Why are we destroying America?

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America is lucky to have such high immigration. European countries don't have it and as a result suffer from rapid ageing and a shrinking workforce. Germany's population will shrink by as much as 25% by 2070, which is not good...
 

He's anti-american, because he destroying the country.[/quotemsg]


Clearly, you don't understand socialism very well.

The ideas behind socialism (a term that usually refers to the social-democratic ideology followed by most European parties, not communism - many Americans don't understand the distinction) is not taking away freedoms or anything like that.

Socialism is not against capitalism. It does not believe a rich person should be made poor in order to give hand outs to the poor and lazy. It simply starts from three initial premises:

- No person should have to be poor because of misfortune (disease, old age, ill health) and everyone should have access to a basic safety net that keeps everyone over the poverty limit, even if only barely so. This requires a limited degree of redistribution of wealth, but nothing like what Tea Partiers and other right wing fundamentalists seem to believe is required.
- While there should not be equality of outcome, there should be equality of opportunity. Every person is born equal and should this start life equal. This requires high quality free education and healthcare for all and not the American system in which the quality of your education is not determined by your own talent, but by the wealth of your parents.

Please, read about the history of socialism from Rousseau and Owen through Marx and Engels to Bakoenin and eventually Bernstein and modern socialism.

The US competes against 27 countries, none of which much larger than a US state. Europe is only as large as the US and western Europe is actually a lot smaller (250 million people or so from the top of my head).

The best American hospitals better than the best European hospitals? Perhaps so, but that doesn't change the US' low life expectancy, expensive health care and it ranking at the very bottom in comparisons with other western nations.

Believe what you will about Democrats destroying the country, but statistics clearly show that economic performance was highest under Democratic presidencies. Oh, and I don't even dare imagining what would have happened if the Republicans had been in power now. All countries that tried cutting deficits and debts during the recession still aren't out of it, those that kept spending are now growing steadily and reducing their debts painlessly (think Germany).

Rule one of basic economics: don't cut spending during a recession. When households and businesses have to stop spending, massive government spending is the only thing that keeps the economy going till the private sector picks up again. Obama's only fault was that he spent too little too late and on the wrong things.
 
So, since europes countries are shrinking allowing for less costs and needs, no one sending billions of dollars out of country, not being turned over, like in the US
No weight of free schooling, elementary or high or college, health care as well, since many go to emergency, where they cant be refused, those costs with those numbers add up
Im saying the open market has served us well until certain tipping points were realised, where socialist ideals were playing 2nd rate
 
Id also remind, it wasnt others lifting themselves up as much as the US falling

PS In an open market, you have rises and declines, where the US is obviously in one, but this can be fixed
Its appearing Greece and others, using a more socialist approach appears to be collapsing
 
Actually, the shrinking is a negative, not a positive. It reduces incomes and activity, not costs. Causation is a tough thing to trace, some of it can come from WW2, others from WW1, and even older. Ireland is STILL recovering from the Potato Blight.

Why did I type 2 twice? Sigh.

Also, the costs of education are far out-weighed by the benefits. There's a reason why it's considered an obligation of the government.
 
Not if those illegals never become part of the system, and continue to send billions out of country
If they dont pay taxes, its worse yet
They use the system, the feds dont allow for making them go back, or become legal, as the states try, and are told to back off and sued, which costs more monies

I understand the benefits of immigration, but the influx has yet to go black, and is putting a severe weight upon the system, weakened already.
Then, we also have the military, which can be argued for, just like Obama argues for stimulis, if it wasnt there, what could have happened

These things make America unique, and when things get tight, the ones whos paid their entire lives are cut shorter and shorter, realising that illegals pay less, and yes, they also get less, but with little to go around, it brings forth a stronger consideration of impacts
 



Clearly, you don't understand socialism very well.

The ideas behind socialism (a term that usually refers to the social-democratic ideology followed by most European parties, not communism - many Americans don't understand the distinction) is not taking away freedoms or anything like that.

Socialism is not against capitalism. It does not believe a rich person should be made poor in order to give hand outs to the poor and lazy. It simply starts from three initial premises:

- No person should have to be poor because of misfortune (disease, old age, ill health) and everyone should have access to a basic safety net that keeps everyone over the poverty limit, even if only barely so. This requires a limited degree of redistribution of wealth, but nothing like what Tea Partiers and other right wing fundamentalists seem to believe is required.
- While there should not be equality of outcome, there should be equality of opportunity. Every person is born equal and should this start life equal. This requires high quality free education and healthcare for all and not the American system in which the quality of your education is not determined by your own talent, but by the wealth of your parents.

Please, read about the history of socialism from Rousseau and Owen through Marx and Engels to Bakoenin and eventually Bernstein and modern socialism.

The US competes against 27 countries, none of which much larger than a US state. Europe is only as large as the US and western Europe is actually a lot smaller (250 million people or so from the top of my head).

The best American hospitals better than the best European hospitals? Perhaps so, but that doesn't change the US' low life expectancy, expensive health care and it ranking at the very bottom in comparisons with other western nations.

Believe what you will about Democrats destroying the country, but statistics clearly show that economic performance was highest under Democratic presidencies. Oh, and I don't even dare imagining what would have happened if the Republicans had been in power now. All countries that tried cutting deficits and debts during the recession still aren't out of it, those that kept spending are now growing steadily and reducing their debts painlessly (think Germany).

Rule one of basic economics: don't cut spending during a recession. When households and businesses have to stop spending, massive government spending is the only thing that keeps the economy going till the private sector picks up again. Obama's only fault was that he spent too little too late and on the wrong things.[/quotemsg]

You think you know what socialism is, because you read from the dictionary...I'm talking about real-life...aka the USSR...please, don't act like you know a damn thing about socialism and what costs, eventually it evolves into a highly corrupt system no matter what, history proves it.

The US competes against 27 countries, none of which much larger than a US state. Europe is only as large as the US and western Europe is actually a lot smaller (250 million people or so from the top of my head).
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Once again facts...facts...facts...the EU consists of 500million people approximately. I'm not talking about western or eastern europe...I'm talking about the European Union.

The best American hospitals better than the best European hospitals? Perhaps so, but that doesn't change the US' low life expectancy, expensive health care and it ranking at the very bottom in comparisons with other western nations.
Click to expand...

That has very little to do with healthcare...too many ppl in America eat fast food and all kinds of junk good, plus they don't exercise.

Believe what you will about Democrats destroying the country, but statistics clearly show that economic performance was highest under Democratic presidencies. Oh, and I don't even dare imagining what would have happened if the Republicans had been in power now. All countries that tried cutting deficits and debts during the recession still aren't out of it, those that kept spending are now growing steadily and reducing their debts painlessly (think Germany).

Rule one of basic economics: don't cut spending during a recession. When households and businesses have to stop spending, massive government spending is the only thing that keeps the economy going till the private sector picks up again. Obama's only fault was that he spent too little too late and on the wrong things
Click to expand...

Statistics show that economy does better under democratic presidencies perhaps, but the best economy is when opposite parties control the branches of government...aka democratic president and republican congress or vice versa. If clinton hadn't caused the recession, there wouldn't be a need for all this spending :)
 


I think I actually am quite well placed to say what socialism is. I live in a country that is what you call 'socialist', have parents that frequently visited the Soviet Union and East Germany (for business, if that sounds believable to you) and I had to endure over a year of courses about the history of the main political ideologies (fascism, liberalism, socialism, libertarianism and the other isms that pop up left and right).

Socialism and Communism are not related in any way. The Soviet Union was communist, not socialist (as pointed out by the ruling CCCP: central committee of the COMMUNIST party, the official communist ideology and the word 'Soviet' in its name).

The EU cannot be compared to the US. Its closest peer in the Americas would be NAFTA. But okay, have it your way. Let's compare the entire EU;

- Northern EU: best performing part of the western world.
- Western EU: similar to northern.
- Eastern EU: despite years of communism, most eastern EU countries are growing very fast and have a modern and open economy (chances are significant you're even using an ex-communist anti virus program like AVG, Avast or ESET).
- Southern EU: Italy is doing fine while Spain, Portugal and Greece are still recovering from years of Republican government. Don't blame them for that.

A healthy lifestyle has an awful lot to do with quality healthcare. It's called preventive medicine, but that never broke through in the US. Quite logical of course, as healthcare is a for-profit enterprise in the US, so healthcare providers have no incentive to actually try to prevent you from falling ill. Where are the government funded information and awareness campaigns? The fat tax? Restrictions on the use of unhealthy additives?

Please enlighten me. How did Clinton cause the recession? With his long period of low government spending?
 


The US doesn't have some 38 million illegals, it's closer to 12 million. And what makes you think there are no illegals in Europe? There are an estimated 200.000 illegals in the Netherlands alone (a country of 16 million people), the UK even has an estimated 1 million of them, as does Italy and presumably Spain as well. With the European population being more aged every immigrant is more of a burden here than in America.
 


Well, my parents were born and lived in the soviet union, before they immigrated from what hellhole here...and by the way when my parents came here, they didn't use a dime of entitlements, they stood up on their feet by themselves.

Socialism and Communism are not related in any way. The Soviet Union was communist, not socialist (as pointed out by the ruling CCCP: central committee of the COMMUNIST party, the official communist ideology and the word 'Soviet' in its name).
Click to expand...

Okay good, you realize that they are different, I was getting scared you were thinking they are the same. Technically they are a bit related but not by much. However in real-life they are a lot more similar then they are in the dictionary, you know that.

Also, the Soviet Union was not communist, get your history straight. CCCP is not an English acronym, the translation of CCCP is USSR. C in Russian is S in English. Nowhere is it communism in the acronym.

Moreover, even if I'm wrong, the system they had was a socialist dictatorship...nowhere near communism. I understand your parents were tourists there, but tourism is different from actually being a citizen...

The EU cannot be compared to the US
Click to expand...

The EU was created specifically to compete with the U.S, because individually, no country in Europe can possibly compete with the United States. Russia can compete with us, but its not in the EU.

A healthy lifestyle has an awful lot to do with quality healthcare. It's called preventive medicine, but that never broke through in the US. Quite logical of course, as healthcare is a for-profit enterprise in the US, so healthcare providers have no incentive to actually try to prevent you from falling ill. Where are the government funded information and awareness campaigns? The fat tax? Restrictions on the use of unhealthy additives?
Click to expand...

I agree, prevention is better then cure. The private sector is a business, and the entire purpose is for profit, so you can't blame them for not caring or having morals...moreover, instead of destroying the private healthcare system, it would have been far easier to simply regulated it...put some regulations on pricing and appointments as well as use of medicine and you have yourself a solution. A highly regulated private sector is still way more effective and efficient than a government controlled entity.

Please enlighten me. How did Clinton cause the recession? With his long period of low government spending?
Click to expand...

Forcing private banks to provide loans to unqualified borrowers under rule of the 1977 CRA and then having fannie and freddia buy off these loans thereby creating artificial prices and teaser interest rates which couldn't be payed once they ended, so people walked out on payment and the result was the banks and the people lost money.

Whoever caused the recession, its sure as hell was not bush, if you blame bush for the recession, it clearly shows me you have no clue about history of the last 20 years and how economics as well as politics work in the United States at least. Bush tried stopping the recession in fact. He is responsible for a lot of death and debt from wars, but not the recession.
 


Kinda, but it's not what Silmarunya was getting at, which was preventative care that didn't bring money into the pockets of insurers, pharmaceutical companies and doctors, things like excercise and a healthy diet.
 


How do you plan on legislating excercise and healthy diet?
 
I'd suggest methods of encouraging it, through community designs that facilitate exercise and education programs.

Or just making the information available. There's a reason why fast food fought labeling. People can make better decisions with proper information.

Most proscriptive regulation would be in the commerce rather than the individual conduct. The only time it'd come up in individual conduct is parental responsibilities.

 


The community reinvestment act was also designed to *encourage* banks to give loans. It turned out to be a waste of time and money, because banks didn't...so in the end they were forced to do so.
 
Except...those loans defaulted at a far lower rate than the other loans, and the real problem was the excess housing construction based on risky speculation of increasing prices, most of which was way outside the CRA boundaries.

At the low-end, covered by the CRA, everything was fine in comparison.

But you want a few dozen examples of effective government encouragement? Try the Interstate Highway System. Try the TVA. Try the Internet.

And of course, you'll want to look at any number of incentive programs for local industry, which range from car plants to distribution warehouses. Or subsidies for oil production.

Sorry, but your example is incorrect, but even if you were accurate in your description, there's many many many others to counter it.



 


Funny since it was the Republicans that actually caused S&P to downgrade US's credit. Obama implemented the balanced plan which is to cut and raise revenues (increasing taxes). The republican congress went against any increased revenues and went on over a month worth of bickering which shouldn't have happened. S&P approved the balanced plan and it would have avoided the downgrade on the US.

I blame the Republicans for not coming up with one solution that would have entirely avoided the downgrade. After the downgrade happened, The republican party all came out in name calling rage fashion blaming the president when it is their own fault that got the USA in the mess. In fact even S&P blames them. If you do not believe me, I do have sources to back it up.

Go on http://www.standardandpoors.com/ratings/articles/en/us/?assetID=1245316529563
Read their reasons of the downgrade and it says exactly this

'We have changed our assumption on this because the majority
of Republicans in Congress continue to resist any measure that would raise
revenues, a position we believe Congress reinforced by passing the act.'

And there we have it. The republicans caused another recent recession again. To say that the democratic caused the recession is just blatantly stupid. During the Clinton years, we actually had surpluses that actually paid down the national debt but when Bush came into office, Bush managed to actually turn the surpluses into deficit which actually sank us deeper into the national debt.

As the years went on, the national debt had skyrocketed to the point that the people especially the corporations were freaking out and the banks were unable to take on any more loans. That had caused major part of the crash of 2008. Sure, it was partly the democratic fault of fannie and freddy mae mess but it was not entirely their fault. They did contribute to the problem but no party is perfect. Watch the movie "Inside Job" if you want to be educated about how the entire crash of 2008 happened.

In the light of this, I find alot more things to blame about Republicans than Democratic in handling of America. If the Republican ran their way, it's corporate socialism with the tax cuts and tax loopholes which saves corporations alot of money and they use that money to send jobs oversea just to make more profit. At this time of history in America, we are facing 'corporate socialism'. When the corporate has too much wealth and hoards it, recession will occur. But when the corporate spends money on the domestic jobs and pay them well, the money will continue to flow, and in return, more people will find jobs and with more jobs, people will be able to buy more things which translate in more profit for the corporate. USA will also get more money from the income taxes which they can use to invest in education, healthcare, and infrastructure which is the positive force for any business to thrive in.

By this logic, if you give 1 dollar to a rich person, he would just hold it in his bank because he has no use for it which does not exactly simulate the economy. But if you give 1 dollar to a poor person, that person would use the money to buy foods or pay for the debts which will simulate the economy and basically give the money back to the corporate which they can use to invest in other things.

We just need to make business in USA more business friendly and we are not doing that because the education here is failing and so is the infrastructure. Don't even get started on the healthcare because the poor people cant even afford it. I know some people who work has problems with their legs or wrist and cannot take care of their problems because they cannot afford the skyrocketing healthcare costs.

Business will thrive if we have educated and healthy workforce as well as good maintained infrastructure. We just need more middle class to support the rich, not the poor to support the ultra rich. We are all human beings and we all have rights damn it! We need to have good education to develop real job skills, good healthcare to be healthy and work efficiently (A person who has problems with their wrists or any other body parts will not improve efficiency in their job but actually slows it down) and a great infrastructure which I think is self explanatory.

However in a real corporate socialism country which is USA, a businessman knows no country but of profit.
 
I can cherry pick also. From the same article:

"The outlook on the long-term rating is negative. We could lower the
long-term rating to 'AA' within the next two years if we see that less
reduction in spending than agreed to, higher interest rates, or new
fiscal pressures during the period result in a higher general government
debt trajectory than we currently assume in our base case."

It is not primarily about political bickering. It is about the debt.
 
Medicare is a real problem for some people. I still get health insurance through my company and dental through my mother. Im lucky I get to go to the dentist and the hospital when I get sick. My girlfriend though isnt so lucky. Im not keen on getting married anytime soon so she cant be covered through me(No domestic partnership in NH). She graduated from college so she cant get coverage through her parents, where she works now she cant get coverage (Its not the field she graduated in....). we make just enough money not to be covered by state health companies.So every time she gets a toothache or sick or a sprained this or that it adds a lot of tension to the relationship and to our mental health. Thankfully we haven't had any medical issues yet.

Remember most of you are older and have professions that offer health care. For some of us younger people its not unusual to know kids that have zero coverage, and that will avoid getting health issues looked at because they don't have the money. And it gets scary when your young sick and no one will help you.
 
Wow there, oldmangamer73, are you saying you are recommending that evil socialist monster to people? Are you saying it's a good thing it exists and helps some people out (even though your nephew still has to cough up $500 for the crime of his child needing a c-section)? Are you sure you're feeling ok? Did someone hack into your account?
 
You have no idea what this is like. I know people that go to the emergency room when they get sick or break something use a fake name and just split as soon as they get patched up. Not because they are assholes or like abusing the system, they have no choice.

How old are you guys, Im assuming 40+? How long have you had proper health care? I can not stress this enough there are huge numbers of people that don't have coverage by no fault of their own. You sound like politicians when you say free healthcare is socialist. That's stupid, we live in the most powerful country in the world (Debated) and yet we still have people sick and dieing the streets. That's outrageous. Our soldiers cant even get proper coverage. The people who are in charge of this debate only see the numbers on paper, they have never had to struggle to pay bills or get worried when someone is sick.


A healthy country is a productive one, I think that everyone can agree on that.
 


Did you know unhealthy ingredients are being subsidized more than healthy ingredients through farm and corporate subsidies? Let's start there. Also, get rid of ads for prescription drugs.
 
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