What makes Historicon the largest historical miniature con..

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Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

Having studied the state of the hobby and the conventions around the
world I think I can say that Historicon is the Granddaddy of them all.
Why is that? We have dealers from mostly the eastern USA (Brookhurst,
Eureka, and Old London War Room being exceptions to the rule). We run
3 1/2 days of gaming and have over 300 games and 100 or so dealers
(80-100) can't remember the number of tables (150?). We have been
doing this for twenty years and are close to maxed out at the current
location (Some may not agree). Salute is larger in attendance but
can't touch the number of games and dealer and floor space. Plus we
are Historical Miniature and have minimal "alt" gaming events. We run
three conventions a year Fall In occurring in November, Cold Wars
March/April, and Historicon in July. Attendance at these three
conventions is several thousand. Is there a market for more historical
based gaming? Why does our smallest convention (Fall In) so out
perform other historical conventions around the country and the world?
I am so impressed with the quality of the games at our conventions
over the past several years. Some of the terrain set ups put displays
I have seen in major museums to shame. I think much of the credit for
the improvement of games does to the various groups on the INTERNET
such as the yahoo groups GMSN, and others that are rules related,
JRIII, Grande Armee, Volley and Bayonet, Classical Hack and many many
others. Why is it that other regions of the US do not have
conventions of this scale? I would expect the west coast to have as
many wargamers as the east but I do not see it reflected in the
numbers I see from dealers on line and in marketing research. What do
you think?
VR
James Mattes
HMGS-East VP for Marketing
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

>Why is it that other regions of the US do not have
>conventions of this scale? I would expect the west coast to have as
>many wargamers as the east but I do not see it reflected in the
>numbers I see from dealers on line and in marketing research. What do
>you think?
>VR
>James Mattes
>HMGS-East VP for Marketing

Jin, You need to get away from the East coast for a while! 8>)

My observations:

1. HMGS East has been doing "Historical Only" con the longerst. It makes sense
that they get the lion's share of the attention.

2. There are larger cons than H-Con is the USA (and besides Origins and
gencon). It's just that they cater to all gendres of gaming and are supported
by the same. In Denver, Ghengis Con, Tacticon and Ben-Con all feature
historicals. Nobody out here turns them away. Besides that, there are two local
historical clubs also putting on historical mini-cons, twice a year.

3. Not all folks enjoy playing games in such a large venue! I have attended 4
of those cons and have no desire to play in a game. This has also been echoed
by fellow Colorado attendees. We go to shop and socialize; we do our gaming at
home! 8>)

4. HMGS-East is to be commended for putting on cons. That said, con's only
cater to the converted. What efforts are undertaken for the other 343 days of
the year to promote Historical miniature gaming? Perhaps there are programs,
but hard to see from Colorado.

5. IMHO, the worst service the East cons do are to kill sales for regional
stores. More than one retail store owner has told me that they refuse to carry
historicals because when they did, the gamers would use thier store as a
showroon, but make their purchases at the cons! I hear the woes of locals that
cannot get our products locallly because the store will not carry them. It's a
"dog-chasing-it's -tail" situation! It also doesn't help that no pure
historical distributors exist where a store can "get it all".

6. Mindsets: It doesn't help to read about HMGS -East politics in national
forums! Living in Colorado, it denigrates the efforts to accomplish positive
goals. While it's probably impossible to stop politics in such a large
organization, the politics can be kept more "in house". We ahve a hard enough
time promoting the hobby without exposing potential newbies to the "leader"
(HMGS_EAST) and having them see the petty bickering. (OK, petty to one more
interested in learning about new periods, game systems, etc than dirty
laundry...which has little if any effect on a gamer outside of East's
boundaries.

7. It would be nice to see HMGS _ East work closer with the US manufacturers!
There is soooo much potential for mutual benefits than an entire posting
subject can be launched on the topic by itself!

I hope this items add to the discussion and provide an "outsider's" view that
you may not otherwise get. It will be interesting to see what follow-on posts
it generates.

Best,
Tom Dye
GFI
GFI/Minifigs: www.minifigs.com (303)361-6465
Attactix:Bill@attactix.com (303)699-3349

Makers of Minifigs to the Americas!
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

Jim,

I've said this before, but I'll say it again. Your basic underlying
assumption is wrong - the West Coast does not have as many gamers as the
East because it doesn't have as many people. While much of what Tom says is
true, the biggest issue is pure demographics, eg, 25%+ of the US population
lives within a day's drive of Lancaster. Looking at the NE US, from OH east
and Virginia north, you have a total population of 78.7 million people. Now
look at the followning states in the West - CA, WA, OR, ID, UT, NV and AZ.
This is an area that is nearly twice the size of the NE US (perhaps more),
but with a population of only 55.6 million, you have a much smaller
poulation density track. I mean for Pete's sake tiny NJ has a greater
population than any state out there except California.

Looking at a chunk of the West coast about the same size as the NE US, I'd
bet you are taling about 30 - 35 million max, or about half the population
of the East.

With these type of numbers its going to be real tough to pull Historicon
type numbers for a historical pure convention.

Regards, Bill Gray, HMGS East


"DYE4MINIS" <dye4minis@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040608173428.19877.00000657@mb-m02.aol.com...
> >Why is it that other regions of the US do not have
> >conventions of this scale? I would expect the west coast to have as
> >many wargamers as the east but I do not see it reflected in the
> >numbers I see from dealers on line and in marketing research. What do
> >you think?
> >VR
> >James Mattes
> >HMGS-East VP for Marketing
>
> Jin, You need to get away from the East coast for a while! 8>)
>
> My observations:
>
> 1. HMGS East has been doing "Historical Only" con the longerst. It makes
sense
> that they get the lion's share of the attention.
>
> 2. There are larger cons than H-Con is the USA (and besides Origins and
> gencon). It's just that they cater to all gendres of gaming and are
supported
> by the same. In Denver, Ghengis Con, Tacticon and Ben-Con all feature
> historicals. Nobody out here turns them away. Besides that, there are two
local
> historical clubs also putting on historical mini-cons, twice a year.
>
> 3. Not all folks enjoy playing games in such a large venue! I have
attended 4
> of those cons and have no desire to play in a game. This has also been
echoed
> by fellow Colorado attendees. We go to shop and socialize; we do our
gaming at
> home! 8>)
>
> 4. HMGS-East is to be commended for putting on cons. That said, con's only
> cater to the converted. What efforts are undertaken for the other 343 days
of
> the year to promote Historical miniature gaming? Perhaps there are
programs,
> but hard to see from Colorado.
>
> 5. IMHO, the worst service the East cons do are to kill sales for regional
> stores. More than one retail store owner has told me that they refuse to
carry
> historicals because when they did, the gamers would use thier store as a
> showroon, but make their purchases at the cons! I hear the woes of locals
that
> cannot get our products locallly because the store will not carry them.
It's a
> "dog-chasing-it's -tail" situation! It also doesn't help that no pure
> historical distributors exist where a store can "get it all".
>
> 6. Mindsets: It doesn't help to read about HMGS -East politics in national
> forums! Living in Colorado, it denigrates the efforts to accomplish
positive
> goals. While it's probably impossible to stop politics in such a large
> organization, the politics can be kept more "in house". We ahve a hard
enough
> time promoting the hobby without exposing potential newbies to the
"leader"
> (HMGS_EAST) and having them see the petty bickering. (OK, petty to one
more
> interested in learning about new periods, game systems, etc than dirty
> laundry...which has little if any effect on a gamer outside of East's
> boundaries.
>
> 7. It would be nice to see HMGS _ East work closer with the US
manufacturers!
> There is soooo much potential for mutual benefits than an entire posting
> subject can be launched on the topic by itself!
>
> I hope this items add to the discussion and provide an "outsider's" view
that
> you may not otherwise get. It will be interesting to see what follow-on
posts
> it generates.
>
> Best,
> Tom Dye
> GFI
> GFI/Minifigs: www.minifigs.com (303)361-6465
> Attactix:Bill@attactix.com (303)699-3349
>
> Makers of Minifigs to the Americas!
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

vojvoda13@yahoo.com (James Mattes) wrote in message news:<de8334fc.0406080717.4f0fea16@posting.google.com>...
? I would expect the west coast to have as
> many wargamers as the east but I do not see it reflected in the
> numbers I see from dealers on line and in marketing research. What do
> you think?
> VR
> James Mattes
> HMGS-East VP for Marketing

It is so nice to see the HMGS East Marketing director congratulating
HMGS-East on its marketing! Self-congratulation is an HMGS-East
tradition (See Scruby Awards).

Why would you think there are as many wargamers in the West? Broadly
speaking, 2/3 of the US population is East of the Mississippi. The
population density per square mile along the Northern Eastern seaboard
is several multiples higher than anywhere in the West save Los
Angeles.

The number of wargamers is strictly a fixed percentage of the
population, as is true of any small, esoteric, hobby. There are more
scrapbookers in the East,too! Before you congratulate yourselves too
much, also consider that HMGS-East has an added benefit of a
concentration of multiple historical battle sites of some historical
interest. It is also located within one driving day of the majority
of wargamers in the US. These factors seem to be more determinative
than any wisdom shown by the overly proud few.

You might also observe that HMGS East, in its steadfast goal of
limiting the risk of any new ideas, input or leadership from any other
locale, has effectively discouraged the growth of wargaming. Noting
the apparent lack of any measurable gain in the number of historical
wargamers-they have been successful in this regard.

HMGS-East has, after all these years, seemed to have learned how to
replicate the same identical convention every year. No surprises, no
changes, no innovations, and few new faces. One could attend once
every 5 years and never miss a thing, save for a few offerings at the
dealers' tables.

But never worry, there is absolutely nothing HMGS-East can do to
destroy Historicon-sheer inertia and population dynamics will protect
you.

As for Tom Dye's complaint about HMGS-East politics; I think most
gamers would say that one of the few benefits of convention fees and
dues is the entertainment value of watching the self-centered few
wrangle over the inconsequential in pursuit of the laughably low
stakes of control of HMGS-East. Add to this the self-protective
stridency of their claims of not being a national convention (which
might just demand national input and the representation of new voices)
and you have a nice little comedy of manners. The amused auslander
might say they are endearingly parochial.


BJ
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

"Col \(Ret\) Bill Gray" <hmgs1@hmgs.org> wrote in message news:<UrqdnfhX69ZvY1vdRVn-jw@comcast.com>...

> the biggest issue is pure demographics, eg, 25%+ of the US population
> lives within a day's drive of Lancaster.
>


This alone accounts for the attendance at HMGS-E cons. With that kind
of population density, it puts a couple thousand gamers at Historicon
on a par with a largish club meeting in most parts of the Midwest,
when figured as a percentage of the nearby population. Perhaps the
question should be "with those demographic resources available, why is
Historicon so small?"

Regards,

Jeff
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

vojvoda13@yahoo.com (James Mattes) wrote in message news:<de8334fc.0406091950.6a53f68a@posting.google.com>...

> Gosh you would think folks could read the thread title before going on
> a personal attack. The question was "What makes HISTORICON the
> largest "HISTORICAL" miniature convention in the free world."

BJ: Gosh, it would be nice if you gave any thought to your easily
answered questions prior to asking them. It would also be peachy if
you had a better comprehension of the replies by several respondents.

>
> Broken down here are the five questions I posed to the list:
>
> Why is that?

BJ: Mssrs. Gray, Jones, and Knudsen answered that softball question
pretty well.

>
> Is there a market for more historical
> based gaming?

BJ: Probably not. The hobby is so small that any research sample is
hard to validate. I have seen zero data that would support growth.
Certainly HMGS-East has never demonstrated that they have had any
effect in that regard.

>
> Why does our smallest convention (Fall In) so out
> perform other historical conventions around the country and the world?

BJ: An unsupported contention-though, if true, the demographic
arguments presented by Mssrs. Gray, Knudsen, and Jones seem logical
and adequate to explain the "success" of the HMGS-East conventions.
>
> Why is it that other regions of the US do not have
> conventions of this scale?

BJ: See above. You did read the replies?
>
> What do
> you think?

BJ: That you show little aptitude for research, marketing, or basic US
demographics.
>
> VR
> James Mattes
> HMGS-East VP for Marketing
>

>
> >
> > But never worry, there is absolutely nothing HMGS-East can do to
> > destroy Historicon-sheer inertia and population dynamics will protect
> > you.
>
> Why would you assume that East is trying to destroy Hcon in any
> manner? Fall In! maybe if you believe the hype of some but I really do
> not see the means, motive or opportunity (the three characteristics of
> terrorist threat analysis) for East to undertake such actions.

BJ: Again, a failure to understand English. There is NO implied
conscious will on the part of HMGS-East to destroy Historicon in my
remarks, simply a statement that no matter what HMGS-East does,
Historicon, et al will endure. HMGS-East seems to have NO
demonstrable will other than the continued role of the Usual Suspects.
The conventions will not decline in size or numbers, but probably
won't grow. They won't be any more tedious, but not any less tedious.
In short, the role of HMGS-East other than hosting the event- will
have little effect pro or con on its quality or existence.
>
> >
> > As for Tom Dye's complaint about HMGS-East politics; I think most
> > gamers would say that one of the few benefits of convention fees and
> > dues is the entertainment value of watching the self-centered few
> > wrangle over the inconsequential in pursuit of the laughably low
> > stakes of control of HMGS-East.
>
> I am really sorry that you feel that those of us who are interested in
> the charter of the organization and have taken our own time to promote
> the hobby are only (in your words) self-centered and only after the
> control of HMGS-East. Perhaps if you care to I can send you an invite
> to join the marketing team?

BJ: Team? I guess you're right... If the Marx Brothers, Abbott and
Costello, Martin & Lewis, George and Gracie are teams, then, so should
be the HMGS-East Marketing "team."
>
>
> Add to this the self-protective
> > stridency of their claims of not being a national convention
>
> Now that is my position not the organization per say. I don't want
> HMGS-East to be National. We serve the needs (via our three
> conventions and outreach via support of the affiliated clubs) of our
> members and promote the hobby in our region. I will gladly assist
> other chapters where I can with materials, labor and resources at my
> disposal for the promotion of the hobby.

BJ: Well, that's worked well! Just silliness, I guess, to think the
largest organization dedicated to wargaming should have an active role
in the growth of the hobby outside of the Baltimore/Lancaster axis.
>
> Can't we all just get along?
> VR
> James Mattes
>
BJ: No whining-please!
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

vojvoda13@yahoo.com (James Mattes) wrote in message news:<de8334fc.0406091950.6a53f68a@posting.google.com>...

> Why is that?

I'll answer with my opinions, as someone who always wanted to attend
Historicon but hasn't managed it yet.

Assuming it is the largest historical miniatures convention (I don't
know what's happening in Germany, for instance, which regularly gets
over 100,000 attendees for their big board game convention), I'd say
there are two main reasons: demographics and timing.

The convention is in the U.S. north east. The population density has
already been stated on this thread. Also add the population of
southern Ontario, which is also within driving distance of the
convention (I used to live in Toronto; I'm now in Louisiana).

The convention is held at the height of the North American vacation
season.

There's also the reputation of the convention. People know that it's
the big historical convention and so it becomes the big show to attend
if you can only attend one.

(Well, some people know. In 2000 I was running some miniatures games
at GenCon. I was signing in when a player came up looking for
historical games. The head of Miniatures HQ said there were a few, but
not many. He suggested that if the guy wanted historicals he'd be
better off served going to Origins as it was the "big historicals
convention". At that point both me and the guy he was talking to said,
"No, Historicon," in unison. The Miniatures HQ guy admitted that he
knew very little about conventions other than the Andon/WotC events.)

> Is there a market for more historical
> based gaming?

I would say yes, but then again I'm stuck playing solitaire as there
is virtually no one around here that I can play against (though I
haven't looked at joining any groups in Jackson, MS, or Shreveport,
both of which are about 2 hours away). I'm dying to play again, so I'm
definitely part of an untapped market.

> Why does our smallest convention (Fall In) so out
> perform other historical conventions around the country and the world?

Again, I don't know about "the world". Demographics is probably the
big advantage for Fall In. It's the only HMGS convention I ever
attended, and that was because it fit into my schedule the year I went
and it was a day's drive from Toronto.

Will I attend it again? Perhaps. I like the Gettysburg location
(definitely a plus for me, as my wife liked the area) and so that is
probably also part of the draw.

However it's no longer a day's drive away, but closer to about 20
hours. Bayou Wars and the Texas conventions are much closer to me. I
would be at Bayou Wars this year but they changed dates at the last
minute, and I had other things come up. I'm guessing that it's much
more likely I'll attend Bayou Wars in upcoming years than Fall In.
Since more people are closer to Fall In than Bayou Wars, it doesn't
surprise me that Fall In gets more attendees.

> Why is it that other regions of the US do not have
> conventions of this scale?

Population density.

I live about five hours from Little Rock, Dallas, Houston, Baton
Rouge, New Orleans, and Memphis. You sure wouldn't want to put a
convention here in northeast Louisiana, though, as the number of
locals (up to 2 hours away) simply isn't enough to sustain a
convention. Those cities have at most one other city within a 5 hour
radius. How many big cities are within 5 hours of Lancaster PA? I know
Baltimore and Washington, but that also puts New York in range too,
doesn't it?
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

vojvoda13@yahoo.com (James Mattes) wrote in message news:<de8334fc.0406080717.4f0fea16@posting.google.com>...
> Having studied the state of the hobby and the conventions around the
> world I think I can say that Historicon is the Granddaddy of them all.
> Why is that? ...... Is there a market for more historical
> based gaming? Why does our smallest convention (Fall In) so out
> perform other historical conventions around the country and the world?
> Why is it that other regions of the US do not have
> conventions of this scale? I would expect the west coast to have as
> many wargamers as the east but I do not see it reflected in the
> numbers I see from dealers on line and in marketing research. What do
> you think?
*NJH: I doubt you could be any more patronizing and condescending to
the rest of the very fine historical conventions around North America.
I'll try to explain this again for the geographically and
demographically challenged.

States like Washington and Oregon are geographically larger than all
of New England, yet their entire population is smaller than that of
Boston, MA. In Washington the three largest cities Seattle (560,000),
Tacoma (200,000), and Spokane (200,000) added together do not have a
million inhabitants.

A good day's drive on the East Coast can get a person from Portland,
Maine to Washington DC (BTDT). Out here, (from Seattle or Portland) it
will get you to Idaho, if you go across the narrow part of Idaho (from
Seattle) you might just make it into Western Montana. A good day's
drive from Seattle might just get you into Northern California, with a
wee bit of luck.

On the West Coast, distances are so great and the population so
sparse, the fact we have a convention at all is a minor miracle.
Sometimes we only have one or two people coming from the rural areas
East of the Cascades. Oops, that's another issue, the Mountain ranges
only have a half dozen passes, most of which are closed in the Winter.
And, East of the mountains we have the desert, which can be really
nasty at times.

So next time you sprain your wrist patting yourself on the back for
having the very good fortune to plop your convention in the middle of
the most densely populated part of the USA, you'll have a little time
to contemplate the difficulties of pulling together a convention
without a population base to support such a venture. Next time you
wish to engage in a self-indulgent exercise, please do some basic
homework before hand. And, remember California is not the entire West
Coast, despite what people may say and think.

We do very nicely out here in our log cabins where we play historical
miniatures by candle light. However, we don't appreciate the
disrespect that we receive from Eastern Hobby Officials who have
failed to do rudimentary homework. If you want to be a cheerleader for
HMGS-East, be my guest, but don't do so at our expense.

Cheers
Norris Hazelton
President, Northwest Historical Miniature Gaming Society
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

NJH wrote:

> So next time you sprain your wrist patting yourself on the back for
> having the very good fortune to plop your convention in the middle of
> the most densely populated part of the USA, you'll have a little time
> to contemplate the difficulties of pulling together a convention
> without a population base to support such a venture.

I know of a number of communities similar to gaming that have given
up on having one huge west coast convention and had good results
from having smaller "north" and "south" gatherings - some
alternating years, others alternating seasons.


Robert Huff
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

djcoaltrain@aol.com (NJH) wrote in message news:<aa3d875c.0406121941.1981b485@posting.google.com>...
> vojvoda13@yahoo.com (James Mattes) wrote in message news:<de8334fc.0406080717.4f0fea16@posting.google.com>...
> > Having studied the state of the hobby and the conventions around the
> > world I think I can say that Historicon is the Granddaddy of them all.
> > Why is that? ...... Is there a market for more historical
> > based gaming? Why does our smallest convention (Fall In) so out
> > perform other historical conventions around the country and the world?
> > Why is it that other regions of the US do not have
> > conventions of this scale? I would expect the west coast to have as
> > many wargamers as the east but I do not see it reflected in the
> > numbers I see from dealers on line and in marketing research. What do
> > you think?
> *NJH: I doubt you could be any more patronizing and condescending to
> the rest of the very fine historical conventions around North America.
> I'll try to explain this again for the geographically and
> demographically challenged.

<<snip>>

BJ: Yet another fine reply. It is HMGS-East's long standing lack of
understanding of anything West of the Appalachians-especially, and
particularly, concerning the hobby of Wargaming, that boggles the
mind. It is this myopia that has led to a general devaluing of the
contribution of Western wargamers to the hobby and its history.

The myth of "Wally's Basement" as some sort of Big Bang that began
wargaming in the US as we know it-is a self-congratulatory bit of
propaganda. The potted histories of wargaming that come out of the
East are so geo-centric as to be laughable. The hobby's lack of any
objective history( Any history, for that matter) is odd for an
activity supposedly motivated by an interest in history!

I note that the main award the association gives is the "Scruby
Award" named for the one man that probably had more to do with the
growth of wargaming in the US than anyone else. He was a Westerner
from Visalia, California. It is also instructive that NO ONE from
West of the Mississippi has EVER received the Award. Only a couple of
recipients are from West of Lancaster, about as many as have been
given to Englishmen from farther East! It seems the eyes of the
HMGS-East group only look to the East.

There are hundreds of attendees and vendors from West of the
Mississippi that schlep figures and terrain thousands of miles to
HMGS-East venues with little or no moral support or recognition from
HMGS-East. HMGS-East is so caught up in their own world view that they
see little difference between their loading an SUV with four boxes and
driving a couple of hours and the travails of the Westerners that do
attend.

The parochial atiitude of the Lancaster Few, coupled with cronyism and
the worst sort of regionalism, has robbed the hobby of opportunities
for growth and new ideas that one would expect from the largest and
oldest hobby venues.


BJ
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

djcoaltrain@aol.com (NJH) wrote in message news:<aa3d875c.0406121941.1981b485@posting.google.com>...
> vojvoda13@yahoo.com (James Mattes) wrote in message news:<de8334fc.0406080717.4f0fea16@posting.google.com>...
> > Having studied the state of the hobby and the conventions around the
> > world I think I can say that Historicon is the Granddaddy of them all.
> > Why is that? ...... Is there a market for more historical
> > based gaming?

> *NJH: I doubt you could be any more patronizing and condescending to
> the rest of the very fine historical conventions around North America.
> I'll try to explain this again for the geographically and
> demographically challenged.

Norris please don't take some individuals spin on my posting and
attach it to me. My question was world wide. See title of this thread.
I did pose the question of why there were not other conventions in
other regions of the area.

Demographics. Bill Gray and I have exchanged posting on this for
several years since I did a comparison of locations of members around
2001. I see our (HMGS-East) membership reflecting where our
conventions are not where the membership is located.

As to the Population per square mile it has some merit and was part of
the question I asked. I also do not buy it lock, stock, and barrel.
Other conventions of smaller hobbies, trade shows, etc are not all in
the NCR. Why is that? Would they not draw more members/visitors to
their conventions if they were? I see some factors in the proposal
that it is due to population destiny, but I do not think that is the
decisive factor. One other factor I have looked into is disposable
income and free time. Federal employees and those associated with the
Federal Government (and yes I have been both in the past) have I
believe a disproportional amount of each to the general population of
the continental United States.

I have lived in the West and I am from the Southwest. I have driven
hours to game in friends homes and to shop in various game shops.
Prior to the online trend I will note for the record. I have also
driven and flown to conventions around the country. No, not many were
historical miniature game cons but the point is the same. Driving
distance is a factor but I think it is as much a rationalization as it
is ground truth.

As for Marketing and promotions (FTR I consider myself the HMGS-East
promotion guy) I am not in the marketing role, as I do not sell a
product or service but work towards promoting the hobby.

As for California I will have to go back and check but I do not think
I was ONLY referring to Ca. I think TX and Illinois are two areas that
have strong historical gaming communities in the past.

Perhaps the reason HMGS-east has such strong conventions is the
volunteer base that support running the conventions and promoting the
hobby.

As for the log cabin remarks I think you should look back over the
past several years worth of postings on the net I have made regarding
the conventions and hobby before you state I have not done my
homework. Because I do not reach the same conclusions as you does not
mean my dissertation is any less valid. Nor the fact that I am a
member of HMGS-East.

If you really do feel I was in some way slighting you or others
outside the beltway I offer my apologies. I do feel that some who have
responded here and on other locations are being too thin skinned
VR
James Mattes

> Cheers
> Norris Hazelton
> President, Northwest Historical Miniature Gaming Society
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

highwiremedia@earthlink.net (Bob Jones) wrote in message news:<73e9b810.0406100831.2dfd6982@posting.google.com>...
> vojvoda13@yahoo.com (James Mattes) wrote in message news:<de8334fc.0406091950.6a53f68a@posting.google.com>...

I was just going to let this go but I have to ask. What makes you so
mean spirited in all your postings? The one time I have talked to you
and through folks who have told me about you in the past I did not get
the same impression. If you want to tear down my comments fine.

> BJ: Gosh, it would be nice if you gave any thought to your easily
> answered questions prior to asking them. It would also be peachy if
> you had a better comprehension of the replies by several respondents.

If I knew all the answers why would I ask these questions?


> > Broken down here are the five questions I posed to the list:
> > Why is that?
>
> BJ: Mssrs. Gray, Jones, and Knudsen answered that softball question
> pretty well.

Three views from three individuals who you agree with. Is your
argument that it is so because they say so. Perhaps you could
recommend or put forth some not so "softball" questions on the
subject.


> > Why does our smallest convention (Fall In) so out
> > perform other historical conventions around the country and the world?
>
> BJ: An unsupported contention-though, if true, the demographic
> arguments presented by Mssrs. Gray, Knudsen, and Jones seem logical
> and adequate to explain the "success" of the HMGS-East conventions.

My statistics are from number of games run, dealers, attendance and
other data I have been able to gather the past few years. I will give
you if there is a convention in Plano Texas (one of my homes so don't
accuse me of slamming Plano) that is not on line I might now know
about it. Quality of the convention experience is a subjective factor
that I did not use for this analogy.


> > What do
> > you think?
>
> BJ: That you show little aptitude for research, marketing, or basic US
> demographics.

I think you know what the question was about not some barb you can
attempt to stick on me personally.


> > > As for Tom Dye's complaint about HMGS-East politics; I think most
> > > gamers would say that one of the few benefits of convention fees and
> > > dues is the entertainment value of watching the self-centered few
> > > wrangle over the inconsequential in pursuit of the laughably low
> > > stakes of control of HMGS-East.
> >
> > I am really sorry that you feel that those of us who are interested in
> > the charter of the organization and have taken our own time to promote
> > the hobby are only (in your words) self-centered and only after the
> > control of HMGS-East. Perhaps if you care to I can send you an invite
> > to join the marketing team?
>
> BJ: Team? I guess you're right... If the Marx Brothers, Abbott and
> Costello, Martin & Lewis, George and Gracie are teams, then, so should
> be the HMGS-East Marketing "team."

You will have to forgive me if I do not pass on your platitudes to
those on the marketing list.

VR
James Mattes
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

agoodall@hyperbear.com (Allan Goodall) wrote in message news:<ebc7b176.0406100859.3324d37b@posting.google.com>...
> vojvoda13@yahoo.com (James Mattes) wrote in message news:<de8334fc.0406091950.6a53f68a@posting.google.com>...
>
> > Why is that?

>
> (Well, some people know. In 2000 I was running some miniatures games
> at GenCon. I was signing in when a player came up looking for
> historical games. The head of Miniatures HQ said there were a few, but
> not many. He suggested that if the guy wanted historicals he'd be
> better off served going to Origins as it was the "big historicals
> convention". At that point both me and the guy he was talking to said,
> "No, Historicon," in unison. The Miniatures HQ guy admitted that he
> knew very little about conventions other than the Andon/WotC events.)

Yes that is too true. Part of my objective in conducting outreach via
Yahoo groups (some may know me from there) is to make sure I never see
another posting that asks what is Hcon.


>
> > Is there a market for more historical
> > based gaming?
>
> I would say yes, but then again I'm stuck playing solitaire as there
> is virtually no one around here that I can play against (though I
> haven't looked at joining any groups in Jackson, MS, or Shreveport,
> both of which are about 2 hours away). I'm dying to play again, so I'm
> definitely part of an untapped market.

Have you checked the Yahoo groups. I know we have a listing of clubs
in Ms.

>
> Will I attend it again? Perhaps. I like the Gettysburg location
> (definitely a plus for me, as my wife liked the area) and so that is
> probably also part of the draw.

I agree Gettysburg is one of my favorite places on the face of the
Earth.




>
> > Why is it that other regions of the US do not have
> > conventions of this scale?
>
> Population density.

See my other posting about this below.

> I live about five hours from Little Rock, Dallas, Houston, Baton
> Rouge, New Orleans, and Memphis. You sure wouldn't want to put a
> convention here in northeast Louisiana, though, as the number of
> locals (up to 2 hours away) simply isn't enough to sustain a
> convention. Those cities have at most one other city within a 5 hour
> radius. How many big cities are within 5 hours of Lancaster PA? I know
> Baltimore and Washington, but that also puts New York in range too,
> doesn't it?

Why are other hobby type conventions so successful in locations such
as Las Vegas where the nearest living thing are the three headed
aliens at NTS.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

>BJ: Yet another fine reply. It is HMGS-East's long standing lack of
>understanding of anything West of the Appalachians-especially, and
>particularly, concerning the hobby of Wargaming, that boggles the
>mind. It is this myopia that has led to a general devaluing of the
>contribution of Western wargamers to the hobby and its history.
>

Hey BJ. While you are spot on, IMHO, I also offer two reasons for this:

1. The obvious: H-Con, Cold Wars and Fall-in are HMGS_East cons; while many of
us see them a "National", in reality, they are merely regional cons. HMGS-East
has made that clear so many times....(that there is NO "National
Organization"....so they MUST be regional cons.

2. YOU were a founding member of the Colorado Military Historians (what, some
30 years ago?) You are among the few remaining that have the history of the
corporate experience in Colorado. Why not write a narrative of what gaming has
been like out west for all of us? After all, you DID post:

<<The hobby's lack of any
objective history( Any history, for that matter) is odd for an
activity supposedly motivated by an interest in history!>>

Greg Skelley has a fine collection of old newsletters that could be
helpful....besuides also being another founding member.

My point is that you are uniquely qualified to write such a history, being one
of the founders out here. Ever think that perhaps why HMGS-East is always
referring to Wally's Basement is just an attempt tto educate how THEY got
started? Who else has ever spouted THEIR origins? We (westerners) should do the
same so others can see that East does NOT have a monopoly on organized play in
the USA!

As I see it, HMGS-East is rightfully proud to share their experience in the
hobby. Likewise, why shouldn't others? It could actually give hope to those
that aren't close to any clubs like CMH, CHG, HMGS- Anywhere, that they , TOO,
can get a club started.

Just an observation, Bob. Request you give it some thought. Am sure a lot of us
would be willing to help with such a project.

Best,
Tom Dye
GFI
GFI/Minifigs: www.minifigs.com (303)361-6465
Attactix:Bill@attactix.com (303)699-3349

Makers of Minifigs to the Americas!
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

>Why are other hobby type conventions so successful in locations such
>as Las Vegas where the nearest living thing are the three headed
>aliens at NTS.

Just an opinion, but I'm thinking b/c more than the hobbyist can have fun in
Vegas. I mean, it is alright for single guys (say in this hobby) to drive
someplace for a long weekend if they have no family commitments.

But, if someone with social obligations to family/girlfriend/other, wants to
go, the other people need some outlet as well. At least in most relationships
with which I am acquainted.

So, by hosting events in Vegas, the whole family (in whatever form) can find
something to do. Also, it can be sold to everyone at home as a "vacation"
rather than just a game (in the context of this hobby).

Anyway, just a thought.

BTW: in answer to your reply to one of the other replies to your post, yes, he
does have to be nasty, it is his habit in many cases, not all, but many.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

samvanga@aol.com (SamVanga) wrote in message news:<20040613170208.13966.00000872@mb-m18.aol.com>...
> >Why are other hobby type conventions so svccessfvl in locations svch
> >as Las Vegas where the nearest living thing are the three headed
> >aliens at NTS.
>
> Jvst an opinion, bvt I'm thinking b/c more than the hobbyist can have fvn in
> Vegas. I mean, it is alright for single gvys (say in this hobby) to drive
> someplace for a long weekend if they have no family commitments.
>
> Bvt, if someone with social obligations to family/girlfriend/other, wants to
> go, the other people need some ovtlet as well. At least in most relationships
> with which I am acqvainted.
>
> So, by hosting events in Vegas, the whole family (in whatever form) can find
> something to do. Also, it can be sold to everyone at home as a "vacation"
> rather than jvst a game (in the context of this hobby).
>
> Anyway, jvst a thovght.
>
> BTW: in answer to yovr reply to one of the other replies to yovr post, yes, he
> does have to be nasty, it is his habit in many cases, not all, bvt many.

BJ: After many visits and rvnning a covple of conventions ovt there,
yovr svggestion brings forth sheer dread. The problem with Las Vegas
is that if yov don't want to gamble; and if sheer tasteless excess
makes yov slightly navseovs, then yov're S.O.L. Not to mention that
the place is abovt as devoid of any history( or at least any that the
local Chamber of Commerce wovld want to talk abovt) as any place in
the US. I'd love to see Bob G. deal with the L.V. vnions! I svppose
some people wovld get excited abovt Wayne Newton singing one more
chorvs of Danke Shoen to the missvs, bvt Las Vegas is jvst a big
Wal-Mart with slot machines, silicon titties, and neon overload.

How abovt Visalia? 🙂

The West has great cities like Seattle, San Francisco, Santa Fe, and
Denver. All with "Real" History, local color, and taste, and yov
wanna show these Eastern lads Las Vegas! Egad!

That's as if the first tovr for vs Westerners wovld be centered on
Atlantic City!


BJ
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

Other conventions of smaller hobbies, trade shows, etc are not all in
the NCR. Why is that? Would they not draw more members/visitors to
their conventions if they were? I see some factors in the proposal
that it is due to population destiny, but I do not think that is the
decisive factor.


That's a no brainer to test that theory! Just hold Historicon somewhere out
west! (Say, St. Louis?)

<<If you really do feel I was in some way slighting you or others
outside the beltway I offer my apologies. I do feel that some who have
responded here and on other locations are being too thin skinned>>

Appology accepted. As for being too thinned skinned, suggest you go back and
re-read the tone of your original posting. It sure came across the way folks
have been responding to it!

There are too many other folks in the USA that continue to work hard to promote
Historical miniature gaming besides HMGS-East.(Yes, I caught the part about the
"world", but the respondants seem to all be Americans--and perhaps one or two
of our Canadian bretheren). To suggest that their efforts are not resulting in
being serious contention to East's cons came across as an insulting comment.

You received some very good and serious feedback regarding demographics
(including distances) that seem to be more than valid. But you cannot say that
"historicon sized" cons aren't happening across the country due to the lack of
committment from the con organizers! I usggest that perhaps the opposite is
closer to the truth! Because of the demographics, they have to work harder to
influence far away gamers to make the trip. The fact that so many of the cons
seem to be growing is proof that their efforts are working! (Imagine what THAT
kind of dedication could do for East"s cons! )

I see this whole interesting discussion leading to support for a national
organization, where the talents of all of these folks can expand the corporate
knowledge for not just putting on cons, but overall promoting of the hobby in
general.

Of course, that would also result in HMGS-East losing some control over things,
and I don't see East being willing to give up that power, easily. I feel that
the dominating feeling there is that they have worked too hard to get to that
point; let others learn and do on their own....which results in posts like
these. (Which is a shame for American and Canadian Historical Miniature gamers
as there is a distinct lack of leadership with an "all encompassing" vision.)

Just my 2 scheckles worth, Jim.

Best,
Tom Dye
GFI
GFI/Minifigs: www.minifigs.com (303)361-6465
Attactix:Bill@attactix.com (303)699-3349

Makers of Minifigs to the Americas!
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

One last thought just struck me: "Well, why doesn't some other chapter or
organization step up to the leadership role and organize a national movement?"

Answer: Probably for the same reasons why you don't see countries like Uganda
spearheading anti-terrorist efforts in Indonesia. (They aren't affluent enough
to succeed.)

Just another thought.

Tom Dye
GFI
GFI/Minifigs: www.minifigs.com (303)361-6465
Attactix:Bill@attactix.com (303)699-3349

Makers of Minifigs to the Americas!
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

Jim asks:
<<Three views from three individuals who you agree with. Is your
argument that it is so because they say so. Perhaps you could
recommend or put forth some not so "softball" questions on the
subject.>>

While be it far from me to actually come to the defense of Bob Jones and his
barbed style of communications on the internet (he's much different in
person...a Jeckle and Hyde situation to be sure!) but he does have a point!

As you can see, there are more than three that think like he does on this
subject. So here is a non-softball question for you:

Why not hold Historicon in a more centralized location in North America? (Like
St. Louis?) (And PLEASE don't give me the "It's too far for us to travel" bit
as Historicon sees hundreds that travel from all across the country to
attend....why can't East gamers do the same?) Such a convention would provide
some hardball answers to some of the questions you are trying to seriously ask,
here.

Think of the potential for the good of the hobby! I know of folks that would
attend if Historicon was much closer. Attendance wise, the potential is there
to actually see a modest incease in attendance....from NEW faces with new ideas
and games.

Yeah, I know it won't happen under the umbrella of HMGS-East, But the fact is
that SOMEONE will one day do it. Have to admit that the idea is worth bantering
around, isn't it?

Best,
Tom Dye
GFI
GFI/Minifigs: www.minifigs.com (303)361-6465
Attactix:Bill@attactix.com (303)699-3349

Makers of Minifigs to the Americas!
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

Sorry, but I would NEVER take my family to Vegas -- not that that
matters any more as the kids are on their own these days. As for
"stuff" to do, my kids got a bigger charge out of Gettysburg than almost
any where else we went (go figure). This is not to say they went
willingly but once there . . .

Personally, I think the East Coast venue would not improve significantly
by moving to, say St. Louis. True you'd pick up some folks but you'd
also loose some folks.

Seems to me facilities are THE biggest deal for these events. I could
be wrong here but why not identify actual facilities / price em /
identify other attractions AND THEN talk about a change.

This whole discussion appears to be putting the cart in front of the
horse.

Disclaimer: This message is my opinion only and is not intended to
offend anyone nor specifically address any particular post. Most of
all, it is not directed at Sam.

Hope you all had a good weekend and got a game in.

mjc



SamVanga wrote:

>>Why are other hobby type conventions so successful in locations such
>>as Las Vegas where the nearest living thing are the three headed
>>aliens at NTS.
>
>
> Just an opinion, but I'm thinking b/c more than the hobbyist can have fun in
> Vegas. I mean, it is alright for single guys (say in this hobby) to drive
> someplace for a long weekend if they have no family commitments.
>
> But, if someone with social obligations to family/girlfriend/other, wants to
> go, the other people need some outlet as well. At least in most relationships
> with which I am acquainted.
>
> So, by hosting events in Vegas, the whole family (in whatever form) can find
> something to do. Also, it can be sold to everyone at home as a "vacation"
> rather than just a game (in the context of this hobby).
>
> Anyway, just a thought.
>
> BTW: in answer to your reply to one of the other replies to your post, yes, he
> does have to be nasty, it is his habit in many cases, not all, but many.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

dye4minis@aol.com (DYE4MINIS) wrote in message news:<20040613171738.15979.00001025@mb-m16.aol.com>...
> Other conventions of smaller hobbies, trade shows, etc are not all in
> the NCR. Why is that? Would they not draw more members/visitors to
> their conventions if they were? I see some factors in the proposal
> that it is due to population destiny, but I do not think that is the
> decisive factor.
>
>
> That's a no brainer to test that theory! Just hold Historicon somewhere out
> west! (Say, St. Louis?)

While in theroy St Louis is central it is also in HMGS-Midwest's back
yard. They do a fine job with Little Wars and I would not want to do a
run on the bank in their turf unlike some. I do not think the
membership would support HMGS-East selling/giving/loaning etc Hcon to
an other chapter or National organization. For one the only real
resource is the name and date. Other than that all the assets are
chapter assets, and resources. I would think any large convention run
about the same time as Hcon would only work if it were far enough West
to draw those dealers and gamers and GMs that consider it too far to
travel to Hcon. Dallas would be my city of choice if I had to start
looking in the West. San Francisco is a Great town, and there are
others. Last I checked I think Dallas is a right to work state as well
;-)
VR
James Mattes
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

<<Personally, I think the East Coast venue would not improve significantly
by moving to, say St. Louis. True you'd pick up some folks but you'd
also loose some folks>>

True, but one never knows. I think that it would be interesting to try. I
definately believe that there are more historical gamers within a days drive to
St. Louis than where it is now. That would include as far awa y as Chicago,
Denver, Kansas City, Oklahoma City, Ohio, parts of Kentucky, Indiana etc. there
is a considerable number of historical miniature gamers within a days drive.

Only the most dedicated from the East would make the trip, but the potential
exists for the show to be just as big a success....but with many NEW faces.

Remember, there is a considerable number of gamers that travel (by air, mostly)
to H-Con from all over the USA. Anyone from HMGS have any stats as to exact
numbers? If so, that many East gamers would have to attend to keep things
"equal" in tthose that support East's cons. (Which I doubt that many would come
to support a con outside their HMGS-East region.)

Las Vegas is quite a successful venue for "other" cons. Perhaps not as good for
a Historical con, I admit!

best,
Tom Dye
GFI
GFI/Minifigs: www.minifigs.com (303)361-6465
Attactix:Bill@attactix.com (303)699-3349

Makers of Minifigs to the Americas!
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

What not have two? One east coastish and one west coastish.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

Actually Tom, I think you are likely off in terms of the number of
available gamers for a St Louis show. Using the JTR figure of a day's
drive = 6 hours, here are the following stats via MS MapPoint
segregated by Census Bureau MSA.

ST LOUIS:

St Louis - 2.6 million
Chicago - 8.2
Indianapolis - 1.6
Louisville - 1.0
Cincinnati - 1.6
Nashville - 1.3
Memphis - 1.2
Kansas City - 1.8
TOTAL - 16.7 million

LANCASTER, PA:

Cleveland - 2.2 million
Pittsburgh - 2.3
Richmond - 1.0
Rochester - 1.0
Hartford - 1.1
Providence - 1.1
New York - 8.9
Philadelphia - 4.9
Baltimore - 2.5
DC/NVA - 5.1
New Jersey Aggregate (there are 5 MSA's in this state) - 8.3
TOTAL - 38.4 million

Bottom line is that within a day's drive or so, Lancaster can count
over twice as many bodies as St Louis. In fact, within three hours the
Lancaster total is still 29.7 million, or some 13 million more people
than St Louis can count at 6 hours. Demographically I just don't see
it happening, though obviously there are other factors to consider.

And while Jim and I may have to agree to disagree on this point, I do
have to say there is something in his assertion that HMGS East
membership is driven by the proximity of our conventions. A LOT of
East members don't give a damn about politics (actually, good for
them:) and join the Chapter simply because they get discounts to
attend some first rate conventions, all three of which happen to be
reasonably close by. If you magically put Historicon (and East) in
Seattle, its very likely the majority of your membership would then
come from the Washington, Oregon, Northern California areas. My only
proviso would be that since that area of the country is less densly
populated than where Historicon sits now, your overall Chapter
membership is likely to be much less. There would still be lots of
gamers in Philadelphia, they just wouldn't be members of the Chapter.
Thus the two issues of Chapter numbers and convention numbers are very
interrelated, and in this regard putting Historicon in Lancaster kinda
boosts both sides of the equation in an almost chicken-egg sort of
way.

And finally one thing I will back up Jim on is attitude. Jim requested
information, period. I saw nothing to suggest a demeaning or arrogant
perspective towards anyone. Heck, I looked at my own response and
thought it perhaps a bit too blunt (apolgies here). Really, we're not
discussing anything here that will impact on world peace or even the
price of a Frapachino at the local Starbucks. Can we lighten up a bit?

Regards, Bill Gray








dye4minis@aol.com (DYE4MINIS) wrote in message news:<20040614011109.16349.00001017@mb-m29.aol.com>...
> <<Personally, I think the East Coast venue would not improve significantly
> by moving to, say St. Louis. True you'd pick up some folks but you'd
> also loose some folks>>
>
> True, but one never knows. I think that it would be interesting to try. I
> definately believe that there are more historical gamers within a days drive to
> St. Louis than where it is now. That would include as far awa y as Chicago,
> Denver, Kansas City, Oklahoma City, Ohio, parts of Kentucky, Indiana etc. there
> is a considerable number of historical miniature gamers within a days drive.
>
> Only the most dedicated from the East would make the trip, but the potential
> exists for the show to be just as big a success....but with many NEW faces.
>
> Remember, there is a considerable number of gamers that travel (by air, mostly)
> to H-Con from all over the USA. Anyone from HMGS have any stats as to exact
> numbers? If so, that many East gamers would have to attend to keep things
> "equal" in tthose that support East's cons. (Which I doubt that many would come
> to support a con outside their HMGS-East region.)
>
> Las Vegas is quite a successful venue for "other" cons. Perhaps not as good for
> a Historical con, I admit!
>
> best,
> Tom Dye
> GFI
> GFI/Minifigs: www.minifigs.com (303)361-6465
> Attactix:Bill@attactix.com (303)699-3349
>
> Makers of Minifigs to the Americas!
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.miniatures.historical (More info?)

>Not to mention that
>the place is about as devoid of any history( or at least any that the
>local Chamber of Commerce would want to talk about) as any place in
>the US.

I always make a point of revisiting the Hoover Dam (a whole subset of history
in its own right) when I go to Vegas. And, the Grand Canyon really is both
(grand and a canyon).
 
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