Why I won't buy an Intel Lunar Lake-powered laptop

[apiltch]

It is not weird.
If you look at how Lunar Lake is packaged, you'll understand why.

Intel could solve this problem by adding a 64GB SKU.

 

[USAFRet]

Intel could solve this problem by adding a 64GB SKU.

I don't see this as a "problem", that needs to be "solved".

Not every config is suitable for every user.

Especially in the ultrabook world.

That particular device having a max of 32GB is 100% fine for a LOT of people.
Maybe not thee and me, but for many, yes.

 

[Gururu]

This seems more like a rejection based on principle, because in reality you can just get the laptop next to it.

 

[rzc]

Recently I found that I prefer light laptops to carry on daily bases and long battery life, and just have the VM, machine learning or code dev tools and other stuff on a server, accessible via VPN and either remote desktop or remote connection via VS Code. I have 64GB laptop for 6 years now and in last 2-3 years it turned to just an input device for my servers. Next year I am upgrading and 32gigs intel cpu is a target, after I verify the battery claims and hopefuly return of F keys to XPS.

 

[Giroro]

It's like I said before, Intel is making a huge mistake with how they are marketing this processor.
They want a full range of processors to cover all performance use cases and price points, but that's not what they have... Like at all.
They don't have 9 processors from i5 up to i9. They have a single CPU with 2 memory configurations. It is trying to be the best at exactly 1 thing (efficiency) and they should only be comparing it to the 1 processor it was clearly designed to compete with: Apple M3.

32GB in an Intel powered "Whatever they want us to say instead of Ultrabook™" would look pretty good if it were properly being compared against the MacBook Air, which is limited to a maximum 24GB.

This CPU could have made a splash in the right market if it were appropriately branded as one single product that could stand on it's own: the ultimate in ultra portable. One of a kind (for PC) in it's own class of CPU. Make the branding simple and recognizable (like M3).

But instead, they decided to go with a confusing and boring table of indestinguishably similar SKUs, with their stupid 'V' suffix being the only element of new branding. Now it's doomed to be compared against full-fat Ryzen and Intel's own full performance product stack - where it stands no chance. They totally screwed this one up.

I can see what the engineers were trying to do with this product, but it's being completely squandered by marketing. If I were leading lunar lake dev I would have quit in protest... except the whole dev team was probably laid-off 2 months ago.

 

[Notton]

Intel could solve this problem by adding a 64GB SKU.

I guess we'll see about that.
The Samsung part number used on Lunar Lake is K3KL3L30DM-BGCU (D?GCU)
Looking at the catalogue, it's a 64Gb density, x64 organization, 8533MBps, 496FBGA that is in mass production.
Samsung has this pin compatible series with densities of 64Gb, 96Gb, 128Gb, and 144Gb (Gigabits)
Converting it over to GB, that would be 8GB, 12GB, 16GB, and 18GB per chip.
Doubling that, we see the maximum is 36GB, simply due to DRAM limitations.

Which means that, while there is a missing 24GB model, there's no way you'll see a 48GB or 64GB model, unless Micron (the other supplier seen with LNL) offers a 192Gb, and 256Gb chip.
And I am pretty sure they don't.

 

[JRStern]

Intel’s new mobile chips promise better performance and longer battery life, but they snub power users like me.

Well, 'tis true. Though if you think you're a power user because you have 80 tabs open, then we have another issue to examine, LOL. I have a friend who has compressed what ten years ago was a garage full of servers onto an i9 laptop running half a dozen virtual machines as often as not, impressive in its way, but really, isn't that something you can just do in the cloud?

Lunar Lake only really has to be powerful enough to reach the cloud, and even you concede 32gb ought to support all the browser tabs a user is likely (!?) to need. But it's a laptop, worried more about battery life than horsepower - my friend's i9 is going to run on wall power about 95% of the time that it's carrying that load.

I'm still a bit queasy too about locking the RAM at a fixed size in the CPU package though I can see the advantages if you can live in the limits. I'm more worried about a good docking station (or equivalent) so I can use it with a real keyboard and mouse and monitor(s) about 90% of the time.

 

[thestryker]

In the Meteor Lake gen, you can get an X1 Carbon (my personal fave laptop because I like the form factor, keyboard, etc) with 64GB. But, when the new model comes out with Lunar Lake in November, you wont' be able to get it with 64GB. So that's my impetus for writing this article.

Looks like Lenovo upsells this massively where 64GB is only available if you also choose the most expensive CPU option in your region. Most manufacturers who go 64GB only do it with SODIMMs which aren't viable for today's laptop CPUs if you care about integrated graphics so I felt like I had to look into it.

I'm curious what sort of realistic availability there is for laptops with 64GB LPDDR/X outside of Apple these days.

Intel could solve this problem by adding a 64GB SKU.

No they really can't unless memory manufacturers have spun up mythical 256Gb memory IC because there's no physical room for more than 2 packages.

However, I could see a good case for 24 GB (gaming handhelds allocating 8 GB of that to graphics), and if I'm not mistaken 48 GB could be done now in two similarly sized memory chips, offering a good boost over 32 GB.

LNL only has two DRAM packages and volume production only goes up to 144Gb. I'm not totally sure if that's the 8500+ memory LNL uses, but even if it was it'd only net 36GB so hardly worth it.

I do have to wonder, where are the LPCAMM laptops? It seems like those ought to be a huge fraxtion of the market today. (And while I'm asking, what about the laptops with haptic touchpads?)

This would absolutely solve the memory capacity situation for premium laptops. Chances are that this is like the DDR5-6400 problem (highest JEDEC DIMMs are 5600 still) on desktop where there isn't enough volume to widely implement.

 

[Jame5]

Not to mention that most AMD/Intel systems using DDR5 SO-DIMMs can actually support non binary amounts of ram. 96GB (2x48GB) kits are common, and tend to work extremely well.

 

[Giroro]

I have a friend who has compressed what ten years ago was a garage full of servers onto an i9 laptop running half a dozen virtual machines as often as not, impressive in its way, but really, isn't that something you can just do in the cloud?

No, I don't think you can own and operate local server hardware from the cloud.

 

[JeffreyP55]

Intel’s new mobile chips promise better performance and longer battery life, but they snub power users like me.

Why I won't buy an Intel Lunar Lake-powered laptop : Read more

Instead of moaning and groaning about a laptop(s) lacking the features you desire but many will use. ... Purchase what your needs are. Sounds like it may cost you some real money.

 

[Roy2001]

Ultra portable with 64GB RAM is overkill, period. If you need more than 32GB laptop, you should buy arrow lake H based laptop.

 

[baboma]

Cheapest price I found for LNL is Asus Vivobook S 14 (Q423 / S5406SA, Ultra 5, 16GB, 512GB SSD) for $950 at Bestbuy.

Acer Swift AI (SF14-51) is another model I'll be tracking. Costco carries the prior Swift Go (MTL) model for only $800, and was on sale for much less during last year's BF and this year's sales. The LNL model lists for $1200, but Acer MSRP are normally inflated, and street pricing is typically much lower. (Lenovo also does this.)

The higher MSRP notwithstanding, I'm banking on the Acer Swift model to sell lower during sales. If the '23 MTL model is a guide, Costco will likely get a more robust config (Ultra 7, 1TB SSD, maybe 32GB). Hoping I can pick one up for around $700-800 on sale.

I'll be looking for reviews of the above two, as well as setting price trackers for them.

I looked at Ryzen 300 models, and cheapest is Asus Vivobook S 14 (Rz 365, 24GB, 512GB SSD) for $1200. All indications are that Strix Point will stay high end (read: out of my price range), and Kracken will fill in for mainstream duty come next year.

My "budget" laptop choices now are MTL or any Ryzen w/ 780M on sale. I tend to stick to thin&light, and LNL looks to be a good step up from MTL. StrixP needs more power than thin&light can provide, and it's more expensive anyway. My gauge is that Kracken is only incremental improvement over Phoenix (780M) and can't match the latter on bang/buck.

 

[mac_angel]

yea, seems like a stupid reason. That's poor management on your part, not a fault of not enough RAM. Even other power users on here have said they run much more memory hungry apps fine; because they aren't being stupid with their use.

 

[baboma]

>So what's special about Lunar Lake that it received this hit piece?

THW needs clicks, and "I think XYZ sux" is always good bait for idle gossip. Also, the piece dovetails with AP's prior "AI sux" rants. It's fine. I picture AP as one of those grumpy "get off my lawn" curmudgeon types.

Old people tend to get short and persnickety. My mom is the same way.

 

[MoxNix]

80 Browser tabs open... Have you even looked at half of them in the last year?

 

[abufrejoval]

I thought the idea was that Apple computers were not considered "PCs." I guess that depends on how you interpret the term.

You might argue Apples were Personal Computers before there were PCs with the Apple ][.

That crucially had 8 expansion slots (mine all filled quickly) without which the IBM PC would have surely failed for lack of customizability, just like its slotless contemporary competitors like the Atari ST or Amiga 500.

Critically, when IBM attempted to wrestle back control over independent expansion via the PC/2 microchannel, they lost the lead in the game they helped to create.

But yeah, that's before Jobs decided Apples were appliances for non-programming "users" who preferred him to choose for them.

Too bad Microsoft is all about emulating the fruity cult, including its worst aberrations: their management is getting too young to remember historic mistakes.

PCs are about Personal Choice, not iPods with extras.

 

[USAFRet]

80 Browser tabs open... Have you even looked at half of them in the last year?

https://www.pcmag.com/news/firefox-power-user-keeps-7400-plus-browser-tabs-open-for-2-years

https://forums.tomshardware.com/threads/help-with-2000-dollar-pc-build.2838689/#post-18036162
"but right now I have 1200 google chrome tabs open, Guitar Pro, Itunes, Ableton and Premiere Pro"

 

[TheSecondPower]

Acer Swift AI (SF14-51) is another model I'll be tracking. Costco carries the prior Swift Go (MTL) model for only $800, and was on sale for much less during last year's BF and this year's sales.

The Asus Vivobook S has the Meteor Lake 155h for $750 at Walmart.

 

[usertests]

LNL only has two DRAM packages and volume production only goes up to 144Gb. I'm not totally sure if that's the 8500+ memory LNL uses, but even if it was it'd only net 36GB so hardly worth it.

24 GB LPDDR5X-8500 packages have been around, I think some smartphones already use them:

https://www.anandtech.com/show/2000...pddr5x8500-stacks-for-smartphones-pcs-and-hpc

At least one version of Panther Lake seems to be intended as a Lunar Lake successor, so it's something we could see within a year or two.

 

[biffzinker]

80 Browser tabs open... Have you even looked at half of them in the last year?

My thoughts when I read that.

 

[thestryker]

24 GB LPDDR5X-8500 packages have been around, I think some smartphones already use them:

https://www.anandtech.com/show/2000...pddr5x8500-stacks-for-smartphones-pcs-and-hpc

At least one version of Panther Lake seems to be intended as a Lunar Lake successor, so it's something we could see within a year or two.

Whats interesting about that is that they don't list any such product and they haven't appeared on the market outside of smartphones. They also don't show anything above 16Gb on LPDDR5X which leads me to believe these still aren't widely available. Their premiere LPDDR5T is only 16GB packages as well.

 

[cyrusfox]

It's like I said before, Intel is making a huge mistake with how they are marketing this processor.
They want a full range of processors to cover all performance use cases and price points, but that's not what they have... Like at all.
They don't have 9 processors from i5 up to i9. They have a single CPU with 2 memory configurations. It is trying to be the best at exactly 1 thing (efficiency) and they should only be comparing it to the 1 processor it was clearly designed to compete with: Apple M3.

32GB in an Intel powered "Whatever they want us to say instead of Ultrabook™" would look pretty good if it were properly being compared against the MacBook Air, which is limited to a maximum 24GB.

This CPU could have made a splash in the right market if it were appropriately branded as one single product that could stand on it's own: the ultimate in ultra portable. One of a kind (for PC) in it's own class of CPU. Make the branding simple and recognizable (like M3).

But instead, they decided to go with a confusing and boring table of indestinguishably similar SKUs, with their stupid 'V' suffix being the only element of new branding. Now it's doomed to be compared against full-fat Ryzen and Intel's own full performance product stack - where it stands no chance. They totally screwed this one up.

I can see what the engineers were trying to do with this product, but it's being completely squandered by marketing. If I were leading lunar lake dev I would have quit in protest... except the whole dev team was probably laid-off 2 months ago.

Lunar lake will stand alone when we look at battery life, and with apple and qualcomm showing strength here, it is a counter effective tactic, one I am looking to buy/preorder. I find 32GB more than adequate. I have 64gb in my work laptop as well as well as my desktop, I find I rarely do use more than 24gb. when doing photo work it all gets consumed (adobe takes all available resources....), but normal encoding or day to day they are speedy enough.

IS there going to be an Arrow Lake U line? if so perhaps that is why it has a V, if not, I am with you and don't understand the V marketing. Also Lunar should at top be 5 skus, not 9. But this is Intel... Less is more, Look at Apple where only different silicon gets a different name. But INtel is in $ trouble so they need to get revenue for every eligble part. Shoot why not an ultra 3 down the line using a cut down compute/io die or even worse iGPU (110V or 120V with 4 or 6 pipelines available).

 

[abufrejoval]

Ultra portable with 64GB RAM is overkill, period. If you need more than 32GB laptop, you should buy arrow lake H based laptop.

Well, why would one ever even want to carry around a computer anyway?

For serious work one should sit down at a proper desk with a proper terminal connected to the mainframe in the cellar!

...only...

The PC only ever got to where it is today, because it enabled people to do that one extra thing that simply wasn't ever done before, by adding a little extra of something... and others picking that up and making it a trend.

The ability to personalize the computer, do your thing, do new things, do them more conveniently, or do them on the road, in a plane, in space, or other places where nobody computed before, is what brought you these marvels of technology.

So if someone says I'd pay extra for 64 or 128GB of RAM, some vendors may answer to the call.
It's very much like some PC users deciding that they'd like to lift their personal computers off the desktop and take it with them.
Today desktop computers are a minority because of those few non-conformists.

I'm sure someone will also say that 2/4/8/16 TB of NVMe storage are overkill. And yes, with current WiFi that might take a while to fill. But Thunderbolt can do better.

These ultrabooks beat quite a few very large Sandy Bridge servers in every which dimension, on which I've done some very productive virtualization work. Except that those did 192GB of RAM more than 12 years ago.

Being able to work on functional testing and proofs of concept in the train or in the middle of nowhere is very nice to have.

Yes 64GB of RAM is overkill for the average user. But PC evolved mostly because many of their users were not average and because it supported them in their personal endeavor better than fruity cult appliances.

Hey I got 16GB of RAM in my smartphone. I'm pretty sure at least 8GB of that never got used. That's really a shame, but at perhaps €10 extra over an 8GB variant, I'd have never chosen less, if OnePlus had even considered offering that.

But that's mostly because running VMs on Android isn't made easy, otherwise I'd have gone for 64GB there, too: why ever not?

Unless they're charging fruity cult prices.

 

[sjkpublic]

Not every system config meets the needs of every user.

This doesn't meet yours.

But it does meet the needs of thousands of other people.

Silly person. It may meet the needs of thousands today. Next year they my find out it doesnt meet there needs AND THEY CANNOT UPGRADE. Fixed memory is great for Intel. Because a year or 2 from now when a person realizes they need more memory they have to go out and buy a brand new machine.