[SOLVED] Two houses on one internet service

[.454]

I've read some threads on running internet to a backyard shed or barn, but I have a family property with two fully functioning houses on it. I have cable internet coming into house 1 now. If I bury a cat 5e or cat6 cable coming off the router and going 150' into house 2, then run a second router in that house are there any issues running all the smart devices, streaming TVs, home office, etc? I know 100 meters is max length for a run but how much can one cat5e or cat6 line support?

House 1 is the "old" house and has:
1 streaming TV working at any given time
Wifi used by smart phones, tablets, and occasionally a PC.

House 2 will have:
Home office with two PCs working full time during the week.
POE camera security system
2 to 3 streaming TVs
Tablets and phones using Wifi
Other small devices using Wifi (smart lock, wireless thermometer, etc).

 

[Darkbreeze]

150ft is much less than 100 meters. You can theoretically do about 300-330ft with Cat6 .

Others here can you give you more detailed specifics on the fine tuning of the network but I think as long as you run it in Access point/Repeater mode OR ensure that you are running on a different channel for your wireless setup, you shouldn't have any problems. This is exactly how I have the network configured between my house and garage which is about 100' away from the house router.

 

[lvt]

You need to use a fiber optic solution like this, the TC3210 is not very expensive.

 

[BFG-9000]

Two houses means two separate grounds, so should not be connected with copper data cables or some very large currents may occur on them to blow up your equipment. The mentioned fiber is the most reliable but another option is a Wifi wireless bridge, and 150' is achievable using repurposed normal consumer routers for this if you happen to have some spares already.

At least the barn or shed will usually share the same service drop which makes copper less dangerous, two houses don't

 

[SamirD]

If the two houses share some common grounding, the grounding differential may not be too much to worry about. But to be completely sure and if you're going to bury a cable anyways, might as well make it fibre and just get some switches that support an sfp like the Dell powerconnect 2724 which has 2x sfp uplinks and can be found used for $30 or less. It's also full gigabit unlike the TC3210 , which is 10/100.

I wouldn't mess with a wireless bridge as that adds additional latency. If your router can do vlans, you can easily have one vlan for one house and another for another. And if you don't, I believe the Dell 2724 has vlan support in their managed mode.

As far as worrying about too many devices--it really depends on your plan speeds and bandwidth usage.

 

[.454]

Electric service for the two houses are independent of eachother, so no common ground. A fiber line was something I never thought about and would have to learn more about it. As far as usage, we have a 200Mbps plan and we aren't starved for performance now using mostly the same devices all in one house, but will add some extra things in house2 when we move in. We could upgrade that at a later time if needed.

I'd like to run the connecting line in conduit. What size is necessary for a fiber line to pull it from house to house? It would be a fairly straight run with one 45* bend and two 90* elbows coming up at each end.

I want to stay away from wireless since our office is in house 2 and needs a completely reliable connection.

Thanks for the input so far, this is helpful.

 

[gggplaya]

I would just do direct burial ethernet and add some lightning arrestors. You don't need to overcomplicate things, but fiber would be the ultimate solution. If it were for a business, I'd probably do fiber, but for a house, I would just trench in direct burial ethernet.

 

[MJS WARLORD]

Hello 454 , i dont know what country your in but i am just wondering if you are over complicating things.
In england i am on something called bt broadband and their is a system where you can register yourself as a wi-fi hot spot , i registered myself as an available hot spot so when i go round different parts of the country and use my hot spot scanner i can use other peoples wi-fi. The same applies to me , other people can use my hub as a hot spot to access internet.

It might be worth asking your isp if they do this because then you could eliminate tons of cable.

 

[gggplaya]

Hello 454 , i dont know what country your in but i am just wondering if you are over complicating things.
In england i am on something called bt broadband and their is a system where you can register yourself as a wi-fi hot spot , i registered myself as an available hot spot so when i go round different parts of the country and use my hot spot scanner i can use other peoples wi-fi. The same applies to me , other people can use my hub as a hot spot to access internet.

It might be worth asking your isp if they do this because then you could eliminate tons of cable.

The problem with that is, if you use FTTC, then it's most likely copper lines running from the cabinet to your house. You max speed is what, 50mbps? Someone else on your network could cripple it with a large file download.

 

[lvt]

Hello 454 , i dont know what country your in but i am just wondering if you are over complicating things.
In england i am on something called bt broadband and their is a system where you can register yourself as a wi-fi hot spot , i registered myself as an available hot spot so when i go round different parts of the country and use my hot spot scanner i can use other peoples wi-fi. The same applies to me , other people can use my hub as a hot spot to access internet.

It might be worth asking your isp if they do this because then you could eliminate tons of cable.

It won't work that way for most of people.

If I pay $50 a month for my Internet, I want the whole thing, not sharing with anyone else.

 

[.454]

Running a hard line, whether it's fiber or copper, between the two houses won't be extremely difficult, I'm just trying to find the best way to do it to have a shared network for the whole property.

 

[gggplaya]

Are both houses for your family? Or are you renting one out to someone else? If it's the latter, I would put them on a separate VLAN so they can only access the internet and not your house.

 

[.454]

Are both houses for your family? Or are you renting one out to someone else? If it's the latter, I would put them on a separate VLAN so they can only access the internet and not your house.

All family here and we're constantly moving back and forth between places. If it was rental then it would get its own service for sure.

 

[kanewolf]

All family here and we're constantly moving back and forth between places. If it was rental then it would get its own service for sure.

Even with family, you do need to check with your ISP. You may be violating terms of service by having a single account on two physical addresses.

 

[.454]

Even with family, you do need to check with your ISP. You may be violating terms of service by having a single account on two physical addresses.

Good thing to point out. In my case the two homes are on one property owned by me and the connecting cable wouldn't cross any lot lines.

 

[gggplaya]

Same mailing address, 2 buildings should be fine. Should you ever split the other building and designate it as an apartment. That would be a problem of course.

 

[punkncat]

For bandwidth I like the idea presented by @lvt.

Considering the number of devices in the "2nd" house I would probably have the main connection brought in there. According to some facts about your TOS as pointed out by @kanewolf .....

I might consider direct burial cable and internet run via some PVC. Extend the cable into the 2nd and put your modem there. Run back the direct burial CAT line to a switch in the 1st.
Given the distance you might need a signal booster (for the cable). You would find out after doing so and seeing if you have sync on the modem.

 

[SamirD]

Electric service for the two houses are independent of eachother, so no common ground. A fiber line was something I never thought about and would have to learn more about it. As far as usage, we have a 200Mbps plan and we aren't starved for performance now using mostly the same devices all in one house, but will add some extra things in house2 when we move in. We could upgrade that at a later time if needed.

I'd like to run the connecting line in conduit. What size is necessary for a fiber line to pull it from house to house? It would be a fairly straight run with one 45* bend and two 90* elbows coming up at each end.

I want to stay away from wireless since our office is in house 2 and needs a completely reliable connection.

Thanks for the input so far, this is helpful.

Gotcha. With them being so close to each other though, I wonder if they truly have separate grounds or are tied into the same one as contractors do 'take shortcuts'.

Fibre is really easy with preterminated fibre available. I never used the stuff myself either until I got some to play with--very, very simple and aside from being delicate, they're pretty much just like ethernet cables in terms of use. Another plus is that you'd be ready for any faster speeds--2.5/5/10/etc.

If running conduit, I would run no less than 2", especially with those type of bends, which fibre won't like. Make everything 45 even if that means breaking up the 90s with 2x 45 deg. And hell you could even go with a 2.5"-3" conduit if you want.

Another idea would be to run moca over coax, but again that would deal with the grounding issue. The difference is with coax is that you can find very durable direct burial wire so you could save the expense of a conduit. Personally, I still like fibre.

And since you want everything on one network, the Dell powerconnects would be great switches to use on each end. I have several of these I use in unmanaged mode (they have both an unmanaged and managed modes) and they're rock solid even though they can be data center loud (48-port versions). I'd get one 24 port for each house (model 2724) and then connect them up using the fibre and sfps--you'll have a nice number of ethernet ports, a reliable switch, and your fibre media converter (with a second as a backup) essentially in one box for <$30/ea.

And I wouldn't worry about TOS violations. If people read their TOS more than 50% of the users would be in violation somewhere somehow. (Did you servers of any type are typically not allowed? yeah--violation.)

 

[Darkbreeze]

I think the first thing to determine would be whether each building has it's own leg to the main power line or whether the second property is branched out of the panel for the main building, if grounding issues are what concerns you. In my case, even though the garage is a ways from the house, it's power is branched off the panel for the house. Many properties with separate garages, out buildings, "guest" or "mother in law" type buildings that were build AFTER the primary dwelling might well, and often, be this way too if the panel had enough unused slots to support the secondary building. Sure, a lot of people will say this is not the correct way for it to have been done BUT I have seen MANY contractors and electricians do this and many inspectors sign off on it.

 

[gggplaya]

I think the first thing to determine would be whether each building has it's own leg to the main power line or whether the second property is branched out of the panel for the main building, if grounding issues are what concerns you. In my case, even though the garage is a ways from the house, it's power is branched off the panel for the house. Many properties with separate garages, out buildings, "guest" or "mother in law" type buildings that were build AFTER the primary dwelling might well, and often, be this way too if the panel had enough unused slots to support the secondary building. Sure, a lot of people will say this is not the correct way for it to have been done BUT I have seen MANY contractors and electricians do this and many inspectors sign off on it.

My separate garage was done this way, with a sub panel branched from the main panel in the house. Even so, the ground is separate from the house as the sub panel has it's own ground wire to it's own ground rod. The neutral wire is the same and runs back to the main house.

 

[SamirD]

I think the first thing to determine would be whether each building has it's own leg to the main power line or whether the second property is branched out of the panel for the main building, if grounding issues are what concerns you. In my case, even though the garage is a ways from the house, it's power is branched off the panel for the house. Many properties with separate garages, out buildings, "guest" or "mother in law" type buildings that were build AFTER the primary dwelling might well, and often, be this way too if the panel had enough unused slots to support the secondary building. Sure, a lot of people will say this is not the correct way for it to have been done BUT I have seen MANY contractors and electricians do this and many inspectors sign off on it.

Yep, and even when the power is still newly run from the pole/underground, the same existing ground is tied into as the first structure. I've seen a lot of this too.

 

[Darkbreeze]

Yep, and even when the power is still newly run from the pole/underground, the same existing ground is tied into as the first structure. I've seen a lot of this too.

Yes, as have I. Even with separate feeds from the pole. There are definitely a variety of ways in which electricians might do some things and even legally different ways depending on the local codes and rules.

 

[.454]

I think the first thing to determine would be whether each building has it's own leg to the main power line or whether the second property is branched out of the panel for the main building, if grounding issues are what concerns you. In my case, even though the garage is a ways from the house, it's power is branched off the panel for the house. Many properties with separate garages, out buildings, "guest" or "mother in law" type buildings that were build AFTER the primary dwelling might well, and often, be this way too if the panel had enough unused slots to support the secondary building. Sure, a lot of people will say this is not the correct way for it to have been done BUT I have seen MANY contractors and electricians do this and many inspectors sign off on it.

I know for a fact the two homes are not grounded together. The second home is newly built and has its own drop and meter from the power company. It's not an outbuilding or in-law suite. No utilities are shared.

The fiber option has me intrigued and doesn't seem overly complicated.

 

[Darkbreeze]

Admittedly, networking hardware is not my strongest, or even strong, area, but I'm interested in knowing (Since it relates to the OP anyhow) why it is believed that having separate grounds offers distinctly different protection from lightning strikes, surges, brown outs or other "large currents" as mentioned by BFG-9000 when using fiber as compared to ethernet, since the outdoor fiber generally has a metal protective outer core and the devices themselves, such as switches and routers, are definitely prone. Is it because of the distance back to the ground or why?

I just understand why using fiber if using one ground makes any difference.

Although the signals in fiber cables are optical signals, most of the outdoor optical cables using reinforced cores or armored optical cables are easy to get damaged under lightning because of the metal protective layer inside the cable.

Seems like using sacrificial protective devices, as mentioned (And downvoted, boo) by gggplaya, is a good option regardless of ANY other considerations.

https://community.fs.com/blog/how-to-build-lightning-protection-system-for-fiber-optic-cables.html

Again, not contradicting anybody, simply asking for myself and for the OP, for clarification as to WHY the previous recommendations were made for this scenario?

 

[SamirD]

My understanding of the reasoning behind fiber, which I picked up secondhand from another networking forum, is that any difference in the ground between the two locations connected together will generate a current on the ground. And since copper ethernet is grounded on each end and would be to two different grounds (as OP has clarified), there would be a current generated. Now, it could be absolutely minuscule if the two ground rods are inches away from each other, or could be truly a lot if they're in different soils and hundreds of feet apart. The best way to not even have this issue is via fiber optics since there are no voltages and just light as the sfp units are part of the switch on each end and are grounded locally there.

Hope this helps!