Two Noobie Questions

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

So if I've got:

Amber Prison (Artifact):
You may choose not to untap Amber Prison during your untap phase.
4, tap: Tap target artifact, creature, or land. As long as Amber Prison
remains tapped, that permanent does not untap during its controller's untap
phase.

And in my turn I pay 4 and tap it to tap my opponent's Prodigal Sorcerer - I
guess my opponent couldn't use Prodigal Sorceror's ability as an 'instant'?

"Simon Nejmann" <snejmann@worldonline.REMOVETHIS.dk> wrote in message
news:b0gpv0t3uka1fbb33cc2igefbqn1qv5cq0@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 10:49:59 -0000, "Sentinel"
> <robbuchanan@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Last question on this (honest)! So if I turn the magma mine / shatter
>>scenario around:
>>
>>I announce I'm gonna blow Magma Mine first,
>>my opponent plays shatter,
>>we both pass priority so the last in (shatter) would take effect and
>>destroy
>>Magma Mine,
>>Magma Mine is no longer in play to do damage - end of stack.
>>
>>Is that right?
>
> No.
> A) The ability on the stack is independant of the source.
> B) The Mine is sacrificed when you announce that you play its "blow
> up" ability, so the opponent can't target it with his shatter to begin
> with.
>
> Lets take two new cards:
>
> Prodigal Sorcerer
> {2}{U}
> Creature -- Wizard
> 1/1
> {T}: ~this~ deals 1 damage to target creature or player.
>
> Myr Servitor
> {1}
> Artifact Creature -- Myr
> 1/1
> At the beginning of your upkeep, if ~this~ is in play, each player
> returns all cards named Myr Servitor from his or her graveyard to
> play.
>
>
> Scenario 1:
> You tap Prodigal Sorcerer targeting your opponent.
> In response he plays Terror targeting the Prodigal Sorcerer.
> Terror resolves destroying the Prodigal Sorcerer who goes to the
> graveyard.
> The ability from Prodigal Sorcerer resolves damaging the opponent for
> 1 damage.
>
> The ability was on the stack and was not countered, thus it resolved
> and got to deal its damage - regardless of what happens to its source.
>
>
> Scenario 2:
> It is the beginning of your upkeep, thus the ability of your Myr
> Servitor triggers and goes on the stack.
> Your opponent responds by playing Shatter targeting it.
> Shatter resolves destroying the Myr Servitor who goes to the
> graveyard.
> The ability from Myr Servitor resolves, but has an "if ~this~ is in
> play" clause - this clause is clearly not true, and thus the ability
> DoesNothing.
>
>
> In the case of the Magma Mine there is nothing your opponent can do
> with only a Shatter. You will always be able to respond by blowing it
> up in his head - unless, of course, it for some reason got tapped.
>
> --
> Regards
> Simon Nejmann

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Sentinel wrote:

> So if I've got:
>
> Amber Prison (Artifact):
> You may choose not to untap Amber Prison during your untap phase.
> 4, tap: Tap target artifact, creature, or land. As long as Amber Prison
> remains tapped, that permanent does not untap during its controller's
> untap phase.
>
> And in my turn I pay 4 and tap it to tap my opponent's Prodigal Sorcerer -
> I guess my opponent couldn't use Prodigal Sorceror's ability as an
> 'instant'?
>
No, you're still not getting it. You must make the distinction between
costs and effects. Costs are payed when the spell or ability is played.
Effects happen when the spell or ability resolves. Activated abilities
list their costs before the colon; the effects come after the colon.
That is how you know an ability listed on a card is an activated ability:
it is written in the form "Cost : Effect". So let's take your scenario
You activate the Amber Prison, identifying the Prodigal as its target
and then expending four mana from your mana pool and tapping it to pay
for the ability. The *effect* of tapping the Prodigal Sorcerer goes on
the stack. You pass. Your opponent now gets priority. His Sorcerer
is *not yet tapped*. He may activate it, and he does so, identifying
the target for the one point of damage, and tapping the Sorcerer to pay
for the ability. The abilities then resolve, first the Sorcerer's
point of the damage, and then the Amber Prison, which taps the
tapped Sorcerer, doing Nothing Observable. Not entirely without point,
however, since the Sorcerer will not untap again as long as you keep
the Prison tapped.

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Sentinel <robbuchanan@hotmail.com> wrote:
>Amber Prison (Artifact):
>You may choose not to untap Amber Prison during your untap phase.
>4, tap: Tap target artifact, creature, or land. As long as Amber Prison
>remains tapped, that permanent does not untap during its controller's untap
>phase.
>
>And in my turn I pay 4 and tap it to tap my opponent's Prodigal Sorcerer - I
>guess my opponent couldn't use Prodigal Sorceror's ability as an 'instant'?

Wrong guess again; nothing on the Sorcerer _says_ "Play this only any time you
could play a Sorcery". Aactivated abilities default to being playable any
time you have priority, which is the same as "any time you could play an
instant".

He can't play its ability 'as an instant', because it's not a spell, and
Instants are spells. But he can play its ability any _time_ he could play an
Instant spell. This means he can play its ability as a response to something
else that uses the stack, just fine, and in particular that he can use the
Sorcerer in response to the Prison's ability.

The Prison's ability doesn't stop most tap-cost activated abilities from being
usable _now_; what it does is say "use it now, or become unable to use it
after the Prison taps it".

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Q: Are we not men? A: We are Sentinel!
> And in my turn I pay 4 and tap it to tap my opponent's Prodigal Sorcerer - I
> guess my opponent couldn't use Prodigal Sorceror's ability as an 'instant'?

Almost all your questions are of the form "If I do X, my opponent can't
use ability Y as an instant, right?" That assumption has been incorrect
in nearly every case; almost nothing can prevent an ability from being
*played*, though lots of things can prevent it from doing anything
useful. In this case, you haven't done anything that would prevent
instants or activated abilities from being played in response to the
Amber Prison activation. The target of the Amber Prison ability isn't
under any special constraints until the Amber Prison ability *resolves*;
your opponent can ALWAYS, repeat, ALWAYS play instants and activated
abilities before that happens, and have them resolve *first*.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

yes all true



"David DeLaney" <dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com> wrote in message
news:slrncvq5vn.gop.dbd@gatekeeper.vic.com...
Jonathan Fourie <jonathan@jonREMOVEathan.za.net> wrote:
>If you do not want to your opponent to use his Fyndhorn Elder as a mana
>source to cast spells, you could activate your wizard to tap his elder
>during his upkeep. He will not be able to use the mana to cast spells,

Good idea so far, and strategically sound...

>because the mana will have to be used before the upkeep step is over.

Not correct. Manaburn is checked for at end of phase, and the upkeep step's
end doesn't end Beginning phase, the draw step's end does.

He still won't be able to get the mana in upkeep and "float" it over into
main phase, though. (Contrast this to the green "burnless" mana a few cards
produce in Betrayers...)

>(He may choose not to put the mana into his mana pool, the tapping ability
>of
>your wizard does not force him to use the elder's ability, but just taps
>it.)

Correct.


--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the
flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to
see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET
VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all
CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005, Sentinel wrote:

>Last question on this (honest)! So if I turn the magma mine / shatter
>scenario around:
>
>I announce I'm gonna blow Magma Mine first,
>my opponent plays shatter,
>we both pass priority so the last in (shatter) would take effect and destroy
>Magma Mine,
>Magma Mine is no longer in play to do damage - end of stack.
>
>Is that right?

No.

When you announced your Magma Mine was going off, you paid it's cost.
That cost IMMEDIATELY put the Magma Mine in your graveyard. It also put
an invisible intangible thing on the stack: i.e. your Magma Mine's
activated ability. There is no more Magma Mine. But there is an
invisible thing sitting on the stack waiting to do your opponent damage
when it resolves.

Since there is no magma mine after you finish announcing it's activation,
your opponent can't shatter it. (It's *already* in your graveyard.) He
could, however use a "Stifle" to counter the activated ability sitting on
top of the stack.

Alcore


--
Alcore Nilth - The Mad Alchemist of Gevbeck
alcore@uurth.com

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005, Simon Nejmann wrote:

>Prodigal Sorcerer
>{2}{U}
>Creature -- Wizard
>1/1
>{T}: ~this~ deals 1 damage to target creature or player.
[snip]

>Scenario 1:
>You tap Prodigal Sorcerer targeting your opponent.
>In response he plays Terror targeting the Prodigal Sorcerer.
>Terror resolves destroying the Prodigal Sorcerer who goes to the
>graveyard.
>The ability from Prodigal Sorcerer resolves damaging the opponent for
>1 damage.
>
>The ability was on the stack and was not countered, thus it resolved
>and got to deal its damage - regardless of what happens to its source.

Umm, no.

Since the Prodigal Sorcerer's ability says that *it* deals the damage, the
damage *will not* be dealt if it leaves play prior to the resolution of
the ability.

There are other "Tims" that do as you suggest though.



--
Alcore Nilth - The Mad Alchemist of Gevbeck
alcore@uurth.com

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Sun, 30 Jan 2005, Sentinel wrote:

>So if I've got:
>
>Amber Prison (Artifact):
>You may choose not to untap Amber Prison during your untap phase.
>4, tap: Tap target artifact, creature, or land. As long as Amber Prison
>remains tapped, that permanent does not untap during its controller's untap
>phase.
>
>And in my turn I pay 4 and tap it to tap my opponent's Prodigal Sorcerer - I
>guess my opponent couldn't use Prodigal Sorceror's ability as an 'instant'?

Yes, he can... Once.

The Amber Prison has 2 effects when you activate it:
1. Tap the target.
2. The target does not untap as normal during the opponent's untap step.

So, you activate the Amber Prison and target the Prodigal Sorcerer. This
places your AP ability on the stack - but doesn't actually do anything
yet.

When your opponent gets priority, he taps his Prodigal Sorcerer and puts
it's poke ability on the stack.

You both pass... and the poke resolves.

You both pass... The Prodigal Sorcerer is *Already* tapped... so the first
ability of Amber Prison is countered. But it's still a legal target, so
the Prodigal Sorcerer will not untap in the normal way until Amber Prison
does.

Alcore



--
Alcore Nilth - The Mad Alchemist of Gevbeck
alcore@uurth.com

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005, Sentinel wrote:

>Thanks for everyone's help on this! I've given one more simple example below
>to see if I've got it yet - could someone 'mark' for me?
>
>Player A taps Prodigal Sourcerer to deal 1 damage to Player B's Prodigal
>Sourcerer (PS), so the damage effect enters the stack.
>
>Player B takes priority & returns the favour by tapping his PS to deal 1
>damage to Player A's PS, so the damage effect is the next on the stack.
>
>Both players pass priority so the last effect that entered the stack deals
>one damage and kills Player A's PS ('cos the stack is L I F O).
>
>Both players pass priority again so the first effect that went into the
>stack takes effect and deals one damage and kills Player B's PS.

The Prodigal Sorcerer Oracle text says the "Prodigal Sorcerer deals one
point of damage to target creature or player".

Since the PS must exist to do the damage, the effect is that Player B's PS
kills player A's PS before it can do the damage. When the activated
ability of player A's PS resolves, the PS that is supposed to do the
damage will no longer exist and the effect will fizzle.

Alcore


--
Alcore Nilth - The Mad Alchemist of Gevbeck
alcore@uurth.com

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Gene P. <alcore@uurth.com> wrote:

> On Sun, 30 Jan 2005, Simon Nejmann wrote:
>
> >Prodigal Sorcerer
> >{2}{U}
> >Creature -- Wizard
> >1/1
> >{T}: ~this~ deals 1 damage to target creature or player.
> [snip]
>
> >Scenario 1:
> >You tap Prodigal Sorcerer targeting your opponent.
> >In response he plays Terror targeting the Prodigal Sorcerer.
> >Terror resolves destroying the Prodigal Sorcerer who goes to the
> >graveyard.
> >The ability from Prodigal Sorcerer resolves damaging the opponent for
> >1 damage.
> >
> >The ability was on the stack and was not countered, thus it resolved
> >and got to deal its damage - regardless of what happens to its source.
>
> Umm, no.
>
> Since the Prodigal Sorcerer's ability says that *it* deals the damage, the
> damage *will not* be dealt if it leaves play prior to the resolution of
> the ability.

Incorrect. It will.

402.6. Once activated or triggered, an ability exists independently of
its source as an ability on the stack. Destruction or removal of the
source after that time won't affect the ability. Note that some
abilities cause a source to do something (for example, "Prodigal
Sorcerer deals 1 damage to target creature or player") rather than the
ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or
triggered ability that references information about the source will
check that information when the ability resolves, or will use the
source's last known information if it's no longer in play.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Gene P. wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, 30 Jan 2005, Simon Nejmann wrote:
>
>>Prodigal Sorcerer
>>{2}{U}
>>Creature -- Wizard
>>1/1
>>{T}: ~this~ deals 1 damage to target creature or player.
> [snip]
>
>>Scenario 1:
>>You tap Prodigal Sorcerer targeting your opponent.
>>In response he plays Terror targeting the Prodigal Sorcerer.
>>Terror resolves destroying the Prodigal Sorcerer who goes to the
>>graveyard.
>>The ability from Prodigal Sorcerer resolves damaging the opponent for
>>1 damage.
>>
>>The ability was on the stack and was not countered, thus it resolved
>>and got to deal its damage - regardless of what happens to its source.
>
> Umm, no.
>
> Since the Prodigal Sorcerer's ability says that *it* deals the damage, the
> damage *will not* be dealt if it leaves play prior to the resolution of
> the ability.

Umm, no. Not, nyet, nein, nix, no way. Once an effect is on the stack,
the *only*, repeat, underscore, ONLY way it does not resolve is if it
is countered. Doing away with source of the effect does not affect it
in the slightest.
>
> There are other "Tims" that do as you suggest though.
>
>
>

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Brings up a question that has bugged me for years...

Daniel W. Johnson (panoptes@iquest.net) wrote:

: 402.6. Once activated or triggered, an ability exists independently of
: its source as an ability on the stack.

OK. This is nice, simple, and intuitive. Once "launched", an
ability is an independent entity. Fine.

: Destruction or removal of the
: source after that time won't affect the ability.

Fits perfectly. Ability is independent.

: Note that some
: abilities cause a source to do something (for example, "Prodigal
: Sorcerer deals 1 damage to target creature or player") rather than the
: ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or
: triggered ability that references information about the source will
: check that information when the ability resolves, or will use the
: source's last known information if it's no longer in play.

Does *not* fit perfectly. Why, if an ability becomes independent
once activated/triggered, is it able to refer back to its source
for any reason after being a/t'ed? To be truly independent, and
to follow the logic of the first parts of this rule, any and all
information regarding the ability (damage colour, source type,
etc., etc.) should be locked in once it gets onto the stack.
Changing the source should not affect the ability any more than
changing the ability affects the source.

Why are removal of source and change to source treated differently?

An example of the difference, using good ol' Tim:

Version 1:

A: Tap PS for 1 point damage targeting Order of Leitbur (2/1 pro-
black). Assume nothing else relevant in play except mana sources.
B: Cast Terror targeting PS. All pass.
Terror resolves, PS goes to graveyard.
PS ability resolves, O-of-L takes 1 point damage, dies, and goes to
graveyard.

Version 2:

A: tap PS for 1 point damage targeting Order of Leitbur, as above.
B: cast Deathlace targeting PS. All pass.
Deathlace resolves, PS becomes black.
PS ability tries to resolve but as source is now black, damage is
now black, O-of-L has pro-black, nothing happens.

What is the rationale or logic for treating removal and change
differently like this? In version 2, changing the source to
black after the ability has been launched should not affect
it *if the ability is truly independent*. (this is the intuitive
way, as per the first sentence of 402.6.)

I know I'm not putting this very clearly; I'm hoping you
understand my confusion here.



Keith

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Thanks for everyone's help on this! I've given one more simple example below
to see if I've got it yet - could someone 'mark' for me?

Player A taps Prodigal Sourcerer to deal 1 damage to Player B's Prodigal
Sourcerer (PS), so the damage effect enters the stack.

Player B takes priority & returns the favour by tapping his PS to deal 1
damage to Player A's PS, so the damage effect is the next on the stack.

Both players pass priority so the last effect that entered the stack deals
one damage and kills Player A's PS ('cos the stack is L I F O).

Both players pass priority again so the first effect that went into the
stack takes effect and deals one damage and kills Player B's PS.

= Two dead PS's?

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Gene P. <alcore@uurth.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 30 Jan 2005, Simon Nejmann wrote:
>>Scenario 1:
>>You tap Prodigal Sorcerer targeting your opponent.
>>In response he plays Terror targeting the Prodigal Sorcerer.
>>Terror resolves destroying the Prodigal Sorcerer who goes to the
>>graveyard.
>>The ability from Prodigal Sorcerer resolves damaging the opponent for
>>1 damage.
>>
>>The ability was on the stack and was not countered, thus it resolved
>>and got to deal its damage - regardless of what happens to its source.
>
>Umm, no.
>
>Since the Prodigal Sorcerer's ability says that *it* deals the damage, the
>damage *will not* be dealt if it leaves play prior to the resolution of
>the ability.

This is Not Correct. This is so not-correct it's not funny, even.

Yes, the Tim is not there on resolution. THIS DOES NOT STOP IT FROM BEING THE
SOURCE OF THE 1 DAMAGE. It ALSO does not stop the ability from resolving, and
does not stop the ability from having Tim deal the damage. The rulebook
specifically uses Tim in the rule that talks about this:

402.6. Once activated or triggered, an ability exists independently of its
source as an ability on the stack. Destruction or removal of the source after
that time won't affect the ability. Note that some abilities cause a source to
do something (for example, "Prodigal Sorcerer deals 1 damage to target creature
or player") rather than the ability doing anything directly. In these cases,
any activated or triggered ability that references information about the source
will check that information when the ability resolves, or will use the source's
last known information if it's no longer in play.

This means that the ability still deals the damage, and if anything is asking
"what does the source of the damage look like - is it blue? is it red? is
it a Sorcery? is it a creature? etc.", they get given the information about
what Tim looked like as he left play.

>There are other "Tims" that do as you suggest though.

All the "Tims" follow the above rule.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Chris Mattern <matternc@comcast.net> wrote:
>Umm, no. Not, nyet, nein, nix, no way. Once an effect is on the stack,
>the *only*, repeat, underscore, ONLY way it does not resolve is if it
>is countered. Doing away with source of the effect does not affect it
>in the slightest.

Well, there's two other ways, but one involves ending the game, and the other
involves ending the turn early. Neither involve "doing something to the
source of the ability affects the ability", agreed.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Gene P. <alcore@uurth.com> wrote:
>On Sun, 30 Jan 2005, Sentinel wrote:
>>Amber Prison (Artifact):
>>You may choose not to untap Amber Prison during your untap phase.
>>4, tap: Tap target artifact, creature, or land. As long as Amber Prison
>>remains tapped, that permanent does not untap during its controller's untap
>>phase.
>>
>>And in my turn I pay 4 and tap it to tap my opponent's Prodigal Sorcerer - I
>>guess my opponent couldn't use Prodigal Sorceror's ability as an 'instant'?
>
>Yes, he can... Once.
>
>The Amber Prison has 2 effects when you activate it:
>1. Tap the target.
>2. The target does not untap as normal during the opponent's untap step.
>
>So, you activate the Amber Prison and target the Prodigal Sorcerer. This
>places your AP ability on the stack - but doesn't actually do anything
>yet.
>
>When your opponent gets priority, he taps his Prodigal Sorcerer and puts
>it's poke ability on the stack.

"its". Right otherwise.

>You both pass... and the poke resolves.
>
>You both pass... The Prodigal Sorcerer is *Already* tapped...

Right.

>so the first ability of Amber Prison is countered.

?? No. The first ability of Amber Prison is "You may choose not to untap ~
during your untap step.", and the second ability, the activated one, is not
countered in this instance - its TARGET is perfectly legal. It simply fails
to have any visible effect on the already-tapped Tim. It -resolves- normally,
but Does Nothing right then. It will still hold Tim down as long as the
Prison stays tapped.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 21:56:11 -0000, Sentinel <nospam@ever.com> wrote:
>Thanks for everyone's help on this! I've given one more simple example below
>to see if I've got it yet - could someone 'mark' for me?
>
>Player A taps Prodigal Sourcerer to deal 1 damage to Player B's Prodigal
>Sourcerer (PS), so the damage effect enters the stack.

The 'ability'. A spell or ability has an 'effect' on resolution; before then
it's not an 'effect'. So you've got A's Tim's ability on the stack, targetting
B's Tim; right.

>Player B takes priority

Well... he can't "take" it, he has to get given it. But assuming A passes, then
yes, B gets priority.

>& returns the favour by tapping his PS to deal 1
>damage to Player A's PS, so the damage effect is the next on the stack.

Right, same qualifications as above. Now we have B's Tim's ability, targetting
A's Tim, on top of the stack, with A's Tim's ability, targetting B's Tim,
under it.

>Both players pass priority so the last effect that entered the stack deals
>one damage and kills Player A's PS ('cos the stack is L I F O).

Right. Topmost thing is always the next to resolve. A's Tim dies, because it
took 1 damage (from B's Tim) and only has 1 toughness. So it gets destroyed.

>Both players pass priority again so the first effect that went into the
>stack takes effect and deals one damage and kills Player B's PS.

Right. This time, A's Tim's ability resolves, because it doesn't care that
A's Tim is already dead. The ability deals 1 damage to B's Tim; if something
wanted to know where the damage was -from-, the game would give it the info
about A's Tim the last time it was in play ("blue, creature, 1/1, Wizard,
controlled by A", etc.). This destroys B's Tim a moment later, as state-based
effects get checked.

>= Two dead PS's?

= Two dead PSes, yes.

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Gene P. <alcore@uurth.com> wrote:
>On Mon, 31 Jan 2005, Sentinel wrote:
>>Both players pass priority again so the first effect that went into the
>>stack takes effect and deals one damage and kills Player B's PS.

Correct.

>The Prodigal Sorcerer Oracle text says the "Prodigal Sorcerer deals one
>point of damage to target creature or player".

Yes.

>Since the PS must exist to do the damage,

This is incorrect; please stop repeating this. I am not sure where you have
picked this up, but it's not true. The ability is what is causing Tim to
deal the damage, and does not say anything about "if Prodigal Sorcerer is
still in play". The 1 damage gets dealt. 402.6 specifically notes this exact
situation as going opposite to how you are thinking of it, and says why.

>the effect is that Player B's PS
>kills player A's PS before it can do the damage.

Yes.

>When the activated
>ability of player A's PS resolves, the PS that is supposed to do the
>damage will no longer exist

Yes.

>and the effect will fizzle.

Nope. It will not "fizzle" or get countered; its TARGET is still quite legal.
It will not 'fail to do anything because it can't'; it is still quite capable
of saying "You - you are being dealt 1 damage. It is from A's Prodigal
Sorcerer, which isn't here now, I admit, but which looked like such-and-such
the last time we saw it in play".

Take a look, if you will, at Mogg Fanatic:

Mogg Fanatic R Creature - Goblin
1/1 Sacrifice ~: ~ deals 1 damage to target creature or player.

If your interpretation were correct, how could this ability ever work at all?

Dave
--
\/David DeLaney posting from dbd@vic.com "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
http://www.vic.com/~dbd/ - net.legends FAQ & Magic / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Sentinel <nospam@ever.com> sent:
> Thanks for everyone's help on this! I've given one more simple example below
> to see if I've got it yet - could someone 'mark' for me?

> Player A taps Prodigal Sourcerer to deal 1 damage to Player B's Prodigal
> Sourcerer (PS), so the damage effect enters the stack.

> Player B takes priority & returns the favour by tapping his PS to deal 1
> damage to Player A's PS, so the damage effect is the next on the stack.

> Both players pass priority so the last effect that entered the stack deals
> one damage and kills Player A's PS ('cos the stack is L I F O).

> Both players pass priority again so the first effect that went into the
> stack takes effect and deals one damage and kills Player B's PS.

> = Two dead PS's?

Exactly. Even though Player A's Prodigal Sorceror was destroyed by
lethal damage and put in the graveyard before its own ability
resolved, that ability can still resolve just fine. Abilities don't
generally require their sources to be around when they resolve,
just their targets. Grade A.

--
-- zoe - slightly updated FAQ coming Real Soon Now!

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Gene P. <alcore@uurth.com> sent:
> On Mon, 31 Jan 2005, Sentinel wrote:

>>Thanks for everyone's help on this! I've given one more simple example below
>>to see if I've got it yet - could someone 'mark' for me?
>>
>>Player A taps Prodigal Sourcerer to deal 1 damage to Player B's Prodigal
>>Sourcerer (PS), so the damage effect enters the stack.
>>
>>Player B takes priority & returns the favour by tapping his PS to deal 1
>>damage to Player A's PS, so the damage effect is the next on the stack.
>>
>>Both players pass priority so the last effect that entered the stack deals
>>one damage and kills Player A's PS ('cos the stack is L I F O).
>>
>>Both players pass priority again so the first effect that went into the
>>stack takes effect and deals one damage and kills Player B's PS.

> The Prodigal Sorcerer Oracle text says the "Prodigal Sorcerer deals one
> point of damage to target creature or player".

> Since the PS must exist to do the damage, the effect is that Player B's PS
> kills player A's PS before it can do the damage. When the activated
> ability of player A's PS resolves, the PS that is supposed to do the
> damage will no longer exist and the effect will fizzle.

Bzzzt, /nil points/. From the Comprehensive Rulebook:

402.6. Once activated or triggered, an ability exists independently
of its source as an ability on the stack. Destruction or removal of
the source after that time won't affect the ability. Note that some
abilities cause a source to do something (for example, "Prodigal
Sorcerer deals 1 damage to target creature or player") rather than
the ability doing anything directly. In these cases, any activated or
triggered ability that references information about the source will
check that information when the ability resolves, or will use the
source's last known information if it's no longer in play.

You may be mixing this up with the rule for targets:

413.2a If the spell or ability specifies targets, it checks whether
the targets are still legal. A target that's removed from play, or
from the zone designated by the spell or ability, is illegal. A
target may also become illegal if its characteristics changed since
the spell or ability was played or if an effect changed the text of
the spell. If all targets are now illegal, the spell or ability is
countered. If the spell or ability is not countered, it will resolve
normally, affecting only the targets that are still legal. If a
target is illegal, the spell or ability can't perform any actions on
it or make the target perform any actions. If the spell or ability
needs to know information about one or more targets that are now
illegal, it will use the illegal targets' current or last known
information.

So, in a nutshell:

Pay costs when you announce the ability. Tapping, sacrificing, what
ever you have to do, it happens right there. Can't be interfered with
by other players.

Source of the ability missing on resolution, just use whatever it
last looked like. If the Prodigal Sorceror happened to have been
turned green and changed into a Ninja just before it left play, then
it'll be damage from a green Ninja source when the ability finally
resolves.

Target illegal, can't do anything to it or have it do anything.
All targets illegal, ability gets countered and none of its effects
take place.

--
-- zoe

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Sentinel <nospam@ever.com> wrote:

> = Two dead PS's?

Got it exactly right.
Removing the source of an ability from play will not remove any
activations of that ability already on the stack.

- ∞

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Keith Piddington <uj551@vtn1.victoria.tc.ca> wrote:

> Does *not* fit perfectly. Why, if an ability becomes independent
> once activated/triggered, is it able to refer back to its source
> for any reason after being a/t'ed?

Non sequitur.

Are a Keldon Warlord in play and a Benalish Hero in play one object or
two? Note that the power/toughness of the Keldon Warlord refers to
whether the Benalish Hero is in play.
--
Daniel W. Johnson
panoptes@iquest.net
http://members.iquest.net/~panoptes/
039 53 36 N / 086 11 55 W

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

On Mon, 31 Jan 2005 20:42:07 -0500, Chris Mattern
<matternc@comcast.net> wrote:

>Gene P. wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 30 Jan 2005, Simon Nejmann wrote:
>>
>>>Prodigal Sorcerer
>>>{2}{U}
>>>Creature -- Wizard
>>>1/1
>>>{T}: ~this~ deals 1 damage to target creature or player.
>> [snip]
>>
>>>Scenario 1:
>>>You tap Prodigal Sorcerer targeting your opponent.
>>>In response he plays Terror targeting the Prodigal Sorcerer.
>>>Terror resolves destroying the Prodigal Sorcerer who goes to the
>>>graveyard.
>>>The ability from Prodigal Sorcerer resolves damaging the opponent for
>>>1 damage.
>>>
>>>The ability was on the stack and was not countered, thus it resolved
>>>and got to deal its damage - regardless of what happens to its source.
>>
>> Umm, no.
>>
>> Since the Prodigal Sorcerer's ability says that *it* deals the damage, the
>> damage *will not* be dealt if it leaves play prior to the resolution of
>> the ability.
>
>Umm, no. Not, nyet, nein, nix, no way. Once an effect is on the stack,
>the *only*, repeat, underscore, ONLY way it does not resolve is if it
>is countered. Doing away with source of the effect does not affect it
>in the slightest.

and there are only two ways to counter a ability on the stack, use a
stifle effect or make all of its targets illegal apon resolution.

(well there is a third way to prevent it happening, end the turn,
which removes the ability on the stack from the game)

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Hopefully the last query - would someone mind checking this situation?

If I had a 1/1 creature token (spong) and a Civic Guildmage (Creature: G,[T]
to give target creature +0/+1) (CS):

I tap the CS to give my spong 0/+1 (a stack starts and the ability goes on
it) and my opponent had a Prodigal Sorcerer (PS) & taps it to zap the spong
(PS's damage ability goes on top of stack) - if both players pass priority,
the spong would take the damage (and die). If both players pass priority
again, the CS effect wouldn't have a legal target and would dissipate.

But, if the PS had fired first and the CS boosted in response, the spong
would still be alive. Logical?

 

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Archived from groups: rec.games.trading-cards.magic.rules (More info?)

Sentinel wrote:

> Hopefully the last query - would someone mind checking this situation?
>
> If I had a 1/1 creature token (spong) and a Civic Guildmage (Creature:
> G,[T] to give target creature +0/+1) (CS):
>
> I tap the CS to give my spong 0/+1 (a stack starts and the ability goes on
> it) and my opponent had a Prodigal Sorcerer (PS) & taps it to zap the
> spong (PS's damage ability goes on top of stack) - if both players pass
> priority, the spong would take the damage (and die). If both players pass
> priority again, the CS effect wouldn't have a legal target and would
> dissipate.
>
> But, if the PS had fired first and the CS boosted in response, the spong
> would still be alive. Logical?

Exactly. By Jove, I think he's got it!

--
Christopher Mattern

"Which one you figure tracked us?"
"The ugly one, sir."
"...Could you be more specific?"