Two Crumbling Sanctuaries in Play

[Dave]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hi all,

In a game last night, a friend had two Crumbling Sanctuaries in play.
He claimed that they would both trigger, causing a double mill for
each point of damage dealt, but it appeared to me that this was a
replacement effect, so that only one could work.

I checked the comprehensive rules on replacement effects, but it
still didn't seem clear to me. So do they both trigger or just one
of them?

Crumbling Sanctuary
5
Artifact
For each 1 damage that would be dealt to a player, that player removes
the top card of his or her library from the game instead.


- Dave
Magic: The Gathering card singles
http://www.destinationmtg.com

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"Dave" <im@not.telling> writes:
> In a game last night, a friend had two Crumbling Sanctuaries in play.
> He claimed that they would both trigger, causing a double mill for
> each point of damage dealt, but it appeared to me that this was a
> replacement effect, so that only one could work.
>
> I checked the comprehensive rules on replacement effects, but it
> still didn't seem clear to me. So do they both trigger or just one
> of them?
>
> Crumbling Sanctuary
> 5
> Artifact
> For each 1 damage that would be dealt to a player, that player removes
> the top card of his or her library from the game instead.

The word "instead" means that it is a replacement effect, and the lack
of the words "When", "Whenever", or "At" mean that it is not a
triggered ability.

So, if we have a spell like "Shock deals two damage to target creature
or player" trying to resolve, and two Sanctuaries are in play, there
are two things trying to replace the "damage would be dealt to a
player" event. The affected player chooses which one to apply
first. (This choice is not really relevant here, since both effects do
the same thing.) This transforms the event into "Targetted player
removes the top 2 cards of his or her library from the game.". Then,
we look to see if there are any replacement abilities trying to
replace the modified event. There aren't any (the other Sanctuary
doesn't apply anymore), so we're done figuring out what's going to
happen.

Therefore, each point of damage only removes one card.

Note that with some replacement effects, like Gratuitous Violence,
multiples do have a bigger result, because the replaced event *can* be
replaced by another of the same ability. (The higher damage amount is
still *damage*, and thus another replacement effect looking for damage
will see it.) But that isn't the case here, since removing cards from
your library isn't damage anymore.

I hope this helps. Please post again if you have any more questions.

--
Peter C.
"When you make chocolate chip cookies before breakfast, all need for
breakfast disappears."
-- Jessi

 

[Dave]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

"Peter Cooper Jr." <pete+mtg@cooper.homedns.org> wrote in message
news:868y8fmn2b.fsf@pcpc.cooper.homedns.org...
> "Dave" <im@not.telling> writes:
>> In a game last night, a friend had two Crumbling Sanctuaries in play.
>> He claimed that they would both trigger, causing a double mill for
>> each point of damage dealt, but it appeared to me that this was a
>> replacement effect, so that only one could work.

(snip)

> So, if we have a spell like "Shock deals two damage to target creature
> or player" trying to resolve, and two Sanctuaries are in play, there
> are two things trying to replace the "damage would be dealt to a
> player" event. The affected player chooses which one to apply
> first. (This choice is not really relevant here, since both effects do
> the same thing.) This transforms the event into "Targetted player
> removes the top 2 cards of his or her library from the game.". Then,
> we look to see if there are any replacement abilities trying to
> replace the modified event. There aren't any (the other Sanctuary
> doesn't apply anymore), so we're done figuring out what's going to
> happen.
>
> Therefore, each point of damage only removes one card.

(snip)

Perfect! Thanks for the answer!


- Dave
Magic: The Gathering card singles
http://www.destinationmtg.com

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Dave <im@not.telling> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> In a game last night, a friend had two Crumbling Sanctuaries in play.
> He claimed that they would both trigger, causing a double mill for
> each point of damage dealt, but it appeared to me that this was a
> replacement effect, so that only one could work.
>
> I checked the comprehensive rules on replacement effects, but it
> still didn't seem clear to me. So do they both trigger or just one
> of them?
>
> Crumbling Sanctuary
> 5
> Artifact
> For each 1 damage that would be dealt to a player, that player removes
> the top card of his or her library from the game instead.

I see no triggered ability here. A triggered ability begins with the
word "when," "whenever," or "at."

404. Triggered Abilities

404.1. A triggered ability begins with the word "when," "whenever," or
"at." The phrase containing one of these words is the trigger condition,
which defines the trigger event.

419. Replacement and Prevention Effects

419.1. Replacement and prevention effects are continuous effects that
watch for a particular event to happen and then completely or partially
replace that event. These effects act like "shields" around whatever
they're affecting.

419.1a Effects that use the word "instead" are replacement effects. Most
replacement effects use the word "instead" to indicate what events will
be replaced with other events and use the word "skip" to indicate what
events, steps, phases, or turns will be replaced with nothing.

The relevant rule is 419.9a; one replacement applies, and the other
becomes irrelevant.

419.9. Interaction of Replacement or Prevention Effects

419.9a If two or more replacement or prevention effects are attempting
to modify the way an event affects an object or player, the affected
object's controller (or its owner if it has no controller) or the
affected player chooses one to apply. Then the other effect applies if
it is still appropriate. If one or more of the applicable replacement
effects is a self-replacement effect (see rule 419.6d), that effect is
applied before any other replacement effects. If both players have to
make these choices at the same time, follow the "Active Player,
Nonactive Player rule" (see rule 103.4).
Example: Two cards are in play. One is an enchantment that reads "If a
card would be put into a graveyard, instead remove it from the game,"
and the other is a creature that reads "If [this creature] would be put
into a graveyard from play, instead shuffle it into its owner's
library." The controller of the creature that would be destroyed decides
which replacement to apply first; the other does nothing.

--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Fri, 3 Dec 2004 08:36:57 -0600, Dave <im@not.telling> wrote:
>In a game last night, a friend had two Crumbling Sanctuaries in play.
>He claimed that they would both trigger,

Neither one "triggers" at all. The text does not contain "When", "Whenever",
or "At" anywhere.

>causing a double mill for
>each point of damage dealt, but it appeared to me that this was a
>replacement effect, so that only one could work.

You are correct; one's effect will replace each point of damage, leaving the
other nothing to replace for that point.

>I checked the comprehensive rules on replacement effects, but it
>still didn't seem clear to me. So do they both trigger or just one of them?

Neither answer is correct; neither one triggers. One of them will replace
a point of damage, so the other one can't. The player getting damaged
chooses which Sanctuary will replace each point of damage, though generally
there's no difference between their effects...

>Crumbling Sanctuary >5 >Artifact
>For each 1 damage that would be dealt to a player, that player removes
>the top card of his or her library from the game instead.

Dave
--
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It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
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