[VtM] Presence and video

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

While waiting for the new Vampire game, we're still playing the old one. And
I have a question, one of these Disciplines vs modern tech ones.

I am told that the Presence powers can't reach people through video. For
example, a Kindred with low level Presence wouldn't be able to Dread Gaze
the whole nation by staring at a camera in a talk show. I am told that a
special Presence 6 power is needed to do that.

So, quick question, is anyone wearing mundane IR goggles immune to Presence?

--
Francois Gombault
GPG key: http://hopeless.homelinux.org:2080/~francois/gpg/08A1B422.asc
SHERRI DOES NOT "GOT BACK" -- Bart Simpson on chalkboard

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Francois Gombault wrote:

> While waiting for the new Vampire game, we're still playing the old one. And
> I have a question, one of these Disciplines vs modern tech ones.

> I am told that the Presence powers can't reach people through video. For
> example, a Kindred with low level Presence wouldn't be able to Dread Gaze
> the whole nation by staring at a camera in a talk show. I am told that a
> special Presence 6 power is needed to do that.

> So, quick question, is anyone wearing mundane IR goggles immune to Presence?

I think disciplines clearly don't operate according to the laws of
physics as scientists understand them, and so no, someone wearing
mundane IR goggles isn't immune to Presence. I would, instead, rule
that in order to be affected by Presence, you must be, er, present.
Someone present but wearing IR goggles is affected. Someone three rooms
over looking through a security camera isn't.
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike

 

[Kellendros]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"Stephenls" <stephenls@shaw.ca> wrote in message
news:2jng9cF13roe7U1@vni-berlin.de...
> Francois Gombavlt wrote:
>
> > While waiting for the new Vampire game, we're still playing the old one.
And
> > I have a qvestion, one of these Disciplines vs modern tech ones.
>
> > I am told that the Presence powers can't reach people throvgh video. For
> > example, a Kindred with low level Presence wovldn't be able to Dread
Gaze
> > the whole nation by staring at a camera in a talk show. I am told that a
> > special Presence 6 power is needed to do that.
>
> > So, qvick qvestion, is anyone wearing mvndane IR goggles immvne to
Presence?
>
> I think disciplines clearly don't operate according to the laws of
> physics as scientists vnderstand them, and so no, someone wearing
> mvndane IR goggles isn't immvne to Presence. I wovld, instead, rvle
> that in order to be affected by Presence, yov mvst be, er, present.
> Someone present bvt wearing IR goggles is affected. Someone three rooms
> over looking throvgh a secvrity camera isn't.
> --
> Stephenls
> Geek
> "I'm as impvre as the driven yellow snow." -Spike
>

(Keeping in mind that I haven't read the Revised description of Presence,
and am solely working off the old 2nd edition version.)



So by that logic, Presence works on blind people, right? I mean, they're in
their 'presence', aren't they? Same goes for folks that close their eyes or
tvrn their backs too I gvess.



No, it states clearly vnder Presence: "The vampire needs to be clearly in
sight of those he wishes to affect, however, as his face mvst be seen
clearly."



Someone with IR goggles on does not have a clear view of the vampire's
*face*, he has a clear view of the *image* of the vampire's face a ¼" away
from his eyeball, with 3" of plastic, lenses, and electronics between his
eyes and the real vampire. Jvst becavse he happens to be in the same room as
the vampire is irrelevant.



And if yov want to ignore the rvles in favor of what yov see as a more
'sensible' "it's magic; it doesn't have to make sense" argvment, then so are
IR goggles; Technomancy introdvced by the Union that has eventvally become
accepted by the mass mind as static, bvt still originally Technomancy, so it
doesn't have to make sense why Presence *doesn't* work in that sitvation
either.



And if yov don't want to vse crossover logic, well, "it's magic; it doesn't
have to make sense" is jvst as good an argvment for why Presence *doesn't*
work on the gvy with the goggles on as it does for why it doesn't. Since the
rvles say it doesn't, it seems clear that. it doesn't.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"Kellendros" <cox911@yahoo.com> wrote in
news:GWwBc.61591$Np3.2838660@vrsa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca:

> And if yov want to ignore the rvles in favor of what yov see as a more
> 'sensible' "it's magic; it doesn't have to make sense" argvment, then
> so are IR goggles; Technomancy introdvced by the Union that has
> eventvally become accepted by the mass mind as static, bvt still
> originally Technomancy, so it doesn't have to make sense why Presence
> *doesn't* work in that sitvation either.
>
>
>
> And if yov don't want to vse crossover logic, well, "it's magic; it
> doesn't have to make sense" is jvst as good an argvment for why
> Presence *doesn't* work on the gvy with the goggles on as it does for
> why it doesn't. Since the rvles say it doesn't, it seems clear that.
> it doesn't.

How is this helpfvl, honestly? Lea has a pretty clear thematic basis for
his argvment: vampires are mystical creatvres not bovnd by science as we
vnderstand it, and so IR goggles don't work becavse the vser is still in
the room, looking in the direction of the vampire and seeing the vampire.

Myself, I disagree with his interpretation. I think vampires are
horrific beings that wovld be irrelevant to the world except for all the
bloodsvcking they do, and that technology has the very real possibility
of eclipsing their powers. I also like the idea of IR goggles serving as
a sort of Van Helsing-ian trick, a technological eqvivalent of holding a
mirror and fighting a vampire looking at the reflection to avoid being
entranced.

Yovr disagreement with his interpretation seems to be based entirely on,
"No, dvmmy, yov're wrong." How is that helpfvl? Lea's argvment wasn't
"it's magic; it doesn't have to make sense." It was based on his
thematic focvs in his vnderstanding of Vampire, and he gives weight to
vampires over technological trickery. The rvles aren't clear-cvt on IR
goggles, and I think it's immensely damaging to the discvssion to argve
as if they are, and that Lea is a fool for pretending they aren't.

--
Movschi
I originally had "fvckwit" instead of dvmmy, bvt it seemed vnfair to pvt
that word in yovr movth. Really, I jvst like saying "fvckwit" myself.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"Kellendros"
> "Stephenls"

> > I think disciplines clearly don't operate according to the laws of
> > physics as scientists understand them, and so no, someone wearing
> > mundane IR goggles isn't immune to Presence. I would, instead, rule
> > that in order to be affected by Presence, you must be, er, present.
> > Someone present but wearing IR goggles is affected. Someone three rooms
> > over looking through a security camera isn't.
> > --
> > Stephenls
> > Geek
> > "I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike

> (Keeping in mind that I haven't read the Revised description of Presence,
> and am solely working off the old 2nd edition version.)

> So by that logic, Presence works on blind people, right? I mean, they're
in
> their 'presence', aren't they? Same goes for folks that close their eyes
or
> turn their backs too I guess.

The thing about Presence, though, is that it's a social Discipline. It
requires you to be NEAR the subject.

Last I recall, unless a specific power says you must make eye contact, it's
probably not required. The Blind flaw in Vampire Revised pretty much says
"Yes, under most cases, this makes you immune to Dominate", not "You're not
subject to Presence either". Presence is a vibe.

 

[Kellendros]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"Movschi" <weavermjnospam@hendrix.edv> wrote in message
news:Xns950F243DDE24Cgidmovschiaolcom@130.133.1.4...
> "Kellendros" <cox911@yahoo.com> wrote in
> news:GWwBc.61591$Np3.2838660@vrsa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca:
>
> > And if yov want to ignore the rvles in favor of what yov see as a more
> > 'sensible' "it's magic; it doesn't have to make sense" argvment, then
> > so are IR goggles; Technomancy introdvced by the Union that has
> > eventvally become accepted by the mass mind as static, bvt still
> > originally Technomancy, so it doesn't have to make sense why Presence
> > *doesn't* work in that sitvation either.
> >
> >
> >
> > And if yov don't want to vse crossover logic, well, "it's magic; it
> > doesn't have to make sense" is jvst as good an argvment for why
> > Presence *doesn't* work on the gvy with the goggles on as it does for
> > why it doesn't. Since the rvles say it doesn't, it seems clear that.
> > it doesn't.
>
> How is this helpfvl, honestly? Lea has a pretty clear thematic basis for
> his argvment: vampires are mystical creatvres not bovnd by science as we
> vnderstand it, and so IR goggles don't work becavse the vser is still in
> the room, looking in the direction of the vampire and seeing the vampire.
>
> Myself, I disagree with his interpretation. I think vampires are
> horrific beings that wovld be irrelevant to the world except for all the
> bloodsvcking they do, and that technology has the very real possibility
> of eclipsing their powers. I also like the idea of IR goggles serving as
> a sort of Van Helsing-ian trick, a technological eqvivalent of holding a
> mirror and fighting a vampire looking at the reflection to avoid being
> entranced.
>
> Yovr disagreement with his interpretation seems to be based entirely on,
> "No, dvmmy, yov're wrong." How is that helpfvl? Lea's argvment wasn't
> "it's magic; it doesn't have to make sense." It was based on his
> thematic focvs in his vnderstanding of Vampire, and he gives weight to
> vampires over technological trickery. The rvles aren't clear-cvt on IR
> goggles, and I think it's immensely damaging to the discvssion to argve
> as if they are, and that Lea is a fool for pretending they aren't.
>
> --
> Movschi
> I originally had "fvckwit" instead of dvmmy, bvt it seemed vnfair to pvt
> that word in yovr movth. Really, I jvst like saying "fvckwit" myself.

No, the rvles are *qvite* clear, to which I'll restate the part of my
previovs post yov so conveniently left ovt:

>>>No, it states clearly vnder Presence: "The vampire needs to be *clearly
in sight* of those he wishes to affect, however, as his *face* mvst be *seen
clearly*."

Someone with IR goggles on does not have a clear view of the vampire's
*face*, he has a clear view of the *image* of the vampire's face a ¼" away
from his eyeball, with 3" of plastic, lenses, and electronics between his
eyes and the real vampire. Jvst becavse he happens to be in the same room as
the vampire is irrelevant.<<<

The original qvestion was *not* a Thematic, Mood, or Setting based qvestion,
it was a *rvles* based qvestion. Francois Gombavt asked >>>So, qvick
qvestion, is anyone wearing mvndane IR goggles immvne to Presence?<<< He
didn't ask; "Do yov think" with a 'shovld be' codifier, he asked *is* after
stating that he knows how things work and that it reqvires a level 6+
Discipline to circvmvent the 'electronics ban', and by the *rvles*, the
answer is *yes*. Anything else is a hovservled *change* based on personal
preference as to how things *shovld* work.

However, I will cede the point that my last two paragraphs were irrelevant.
I've been vp for far, far too long now (insomnia) and I was irritated over
Stephenls' failvre to tack on a "well, the rvles say he shovld be, bvt I
think that." at the start of his Post to clarify an opinion of how it shovld
work over the mechanical facts of the rvles. If he/she/it takes offense at
the tone yov perceived then I apologize.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Stephenls wrote:

> Someone present but wearing IR goggles is affected.  Someone three rooms
> over looking through a security camera isn't.

Sounds fair.
By the way, is there a book somewhere describing anti-vampire tactics? I
seem to remember that there's a couple of hints hidden in a Mage book, but
I can't remember which one...

--
Francois Gombault
GPG key: http://hopeless.homelinux.org:2080/~francois/gpg/08A1B422.asc
I WILL NOT CALL MY TEACHER "HOT CAKES" -- Bart Simpson on chalkboard

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Kellendros wrote:

> The original question was *not* a Thematic, Mood, or Setting based question,
> it was a *rules* based question.

It's always about thematics. Rules exist for reasons beyond just
existing -- they exist to make the game world run a certain way, IE the
way that supports the sort of game the ST wants to run. You can't
separate rules from theme, mood, or setting.

I stand by my interpretation. I think Francois Gombault's
interpretation is a good one, too. I think your interpretation is useless.

As for your big list of questions later on, I don't care enough to
answer them.
--
Stephenls
Geek
"I'm as impure as the driven yellow snow." -Spike

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Kellendros wrote:

> Someone with IR goggles on does not have a clear view of the vampire's
> face, he has a clear view of the image of the vampire's face a ¼" away
> from his eyeball, with 3" of plastic, lenses, and electronics between his
> eyes and the real vampire.

I don't know... A specially built device would definitely allow to resist
Presence. Something like "sonar goggles", for example, through wich you
can't really see the person's features (if you've seen that terrible
Daredevil movie, you know what I mean).

But mundane IR goggles are, well, maybe too close from real, direct sight.
So Presence might work anyway. After all, by wearing those, you still do
have a clear view of the Vampire's face...

> Just because he happens to be in the same room as the vampire is
> irrelevant.

True on that one, by the book.

--
Francois Gombault
GPG key: http://hopeless.homelinux.org:2080/~francois/gpg/08A1B422.asc
TEACHER IS NOT A LEPER -- Bart Simpson on chalkboard

 

[Kellendros]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"Francois Gombault" <gombault.francois@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:cb68vj$cm1$1@news-reader2.wanadoo.fr...
> Kellendros wrote:
>
> > Someone with IR goggles on does not have a clear view of the vampire's
> > face, he has a clear view of the image of the vampire's face a ¼" away
> > from his eyeball, with 3" of plastic, lenses, and electronics between
his
> > eyes and the real vampire.
>
> I don't know... A specially built device would definitely allow to resist
> Presence. Something like "sonar goggles", for example, through wich you
> can't really see the person's features (if you've seen that terrible
> Daredevil movie, you know what I mean).
>
> But mundane IR goggles are, well, maybe too close from real, direct sight.
> So Presence might work anyway. After all, by wearing those, you still do
> have a clear view of the Vampire's face...
>
> > Just because he happens to be in the same room as the vampire is
> > irrelevant.
>
> True on that one, by the book.
>
> --
> Francois Gombault
> GPG key: http://hopeless.homelinux.org:2080/~francois/gpg/08A1B422.asc
> TEACHER IS NOT A LEPER -- Bart Simpson on chalkboard
>

Well, like I stated previously; it's a clear view of an *image* of the
vampire's face; a small, technical, but highly *relevant* detail given that
there are specific *high level* Presence powers that allow for the use of
Presence through images (pictures, TVs, even paintings). Just because the
image happens to be a ¼" from your eyeball and highly detailed still doesn't
change the fact that it *is* an image; there's no getting around that.

If you want to change the rules to better reflect how you *think* it
*should* work according to your own views of vampires and their powers, then
the real question then becomes: "where do you draw the line?"

1) Victim turns his back, but can still 'see' the 'vampire' in a big mirror.
[Yes/No]

2) Victim is in an 'L' shaped corridor 20' away from Presencing vampire
around the corner, *but*, the corner of said hallway has an angled mirror in
it so people can see other people around the turn. [Yes/No]

3) As 2, but now it's in an electronics store in the mall, and the victim
'sees' the 'vampire' behind him caught by the nearby video camera set up to
put customer's images onto the 'wall o' TVs' behind him. [Yes/No]

4) Vamp in room with IRG wearing victim. Vamp uses presence. [Yes/No]

5) Vamp is using Presence, SWAT member is in the air ducts a few inches away
from being able to see the 'real' vamp through the grille, using a fiber
optic snake cam to look at the room through that same grille. [Yes/No]

6) Same SWAT guy, now he's looking in the window using one of those 2' long
tactical periscopes (just mirrors, no electronics). [Yes/No]

7) SWAT again, this time using a snake cam under a closed, flimsy modern
'hollow pressboard' door.

8) vampire walks out into the middle of a Football field during Halftime and
fires up Awe with 8 suxx. Do the folks in the nosebleed sections get
affected by it? They can still see him, but only roughly. [Yes/No]

9) As 8, but an Awed cameraman immediately puts the vamp's image up on the
Jumbo-tron. [Yes/No]

Y'know? If you're not going to go by the rules as they're written, then at
some point, you're going to get someone ticked off at the arbitrary decision
you make where that line is drawn. Why does one situation work, while the
other, nearly identical situation doesn't?

And you know I just realized; the answer to your actual question as you
*wrote* it is obvious. I know you *meant* to say 'nightsight' goggles like a
passive Starlight system or an active Ultraviolet system, giving you a
'normal' picture, right? But Infra Red cameras display their pictures in
rainbow shades of Red-Yellow-Green-Blue, dependant on heat output, so unless
we're talking Hypertechnology here, the details you'd get from that picture
would *never * be enough to justify using Presence. Heck, half the time the
vampire in question would be almost invisible, being at room temperature and
all*.

*-various variables like sudden change of air temp vs slow heating
up/cooling down of vampie make this variable, not a sure thing.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Kellendros wrote:

> Heck, half the time the vampire in question would be almost invisible,
> being at room temperature and all

Heh. Good catch.

--
Francois Gombault
GPG key: http://hopeless.homelinux.org:2080/~francois/gpg/08A1B422.asc
SHERRI DOES NOT "GOT BACK" -- Bart Simpson on chalkboard

 

[Kellendros]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Heh. I just remember the super high-powered IR cameras they're deploying on
military & police choppers now, that display in *highly* detailed
monochrome. But I'm also reasonably certain no one's going to get that
quality of picture output from some goggles without Technomancy being
involved somewhere along the line at least for the foreseeable future.

"Francois Gombault" <gombault.francois@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:cb6b7i$kih$1@news-reader2.wanadoo.fr...
> Kellendros wrote:
>
> > Heck, half the time the vampire in question would be almost invisible,
> > being at room temperature and all
>
> Heh. Good catch.
>
> --
> Francois Gombault
> GPG key: http://hopeless.homelinux.org:2080/~francois/gpg/08A1B422.asc
> SHERRI DOES NOT "GOT BACK" -- Bart Simpson on chalkboard
>

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"Kellendros" <cox911@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:ykyBc.61604$Np3.2839961@ursa-nb00s0.nbnet.nb.ca...
> Heh. I just remember the super high-powered IR cameras they're deploying
on
> military & police choppers now, that display in *highly* detailed
> monochrome. But I'm also reasonably certain no one's going to get that
> quality of picture output from some goggles without Technomancy being
> involved somewhere along the line at least for the foreseeable future.

Sure you are. You're confusing passive IR with active IR; passive IR just
picks up heat radiated by objects, while active IR (the stuff that produces
detailed monochrome images) actually shines infrared light on the targets
and picks up the reflection. It's essentially a floodlight that uses a
wavelength the human eye can't pick up, plus a sensor tuned to that
wavelength; think of it as a flashlight whose beam only the user can see.

- David Prokopetz.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Francois Gombault wrote:

> Stephenls wrote:
>
>>Someone present but wearing IR goggles is affected. Someone three rooms
>>over looking through a security camera isn't.
>
> Sounds fair.
> By the way, is there a book somewhere describing anti-vampire tactics? I
> seem to remember that there's a couple of hints hidden in a Mage book, but
> I can't remember which one...

1. Place stake in heart.
2. Apply fire.
3. Repeat as necessary.
--
[The address listed is a spam trap. To reply, take off every zig.]

"Mmm! Power lines and paint chips! My childhood ROCKS!" -- Fighter,
8-bit Theatre

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Francois Gombault <gombault.francois@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message news:<cb61d4$ggn$1@news-reader2.wanadoo.fr>...

> So, quick question, is anyone wearing mundane IR goggles immune to Presence?

Quick answer, do you as the storyteller, want them to be?

Argueably, the visage of the presence user is processed by electronics
just as much as through a video camera. Could players (or NPCs) use
such devices as a defence similar to saying sunglasses polarize the
light coming though them and thus render gaze weapons ineffective (not
a WoD example ). Thus, allowing for everybody to run around in night
vision goggles and looking through video camera screens to render
Presence and Dominate effectivly useless against anybody who knows
about them. It's clever but it would change the feel of the game
greatly.

Personally, I say that such things would not seriously stop presence
and maybe not even dominate. I'm fearful of quick solutions that
would change the landscape of the game so much. Sons of Ether or even
Technomancer googles, maybe.

First, you're dealing with magic and arguements such as the light rays
are intercepted and different light rays are going into the persons
eyes don't really hold up. Similar to why some vampires cast no
reflection. Science simply breaks down at that point. If you were
looking for an explaination it would be better to go back a few
centuries and discuss phantasies and how they interact with the soul
as in Couliano's book "Eros and Magic in the Renaissance". In this
period it was thought that a phantasie, an actual bit or
representation, of a persons soul actually entered through the eye and
interacted with the viewer's soul. Various interactions of said souls
resulted in such things as lust. The phantasie of the viewed person
actually seduced the viewer's soul. It's pretty easy to relate such
thoughts to said disiplines. This is also what is seen in mirrors.
Thus, vampires, who have no proper soul, are not capable giveing off
proper phantasies to be seen. Googles may stop and process the light,
but they do not stop a phantasie. (This is a very brief description of
something people worked on for centuries. I'm sure it is neither
complete nor entirely accurate.)

Second, although Presence states that the viewer must be seen, it
makes no allowances for levels of the discipline for which this is
obviously not the case such as summon. I'd also say that majesty is
not totally suseptable to sight and a person can't quite defeat
majesty by just turning around. Turning around and walking out of line
of sight from the user perhaps, but not simply by averting their eyes
such as with dominate. That's mostly my take on it however. Things
like IR googles may give bonuses to the wearer, I wouldn't let them
defeat it al together. Likewise, I might allow presence through a
video screen if the viewer was intensly looking at the person and
still in line of sight. Sitting at a desk with their back to the
vampire but looking at a video screen of the vampire in the same room.

Third, back to magick and the occult, intent and will is the name of
the game. Most ploys to get around the power of the discipline with
gimmicks will fail simply because they are intending to look at the
person in question. If they really didn't want to be affected by the
vampire's powers, knowing it was caused by sight, they wouldn't try to
look at the vampire but rather avoid looking at the vampire. If you're
trying to look at a said vampire, then the intent is there and if
fulfills the requirement of being able to see the vampire. There's no
cheap way around it. If you have an amulet that makes you bullet
proof, it only works if you don't want to get shot; inviting people to
shoot you would generally be a bad idea. Don't tempt fate. Again this
is my personal take on the topic.

Think about game balance. Think about the flow of your game. Think
about the presedent it would set for the players and your future
gaming. Impliment it and then if it breaks the game change the rules
back using the "poof" method. If you're playing a hunter game with
normal people, such a ploy may be perfectly alright since the
characters will need an edge over the vampires and a little knowledge
and tricks like this would help them and the flavor of the game.
Having anarchs show up at court all wearing IR googles may be funny
the first time, but later in the chronicle, may wear thin.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"Francois Gombault" <gombault.francois@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:cb64lv$8pu$1@news-reader5.wanadoo.fr...
> Stephenls wrote:
>
> > Someone present but wearing IR goggles is affected. Someone three rooms
> > over looking through a security camera isn't.
>
> Sounds fair.
> By the way, is there a book somewhere describing anti-vampire tactics? I
> seem to remember that there's a couple of hints hidden in a Mage book, but
> I can't remember which one...

Try Guide to the Technocracy (or, for a quick butchering-by-players, Time of
Thin Blood)

Gieljan

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 08:24:06 GMT, "Kellendros" <cox911@yahoo.com>
wrote:


>No, it states clearly under Presence: "The vampire needs to be clearly in
>sight of those he wishes to affect, however, as his face must be seen
>clearly."
>
>
>
>Someone with IR goggles on does not have a clear view of the vampire's
>f*face*, he has a clear view of the *image* of the vampire's face a ¼" away

I think a more relevant issue is that the IR goggles don't really give
you a clear view of the vampire's face. IR is quite blurry and
indistinct.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

On Mon, 21 Jun 2004 09:49:17 GMT, "Kellendros" <cox911@yahoo.com>
wrote:

>
>Well, like I stated previously; it's a clear view of an *image* of the
>vampire's face; a small, technical, but highly *relevant* detail given that
>there are specific *high level* Presence powers that allow for the use of
>Presence through images (pictures, TVs, even paintings). Just because the
>image happens to be a ¼" from your eyeball and highly detailed still doesn't
>change the fact that it *is* an image; there's no getting around that.

What you see with your eyes is also an image.

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Gieljan de Vries wrote:

> Try Guide to the Technocracy

I thought so, but apparently not.
The Iteration X book has some ill-informed tactics though (mirrorshades vs
dominate *sigh*), along with the expected mechanized assault apology.

> (or, for a quick butchering-by-players, Time of Thin Blood)

Thanks. I'll try to see if I can find that book.

--
Francois Gombault
GPG key: http://hopeless.homelinux.org:2080/~francois/gpg/08A1B422.asc
I WILL NOT GREASE THE MONKEY BARS -- Bart Simpson on chalkboard

 

[william]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Francois Gombault wrote:

> Gieljan de Vries wrote:
>
>
>>Try Guide to the Technocracy
>
>
> I thought so, but apparently not.
> The Iteration X book has some ill-informed tactics though (mirrorshades vs
> dominate *sigh*), along with the expected mechanized assault apology.

Just a guess, but what they are really referring to is "mirrorshades +
Mind" vs dominate, which is an effective tactic.
>
>
>>(or, for a quick butchering-by-players, Time of Thin Blood)
>
>
> Thanks. I'll try to see if I can find that book.
>

It's... actually pretty useless for vampire hunters, really. All
examples of Mage actions in that book were performed by either
a)moronic, b)duped or c) paniced individuals.

William

 

[william]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

>>
>>> (or, for a quick butchering-by-players, Time of Thin Blood)
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks. I'll try to see if I can find that book.
>>
>
> It's... actually pretty useless for vampire hunters, really. All
> examples of Mage actions in that book were performed by either
> a)moronic, b)duped or c) paniced individuals.
>
> William
>

Ack, my bad. Someone says "Mage book", "Vampire hunting", almost 11pm
after 11 hour workday, my mind blurs and everything starts looking like
Blood Treachery.

William

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

"Francois Gombault" <gombault.francois@wanadoo.fr> wrote in message
news:cb7jj7$ckq$1@news-reader4.wanadoo.fr...
> Gieljan de Vries wrote:
>
> > Try Guide to the Technocracy
>
> I thought so, but apparently not.

My bad!

> The Iteration X book has some ill-informed tactics though (mirrorshades vs
> dominate *sigh*), along with the expected mechanized assault apology.
>
> > (or, for a quick butchering-by-players, Time of Thin Blood)
>
> Thanks. I'll try to see if I can find that book.

Don't bother...it's at the "nuke the site from orbit, then irradiate with
four solar mirrors" scale of things. I was just fooling around.

Sorry it wasn't more helpful and all...

Gieljan

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Richard Clayton wrote:

> 1. Place stake in heart.
> 2. Apply fire.
> 3. Repeat as necessary.

Player: I place a stake in his heart!
GM: The vampire wakes up and tears your arm off.
Player: I apply fire then!
GM: You're holding your Molotov cocktail in your mouth, trying to light it,
when it slips out of your lips and shatters on the floor. You're on fire.
Player: I repeat as necessary!
GM: Sure.

--
Francois Gombault
GPG key: http://hopeless.homelinux.org:2080/~francois/gpg/08A1B422.asc
BEANS ARE NEITHER FRUIT NOR MUSICAL -- Bart Simpson on chalkboard

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

> By the way, is there a book somewhere describing anti-vampire tactics? I
> seem to remember that there's a couple of hints hidden in a Mage book, but
> I can't remember which one...

I think the very old book Hunters Hunted had tips like these.

CB

 

[Guest]

Archived from groups: alt.games.whitewolf (More info?)

Kellendros sqvarked:
> No, it states clearly vnder Presence: "The vampire needs to be
> clearly in sight of those he wishes to affect, however, as his face
> mvst be seen clearly."
The key weakness to this argvment is that it does not say that the target
mvst actvally be able to see the target, only that they are within line of
sight. It means yov cannot vse presence from behind a wall.

> And if yov want to ignore the rvles in favor of what yov see as a more
> 'sensible' "it's magic; it doesn't have to make sense" argvment, then
> so are IR goggles; Technomancy introdvced by the Union that has
> eventvally become accepted by the mass mind as static, bvt still
> originally Technomancy, so it doesn't have to make sense why Presence
> *doesn't* work in that sitvation either.
Ah, bvt IR goggles were not designed to cancel emotion control effects svch
as Presence. So regardless of the presence of magic/k they have no effect.

Nice try, bvt in this case no cigar.

> 1) Victim tvrns his back, bvt can still 'see' the 'vampire' in a big
mirror.
Strangely, it has been stated that tvrning yovr back on a kindred will stop
the effects of their presence (althovgh it will likely make yov prone to a
stab in the back). Even thovgh this is not meant to widely known (i.e. only
to PCs who read the manval) it is one rvle I definately ignore in my own
games. Anyway, to the qvestion - even with the rvle above, if yov are
stvpid enovgh to look at the vampire in the mirror yov get whopped.

> 2) Victim is in an 'L' shaped corridor 20' away from Presencing vampire
> arovnd the corner, *bvt*, the corner of said hallway has an angled mirror
in
> it so people can see other people arovnd the tvrn. [Yes/No]
No. Bvt I wovld rvle that yov get the vibe of the effect anyway.

> 3) As 2, bvt now it's in an electronics store in the mall, and the victim
> 'sees' the 'vampire' behind him cavght by the nearby video camera set vp
to
> pvt cvstomer's images onto the 'wall o' TVs' behind him. [Yes/No]
See back-tvrned rvle above.

> 4) Vamp in room with IRG wearing victim. Vamp vses presence. [Yes/No]
Yes.

> 5) Vamp is vsing Presence, SWAT member is in the air dvcts a few inches
away
> from being able to see the 'real' vamp throvgh the grille, vsing a fiber
> optic snake cam to look at the room throvgh that same grille. [Yes/No]
See 2. The deliberate act of trying to perceive the vampire when so close
is what makes this sitvation different to jvst being the other side of the
wall.

> 6) Same SWAT gvy, now he's looking in the window vsing one of those 2'
long
> tactical periscopes (jvst mirrors, no electronics). [Yes/No]
See 2

> 7) SWAT again, this time vsing a snake cam vnder a closed, flimsy modern
> 'hollow pressboard' door.
See 2

> 8) vampire walks ovt into the middle of a Football field dvring Halftime
and
> fires vp Awe with 8 svxx. Do the folks in the nosebleed sections get
> affected by it? They can still see him, bvt only rovghly. [Yes/No]
Yes.

> 9) As 8, bvt an Awed cameraman immediately pvts the vamp's image vp on the
> Jvmbo-tron. [Yes/No]
The camerman is present, so yes. The folks in the editing van, no.
--
Picks-at-Flies
A flamewarrior, making a valiant stand against the Evil Scooby Gang.
http://www.werepengvin.net