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[newtechldtech]

The main problem with the QVL is trying to source the exact memory models they qualified. Memory products have a relatively short product cycle, which means they can be difficult or impossible to find within as little as 6 months, or perhaps very overpriced when you can find them.


Tedium isn't the issue. The issue is that they qualify relatively few models of each capacity & speed, leaving you with very limited options.

Here's the entire QVL for that board:

​

​

Type	Vendor	Speed	Size	Model	Chip	Sides
DDR3	ADATA	1600	4GB	ADDS1600W4G11-B		DS
DDR3	ADATA	1333	4GB	AD3S1333C4G9-R		DS
DDR3	Apacer	1333	4GB	78.B346G.C670C		DS
DDR3	Corsair	1600	8GB	CMSO16GX3M2C1600C11		DS
DDR3	Crucial	1866	8GB	CT102464BF186D.M16FP		DS
DDR3	Crucial	1866	4GB	CT51264BF186DJ.M8FP		DS
DDR3	Crucial	1600	16GB	CT204864BF160B		DS
DDR3	HyperX	1600	8GB	HX316LS9IBK2/16	PSC B-die	DS
DDR3	Kingmax	1600	8GB	FSGG43F-D8MMB YXE		DS
DDR3	Kingston	1866	8GB	HX318LS11IBK2/16	PSC B-die	DS
DDR3	Kingston	1600	8GB	KVR16LS11/8		DS
DDR3	Kingston	1600	4GB	KVR16LS11/4		DS
DDR3	Panram	1600	8GB	PSD3L1600C118G2VS		DS
DDR3	Transcend	1600	8GB	TS1GSK64W6H		DS
DDR3	Transcend	1600	4GB	TS512MSK64W6H		DS

Source: https://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/J4205-ITX/index.us.asp#Memory​

​

So, let's say you wanted to have 16 GB. You had exactly one option. And if that kit was out of production, then if you can even find the kit, it might cost you an arm and a leg. Or, if you wanted 8 GB @ 1866, then you had just two options. To say nothing of 16 GB @ 1866, where they provide zero options, yet maybe newer DDR3 chips are up to the challenge.

Basically, the idea of sticking to such a limited QVL is unrealistic, especially if you're buying a board like this a couple years after its introduction.

upgrading memory after lets say five years today will force you to use standard not overclocked ones ... in General any kit will work ...

 

[Tac 25]

since 10th gen is being talked about a bit. Adding in a little info. In the manual of my mobo. Could only use pcie 3.0 if I have an i5 10th gen installed, ram speed is also capped at a certain amount. However, if I install an 11th gen, Pcie 4.0 function would be enabled, and faster ram speed would also be available.

edit: holding the B560M-K manual right now. These are the exact words.

-Only Intel 11th Gen processors support PCIe 4.0 x4 mode, this slot will be disabled for other CPU's.

 

[bit_user]

upgrading memory after lets say five years today will force you to use standard not overclocked ones ... in General any kit will work ...

If you follow this chain of comments back to my original point, it was that this particular board didn't!! That said, I believe it's unusually picky about memory.

If you build enough different PCs, for long enough, it seems likely that you'll eventually get bitten by some form of memory compatibility issue, even if it's just memory not running at the expected speed. That's why I always try to use some form of compatibility checker, whether it's the board maker's QVL or the memory manufacturer's database.

We could also get into a whole discussion about singe-rank vs. dual-rank. For a long time, I assumed single-rank was always better. It turns out not to be, if you're running at stock speeds and especially 1 DIMM per channel.

 

[MG Clark]

The main problem with the QVL is trying to source the exact memory models they qualified. Memory products have a relatively short product cycle, which means they can be difficult or impossible to find within as little as 6 months, or perhaps very overpriced when you can find them.


Tedium isn't the issue. The issue is that they qualify relatively few models of each capacity & speed, leaving you with very limited options.

Here's the entire QVL for that board:

​

​

Type	Vendor	Speed	Size	Model	Chip	Sides
DDR3	ADATA	1600	4GB	ADDS1600W4G11-B		DS
DDR3	ADATA	1333	4GB	AD3S1333C4G9-R		DS
DDR3	Apacer	1333	4GB	78.B346G.C670C		DS
DDR3	Corsair	1600	8GB	CMSO16GX3M2C1600C11		DS
DDR3	Crucial	1866	8GB	CT102464BF186D.M16FP		DS
DDR3	Crucial	1866	4GB	CT51264BF186DJ.M8FP		DS
DDR3	Crucial	1600	16GB	CT204864BF160B		DS
DDR3	HyperX	1600	8GB	HX316LS9IBK2/16	PSC B-die	DS
DDR3	Kingmax	1600	8GB	FSGG43F-D8MMB YXE		DS
DDR3	Kingston	1866	8GB	HX318LS11IBK2/16	PSC B-die	DS
DDR3	Kingston	1600	8GB	KVR16LS11/8		DS
DDR3	Kingston	1600	4GB	KVR16LS11/4		DS
DDR3	Panram	1600	8GB	PSD3L1600C118G2VS		DS
DDR3	Transcend	1600	8GB	TS1GSK64W6H		DS
DDR3	Transcend	1600	4GB	TS512MSK64W6H		DS

Source: https://www.asrock.com/mb/Intel/J4205-ITX/index.us.asp#Memory​

​

So, let's say you wanted to have 16 GB. You had exactly one option. And if that kit was out of production, then if you can even find the kit, it might cost you an arm and a leg. Or, if you wanted 8 GB @ 1866, then you had just two options. To say nothing of 16 GB @ 1866, where they provide zero options, yet maybe newer DDR3 chips are up to the challenge.

Basically, the idea of sticking to such a limited QVL is unrealistic, especially if you're buying a board like this a couple years after its introduction.

Which is exactly why I never buy a motherboard without insuring I can find an acceptable memory solution to order at the same time (if I don't already have something on the QVL)...

It doesn't always have to be an exact match. It doesn't matter if the part number on the QVL is for the black low profile heat spreader version and I buy the exact same memory with taller red heat spreaders. If the memory chips are the same then the color or shape of the heat spreaders doesn't matter. But the timings, number of ranks, who made the memory, etc. needs to be the same.

If you don't know how to decode the various memory marketers' naming schemes, then a list like this one is your friend.

 

[MG Clark]

I thought Intel completely walked back on Gen 10 (Comet Lake) having any PCIe 4.0 functionality.

​

Intel Gets the Jitters: Plans, Then Nixes, PCIe 4.0 Support on Comet Lake

One step forward, one step back.

www.tomshardware.com

​

Could very well be. I didn't build anything with a 10th gen CPU.

I do know that when I was choosing parts for an 11th gen build *every single* Z590 MB from *every single* manufacturer had the same disclaimer clearly spelled out in the specs: The CPU connected PCIe 4x4 M2 slot was not compatible with 10th generation Intel CPUs and could not be used with a 10th gen CPU. Only the PCH connected PCIe slots are usable with 10th generation CPUs.

 

[MG Clark]

since 10th gen is being talked about a bit. Adding in a little info. In the manual of my mobo. Could only use pcie 3.0 if I have an i5 10th gen installed, ram speed is also capped at a certain amount. However, if I install an 11th gen, Pcie 4.0 function would be enabled, and faster ram speed would also be available.

edit: holding the B560M-K manual right now. These are the exact words.

-Only Intel 11th Gen processors support PCIe 4.0 x4 mode, this slot will be disabled for other CPU's.

You couldn't even use a PCIe 3.0 NVMe M.2 drive in the CPU PCIe M2 slot, you had to put it in the PCH connected slot(s).

 

[MG Clark]

If you follow this chain of comments back to my original point, it was that this particular board didn't!! That said, I believe it's unusually picky about memory.

If you build enough different PCs, for long enough, it seems likely that you'll eventually get bitten by some form of memory compatibility issue, even if it's just memory not running at the expected speed. That's why I always try to use some form of compatibility checker, whether it's the board maker's QVL or the memory manufacturer's database.

We could also get into a whole discussion about singe-rank vs. dual-rank. For a long time, I assumed single-rank was always better. It turns out not to be, if you're running at stock speeds and especially 1 DIMM per channel.

What happened to the memory that was bought when the MB was originally purchased? Why couldn't you use it?

 

[MG Clark]

If you follow this chain of comments back to my original point, it was that this particular board didn't!! That said, I believe it's unusually picky about memory.

The exceptionally short QVL should have tipped you off that the board would be unusually picky about memory.

In general, the shorter the QVL list is, the more you need to make sure you can get something that is on the list!

Otherwise:

... you'll eventually get bitten by some form of memory compatibility issue...

 

[bit_user]

Which is exactly why I never buy a motherboard without insuring I can find an acceptable memory solution to order at the same time (if I don't already have something on the QVL)...

Well, in this case, there weren't a lot of options for running an Apollo Lake on mini-ITX. That's what I wanted, and prior experience indicated that memory vendors could be trusted to at least steer me towards a kit that would work.

But the timings, number of ranks, who made the memory, etc. needs to be the same.

It's more than just timings, rank, and DRAM manufacture, but also how SPD is programmed. "Close" might not cut it.

What happened to the memory that was bought when the MB was originally purchased? Why couldn't you use it?

As I mentioned, there were two problems with that system:

• DC-DC Converter board.
• DIMM compatibility.

If it were just one or the other, I might've gotten to the bottom of it. But, the combination of both problems was enough to convince me the motherboard itself could be dead (either I killed it or maybe it was defective) and put it aside. It was sometime later that I read about memory compatibility woes with those SoCs.

Eventually, when I got the PSU situation sorted out (thanks to a Gemini Lake-R board I picked up + DDR4 DIMMs for it), I managed to sort out the DC-DC converter board issue and then went back and re-tested different memory permutations on the Apollo Lake board.

I eventually found that I could run it with a single DIMM in slot B - not what you'd expect. I'm sure I had tried running it with a single DIMM in slot A.

Incidentally, the Gemini Lake-R (Pentium Silver J5040) board works with either both DIMMs or a single DIMM in slot B. It also wont POST with just a DIMM in slot A. What a product!

The exceptionally short QVL should have tipped you off that the board would be unusually picky about memory.

Or, just that the manufacturer was lazy because it's a low-cost, low-margin product for them. So, they simply didn't invest the time & energy validating more kits.

Otherwise:

You're determined to blame this all on me, huh? Just google for that board and you'll find no end of complaints about it - mostly memory.

I'm sure I read some reviews when I bought it, but I wasn't in the habit of googling for additional information beyond what reviewers on Newegg or Amazon had said, because I had never found them to be untrustworthy or inadequate.

 

[MG Clark]

It's more than just timings, rank, and DRAM manufacture, but also how SPD is programmed. "Close" might not cut it.

Things like SPD, etc. is what the "etc." was for in the comment above to which you responded. As long as the chips, including the controller and its settings are the same, the cosmetics do not matter one iota.

If it were just one or the other, I might've gotten to the bottom of it. But, the combination of both problems was enough to convince me the motherboard itself could be dead (either I killed it or maybe it was defective) and put it aside. It was sometime later that I read about memory compatibility woes with those SoCs.

Eventually, when I got the PSU situation sorted out (thanks to a Gemini Lake-R board I picked up + DDR4 DIMMs for it), I managed to sort out the DC-DC converter board issue and then went back and re-tested different memory permutations on the Apollo Lake board.

I eventually found that I could run it with a single DIMM in slot B - not what you'd expect. I'm sure I had tried running it with a single DIMM in slot A.

Incidentally, the Gemini Lake-R (Pentium Silver J5040) board works with either both DIMMs or a single DIMM in slot B. It also wont POST with just a DIMM in slot A. What a product!


You're determined to blame this all on me, huh? Just google for that board and you'll find no end of complaints about it - mostly memory.

Yet you're still complaining about having issues with a "product" that you concede is well known to be a problem child? That you had already had significant issues with in the past? That is now so old that nothing on the QVL DRAM list is still available?

Patient: "Doctor, it hurts when I do this."

Doctor: "Then don't do that."

 

[bit_user]

Yet you're still complaining about having issues with a "product" that you concede is well known to be a problem child?

Drop the quotes. ASRock is one of the major brands and they make a pretty broad variety of such boards and have for a while (now on their 5th generation - Apollo Lake was their 2nd gen). You can see the full list, if you go here and click the filter"Intel CPU onboard":

https://www.asrock.com/mb/index.us.asp#Intel CPU
​

That you had already had significant issues with in the past?

Not sure what you mean by that. I'm saying I bought their J4205-ITX board and it was literally the first build I failed to complete. I gave the reasons.

That is now so old that nothing on the QVL DRAM list is still available?

There's ebay, and you can even find some of the kits available as new - just often at very inflated prices.

As I said, a big problem with memory QVLs is that memory vendors are changing their product lineups as much as multiple times per year. In some cases, I think I've seen boards do a couple rounds of refreshes to their memory QVLs.

Patient: "Doctor, it hurts when I do this."

Doctor: "Then don't do that."

If I had bought another identical board, that might make sense, although I still didn't know if the board was fine and I simply killed it, in which case buying a second one wouldn't be completely nuts. I didn't have experience with these DC-DC converter boards, for instance. The connector on this one was short, and I was 95% sure I hadn't plugged it in wrong, but that was a nagging concern I had (you can bet that when I first booted the second board, I used a known-good ATX PSU).

What happened is that I saw a clearance sale on their J5040-ITX, which is a board & SoC two generations newer, and decided to give it another go. I had reasons why I wanted such a system - the first build wasn't a total whim. You'll note that I only made one passing complaint about the J5040. It was in building with that second board that I managed to sort out all the problems with the first one. So, had I not gone down that road, the first, failed build would still be a mystery to me.

So, bad analogy. If I were complaining this whole time about the J5040, perhaps it would be more apropos. Even so, I think it's always legitimate to complain about a product's flaws, so that others are aware. Hence, I still mentioned the weird quirk about its memory support. Nowhere does the official Product Manual or Quick Installation Guide even state that a single DIMM should go in the B1 slot.

 

[Tac 25]

@MG Clark

sorry for late reply. I was busy with friends levelling up at Star Rail the past days.

about M2 drives, the salesman at the place where I purchase SSD offered M2 - said he would help me install if I don't know. But I politely refuse, purchased two normal size SSD instead. Reason is for ease of installation. When I talked about it to our technician - he also offered to help install M2. Told our tech as well, that I plan to just use regular size SSD. Is there something special about M2 drive? Why people recommend this?

 

[randyh121]

he cost of a Windows license is at the minimum around $100

No it's not. My business just buys keys off of sites for 10-20$
You'd have to be a fool to pay 100$ and get scammed by bestbuy lol

 

[USAFRet]

No it's not. My business just buys keys off of sites for 10-20$
You have to be stupid to pay 100$ and get scammed by bestbuy lol

1. Lets not call people "stupid".

2. Your business profits off buying scam licenses.
Would your business be OK with your customers paying you 10 cents on the dollar for whatever it is you sell or provide?

 

[Darkbreeze]

No it's not. My business just buys keys off of sites for 10-20$
You have to be stupid to pay 100$ and get scammed by bestbuy lol

Yes, it is, if you are buying a legitimate license. Reselling of Windows licenses is not permissible nor authorized by Microsoft and additionally any site, business or individual selling a Windows license for less than 90 dollars is not a Microsoft authorized sales partner, which means that at any time Microsoft decides to do so they can deactivate or blacklist that license key, and they DO do this, all the time. Often in batches, especially if those cheap keys are ones that managed to disappear out the back door of a store, or fall off the back of a truck, or was pilfered in bulk from a cargo train, or any of a dozen other ways in which organized criminals and thieves get their hands on these products in order to sell them. Because aside from the occasional clueless user who doesn't realize they can't just resell their Windows license and puts it up for sale on one of these sites, the vast majority of them are being sold by criminal organizations so when you buy a license for that price what you are doing is supporting those criminal operations.

Bestbuy, Amazon, Newegg and other legitimate Microsoft sales partners are not "scamming" anybody by selling those licenses at that price anymore than dealerships are scamming automotive buyers by selling at the price the manufacturer has determined or something close to it. Obviously, since they shoulder the bulk of the shipping and handling costs they have to make SOMETHING off the sale of these licenses, but you can be sure what they make off selling Windows licenses is a pittance compared to the rest of their retail operations.

 

[randyh121]

Lets not call people "stupid".

You're right, sorry. I'll edit it

2. Your business profits off buying scam licenses.
Would your business be OK with your customers paying you 10 cents on the dollar for whatever it is you sell or provide?

I don't sell systems, I just make them for my employees.
If I did sell systems though, I absolutely would to make a profit.

Reselling of Windows licenses is not permissible nor authorized by Microsoft and additionally any site, business or individual selling a Windows license for less than 90 dollars is not a Microsoft authorized sales partner

I don't care.

and they DO do this, all the time

Have done it hundreds of times, have never had a key deactivated. If it does happen I can just buy a new one for 15$. Much more profitable to do that than spend 100$

Bestbuy, Amazon, Newegg and other legitimate Microsoft sales partners are not "scamming" anybody by selling those licenses at that price anymore than dealerships are scamming automotive buyers by selling at the price the manufacturer has determined or something close to it. Obviously, since they shoulder the bulk of the shipping and handling costs they have to make SOMETHING off the sale of these licenses, but you can be sure what they make off selling Windows licenses is a pittance compared to the rest of their retail operations.

It is a scam if I can get it for 15$ someplace else and Bestbuy sells them for 100$. Honestly I understand why bestbuy does it. The general populace is fools and does not do proper research like I do.

 

[USAFRet]

I don't sell systems, I just make them for my employees.
If I did sell systems though, I absolutely would to make a profit

You're profiting, in that you're not paying what the product actually costs.
Thereby saving that $$ into your bottom line.



People on every side of this discussion have their own opinions. And almost certainly will not change, ever.

So let's table this sidetrack.
Deal?

 

[bit_user]

I don't care.

Have done it hundreds of times, have never had a key deactivated. If it does happen I can just buy a new one for 15$. Much more profitable to do that than spend 100$

It is a scam if I can get it for 15$ someplace else and Bestbuy sells them for 100$. Honestly I understand why bestbuy does it. The general populace is fools and does not do proper research like I do.

I am not a lawyer, but I think the legal aspect of this is worth mentioning.

1. When you buy a copyright product, you're buying a license to use that product within the license terms (often referred to as Terms of Service (ToS)).
2. Hence, using or distributing that product outside the ToS is considered a copyright violation.
3. Copyright violations are a civil infraction, leaving you vulnerable to far worse than the key merely being deactivated.
4. At one point in time, a Microsoft-backed software trade group called the Business Software Alliance was suing companies found to be using pirated software or keys. Maybe that's no longer a thing, but if I owned a business I wouldn't take that chance.
5. Just because you can get away with something doesn't mean it's moral or legal.
6. The whole topic of reselling keys or buying second-hand ones arguably runs afoul of forum rules:

​

"Promoting or describing any illegal or illicit activity is prohibited. We will not allow the discussion of cracking encryption, piracy, or any other illegal conduct in our forums."​

​

Info - Tom's Hardware Official Community Rules

Official Community Rules Welcome to the Tom's Hardware forums and thanks so much for taking the time to hang out with us today. It’s important to us to have the kind of community that works together to keep things on track. After all, we’re in this together. With your help and support we can...

forums.tomshardware.com

​

 

[Darkbreeze]

I don't care.

Have done it hundreds of times, have never had a key deactivated. If it does happen I can just buy a new one for 15$. Much more profitable to do that than spend 100$

That sort of belief and life stance is exactly what is wrong with this world. It's also WHY stuff is so expensive because all that theft, being supported by users who "don't care", costs those companies money that has to be accommodated somehow else they'd go out of business and then you simply wouldn't have any worthwhile options at all anymore.

As for Microsoft and others charging 100 bucks for a Windows license. You are looking at this totally wrong.

In 1998 Microsoft sold Windows 98 for 100 dollars per license. Now, 25 years later, they STILL charge 100 dollars for a license. I don't imagine anybody here, or elsewhere, can name even ONE SINGLE THING that still costs the same as it did 25 years ago so in reality Microsoft should be praised for not having raised the cost of a Windows license in 25 years, or more. Probably longer, because I think Windows 95 retailed for about the same price or maybe even a bit more.

 

[Darkbreeze]

People on every side of this discussion have their own opinions. And almost certainly will not change, ever.

So let's table this sidetrack.

Agreed.

 

[newtechldtech]

I am not a lawyer, but I think the legal aspect of this is worth mentioning.

1. When you buy a copyright product, you're buying a license to use that product within the license terms (often referred to as Terms of Service (ToS)).
2. Hence, using or distributing that product outside the ToS is considered a copyright violation.
3. Copyright violations are a civil infraction, leaving you vulnerable to far worse than the key merely being deactivated.
4. At one point in time, a Microsoft-backed software trade group called the Business Software Alliance was suing companies found to be using pirated software or keys. Maybe that's no longer a thing, but if I owned a business I wouldn't take that chance.
5. Just because you can get away with something doesn't mean it's moral or legal.
6. The whole topic of reselling keys or buying second-hand ones arguably runs afoul of forum rules:

​

"Promoting or describing any illegal or illicit activity is prohibited. We will not allow the discussion of cracking encryption, piracy, or any other illegal conduct in our forums."​

​

Info - Tom's Hardware Official Community Rules

Official Community Rules Welcome to the Tom's Hardware forums and thanks so much for taking the time to hang out with us today. It’s important to us to have the kind of community that works together to keep things on track. After all, we’re in this together. With your help and support we can...

forums.tomshardware.com

​

Meh .. Microsoft is turning a blind eye on Volume keys being sold for $5-$15 by companies ... MS can easily stop them and they are not. the same for millions of old windows 7 keys found everywhere in the junk market on old laptops and etc , MS also never bothered to cancel these keys and over that allowed them to be upgraded to win 10.

MS could easily make a databank server for bios linked to keys as well and they never did that. EVEN with notebooks that have BIOS keys , you are allowed to enter oem keys on the same machine as well.

MS is okay with it . 100% .. and they dont see it "illegal" (YET)

 

[USAFRet]

Meh .. Microsoft is turning a blind eye on Volume keys being sold for $5-$15 by companies ... MS can easily stop them and they are not. the same for millions of old windows 7 keys found everywhere in the junk market on old laptops and etc , MS also never bothered to cancel these keys and over that allowed them to be upgraded to win 10.

MS could easily make a databank server for bios linked to keys as well and they never did that. EVEN with notebooks that have BIOS keys , you are allowed to enter oem keys on the same machine as well.

MS is okay with it . 100% .. and they dont see it "illegal" (YET)

Sigh.....

As said a couple of posts above, lets table this sidetrack.

OK?

 

[newtechldtech]

That sort of belief and life stance is exactly what is wrong with this world. It's also WHY stuff is so expensive because all that theft, being supported by users who "don't care", costs those companies money that has to be accommodated somehow else they'd go out of business and then you simply wouldn't have any worthwhile options at all anymore.

As for Microsoft and others charging 100 bucks for a Windows license. You are looking at this totally wrong.

In 1998 Microsoft sold Windows 98 for 100 dollars per license. Now, 25 years later, they STILL charge 100 dollars for a license. I don't imagine anybody here, or elsewhere, can name even ONE SINGLE THING that still costs the same as it did 25 years ago so in reality Microsoft should be praised for not having raised the cost of a Windows license in 25 years, or more. Probably longer, because I think Windows 95 retailed for about the same price or maybe even a bit more.

$100 for a "key" s alot , and MS CANT raise the price they will loose the market . besides , most keys are becoming cheaper overtime and not more expensive for most software houses ...

 

[newtechldtech]

Sigh.....

As said a couple of posts above, lets table this sidetrack.

OK?

OK

 

[USAFRet]

In the comments on this particular article...future comments on the Pros and Cons of cheap/grey market vs retail will be summarily deleted.