Why are taxes such an issue?

Page 2 - Seeking answers? Join the Tom's Hardware community: where nearly two million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
Toggle sidebar Toggle sidebar
Status
Not open for further replies.
mutt x said

I love what “jitpublisher” had to say because it’s spot on. It would be an awesome research project to see how much of a $100 product’s price tag is actually the result of taxes.

Take a $100 set of RAM for example. First, you have all the income and entitlement taxes on all the people who handle the product from raw materials, to manufacturing, to assembly, to delivery etc. Then you have “hidden” taxes like taxes on fuel, utilities, licenses, etc. You would also need to factor in property taxes, tariffs, excise taxes etc. It wouldn’t surprise me if 50% of the final cost is actually tax.

there was a study and it comes out to aboute 23 %. This is the basis for the Fair Tax, a consumption tax that is being promoted by some.
http://www.fairtax.org/site/PageServer

Mac
 
Solution: Tax reform
- so that when it comes down to it we pay pretty much the same taxes
- but there should be more transparency on how the money is spent
- and who gets it

What people here seem to be concerned with is that fact that as citizens, we have a contract with our government that claims that if we pay taxes and follow the laws, then the government will ensure a better lifestyle for all its peoples... except that people disagree what that means.

Rich people, who already have nice lifestyles, don't see the logic of paying more into a system that they have already succeeded in. Or, because they are not lacking in the basic necessities of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, they have different goals for the money they contribute. The poverty stricken, on the other hand, have first and foremost in their minds a concern over how they are going to make it through the next week, month, year... etc.

The middle class has another group of overlapping interests.

So the problem that our representatives have is balancing all of those desires so that every group is reasonably happy... enough so that there aren't any revolts.

The other problem with this system is the difficulty associated with getting into public office and shaping the use of this money... pretty much only rich people can do it, and as such, sometimes their goals are put first. OR, they're just bad people who are corrupt and allocate tax money for their own personal goals.

So I don't really have a problem with how many taxes I pay. As a good person I'm thrilled my money is helping to support the 47% of people who are too poor to even pay federal income tax. I'll happily pay more... if they can show me that the money is being used in SOME productive way, but that's a problem that we voters have to express, wherein we expect our representatives to vote for responsible expeditures of the budgets they are given.

More importantly, if you have enough of a problem, then you will take action. If you let it go, you might as well not be bothered about it at all.
 
There is a problem with defining a productive way. Opinions will vary on that, and people will only focus on their own particular problems, not necessarily the reality.

Also...paying pretty much the same taxes is a bad standard because costs of living are not proportional, once you get a certain point it, the basic necessities of life are covered so it becomes luxuries more than essentials. Making people pay basically the same will hurt those at the bottom far more than an inequality with taxes paid at the top.


 
My point was exactly that, that people's different opinions on what productive is explains the anger with our tax/debt/deficit issues. Ideally we could come up with a system to circumvent this, but that's way beyond me.

By same taxes, I meant paying the same we each are now, as individuals. But I also do not condone the loopholes many people slip through...
 
It's not opinions so much as it is perceptions. People don't see the result of not letting others starve to death, or even letting the other people drive a well-maintained highway to work. Instead they just imagine everybody on welfare is a scam artist, or that every road is a bridge to nowhere.

And I don't know what you mean paying the same we each are now. Are you saying keep the current system, minus any abused sections of it?
 
I just mean that we pay what would appear to be the same amount of taxes... but less revenue is lost in bureaucracy. That's for those of us not abusing loopholes... those people that previously took advantage of loopholes would end up paying their fair share (whatever that is, since there's a whole extra discussion about that) and might be a little ticked... but the Law giveth and the Law taketh away.

I agree about perceptions though. It's why Democrats brag about all the help that socialist programs provide and play down the role of business, and Republicans brag about the role of business and play down the effectiveness of social programs. I'm of course generalizing entire parties through their representatives in Congress, but my point is that the easiest way to push either agenda is to change public perception through only partially honest rhetoric.
 


You talk about closing loopholes and cutting waste. I'm all for that but I know it won't be enough to create a surplus, not by a long shot. That's why tax increases are necessary.

P.S. two wars man, that gets expensive...
 
Im going to start this with ALL of you (well not the unemployed basement dwellers) pays me. Since I work for the DOD as a combat enigneer. I have a perspective on this that it seems is so over looked. I was making 70K a year in a state that had an average take home of 30-35K. I owned a bussness and lost track of what I paid in tax. Tax on everything, even a local tax on inventory that I had not sold yet, tax on equpiment I owned and already paid tax on, a tax simply for having a sign out front. But I digress. I enlisted because I was bored, life was to easy and what the hell I like seeing things go boom and not just an m80 in the backyard (and you I can make big bombs HAHAHA really have no clue until you are 500feet away in a bunker when 6 40lb cratering charges go off)

We as in the military have a fixed pay rate. The goverment likes to toy with us by saying when they argue that we wont get paid. We make plans, borrow money just to pay rent and several people in my unit alone are below the poverty level. But we take it, we reup and we charlie mike. Its our job and we dont do it to get rich.

YET the unions teacher etc all bitch. WE WANT MORE MONEY. They get it. Welfair moms will never miss a check, and roads that are already fine get torn up and remade just to give union labor something to do. Civis do jobs WE the military used to do for 10times the amount we did it.

You want less waste less in taxes. Kill the unions and let the free market work. Why should some idiot holding a stop sign get 3times my pay to stand around when my 18 hour day involves driving very slow looking for an IED. I dont want a pay raise I want people to be paid what is fair.

Whats wrong with this country is Unions. Boing is a pefect example. They get sued because they built a plant in a non-union state.. If I were them I would say STFU and move the plant to china.
 
^ I have respect for you. I agree with you that the teachers and the Public guys should not get the pay raises. Now, unions in PRIVATE ar not an issue. What Boeing did was their own thing, not anybodies issue. Why did people get upset, because the PUBLIC Unions got upset, not the private guys. BTW, taking Boeing to China is the dumbest thing ever. I will never fly again if that happens.
 
You're blaming the wrong people. The Union workers are not the ones who are collecting the big paychecks for work being contracted out. It's the owners of the corporations who lobbied the politicians to do it.

And I don't know where in the US they'd have to tear up perfectly good roads to give pavers something to do (and most paving is also contracted out to private companies), but if there is such a place, please send them here, my local area has undermaintained its roads for decades.

And no, what Boeing did was not their own thing, it's the interests of the people of the United States, which includes not letting companies manipulate the system to get out of doing the right thing for their workers. And if Boeing moved to China, I'd say we should shoot their planes down instead. Why? Because the American people should care about themselves, and clearly if Boeing moved to another country, they would not be acting in our interests, they'd be our enemies.

You might as well say it's not my business if my neighbor upstream is pissing in the river.

 


Hear, hear. The only reason the current unions can even exist is that the government made a special exemption to the anti-monopoly laws for them. And of course, like any monopoly, they abuse their position.
 
Yeah, that's why with less than 10% of workers nationwide unionized, they are clearly controlling the market!

Oh wait, no, that's not happening.

The lack of union representation could be why worker salaries have remained near-flat while executive compensation has escalated.

Why do you blame unions when there's far more abuse going on in executive board rooms?

 
Even Hitler knew how bad unions are. Public unions make more than their private counterpart so quit whining. Plus those public unions get paid by the taxpayers.
 


They certainly control specific markets. Many non-elected, non-appointed government employees are unionized. Many manufacturing employees are unionized. If you wonder one reason why manufacturing is waning in the U.S., could it possibly be that you have to pay >$100k in salary and benefits to workers just to bolt seats into a car?

The lack of union representation could be why worker salaries have remained near-flat while executive compensation has escalated.
Click to expand...

Worker salaries have actually risen, along with the dollar value of everything else in the country due to inflation. You're looking at relative figures, and why the relative salaries of manufacturing workers haven't gone up is because a lot of manufacturing is essentially unskilled or semi-skilled labor. Those jobs were heavily unionized and companies couldn't afford to pay workers those large salaries and still stay in business. (Remember, GM is a prime example of a company that paid workers enormous salaries, and look, they went benkrupt.) Companies went with greater automation of manufacturing lines and/or did the manufacturing in Mexico or overseas to get around the expense of making things here in the U.S. The people who were running the companies got rewarded for keeping the company in business.

Why do you blame unions when there's far more abuse going on in executive board rooms?
Click to expand...

What goes on in board rooms isn't enshrined into laws like unions' rent-seeking legislation. How much corporate execs get paid is up to the company's board of directors; there is no "price floor" on CEO wages set by the Department of Labor.
 
lol I lose like $480 every single check to taxes. I wish they only took off $50 like someone else posted lol. But then again we pay a bit more in taxes in Canada than Americans do. Our health care sure isn't free we pay out the butt for it.
 
Ok, let's reply to all three.

1. No, I'm not. I'm just not singling them out, the figure is 10% across the board, public and private. If it were just private, then it'd be closer to 7% instead. Since the post to which I replied was not focused solely on the public sector, why should I have done so? Me, I see no reason to make an exception but instead note the labor pool across the board, and why are you digging up FDR for your source of authority? Seems to me that's a common line, to the point of being part of a standard conservative talking points, but you do know that can be turned against you, as it was when Reagan's responses were for the recent debt ceiling. Appealing to authority is a bad practice. I recommend avoiding it, especially when it's likely not an original thought, but a bit of dogma.

2. Except that figure is not adjusted for the different levels of education or years of service on the job. When you control for that, the level of compensation is less. Is there some reason I should be upset that teachers have a higher average salary than the whole which includes teenagers just entering the labor force? I don't think so. So, sorry, but the average public sector worker is not comparable to the average of all workers.

And what is wrong about being paid by the taxpayers? Really, do you think it's payment for nothing? Do you think that the police should work for free? That teachers should work out of charity? That you should have your sewer maintained by somebody who didn't get paid? Some concern about accountability may be warranted, though it is important not to become overwrought, you can spend nickels to save pennies, but you seem to reject the idea of being paid at all.

That seems excessive.

3. Manufacturing is waning in the US? Only the jobs, but productivity is going up, and except for the recent global economic downturn, so was production. The US still produces over 1.5 trillion dollars worth of goods. Just with fewer, more efficient workers, and a concentration on high-margin goods instead of the low-margin ones. And no, those jobs were not unionized, that's why they got left behind, since the workers did not stand together.

Whose salaries have gone up, somewhat, but not at the rate CEO and executive pay has. Perhaps not even enough to keep up with inflation. Personally, I would not object to laws restricting that excessive compensation on the part of the executives, it's nasty when the average executive makes 262 times what the average worker does. It used to be less than 50 times. I can understand more pay, but the gap has certainly gotten quite wide. And GM did not go bankrupt because the workers were getting overpaid. Stop believing that lie. They went bankrupt because of the decisions made in the executive boardrooms, such as their pursuit of high-margin large cars and their compensation instead of investment in the company.

They didn't get rewarded for keeping the company in good business, sometimes they even got rewarded for making decisions to gut the company. See corporate raiders like Mitt Romney for example. And yes, they do have laws to get what they want, that's why they BUY politicians, isn't it?

Heck, who do you think those bailouts were for? It wasn't for the average worker.



4. And to the one just above, Canada pays less than the US for healthcare. About 60% of the US average.
 
Yeah, it'd probably be better to just ignore the frivolous complaints against teachers.

Or even actually schedule a hearing instead of waiting for the teacher to give up and move on.

 


I have absolutely have no problem paying taxes...I do have a problem however, on what my tax money is being spent on...such as an entire society of leeching entitlement collecters on welfare.
 
Of course, the reality is that welfare is a path to work for many, and requirements for employment for the otherwise able have been part of the laws for over a decade.

And besides, do you think your objection about people wanting the country's wealth doesn't apply to those big corporations who want THEIR share of the federal dole?


 


Welfare is the path to work...?...You can't be serious. Welfare gives the poor so much money, they sit all day doing nothing but watching TV and eating. They don't need work if they have welfare.

Big corporations who want thier federal dole?, name one. Corporations are companies that make profit, you are not entitled to that profit.
 
Yep, you are sadly out of date, you must have missed the reforms of the nineties.

And yes, corporations do want their federal dole. For a recent example, try the jet engine Boehner tried to defend. Fortunately that was stopped, but others continue.



 


Actually, yes "we" are entitled because the corporations make money through "our" labor and they don't pay "us" enough for it (if they did there would be no debate on healthcare and educational reform since everyone with a job could pay for these services), not to mention the tax loopholes, tax cuts, government contracts and subsidies corporations receive, they also benefit disproportionally off public infrastructure, the courts and the police force. Americans get a bad deal: they get much less out of every hour they work than people in any other developed nation, all Americans except for the rich, they are better off in America than anywhere else in the developed world. But by all means, go ahead and continue believin that a few lazy slobs abusing the system for $5k a year cause more damage than corporate fat cats and inside traders embezzling many millions...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

TRENDING THREADS

Latest posts

Moderators online

Share this page

COMPANY
RESOURCES
FOLLOW
Top Bottom