In response to slvr:
Only barely smaller, and you say that as though it is impossible to just simply do a little research and design a micro-atx PC that runs off of less than 100 watts. (Or for that matter that it's completely impossible to find an absolute-silent power supply that provides more than 100W.) Not only can you build a micro-atx solution that uses that little power, but you also can find silent power supplies that deliver more than 100W. All that it takes is bothering to look.
I did not say it would be impossible. I only said that Mini-ITX is guaranteed to work, while mATX is questionable. In other words, it is a lot easier to come up with a Mini-ITX solution than a mATX solution. It may be possible to come up with a passively cooled mATX configuration, but, as I stated before, if there is no <i>need</i> for the extras included on the mATX board, then why bother with the extra time, effort, and expense of going that route, when Mini-ITX is so easy and cheap? And yes, it is only barely smaller, but for some people, size my be a priority.
And Crashman's point is that you can find a solution that is considerably more powerful but at the same time just as silent and low-power. You can build a micro-atx system without fans and with a real graphics solution. You can even give it more processing power if you want to spend the money. (Not that you have to though.) Crashman isn't saying to use a sledgehammer. He's simply saying that sometimes the absolute smallest hammer in the toolchest is just plain too small, and the VIA systems are definately the smallest of the hammers.
Again, why bother reasearching and building a mATX solution when Mini-ITX is already perfectly suited. The original poster asked about web-surfing and editing. What possible benefit could these applications gain from an AGP slot and 2 more PCI slots?
It's funny how you can complain about him putting words in your mouth and put words into his mouth at the same time. He never said that.
There are many times Crashman has mis-quoted me, if you have been keeping up. That is why I prefer to use direct quotes, rather than paraphrasing. And I quote Crashman:
Using sub-PC parts that are inferior to laptop parts in every way, for the sake of size and power, is ludicrous.
Still claim I am putting words in his mouth? Ludicrous and stupid are about the same, if you ask me. Or if you ask <A HREF="http://thesaurus.reference.com/search?q=stupid" target="_new">dictionary.com</A> for that matter.
So it is kind of silly to suggest VIA for these reasons unless (and here is the big part where you casually ignore) price is also a notable concern.
Who ignores? Not I. I don't know anyone for whom price is not a concern. That is why I dismiss laptops, or as you suggested, tablet PC's for that matter. Also laptops are just about as upgradable as the Mini-ITX, so why even bother going that route? I see zero advantages. More on that later.
Again, Crashman never said that the pursuit of absolute silence is ludicrous. He said that using mini-itx when a micro-atx or a laptop solution would work better is. So once again you've put words into his mouth and at the same time complained that he did so to you. You're a very hypocritical person, aren't you?
Once again, why would spending the extra time, effort, and cash for a mATX or laptop system be better than Mini-ITX? That seems to be the center of this entire debate. Again, what advantage would these provide for web-surfing and editing? For mATX, you get expandability. 2 extra PCI slots, and an AGP. Hell <i>I</i> only use 1 PCI slot in my primary full size ATX system, and I do a lot more than web-surfing and editing. And thats just for the sound card. If I was happy with on-board, I wouldn't even need that. And for someone that is going be doing GUI-based apps only, what need is there for AGP? I'd say that for 90% of casual home users out there, integrated graphics/audio will suffice just fine. As for laptops, I still don't see any advantages. For the same money you would spend on a Mini-ITX sytem, any laptop you might find is going to be just as slow or slower, and just as expandible. Less so, IMO, as the laptop will accept only PCMCIA components, slim CD-rom drives, and 2.5" 4200 RPM HDDs.
You yourself said "sometimes a bigger hammer is not the best solution." and yet you completely throw out the idea of spending even less money on purchasing a used laptop that could just as easily have met the requirements for that project and have been smaller.
Even less money on a used laptop? Have you looked at used laptops lately? I doubt you will find anything that can compete with the C3 in the same price range. And it certainly would not be smaller than 17cm x 17cm. Don't know where you got that idea.
Since when is XP all-important? Hell, use Win98SE or Linux. The VIA system won't run XP worth a darn anyway. Sure, it'll run, but only just barely.
So now you are the ITX expert? XP is the current system being sold to casual home users. Just about any PC you find sold today will be running at least XP Home. Hell does MS still support or even sell Win98SE for that matter? And despite your unsubstantiated claim, XP will run just fine on a C3. See <A HREF="http://www6.tomshardware.com/cpu/20020605/c3-05.html" target="_new">here</A> for THG's own benchmarks on a C3 running XP.
It's so nice to see you give laptops a fair consideration. Because it's not like you couldn't easily purchase a used laptop for a very affordable price.
Well, I just checked ebay, and for about $100 most laptops were slower than 300Mhz. I might have been able to find faster if I continued searching, but I doubt I would find anything close to 1Ghz in working condition.
In case you were wanting to know, micro-atx can use as little power as a mini-itx setup. There's no need to wonder or pretend that this information just doesn't exist.
If you say this information does exist, why not show it to us, hmm?
Just because the specification doesn't explicitely require something doens't mean that it can't do it at all or that it is even a risk to do it. It just means that it wasn't required in the specification. Solutions do exist and are trustworthy.
Again, care to show us some, or are we just supposed to take your word for it?
First because you never know when you'll need the extra PCI slots. Second because you also get an AGP slot. Third because it also gives you the ability to upgrade your CPU should you ever desire to do so.
See above for my take on the extra PCI and AGP slots. As for the upgradability of the CPU, you actually have a valid point for once, as the soldered on CPU is the biggest weakness of the ITX platform. However, its not that big of a weakness in comparison. The ITX is cheap, so upgrading to a faster version will not break the bank. And, minor speed increases aside, when you upgrade your CPU you usually have to upgrade your motherboard as well, if you want to realize the full potential of the new CPU. However you could nitpick this argument.
As opposed to going with a more flexibke and only slightly larger guaranteed-to-work-without-fans micro-atx solution. Yeah, you're full of good advice.
You have yet to show me a guaranteed-to-work-without-fans mATX solution, even though you insist they exist. And once again, the mATX is only more flexible in terms of the extra slots, which, in the case at hand, are likely to never be of any use.
Again you use lies and spread FUD.
Ah more insults. Funny how people break down when they realize their argument holds no water.
You can configure a micro-atx PC that has no fans and therefore is just as silent.
Possibly. But how much more would you have to spend to make it quiet? And how much time and effort would it take to research and build such a system? And what would be the reason for doing so? PCI/AGP? If the slots are the added appeal, then I assume you have a use for them. What would that be? And can you still show me a system that actually does make use of the extra slots, yet is still passively cooled, including the PSU? I want facts, not opinions.
You're really not one who should be talking here since you already admitted yourself that you'd completely throw out any idea of using smaller, lower-heat, lower-power solutions just because they're laptop parts instead of mini-itx parts.
Why not? Laptop parts are more expensive and harder to find, unless you are talking of just buying a used laptop and cannibalizing it to make some sort of pseudo-desktop. Even still it would be more expensive, and certainly would require more effort.
Right. That's why you completely flat-out refused Crashman's opinion that laptop parts are better suited for the fields that people are using mini-itx parts.
Well, I am waiting for someone to demonstrate otherwise. It hasn't been done yet.
As you said "Thats all we needed to know. Opinion noted, and duly ignored." <sarcasm>I can see how you were wise and respected his viewpoint no matter how opposed to your own it may be.</sarcasm>
If you put that in the context to which it was intended, the opinion which I was ignoring was Crashman's sweeping generalization that "Using sub-PC parts that are inferior to laptop parts in every way, for the sake of size and power, is ludicrous." To call something "ludicrous" automatically implies that whomever would choose to do that particular something must be stupid. However people do use ITX, and there is a unique appeal to it. To simply call it "ludicrous" is nothing more than flame-bait, and does indeed deserve to be ignored.
Actually, his analogy was quite relevant. Their only difference is size. Both use the exact same internal components. So one can't possibly be any quieter than the other.
Ahh the dreaded analogies. I assume the one you are referring to in this particular quote is the one comparing Pintos to Rangers. I can't argue anything specifically to do with these two vehicles, but I can tell you that if you remove the muffler from either vehicle, the internal components will not change, however it will be much louder. What does this have to do with computers? I don't know. We're suppposedly all computer geeks here, not redneck car mechanics. Lets stick to what we all know.
Actually, as an independant observer I have to say that he did rather clearly identify that your lies are that you keep saying that micro-atx can't possibly be completely silent like your mini-itx can be.
I never made such a statement, so that cannot possibly be the lie Crashman is referring to. Personally I think he just enjoys calling me a liar, as he has done it several times, not all in this thread either. And he never claims what is the supposed lie, he simply states that I am either a liar or lying, without clarifying any specifics in relation to the accusation.
For your information, micro-atx can be completely silent. It isn't a requirement in the micro-atx specs, but there are components for a micro-atx system that you could use which run fanless anyway.
OK, Mr. Broken Record. You can repeat this all you want. Still doesn't make it true. Find and build me such a system, and include prices. No cheating by using slow speed fans either. Then tell me why having a few extra empty PCI and AGP slots would make someone want to go that route in the first place.
For someone who sounded like you knew something of a debate, you erected a pretty tall strawman here.
Are you referring to me or Crashman? Do you even know the definition of a straw man fallacy? This is where you set up a position <i>not held by your opponent</i>, and attack and defeat that position. As Crashman is the one constantly paraphrasing my position and creating analogies, rather than using direct quotes, one can only assume that you must be referring to Crashman.
Officially claimed, no. Again as an independant observer though, you did strongly imply it once.
The prudent debater would present a quote in which I made the claimed implication. Good luck finding one.
No offense, but yet again as an independant third party, it's pretty clear to see from both of your posts which of you has the higher IQ, and in case you were wondering, it isn't you. You are clearly not stupid however. I'd definately put you above average.
Thanks and no thanks I guess. I wasn't trying to put myself above anyone in terms of intelligence. I was merely pointing out how childish it is to make such a claim, if you read what I said.
So the truth is that you really don't care about what size hammer is being used, you're just a mini-itx zealot who thinks that nothing else could possibly meet people's needs any better.
Now look who is guilty of paraphrasing! I am certainly not a Mini-ITX zealot. I've never owned one, and never plan to own one. I just find it irritating that certain people automatically dismiss a particular item just because it does not suit <i>them</i>. And yes, Crashman did just that:
Micro ATX is better in almost every way than Mini-ITX.
Closed-mindedness always gets under my skin, and I will always take a contrary opinion to someone exhibiting it. If Crashman had argued that Mini-ITX was better than mATX in almost every way, our standpoints would be reversed. The fact is, both platforms have their place. In the context of the original question which begat this thread, I still feel that Mini-ITX would work just fine.
Can we just agree that mini-itx has some uses (mostly when cost, wattage, and silence are primary concerns) but that there are also other solutions which may meet people's needs better, even sometimes when cost, wattage, and silence are involved?
HURRAH! Finally a bit of light in this tunnel. That is the first thing anyone has said that makes complete sense. Yes, Mini-ITX has its uses, <i>especially</i> when cost, wattage, and silence are priorities. And yes, I am <i>certain</i> you can build a relatively quiet mATX system. Surprised eh? But if you read carefully, I <i>never</i> claimed you couldn't. My position from the beginning has always been that if you want to build the <i>smallest and quietest</i> (note the -est suffix), ITX is the way to go, AND also that the ITX would be perfectly suited to web-surfing and editing.
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Armadillo<font color=orange>[</font color=orange><font color=green>TcC</font color=green><font color=orange>]</font color=orange> at Lanwar and MML
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