have resolved yet. However, if the Mind
Bend is allowed to resolve BEFORE Twincast is played, then the Knight will
have had its protection changed to Red, the original Fireball would be
countered on resolution due to illegal target, and so the Twincasted
Fireball will need a target other than the
White-Knight-that-became-a-Silver-Knight-with-a-different-name.

Erich

 

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Erich Leibrock <eleibrock@symDELETETHECAPSpatico.ca> wrote:
>Yes. Twincast says 'You *MAY* choose new targets for the copy.' The key word
>here is MAY, which means it is always optional.

Right. Compare it to Deflection or Shunt, which do NOT give a choice about
changing the targets...

>Aside: I presume that if you don't declare (eg Twincast) or follow up (eg
>Coastal Piracy) on any MAYs, that it's assumed that that part doesn't occur
>and whatever's left happens. In other words, if you Twincast a Fireball that
>domed you for 10, and you neglect to mention that your Twincast of the
>Fireball hits your opponent instead, that means you take 20 from two
>Fireballs. Do the rules support this?

The rules say you have to announce what you are doing ... and the rules
assume pretty much everywhere that you're following the rules. So if you
don't say you're changing the target, you're not doing so, just like if
you don't say you're drawing the card as Coastal Piracy resolves, the rules
say you don't draw it.

However, you might be getting into the Tournament Rules portion of the game
here, which involve judges, mistakes, misannouncements, and generally anything
that has to be taken care of outside the rulebook because part of the rulebook
wasn't followed correctly. If you -meant- to change the target but didn't say
so, then opponent (or you) gets to call "Judge!" in a tournament, and then
follow -their- instructions and, er, judgement...

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Erich Leibrock <eleibrock@symDELETETHECAPSpatico.ca> wrote:
>>> Am I allowed not to choose new targets for the copy made with Twincast,
>>> even if the original spell's target is illegal now?
>>
>> Yes. Twincast says 'You *MAY* choose new targets for the copy.' The key
>> word here is MAY, which means it is always optional. It's like Coastal
>> Piracy's

This is correct as written.

>I missed part of the question, obviously. If the original spell has an
>illegal target, the Twincasted version likely can't target it either.

Well, yes ... but that only matters if you are -changing- the targets. If
you don't change the targets at all, Twincast just makes an exact copy,
regardless of the current legality of the original spell's targets. If this
happens, the targets of the copy don't get checked until IT tries to resolve,
and at that point the normal procedure is followed (if one or more are legal
resolve it; if none are legal counter it).

>The question is, whether the Twincast can be played in response to what would
>make the target illegal.

Sure, in general. Note that Twincast does NOT ask, anywhere on the card,
if the _target_ spell's targets are currently legal. The rules say that if
you CHANGE the copy's targets, you can only change them to legal new targets
.... but the rules don't specify anything about having to somehow fiddle with
the copy if the copy gets made having illegal targets to start with, as an
exact copy of the original.

>I have White Knight out (protection from black).
>My opponent plays Fireball, targetting the Knight.
>In response, I play Mind Bend, targeting White Knight. One can infer that
>the selection will be to red, although this is no guarantee. [Mind Bend, U,
>Instant. Change the text of target permanent by replacing all instances of
>one color word with another or one basic land type with another. (For
>example, you may change "nonblack creature" to "nongreen creature" or
>"forestwalk" to "plainswalk." This effect doesn't end at end of turn.)]
>In response, my opponent plays Twincast, targetting the Fireball. One can
>infer that the target of the Twincast of the Fireball will be to the Knight,
>but again, this is not definite at this point.
>
>In this case, if all choices are made as indicated (Mind Bend changes the
>Knight's protection to Red, and the Twincast of the Fireball targets the
>Knight), then the Twincast of the Fireball will cause lethal damage to the
>Knight, as the Mind Bend would not have resolved yet. However, if the Mind
>Bend is allowed to resolve BEFORE Twincast is played, then the Knight will
>have had its protection changed to Red, the original Fireball would be
>countered on resolution due to illegal target,

Right ... but the original Fireball -has not yet been- so countered, as it
hasn't resolved yet.

>and so the Twincasted Fireball will need a target other than the
>White-Knight-that-became-a-Silver-Knight-with-a-different-name.

Nope. You can still choose to not change the target of the copy of the
Fireball. If you DO change it, it must change to a legal target. But if you
do NOT change it, you're simply making an exact copy, including the
currently-illegal target ... and are not changing or selecting targets in
any way.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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"David DeLaney" <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote in message
news:slrnda3lpe.orr.dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com...
> Erich Leibrock <eleibrock@symDELETETHECAPSpatico.ca> wrote:

Situation for this example:

Player A has White Knight in play; Player B targets White Knight with
Fireball for lethal damage; Player A plays Mind Bend targetting White
Knight, with the assumption that its protection will change from vs black to
vs red; Player B plays Twincast targetting Fireball, with the assumption
that the Twincast will target the Fireball.

>>In this case, if all choices are made as indicated (Mind Bend changes the
>>Knight's protection to Red, and the Twincast of the Fireball targets the
>>Knight), then the Twincast of the Fireball will cause lethal damage to the
>>Knight, as the Mind Bend would not have resolved yet.

[seperate scenario, same cards]

However, if the Mind
>>Bend is allowed to resolve BEFORE Twincast is played, then the Knight will
>>have had its protection changed to Red, the original Fireball would be
>>countered on resolution due to illegal target,
>
> Right ... but the original Fireball -has not yet been- so countered, as it
> hasn't resolved yet.

Well, I'm making a couple assumptions here, one being that no player holds
an actual countering spell a la Counterspell, Red/Blue Elemental Blast, or
whatnot. The second is that in the first scenario, Player B passed priority
from the Fireball to Player A, who used the opportunity to play Mind Bend,
then passed priority, which Player B picked up and Twincasted the Fireball;
in the second scenario, both players passed priority after Mind Bend was
played, allowing it to resolve, and THEN Twincast was played by Player B.

>>and so the Twincasted Fireball will need a target other than the
>>White-Knight-that-became-a-Silver-Knight-with-a-different-name.
>
> Nope. You can still choose to not change the target of the copy of the
> Fireball. If you DO change it, it must change to a legal target. But if
> you
> do NOT change it, you're simply making an exact copy, including the
> currently-illegal target ... and are not changing or selecting targets in
> any way.

So basically, what you're saying is this is one way to play a spell that has
an illegal target legally?

Erich

 

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Erich Leibrock <eleibrock@symDELETETHECAPSpatico.ca> wrote:

> So basically, what you're saying is this is one way to play a spell that has
> an illegal target legally?

You aren't playing it. You're making a copy of it appear with a loud
"pop" on top of the stack. Being a copy, it's exactly the same as the
original -- including the target choices made when the original was
played, if you don't choose to change them. The fact that they may or
may not be illegal does not change the fact that these were the choices
made when the spell was played -- and, as such, they got copied exactly
as they were.
If you choose to change them, you are forced to choose legal targets, of
course. But if you don't touch them, the game won't ask anything (until
resolution, that is).

- ∞

--
I miei post non sbagliano. E' la realta' ad essere inesatta.

 

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Erich Leibrock <eleibrock@symDELETETHECAPSpatico.ca> wrote:
>Player A has White Knight in play; Player B targets White Knight with
>Fireball for lethal damage; Player A plays Mind Bend targetting White
>Knight, with the assumption that its protection will change from vs black to
>vs red; Player B plays Twincast targetting Fireball, with the assumption
>that the Twincast will target the Fireball.
>
>> Nope. You can still choose to not change the target of the copy of the
>> Fireball. If you DO change it, it must change to a legal target. But if you
>> do NOT change it, you're simply making an exact copy, including the
>> currently-illegal target ... and are not changing or selecting targets in
>> any way.
>
>So basically, what you're saying is this is one way to play a spell that has
>an illegal target legally?

No - in fact, I'm actively trying to avoid saying exactly that. Are you
-playing- the copy that Twincast creates? No, you're not. (If you were, you
would need to choose targets for it regardless of what the original's targets
were, like with Isochron Scepter's copy spell.) You're just Xeroxing it, in
essence... and then maybe fiddling with it, but if you do fiddle with it
you have to make legal alterations.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.