Upgrade or Downgrade of the Martin Logan

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

On 10/11/04 9:34 PM, in article ckfcaq0277e@news3.newsguy.com, "Norman M.
Schwartz" <nmsz@optonline.net> wrote:

> "B&D" <bromo@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> news:ckbimr0bsm@news1.newsguy.com...
>>
>> I personally have a soft spot for Magnepans - so I am biased. You will
> find
>> that ML's to be really nice - the only criticisms I have heard is the
>> relative speeds of the electrostatic part vs. the cone driver used to fill
>> in the low end. Magnepans use ribbons for everything so they tend to be
>> rather fast and uniformly so throughout the frequency range. I believe
> that
>> Quad is similar to magnepans since they tend to use one type of driver.
>>
>> I am sure you can get the dealer to let you listen to both types in your
>> home - especially if you are pretty sure you will buy one of them since
> the
>> transport and setup of each one is a pain for the dealer.
>
> Are there (m)any dealers which carry both maggies and ML products? IMO there
> are none. Since they are competitors it appears logical that there wouldn't
> be any.

The Sound Concept in Rochester, NY -- my personal favorite and the one I
patronize - stocks both. And there are three high end stores in the area
that I know of.

http://www.thesoundconcept.com/

The Quad dealer is in Buffalo, BTW.

I suppose the exception proves the rule? I was surprised, too.

> In any event I too am biased towards Magnepan and have owned one or
> another since the early seventies. Hybrid ribbon and cone speakers never
> really disturbed me. I've heard 8 paneled tympanies augmented by a subwoofer
> and loved them. The ancient HQD system employed (Decca) ribbons, Quads and
> Hartley subwoofers and if I can compare those with anything I have ever
> heard nothing even comes close. Using words often ab/used in audio circles,
> "too polite", "slam", "presence", "warmth" and soundstage", Maggies have it
> over anything else.

You betcha! The only thing I didn't like of the older ones, and the newer
Quasi ribbons is that if you stand up, you hear the upper frequencies roll
off something fierce.

>They offer a wall of sound, place you right up front as
> close as anyone would wish to get (of course afforded by the recording in
> question), and can knock your teeth out when you turn up the juice, and are
> not steely ice cold as are some others (e.g. Apogees). If you have high
> current delivering amps capable of driving low resistance speakers, space
> for the speakers to "breathe", you are all set. If you don't tear down some
> walls, or move and acquire the right amps before you die because IMO
> Magnepan truly offers to die for speakers.

One of my co-workers is a major Maggie fan - he bought a house with the
criteria that there be a large enough room for his Tympanis! His wife is
used to this and puts up with it - I told her it was clear he had proper
pririties!

I am discovering that I like Thiels as much as the Maggies - funnily enough!
They seem to want almost as much current and complain mightily when they
don't have it

 

[ban]

Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

outsor@city-net.com wrote:
> Regarding "speed" of speakers:d
>
>> "Well, I have noticed that almost every crossover design delays the
>> bass quite a bit. I experimented with Linkwitz-Riley 2nd and 4th
>> order designs and found them inacceptably introducing a delay, which
>> had the effect of what I call the bass is "limping behind".
>
> This is not related to "speed", the original comments were in the
> context that a cone sub and electro mid and upper sounded different
> because the sub didn't have the "speed" of the latter. Many sub
> woofers have phase controls, which can address the "time" mismatch to
> some degree, as can placement and swapping wire connections just as
> easily and with a greater range.

But allpass style crossovers delay the bass, and an additional allpass will
delay even more, only with a (DSP based) digital delay you can delay high
frequencies. This is a severe limit of analog electronics, there simply is
no possibility of a high quality delay for higher frequencies. Let us have a
look at a usual crossover as recommended for THX. (80Hz, 4th order L-R)
The lower frequencies will be delayed by 6.78ms(max at 52Hz) compared to the
treble, which is not delayed at all.
This means, that the bass originates *2.3m* behind the treble, only because
of the crossover!
If this is audible or not can be tested with DBT, I have done so(only with 3
persons, but 100% recognition) and found it audible.
When there is a kick from the bassdrum, you destinctly hear first the "plop"
of the pedal with the "boom" coming limping behind. Anybody who has a
conventionally crossed-over subwoofer will notice this. Also the bass seems
to be not completly integrated, somehow a doubt exists if it belongs to the
music.
Please answer if you can hear this.
--
ciao Ban
Bordighera, Italy

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

On 12 Oct 2004 01:34:18 GMT, "Norman M. Schwartz" <nmsz@optonline.net>
wrote:

>"B&D" <bromo@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
>news:ckbimr0bsm@news1.newsguy.com...
>>
>> I personally have a soft spot for Magnepans - so I am biased. You will find
>> that ML's to be really nice - the only criticisms I have heard is the
>> relative speeds of the electrostatic part vs. the cone driver used to fill
>> in the low end. Magnepans use ribbons for everything so they tend to be
>> rather fast and uniformly so throughout the frequency range. I believe that
>> Quad is similar to magnepans since they tend to use one type of driver.
>>
>> I am sure you can get the dealer to let you listen to both types in your
>> home - especially if you are pretty sure you will buy one of them since the
>> transport and setup of each one is a pain for the dealer.
>
>Are there (m)any dealers which carry both maggies and ML products? IMO there
>are none. Since they are competitors it appears logical that there wouldn't
>be any.

However, it appears from another post that there are several in one
fairly restricted area, suggesting that there is indeed a fair number
of fdealers who carry both brands. IME, good high end dealers do carry
competing brands, as it's in their interest to offer a good choice to
their customers. Some of the less scrupulous companies such as Linn do
certainly go to some lengths to pressure their dealers against such
stocking of competitors' wares, but I don't believe this to be
widespread among reputable manufacturers.

> In any event I too am biased towards Magnepan and have owned one or
>another since the early seventies. Hybrid ribbon and cone speakers never
>really disturbed me. I've heard 8 paneled tympanies augmented by a subwoofer
>and loved them. The ancient HQD system employed (Decca) ribbons, Quads and
>Hartley subwoofers and if I can compare those with anything I have ever
>heard nothing even comes close. Using words often ab/used in audio circles,
>"too polite", "slam", "presence", "warmth" and soundstage", Maggies have it
>over anything else.

Well, that's certainly one opinion, but if you like that style of
sound, you should also listen to other full-range panels, such as
Audiostat, Sound Lab, ML's own CLS, and of course the Quad 988/989.

>They offer a wall of sound, place you right up front as
>close as anyone would wish to get (of course afforded by the recording in
>question), and can knock your teeth out when you turn up the juice, and are
>not steely ice cold as are some others (e.g. Apogees).

I have Apogee Duetta Signatures, and they are definitely not 'steely
ice cold', they are in fact one of the most natural sounding speakers
I have ever heard, even more so than the Maggie IIIC with which I
directly compared them when purchasing. Of course, to coin a phrase, I
would say that!
--

Stewart Pinkerton | Music is Art - Audio is Engineering

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

"B&D" <bromo@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:ckfihi01rn6@news1.newsguy.com...
> On 10/11/04 9:34 PM, in article ckfcaq0277e@news3.newsguy.com, "Norman M.
> Schwartz" <nmsz@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> > "B&D" <bromo@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> > news:ckbimr0bsm@news1.newsguy.com...
> >>
> >> I personally have a soft spot for Magnepans - so I am biased. You will
> > find
> >> that ML's to be really nice - the only criticisms I have heard is the
> >> relative speeds of the electrostatic part vs. the cone driver used to
fill
> >> in the low end. Magnepans use ribbons for everything so they tend to
be
> >> rather fast and uniformly so throughout the frequency range. I believe
> > that
> >> Quad is similar to magnepans since they tend to use one type of driver.
> >>
> >> I am sure you can get the dealer to let you listen to both types in
your
> >> home - especially if you are pretty sure you will buy one of them since
> > the
> >> transport and setup of each one is a pain for the dealer.
> >
> > Are there (m)any dealers which carry both maggies and ML products? IMO
there
> > are none. Since they are competitors it appears logical that there
wouldn't
> > be any.
>
> The Sound Concept in Rochester, NY -- my personal favorite and the one I
> patronize - stocks both. And there are three high end stores in the area
> that I know of.
>
> http://www.thesoundconcept.com/
>
> The Quad dealer is in Buffalo, BTW.
>
> I suppose the exception proves the rule? I was surprised, too.
>
> > In any event I too am biased towards Magnepan and have owned one or
> > another since the early seventies. Hybrid ribbon and cone speakers never
> > really disturbed me. I've heard 8 paneled tympanies augmented by a
subwoofer
> > and loved them. The ancient HQD system employed (Decca) ribbons, Quads
and
> > Hartley subwoofers and if I can compare those with anything I have ever
> > heard nothing even comes close. Using words often ab/used in audio
circles,
> > "too polite", "slam", "presence", "warmth" and soundstage", Maggies have
it
> > over anything else.
>
> You betcha! The only thing I didn't like of the older ones, and the newer
> Quasi ribbons is that if you stand up, you hear the upper frequencies roll
> off something fierce.
>
> >They offer a wall of sound, place you right up front as
> > close as anyone would wish to get (of course afforded by the recording
in
> > question), and can knock your teeth out when you turn up the juice, and
are
> > not steely ice cold as are some others (e.g. Apogees). If you have high
> > current delivering amps capable of driving low resistance speakers,
space
> > for the speakers to "breathe", you are all set. If you don't tear down
some
> > walls, or move and acquire the right amps before you die because IMO
> > Magnepan truly offers to die for speakers.
>
> One of my co-workers is a major Maggie fan - he bought a house with the
> criteria that there be a large enough room for his Tympanis! His wife is
> used to this and puts up with it - I told her it was clear he had proper
> pririties!
>
> I am discovering that I like Thiels as much as the Maggies - funnily
enough!
> They seem to want almost as much current and complain mightily when they
> don't have it
>

After owning Maggies, only Thiels and before that IMF monitors floated my
boat among dynamics.

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

"B&D" <bromo@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:ckfihi01rn6@news1.newsguy.com...
> On 10/11/04 9:34 PM, in article ckfcaq0277e@news3.newsguy.com, "Norman M.
> Schwartz" <nmsz@optonline.net> wrote:
>
> > "B&D" <bromo@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
> > news:ckbimr0bsm@news1.newsguy.com...
> >>
> >> I personally have a soft spot for Magnepans - so I am biased. You will
> > find
> >> that ML's to be really nice - the only criticisms I have heard is the
> >> relative speeds of the electrostatic part vs. the cone driver used to
fill
> >> in the low end. Magnepans use ribbons for everything so they tend to
be
> >> rather fast and uniformly so throughout the frequency range. I believe
> > that
> >> Quad is similar to magnepans since they tend to use one type of driver.
> >>
> >> I am sure you can get the dealer to let you listen to both types in
your
> >> home - especially if you are pretty sure you will buy one of them since
> > the
> >> transport and setup of each one is a pain for the dealer.
> >
> > Are there (m)any dealers which carry both maggies and ML products? IMO
there
> > are none. Since they are competitors it appears logical that there
wouldn't
> > be any.
>
> The Sound Concept in Rochester, NY -- my personal favorite and the one I
> patronize - stocks both. And there are three high end stores in the area
> that I know of.
>

I suppose that is what meant by "live and learn".

>
> You betcha! The only thing I didn't like of the older ones, and the newer
> Quasi ribbons is that if you stand up, you hear the upper frequencies roll
> off something fierce.
>

This is true, but why would anyone want to stand up when listening? Another
problem which I experience related to *seating* elevation is that when I
choose a chair putting me closer to the floor, the lower frequencies become
bloated and the resultant soundstage is unattractive. I think the take home
lesson from all this is that one must to be very careful and do a lot of
experimenting with both speaker placement *and* seating position before
reaching any firm conclusion as to faults and strengths of any speaker
system. (People who perform room Equeing must be very familiar with this
situation.) Perhaps maggies require more attention to this issue than do
most other speakers?

 

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Archived from groups: rec.audio.high-end (More info?)

On 10/12/04 7:59 PM, in article ckhr450gll@news4.newsguy.com, "Norman M.
Schwartz" <nmsz@optonline.net> wrote:

>> You betcha! The only thing I didn't like of the older ones, and the newer
>> Quasi ribbons is that if you stand up, you hear the upper frequencies roll
>> off something fierce.
>>
>
> This is true, but why would anyone want to stand up when listening?

Good point, though I have been known to have stuff playing in the background
as I putter around the house.


>Another
> problem which I experience related to *seating* elevation is that when I
> choose a chair putting me closer to the floor, the lower frequencies become
> bloated and the resultant soundstage is unattractive.

I hadn't noticed this, but given how Maggies behave, I can see that as an
"issue"


>I think the take home
> lesson from all this is that one must to be very careful and do a lot of
> experimenting with both speaker placement *and* seating position before
> reaching any firm conclusion as to faults and strengths of any speaker
> system. (People who perform room Equeing must be very familiar with this
> situation.) Perhaps maggies require more attention to this issue than do
> most other speakers?

I think the rewards for the "fussiness" of Maggies make it all worthwhile.
I have found that Thiels are not nearly as fussy, though still reward
"proper" placement.

Though, many people want things that are less fussy to room acoustics and
placement - and for those something a bit less resolving and a bit more
forgiving is on order!