Where's the bottleneck?

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At this rate wee_ag1 can build a new system and eBay the old one. :)

Seriously though, a 2.6GHz P4 isn't bad, but the SDRAM is surely choking it. He could probably just replace the mobo and RAM for a lot less money, and maybe use some of that money for a new hard drive.

Though replacing the CPU does have its advantages too.

Of course then there's the question of if the new mobo should have an AGP or a PCI-e graphics slot. Replacing the graphics card would be yet more of a cost, but keeping to AGP will suck if the graphics card is going to be replaced eventually.
 
When you load the thumbnail are they being read from the hard drive or a memory card? If it is from the memory card they can sometimes be painfully slow.
 
When you load the thumbnail are they being read from the hard drive or a memory card? If it is from the memory card they can sometimes be painfully slow.
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It is loading from the HD (see earlier post)

Possible explanations:-

1)
Windows XP can save its own thumbnail data in the directory (hidden file Thumbs.db).

Explorer window ->Tools menu -> Folder Options -> 'View' tab
unselect 'Do not cache thumbnails'
Click to expand...
This has already been done.

2)
Defrag hard drive. Better with a defragger that will arrange folders by name then files by name because that's typically the order you and windows will try to read them. eg. O&O.
Click to expand...
I've defragged before but how do you do it to arrange folders? There's no options like that I've seen with the Windows defragger.

3)
faster hard disk because it may be reading 100 times 4MB (400MB) with 8MB of thumbnails (especially the first time). That can be a lot of random reads depending on file structure (fragmentations, read order). It's probably 10% CPU/RAM and 90% disk IO limited at the moment. Windows may also be reading/writing metadata (eg. last access time, security info).
Old HD may be ATA33 or limited by other device connected to channel (eg. old optical drive is PIO ie. 16MB/s, no DMA). DMA allows the CPU to process JPEG's etc. while waiting for next IO. Newer HD's can read more in a single spin, more data per second sequentially, cache more from current track for future use(I assume), cache more writes before interrupting read (I assume), more random seeks per second (7200 vs 5400rpm drives, 10Krpm even better).

4)
MB limitations. south bridge (ICH2) connected to northbridge (MCH) using 266MB/s link. Uses 1.06GB/s max data rate system RAM, typical 600-800MB/s bandwidth. 3.2GB/s link to CPU (from MCH) under utilised. I doubt that the MS explorer and picture viewer are threaded enough to make use of HyperThreading. USB is v1.1 ie ~1MB/s so ext. HD is worse for this and USB2.0 isn't ideal either. Move newer ATA HD purchased above to new system when you have the money. A 250GB 7200rpm drive with 32GB of data will be faster (eg. upto double) than a 40GB drive of the same HD family filled with the same 32GB of data.
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These last two seem to be the consensus as to the problem but the mobo can't handle anything better.

since a new mobo wont fit in the case have you thought of adding anoter $50 ish to the total and going for a new case with PS (i know the included powersupplys arnt great but im sure it will manage) as well to give you something to work from as you get around to fully upgrading the system :)
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That's a lot more hassel than I want to go through unless I have to.

Aren't there any micro-atx solutions?
 
The Asus K8V-MX is a micro ATX board I used and have good performance coupled wth a Sempron 3100+. it has onboard video, but also has an AGP slot. With it, only 1 dimm can be used as the memory controller is single channel. FasterSempron are available too. Or you can find some A64 socket 754 too.

There is some other motherboard that may support your CPU and use DDR memory. Since I don't built lot of Intel system, I don't have good knowledge about them.
 
The Asus K8V-MX is a micro ATX board I used and have good performance coupled wth a Sempron 3100+. it has onboard video, but also has an AGP slot. With it, only 1 dimm can be used as the memory controller is single channel. FasterSempron are available too. Or you can find some A64 socket 754 too.

There is some other motherboard that may support your CPU and use DDR memory. Since I don't built lot of Intel system, I don't have good knowledge about them.
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Ok, thanks for the help... Anyone else?
 
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and disagree with almost everything everyone has said...

My system is a 900mhz Duron with 640mb CL 3.0 PC100 memory

my thumbnails are not cached...

both my drives are 7200rpm - Old ones though not much cache on them at all

my thumbnails snap into place - and dont explain all of this away by saying i have a faster HD - btw all my images show the thumbs very fast - from 5mb - 30mb files...

i would bet some performance enhancing steps would solve all your problems
turn off all the animations - set the page file instead of letting windows manage it - disable uneeded services... uninstall any crappy software (this definition of crappy is mine and mine alone by the way) by this i mean Yahoo and google toolbars, hotbar - goofy stuff like this... - stop pretty much everything from loading at startup ...

there are tons of websites dedicated to these sort of enhancements, if you haven't done any of this already and dont know where to start just ask

you folks all see that this person doesnt have a completely new system and have him(or her) practically buying a new computer and saying its the absolute best thing to do, i am ashamed of all of you 😛

this isnt to say that a newer system wont help (there's a big Duh) but its not the only option

anyone bother to ask how many processes are running - what Anti Virus package is running? is there spyware software running - newer privacy and AV software can slow a slightly older system dramatically. There are other options that dont use so much system resources.
 
I agree with the previous post.

I would check whether the Primary IDE channel is operating under Ultra DMA or PIO.

If its PIO, that'll be the reason for an extremely slow system...

See my previous post on how to resolve it if it is....
 
I'm gonna have to go with IR as well. I'm running a 1.3ghz p4 and 512mb of rdram...and all my pic's snap in to place too. Takes about 3 sec for 30 3.0mp pictures. Scrolling down through the ones i can't see is instantanious. I even have outlook, antivirus, a ping program, and F@H running at the same time...

I recently defragged my 40gb 7200 2mb hd...i have most of my settings set to low visual detail, but it's a non-issue as my graphics card is an old gf2 series here at work, and on or off it runs the same (i just haven't changed it back...).

My rdram should be just a little faster then his sdram, and my cpu only able to do half as much work. All told, he has the better system. However...If he's running both hd's on the same cable, i believe it defaults to the slowest ATA...so if its a 5400, it's probably older, perhaps 33/66, slowing everything down... Run a PCMark 05 and tell us what the boot time is on the hd as well as the mb/s on boot (if you can, i can't remember if it lets you see both in the free version...). [edit: keep in mind you can choose which hd you want pcmark to use...]
 
Sorry, but I've benchmarked a NorthwoodC being throttled by as much as single-channel DDR200, and it was downright scary how badly it killed performance. While we're probably talking about a NorthwoodB here, meaning that it needs less bandwidth, we're also talking about SDRAM, not even DDR. So it's quite possible that this poor processor is running at, oh, about the performance of a 400MHz Celeron because the memory system is bottlenecking the processor so badly.

Now, likely, there are plenty of other reasons for the bad performance too. But I feel so badly for that processor that I can't not reccomend a new mobo and dual-channel DDR for it. And certainly a used 865-based mobo and two 512MB sticks of generic CAS3 DDR333 aren't all that costly.
 
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and disagree with almost everything everyone has said...

My system is a 900mhz Duron with 640mb CL 3.0 PC100 memory

my thumbnails are not cached...

both my drives are 7200rpm - Old ones though not much cache on them at all

my thumbnails snap into place - and dont explain all of this away by saying i have a faster HD - btw all my images show the thumbs very fast - from 5mb - 30mb files...

i would bet some performance enhancing steps would solve all your problems
turn off all the animations - set the page file instead of letting windows manage it - disable uneeded services... uninstall any crappy software (this definition of crappy is mine and mine alone by the way) by this i mean Yahoo and google toolbars, hotbar - goofy stuff like this... - stop pretty much everything from loading at startup ...

there are tons of websites dedicated to these sort of enhancements, if you haven't done any of this already and dont know where to start just ask

you folks all see that this person doesnt have a completely new system and have him(or her) practically buying a new computer and saying its the absolute best thing to do, i am ashamed of all of you 😛

this isnt to say that a newer system wont help (there's a big Duh) but its not the only option

anyone bother to ask how many processes are running - what Anti Virus package is running? is there spyware software running - newer privacy and AV software can slow a slightly older system dramatically. There are other options that dont use so much system resources.
Click to expand...

I've tried all this, same performance...

I agree with the previous post.

I would check whether the Primary IDE channel is operating under Ultra DMA or PIO.

If its PIO, that'll be the reason for an extremely slow system...

See my previous post on how to resolve it if it is....
Click to expand...

It supports ATA 100/66, Ultra ATA 33, and PIO (is this what you needed?)

... Run a PCMark 05 and tell us what the boot time is on the hd as well as the mb/s on boot (if you can, i can't remember if it lets you see both in the free version...). [edit: keep in mind you can choose which hd you want pcmark to use...]
Click to expand...

I'm downloading it now and will post the resuts when it runs.
 
Rambooster might do some help...

http://www.sci.fi/~borg/rambooster/index.htm
Click to expand...

What does it do? The page is kinda non-descript - unless I missed something. It also seems to run in the background, won't another process just slow things down more?
 
about 1,976~2,332k memory usage

http://www.sci.fi/~borg/rambooster/index.htm
click the DOWNLOAD HERE. at the yellow banner?
Try it.. It's free
download the v1.6 first
then the v2.0
RamBooster frees up Ram. This is done by forcing Windows to remove all the data that is not currently needed from the memory. :)
Click to expand...

Ok, I gave it a whirl... I watched the CPU and RAM usage on the program while trying to look at the thumbnails and the CPU jumped to 100% and the RAM usage stayed at about 50%. It still took just as long for them to appear. I set the auto-optimization settings as per the help file and it isn't doing anything because the RAM is being 100% used to shoe the thumbnails.


One more interesting thing I forgot to mention about the whole thumbnail thing is that when the thumbnails finally appear they are miniature images within the thumbnail frame. Example, there will be 30 boxes for thumbnails on the screen but they thumbnail it shows is about 1/4 the size of the thumbnail frame. I hit F5 to refresh the images and they show at their proper size. Also, scrolling down to view more thumbs is just as slow as opening a new folder of thumbs and the same size issue happens.

I'm getting to the point of frustration as this computer is needed for a photog and graphic design business I'm starting. I may just suck it up and get a new system if this can't be resolved soon.

Thanks for all of your continual help!
 
The bottleneck is probably your hard drive. A good example is what you stated: it takes forever for thumbnails to display.

Those 20GB/30GB drives are old and probably spin at 5400 rpm on an ATA 66 or 100 bus and have 2MB caches.

New systems have at least 7200rpm drives, large 8 or 16MB caches, and SATA150. You could theoretically speed things up with a new fast hard drive. Anything above 7200rpm w/ a 8mb cache will do.

-mpjesse
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I agree with this completely. Why is it then that we are thinking of replacing everything but the hard drives? New MB? New RAM? New CPU? Phooy!! Lakedude says get a new hard drive. I've got 3 RAPTOR 10,000 rpm drives for a reason. The rest of the system isn't that bad. Yes the rest of the stuff could be better but the hard drives are your biggest issue.

People are RAM happy. Preformance is about balance. If you slap 2 old slow hard drives in a new system they are still gonna be slow. When upgrading you want to fix the bottlenecks first. You already know this is true because you post is titled "Where's the bottleneck?". The bottleneck in your case is the hard drives (IMO).

OTOH if you are looking for an excuse to buy a new system........
 
...The bottleneck in your case is the hard drives (IMO).

OTOH if you are looking for an excuse to buy a new system........
Click to expand...

Great! Let's explore that option... The specs for the mobo and the current HD's are listed above... The mobo supports ATA 100/66, Ultra ATA 33, and PIO - Anything out there better than what I got that can go on this system?

Someone asked earlier and the current primary IDE Channel is transfering in Ultra DMA Mode 5
 
Yes 100/66 is perfect for your needs. Your "data" drive with the pics on it is your biggest bottleneck at 5400 rpm. As Mpjes-dude said any 7200rpm drive with at least 8 meg should be fine.

Searching for options.........

BTW do not get an el-cheapo Western Digital drive with a one year warranty!!!!

WD is fine but their cheap line is junk.
 
WD 80 GB, 3 year, $53 + shipping

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822144122


WD 160 GB, 3 year, $79 + shipping

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822144203

Seagate 160 GB, 5 year, $81.50 + shipping

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822148025

Seagate 200 GB, 5 year, 95.50 + shipping

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16822148032

Anything similar to these should be fine, depending on how much storage you need and how much you want to spend. Even larger drives are not much more money. Look for yourself, just stay away from drives with a 1 year.
 
Based on all that's been discussed so far, here are my suggestions:

ASUS P4P800-VM microATX motherboard (Socket 478, DDR)
2x 512MB DDR400 CL2.5 (eg. Kingston KVR400X64C25/512)
Western Digital Caviar SE 120GB 7200RPM 8MB IDE (WD1200JB)
Maxtor MaxLine III 250GB 7200RPM 16MB SATA (7L250S0)

Now, I don't know if this fits within your $200-300 budget (not knowing where you are from), however combining this with your existing hardware (less the old hard drives) and a fresh install onto the 120GB as a system drive and using the 250GB for ALL data should result in a decent performance boost. If the Maxtor drive puts you over the budget, it could be purchased later and just use the 120GB to start out on.

Configuration:
WD 120GB HDD on Primary IDE (Master) using 80-conductor ATA-133 cable
Optical Drive(s) on Secondary IDE (Master, Slave(if 2 drives))
Maxtor 250GB HDD on SATA0
 
:cry: Soory I thought that would helped a lil bit, I agree with them you better change that 5400RPM with 7200RPM HDD SATA, then buy SATA controller, and more ram. might help. :)
 
Cool! You guys are great.

I'm in the US if that helps with the pricing thing (sorry I didn't mention that) I think I'll go with the new HD right now and see how that helps since it can be transferred to a new mobo if it comes to that.

Would I get another bottleneck getting an SATA controller and HD since it is not native to the system? I image the next system would be SATA so it seems that would be the wiser choice so I could transfer to the new system.

Thanks again!

Oh, and Bulkypc07 - no worries about the program, I'm willing to try anything - especially if it is free!
 
Just a little test.
Copy your files from the 5400rpm drive to your 7500rpm drive.
Then disconnect the 5400 drive. You may find the whole thing loads faster.
The problem with IDE drives on the same channel is that they will transfer data the the speed of the slowest drive.
Also try reorganizing you photos into different folders so you're not displaying so many thumbnails at once (free performance improvment).
Also are your drives formated FAT or ntfs, ntfs is much faster for large number of files in any one directory
 
You can go SATA on your next system. There is no reason to go SATA unless you find a drive that you really like and that drive happens to be SATA. The mechanical speed of the drive is the bottleneck in systems that have only a drive or two. Faster bus speeds are only required when you have enough drives working at the same time to stress the bus. Servers use SCSI because they need the bus bandwidth because they are running many hard drives. Home systems generally do not need anything better than the ATA 100 you already have.


The Raptor is one of the fastest drives you can buy at a reasonable price. The Raptor has a 150 SATA interface but even at 10,000 rpm it can only muster "Buffer To Disk 72 MB/s (Sustained)". 72MB/s does not stress the SATA interface and would not stress an ATA 100 interface.
 
Is that P4 support HT?
1GB of ram might help.
In HDD using 10k RPM Raptor 8) will help but way too expensive
You mentioned for (photoshop, illustrator, indesign, dreamweave)
get 10k RPM Raptor with 150GB (around $290) ouch!!!..
but if you want more and larger space pick SATA with bigger 250GB or more (Seagate,WD and others)..

:idea: 1GB of right ram will improved multi-tasking, and will run smoother
and the (7200RPM or 10K) drive will boost loading....
 
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