Question Which is more likely to corrupt the OS, a force shutdown or BSOD?

[ShangWang]

Now that I have a new SSD I don't think I'll be getting any BSOD anytime soon, but I'd like to know how it could corrupt the OS.

Here are my two described scenarios for either a possible BSOD or force shutdown in my previous experiences with a HDD:

BSOD
- A game that is too graphically intensive giving me an orange screen of death. I'm not overclocking here, the game was apparently too intense for my graphics card, it was Ori and the blind forest. Apparently GTA is fine though. Will this damage my GPU or corrupt the OS?

- I run into under volting my CPU way too much and get a BSOD from lack of power, will this corrupt the OS or damage the CPU?

- Any other possible reason that can cause BSOD, will this generally corrupt the OS or any files if I wasn't saving, or writing anything? What if I was just downloading windows updates? (Not updating, downloading from the update tab)

Force shutdown
- Alt tabbing a game causes it to freeze my whole screen, I can't ctrl + alt + delete or do anything at all. I am forced to shutdown. The game wasn't saving or anything at this time. Can a force shutdown corrupt the OS or any of my game files if no saving was happening?

If I wanted to do a force shutdown, how would I safely do so other than holding the power button?

Would a BSOD or force shutdown more likely cause the OS to corrupt, and why?

 

[Colif]

most of the time errors caused by drivers. Games don't have any drivers, they use what PC supplies. So if its crashing and mentioning Nvidia drivers, you can simply try updating them instead of ddu but ddu makes sure no old files left. You can do a custom install in Geforce experience and force it to do a clean install too.

 

[ShangWang]

most of the time errors caused by drivers. Games don't have any drivers, they use what PC supplies. So if its crashing and mentioning Nvidia drivers, you can simply try updating them instead of ddu but ddu makes sure no old files left. You can do a custom install in Geforce experience and force it to do a clean install too.

Thanks, I think I'll use Nvidias custom clean install it should work fine. Do you also know if BSOD can possibly corrupt drivers as well?

Edit: Doing a clean install and reinstalling MSI afterburner seemed to have worked, thanks! I didn't do DDU, but some people said the Nvidia clean install is good enough, and so far so good.

I can use the overlay with Cuphead and tabbing in and out works fine.

 

[ShangWang]

Hi, I ran the dump files through the debugger and got the following information: https://jsfiddle.net/7Lu5rst4/show This link is for anyone wanting to help. You do not have to view it. It is safe to "run the fiddle" as the page asks.

Spoiler: Dump File Results

File information:	121221-7453-01.dmp (Dec 12 2021 - 01:18:34)
Bugcheck:	SYSTEM_THREAD_EXCEPTION_NOT_HANDLED_M (1000007E)
Driver warnings:	*** WARNING: Unable to verify timestamp for nvlddmkm.sys
Probably caused by:	memory_corruption (Process: System)
Uptime:	0 Day(s), 2 Hour(s), 34 Min(s), and 35 Sec(s)

File information:	121121-7343-01.dmp (Dec 11 2021 - 21:18:17)
Bugcheck:	DRIVER_POWER_STATE_FAILURE (9F)
Driver warnings:	*** WARNING: Unable to verify timestamp for nvlddmkm.sys
Probably caused by:	memory_corruption (Process: System)
Uptime:	0 Day(s), 9 Hour(s), 26 Min(s), and 56 Sec(s)

Comments:

• 2 or more types of RAM are installed. This is usually OK on laptops.
• The overclocking driver "RTCore64.sys" was found on your system. (MSI Afterburner)
• It looks like NVIDIA crashed both times.

Possible system page: https://www.acer.com/ac/en/US/content/support-product/7571?b=1
You have the latest BIOS already installed, version 1.28.

This information can be used by others to help you.
Hopefully the GPU driver reinstall works, good luck.

Thank you for that info! I already solved the problem by reinstalling with Nvidia clean install.

I have not overclocked or done anything with my GPU, I just undervolted it.

I don't see a problem anymore after reinstalling so I have no idea what RTCore64 might have to do with this since I never overclocked my GPU and am not familiar with it, but please let me know any info about RTCore64 that might have caused this issue.

 

[ShangWang]

gardenmans script always highlights certain files if it finds them

both dumps mention Nvidia drivers. So advice still same.

I see, so I'm going to assume the overclock thing was just a suspect at the crime, not that it actually was the issue.

 

[ShangWang]

Hi again, I was just curious if you know if it's possible to never get corruption if you're careful.

Although BSOD are caused by an issue rather than making an issue, can a BSOD corrupt a graphics driver? What are the most common ways a graphics driver is corrupted, downloading updates or windows updates?

 

[hotaru.hino]

Hi again, I was just curious if you know if it's possible to never get corruption if you're careful.

No, it's impossible to guard against corruption 100% of the time. Assuming you're an average home user, even if you take all the precautions of shutting down properly, etc. the universe really hates us and likes to belch out high energy particles at times. If any of these hit your computer, there's a chance it'll flip a bit.

Although BSOD are caused by an issue rather than making an issue, can a BSOD corrupt a graphics driver? What are the most common ways a graphics driver is corrupted, downloading updates or windows updates?

Yes, but there's a very small chance that it could happen because there are many layers of hoops to go through (or should go through) before a driver gets updated.

• The driver setup is verified for integrity
• The driver gets copied in a driver pool
• The file system makes sure the driver is copied more or less correctly (i.e., it won't commit something was written to it unless it passes various checks)
• The OS's driver configuration gets updated
• Refer to the file system doing its thing again

 

[ShangWang]

No, it's impossible to guard against corruption 100% of the time. Assuming you're an average home user, even if you take all the precautions of shutting down properly, etc. the universe really hates us and likes to belch out high energy particles at times. If any of these hit your computer, there's a chance it'll flip a bit.


Yes, but there's a very small chance that it could happen because there are many layers of hoops to go through (or should go through) before a driver gets updated.

• The driver setup is verified for integrity
• The driver gets copied in a driver pool
• The file system makes sure the driver is copied more or less correctly (i.e., it won't commit something was written to it unless it passes various checks)
• The OS's driver configuration gets updated
• Refer to the file system doing its thing again

Thanks! Usually when a driver is updated, are the old driver files mostly completely replaced without DDU or does it actually just "update" some files and retain some of the old ones?

Do you know what most commonly causes a graphics driver corruption or drivers in general?

 

[hotaru.hino]

Thanks! Usually when a driver is updated, are the old driver files mostly completely replaced without DDU or does it actually just "update" some files and retain some of the old ones?

Drivers in Windows are stored in a pool by version. Sometimes the old version is removed when you update them, sometimes it's not. However, the OS has a configuration file to know which specific version to use.

Do you know what most commonly causes a graphics driver corruption or drivers in general?

The same thing that causes any file on a drive to become corrupted. The chances of it being a driver are the same as any other file, more or less.

 

[ShangWang]

The same thing that causes any file on a drive to become corrupted. The chances of it being a driver are the same as any other file, more or less.

Thank you, and what would those common causes be?

 

[ShangWang]

Anything that affects the electrical properties of the storage media or data while in transit. There's no single common cause and even if there were, you can't completely prevent it.

Thank you, though specifically alt f4 or using any overlay settings with MSI after burner is unlikely to cause issues if I'm just using it regularly?

 

[hotaru.hino]

Thank you, though specifically alt f4 or using any overlay settings with MSI after burner is unlikely to cause issues if I'm just using it regularly?

I mean, we've lasted this long without rampant corruption.

 

[ShangWang]

I mean, we've lasted this long without rampant corruption.

Yeah true, I'm just worried is all. I don't even know how my driver got corrupted, but I'm thinking it was a combination of outdated/improper software updates for both MSI and Nvidia so I was hoping you might know.

 

[ShangWang]

You can't avoid corruption, if its going to happen.

As to why? So many reasons. Every time you think you seen all the reasons something new shows up.
the Nvidia installer keeps a copy of every driver its installed on the PC, I found that yesterday in another answer. Its all in the Nvidia folder.

the 2 biggest reasons I see are bad ram or old drivers. The drivers might have been fine when released but other changes in system have resulted in them not working as well. Its why updating drivers can help.

I see, thanks!

 

[ShangWang]

You can't avoid corruption, if its going to happen.

As to why? So many reasons. Every time you think you seen all the reasons something new shows up.
the Nvidia installer keeps a copy of every driver its installed on the PC, I found that yesterday in another answer. Its all in the Nvidia folder.

the 2 biggest reasons I see are bad ram or old drivers. The drivers might have been fine when released but other changes in system have resulted in them not working as well. Its why updating drivers can help.

Hello again, I was just wondering if you know how big of a page file would be needed for these kind of memory dumps. I'm assuming since you and others were able to read all the information needed for any issues, 4096mb is plenty for automatic memory dumps?

What would be the general range for automatic ones? I'm asking this because I don't want to set my page file to automatic.

Do complete memory dumps actually require a page file to be half the size of your current RAM, or does it actually just use the physical RAM plus a few mb of page file?

 

[Colif]

Why restrict page file size? If you run out of ram at any stage and then if page file is restricted , and windows needs more... you will get out of memory errors. Better to just leave it as as.

You better off with getting more ram than to restrict page file. I have 32gb of ram but my page file is only 4.8gb in size. Windows 10 won't use page file unless it absolutely needs to.

We generally ask for minidumps which are only a few MB at most. But there are the occasional BSOD where Kernel dumps are needed and they are bigger. I don't know the factors that go into how big a dump is apart from its type.

Why don't you want a page file? Only PC that should/could get away without one have more than 8gb of ram.

 

[ShangWang]

Why restrict page file size? If you run out of ram at any stage and then if page file is restricted , and windows needs more... you will get out of memory errors. Better to just leave it as as.

You better off with getting more ram than to restrict page file. I have 32gb of ram but my page file is only 4.8gb in size. Windows 10 won't use page file unless it absolutely needs to.

We generally ask for minidumps which are only a few MB at most. But there are the occasional BSOD where Kernel dumps are needed and they are bigger. I don't know the factors that go into how big a dump is apart from its type.

Why don't you want a page file? Only PC that should/could get away without one have more than 8gb of ram.

Not saying that I don't want a page file, I'm just keeping it a static size because I like it that way. No logical reason.

I have 16GB of RAM, I was just curious as to how big of a page file you actually need for automatic memory dumps.

You mentioned a minidump so I'm assuming 4096mb is only capable of making those to read.

 

[ShangWang]

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/windows-hardware/drivers/debugger/automatic-memory-dump

Microsoft don't give specific sizes for any dumps except Small which are 64kb

https://docs.microsoft.com/en-us/wi.../debugger/varieties-of-kernel-mode-dump-files

I see, my settings are on automatic memory dump but I set a min and max page file of 4096mb.

It doesn't indicate what happens if it's not system managed, if by "small" you mean the mini dump file that I shared with you, I'm going to assume this is fine.

 

[ShangWang]

if you don't get bsod it doesn't matter.
my pf max size is 4.8gb but generally I use... 391mb in a day. and I don't ask why windows wants to use paged pool when its got 18gb free (not in standby, totally free)
using 8gb
modified 500mb
standby 5.3gb
free 18.8gb

Thank you, but I was wondering what kind of crash dump mine is considered. Is it a "minidump" or some other category?

 

[ShangWang]

Guess we blame Microsoft as Small = Mini


If they stuck to one description, you would know.

Thank you, sorry for dragging this on but I just wanted to know if the max size of the dump is reflected on how big the page file can be.
For ex if the dump file was 2GB, is a 2GB page file needed or no?

 

[ShangWang]

As far as I can tell, the only one that needs a specific amount of page file size is a complete memory dump and you can't make windows create that from the same menus you set up the other dump sizes.

https://www.tenforums.com/tutorials/5560-configure-windows-10-create-minidump-bsod.html

everything else needs less as they don't collect as much info. I can't be specific as Microsoft aren't being either.

Thank you!