Info When do you really need to use DDU?

[hotaru.hino]

DDU is often used as the solution to try when sorting out possible driver issues. At the same time, I've seen it suggested that it should be used whenever you make a hardware change, regardless of which path you go to. A common reason I heard is that the OS can get confused as to which driver to use. Although I haven't seen it, I have a feeling that people also think that because when you get a driver package from AMD or NVIDIA, they make you choose a specific model of graphics cards, and thus what you get only works with what you selected.

So I wanted to tackle a scenario since I was able to do this recently: Do you need to use DDU when upgrading from one NVIDIA card to another? The tl;dr is no, you don't.

Spoiler: Background: how does Windows handle drivers?

Every piece of hardware that connects to the computer has a couple of hardware IDs. For expansion cards (which still use the convention set by PCI), the hardware reports a vendor ID and a device ID. For example, NVIDIA's vendor ID is 10DE, while the device ID for the RTX 3080 is (10DE)1467.

So taking this into account, Windows can use these hardware IDs to map to which driver to use. But how does Windows know which driver to use? When you install drivers, there's several components that make up what's called a driver package. The contents of the driver package can be found at Microsoft's documentation for Components of Driver Package. But one of the main files, the INF file, contains something important: which hardware ID the driver is compatible with.

As an example, this is found in the nv_dispig.inf file in NVIDIA's display driver package:

So basically, there's no real way for Windows to load the "incorrect" driver for the hardware in the system unless the drivers have been configured incorrectly or the device is reporting the wrong IDs.

Also note that driver packages can be compatible with multiple hardware. The screen cap above shows that this driver is compatible with the GTX 3050. In fact, this list went all the way back to the GeForce 750 Ti. And in fact, if you can check which cards are supported by a driver package on NVIDIA's website:

Also yes, this implies that, at least for the particular driver the INF file is for, it's compatible with the professional cards like the RTX A2000.

Spoiler: Test Setup

So for the specs of this test

• CPU: AMD Ryzen 5600X
• Motherboard: ASRock B550 Steel Legend, BIOS version 2.40
• RAM: DDR4-3200
• Video cards: NVIDIA GeForce RTX 2070 Super and RTX 4070 Ti
• OS: Windows 11
• Driver version: Gamer Ready 528.02

Benchmarks:

• 3DMark Speed Way
• 3DMark Time Spy
• Borderlands 3 (DX 12, Max settings, 1440p)
• Call of Duty: Modern Warfare II (Max settings, 1440p)
• Crysis Remastered (Very High, 1080p)
• Cyberpunk 2077 (RT Ultra, DLSS Auto, 1440p)
• Final Fantasy XIV: Endwalker (High Desktop, 1440p)
• Forza Horizon 5 (Ultra, 1440p)
• Metro Exodus: Enhanced Edition (Extreme, 1440p)
• Quake 2 RTX (1440p, timedemo 1)
• Red Dead Redemption 2 (Vulkan, Max settings, 1440p)

Steps:

• With the RTX 2070 Super installed, update the drivers to 528.02
• Run all the benchmarks/tests
• Replace the RTX 2070 Super with the RTX 4070 Ti
• Run all the benchmarks/tests again
• Reinstall the drivers by doing the following
  • Unplug the computer from the internet
  • Uninstall all the drivers from Control Panel, restarting when required
  • Run DDU in safe mode to clean up the drivers (note that unless I missed something, it doesn't report it found something, just that it did something)
  • Reinstall the drivers
  • Reconnect the computer to the internet
• Run all the benchmarks/tests again

Spoiler: Results

Values are average FPS, unless stated otherwise.

Benchmark	RTX 2070 Super	RTX 4070 Ti	RTX 4070 Ti (DDU)	% relative 4070 Ti vs 2070S	%Relative DDU vs No DDU
3DMark Speed Way (Graphics Score)	2047.33​	5447.00​	5438.00​	266.05​	99.83​
3DMark Time Spy (Total Score)	9948.00​	18203.00​	18211.67​	182.98​	100.05​
Borderlands 3	55.21​	135.92​	138.67​	246.21​	102.02​
Call of Duty Modern Warfare II	74.33​	176.00​	175.67​	236.77​	99.81​
Crysis Remastered	91.02​	126.53​	129.61​	139.02​	102.43​
Cyberpunk 2077	42.37​	93.34​	93.45​	220.27​	100.12​
Final Fantasy Endwalker (Score)	18790.67​	26399.33​	26271.33​	140.49​	99.52​
Forza Horizon 5	74.33​	161.90​	161.57​	217.80​	99.79​
Metro Exodus Enhanced Edition	36.32​	95.54​	95.41​	263.03​	99.87​
Quake 2 RTX	35.82​	110.12​	112.23​	307.46​	101.91​
Red Dead Redemption 2	53.92​	118.22​	118.33​	219.23​	100.10​

So basically, there's no change between swapping hardware with compatible drivers and doing a DDU to clean, then install the compatible drivers.

Spoiler: So when should DDU be used?

You may have noticed that in the steps to reinstall the drivers, I disconnect the internet from the computer. Why? To prevent Windows from trying to get a compatible driver of a different version (unlikely, given how new the card is). However, not doing this did lead to an issue I had when testing with a setup that involved the RTX 2070 Super with a GT 1030 and testing to see if the same driver package worked for both. When I installed the GT 1030, Windows installed an outdated driver for it before I could get the one I wanted installed. This resulted mostly in issues trying to get a dual monitor setup between the RTX 2070 Super and GT 1030. In this case, DDU did solve my problem, but I had to remember to disconnect the computer from the internet while this happened.

As far as other scenarios go that I see DDU should used...

• If you update drivers for the same hardware
  No. Absolutely not. You don't even need to uninstall the old drivers first. Just run the installer. It'll uninstall the previous drivers and install the new ones.
  
  
• If you are updating to hardware that's compatible with the driver
  As this test showed, no you don't.
  
  
• If you are updating to hardware that's not compatible with the current driver
  Update first, assuming the outgoing hardware is compatible. If the outgoing hardware is not compatible with a driver that's compatible with the incoming hardware, download the compatible drivers, disconnect the computer from the internet, uninstall the drivers, replace the hardware, then install the new drivers.
  
  
• If you are switching from AMD to NVIDIA or vice versa
  Given how drivers work in Windows and how the driver system is supposed to work, if you plug in a card from a different company, Windows isn't going to load the driver that was already there. Again, the card reports its hardware IDs and the driver states which hardware IDs it's compatible for. Windows isn't going to go "Oh, I see hardware ID 1000, but I have a driver that only works with hardware ID 2000, I guess I'll just use it." So I don't have any reason to believe having the drivers for another video card vendor still in the system causes issues.
  
  Multi vendor GPU setups have also been a thing technically since Windows 95 when you needed a 2D accelerator on top of a 3D accelerator. And even then in modern times, you have laptops that use Intel's iGPU for the display, but an AMD or NVIDIA GPU to handle games.
  
  If I ever get an AMD card, I might revisit this.

So I basically make it a point if I'm going to completely remove the drivers for my video card, I download the drivers I want first, disconnect the computer from the internet, then do all the uninstalling/reinstalling so that I can do this without Windows inadvertently downloading a driver that I didn't want and the OS registering two different versions of the driver to use.

However, if you want to continue suggesting that someone DDU the drivers anyway, I'm not going to stop you. This is just a post sharing what I've researched, what I've tested, and what I've concluded.

 

[Deleted member 14196]

I’ve had situation where I’ve had to use it, so what you’re saying is not always true 100% of the time

from your tiny sample sizes, you can’t conclude anything that you know 100% of everything. That’s not even possible so don’t claim it.

as it sits, your information is completely useless, because you have no way of testing most all of the hardware and going from one to the other. And there’s no way you could test it because there’s too many combinations and permutations.

The fact remains that there are cases where you will need to use it

This thread is misleading and not informative based on your tiny little sample sizes and tests.

this thread will only cause confusion with other people, and I don’t see it being very useful

it is true that you don’t need to use it every single time but if you do install new drivers and it’s screws you then this is your way out

 

[Tac 25]

not saying this is the right thing to do, it's simply what works for me.
If it's AMD to NVidia or Nvidia to AMD, I always use DDU. It feels too risky not to.

for example, on one of my old pc. When upgrading from HD540 (AMD) to GT 1030 (Nvidia). Used the driver uninstaller from AMD website, then followed it up with DDU. To be sure it's all gone. Installed drivers for the GT 1030 after doing those. Fast forward a year or two.. upgrading the GT 1030 (Nvidia) to GTX 1650 (Nvidia), I did not use DDU anymore - installed a new nvidia driver over the old one, and the 1650 worked without problems.

these days, Nvidia has monopolized all my pc's (lol), so I just overwrite the existing Nvidia driver when installing new gpu. 1030 (Nvidia) to 1050ti (Nvidia) - installed new driver on top of the old one, no problems. 1030 (Nvidia) to 3050 (Nvidia) - same thing, installed new nvidia driver on top of the old, no problem encountered. I place a 1030 on a newly arrived pc as a placeholder, until a stronger gpu is acquired.

 

[AbeDub]

I’ve had situation where I’ve had to use it, so what you’re saying is not always true 100% of the time

from your tiny sample sizes, you can’t conclude anything that you know 100% of everything. That’s not even possible so don’t claim it.

as it sits, your information is completely useless, because you have no way of testing most all of the hardware and going from one to the other. And there’s no way you could test it because there’s too many combinations and permutations.

The fact remains that there are cases where you will need to use it

This thread is misleading and not informative based on your tiny little sample sizes and tests.

this thread will only cause confusion with other people, and I don’t see it being very useful

it is true that you don’t need to use it every single time but if you do install new drivers and it’s screws you then this is your way out

You missed the entire point of the OP's post. At no point did they claim 100% truth. At all. In fact you contradict yourself in your final sentence by saying exactly what the OP has also suggested.

All they have stated is that DDU is not the solution to all scenarios, driver wise. It's become the urban legend that DDU is the definitive go to when it's not necessary in all cases. I even fell for it.

 

[Deleted member 14196]

not saying this is the right thing to do, it's simply what works for me.
If it's AMD to NVidia or Nvidia to AMD, I always use DDU. It feels too risky not to.

for example, on one of my old pc. When upgrading from HD540 (AMD) to GT 1030 (Nvidia). Used the driver uninstaller from AMD website, then followed it up with DDU. To be sure it's all gone. Installed drivers for the GT 1030 after doing those. Fast forward a year or two.. upgrading the GT 1030 (Nvidia) to GTX 1650 (Nvidia), I did not use DDU anymore - installed a new nvidia driver over the old one, and the 1650 worked without problems.

these days, Nvidia has monopolized all my pc's (lol), so I just overwrite the existing Nvidia driver when installing new gpu. 1030 (Nvidia) to 1050ti (Nvidia) - installed new driver on top of the old one, no problems. 1030 (Nvidia) to 3050 (Nvidia) - same thing, installed new nvidia driver on top of the old, no problem encountered. I place a 1030 on a newly arrived pc as a placeholder, until a stronger gpu is acquired.

On win 7 I went from amd to nvidia. It didn’t go well. Had to use ddu in safe mode to remove and. Shutdown, install new card and reboot. That fixed it. Otherwise it would not boot. That could have just been my particular set of hardware and software configuration though. Sometimes it’s needed. Not all the time as stated above.

some people never need it. Depends on lots of things

win 10 on up might never need it. I don’t know

 

[AbeDub]

On win 7 I went from amd to nvidia. It didn’t go well. Had to use ddu in safe mode to remove and. Shutdown, install new card and reboot. That fixed it. Otherwise it would not boot. That could have just been my particular set of hardware and software configuration though. Sometimes it’s needed. Not all the time as stated above.

some people never need it. Depends on lots of things

win 10 on up might never need it. I don’t know

They still didn't say 'all the time' though, fella. Your evidence is your own anecdotes which aren't sufficient either. The OP even says he isn't telling people not to use it.

 

[hotaru.hino]

I’ve had situation where I’ve had to use it, so what you’re saying is not always true 100% of the time

from your tiny sample sizes, you can’t conclude anything that you know 100% of everything. That’s not even possible so don’t claim it.

as it sits, your information is completely useless, because you have no way of testing most all of the hardware and going from one to the other. And there’s no way you could test it because there’s too many combinations and permutations.

The fact remains that there are cases where you will need to use it

This thread is misleading and not informative based on your tiny little sample sizes and tests.

this thread will only cause confusion with other people, and I don’t see it being very useful

it is true that you don’t need to use it every single time but if you do install new drivers and it’s screws you then this is your way out

I never claimed that DDU was completely unnecessary. And I feel like you missed the bit where I did have an issue that DDU solved.

However, not doing this [disconnecting the internet from the computer] did lead to an issue I had when testing with a setup that involved the RTX 2070 Super with a GT 1030 and testing to see if the same driver package worked for both. When I installed the GT 1030, Windows installed an outdated driver for it before I could get the one I wanted installed. This resulted mostly in issues trying to get a dual monitor setup between the RTX 2070 Super and GT 1030. In this case, DDU did solve my problem

What I didn't add to this was I looked into if there was something fishy about the driver store. What I found was there were two versions of a compatible driver (presumably for the GT 1030, I forget the exact details). This I could see causing problems if Windows doesn't load all the drivers the video card needed from the same driver package. Considering that driver stores are deep within the system folder and I have no experience mucking around with it, I used DDU to clean up the driver store.

Perhaps my wording implied that DDU should never be used in those scenarios, but what I meant is that DDU shouldn't be the first thing to go to when messing with drivers in those scenarios. Especially when on the one of the more popular pages to download DDU from, says this:

Although the last bit of "unless you know what you are doing" seems to open the floodgates for people who only think they know what they're doing.

The problem I have is, from my point of view, the oversuggestion of DDU. For instance, someone says "I have a problem running X game, but every other game runs fine" and someone goes "Run DDU on the drivers and reinstall them." How do you know that these things aren't a problem:

• The game itself has issues?
• There was something that the person did that didn't agree with the game?
• Are they an outdated driver?

The DDU solution to me is the sledge hammer and percussive maintenance is all you know. Or basically the equivalent of "I have a problem with Windows" ... "Reinstall Windows, that should fix it". To me, DDU is the last resort to a driver related problem. Also as someone who had to troubleshoot systems that were safety critical, it's not enough for me to know what works, it's important for me to know why it works. Sure resetting the computer works whenever the software runs into an issue, but if I don't know why, then I can't fix the actual problem and I'll just get this problem again or characterize it to see if something less sledgehammery else works, which would be better for getting back to normal operation.

In any case, across 5 or so computers I built in the last 10 or so years, the only time I know I've had a need to use DDU was in the scenario I encountered.

Also at the end I said I don't care if you or anyone continues to suggest using DDU up front. You can suggest any solution to the problem that you want.

 

[RodroX]

I have never used DDU on my personal rig. I do try to keep my rig in good shape.
But when someone is facing issues after a GPU upgrade (doesn't matter if its going from amd to nvidia, nvidia to nvidia, igpu to whatever, amd to amd, etc), then is not a bad idea to suggest to try DDU, specially if theres nothing else we can assume to be the root of the issues.

Should you use it every time. No you shouldn't.

Same as with BIOS update. Whats the point in updating if everything is working fine? (unless of course theres some high security patch that you think is important to get).

As to keep the same driver because is compatible when going from hardware "X" to hardware "Y". Even though I know it should work fine (Windows 10 and 11), I rather uninstall, power down the system, remove old hardware, install new hardware, turn on the system, check everything is ok, install driver. Old habits lol. Then again if you are in a rush or doing some testing, yes just take out X and put in Y and be done with it.

 

[Karadjgne]

Nvidia (or Amd) drivers are 2 things. There's the base drivers that are the same for all the cards and the extras, which include all the game optimizations for specific cards. And then there's Windows.

So can you run a gtx970 and an rtx2060 or rtx4090 on the same driver set? Absolutely. If the drivers include the usage of rtx cores, which the original set of drivers for the gtx970 did not. But they are backwards compatible to a certain extent.

The problems mostly occur with the game optimizations, and older drivers. Express installation looks for the version number of the files, if it exists, it skips reinstalling that and moves on. What happens then is you get multiple files, with registry links, that didn't get updated or fixed if corrupted and they have requirements too. Which can lead to conflicts, especially since Windows prefers to use its drivers in priority vs older nvidia drivers.

It's like running an old game that requires DX9c, but because Windows is DX12 native, it's using a newer version of DX3d that's not compatible with DX9c.

So if swapping cards, it's better to reinstall, Clean. Not Express. For that, it's often better to remove any temptation and use DDU to wipe out all the old drivers and registry links and addresses, and start over, clean, without a bunch of orphans and/or dead end links.

DDU is proactive maintenance, doesn't make it a necessity in similar card use, may do realistically nothing for the installation or drivers, but having used it validates any assumption of having a clean slate and no conflicts. Not much different than reinstalling Windows after a motherboard swap.

 

[Exploding PSU]

I'm probably missing the point entirely and I'd cringe at this reply this next morning, but for me using DDU when doing anything GPU-driver related is like warming up my car. Sure, I don't really need to do it, can always go without doing it, but for the sake of completeness.... why not? It's not like it's going to hurt anything, and it only takes a few miutes at most

 

[Darkbreeze]

I'm probably missing the point entirely and I'd cringe at this reply this next morning, but for me using DDU when doing anything GPU-driver related is like warming up my car. Sure, I don't really need to do it, can always go without doing it, but for the sake of completeness.... why not? It's not like it's going to hurt anything, and it only takes a few miutes at most

And this, is really the only reply here that matters at all. The fact is, OFTEN there are problems that can't be resolved any other way and if there is EVER going to be a potential for issues, then why WOULDN'T you just do that and avoid it?

I'm not saying you should do it every time you update drivers, but honestly, EVERY TIME you update drivers and then encounter ANY kind of problem, it's ridiculous to not go directly to using DDU before wasting time searching out other solutions when clearly time after time it's been SHOWN to resolve so many different kinds of problems related to the display adapter or graphics card related issues.

It's NEVER going to "hurt" anything and it stands a good chance of fixing a lot of problems, so there is really no reason to "avoid" it or even have a conversation on it's merits.

 

[CountMike]

First and foremost when changing graphic cards specially when switching AMD > Nvidia > IGPU or different generations from same. Old drivers may not be active but stay on disk and make a mess. It's not only drivers but also their influence on DirectX and other APIs which can be confusing to programs/games using them.
Newest drivers have now pretty good routines for a cleanup when doing clean install nut as I noticed leave some remnants "Just in case you change your mind"-
DDU is just best dedicated GPU and now Sound too driver uninstaller/cleaner, other general uninstaller programs like Revo also do good job.
Even after seemingly clean un-installation some Windows settings and remnants can be seen in DriverStoreExplorer for instance and eliminated.
Manually cleaning Driver store from windows can be risky as it may also delete some files/drivers built into windows just to be able to have at lest minimal use of an unknown GPU.