Question Will an i5-4690 bottleneck a GTX 1660 Super?

[username_available]

Current system
Mobo: Asus H97-PLUS
CPU : i5-4690 non K
GPU : GTX 660 OC
PSU : CoolerMaster G550M 550W
RAM : Corsair 2x8g @ 1600
Old LG monitor 1680x1050 @ 60

I am planning to upgrade soon (4 to 6 weeks) to a Palit GTX 1660 Super (https://www.skroutz.gr/s/20765320/P...Super-6GB-StormX-NE6166S018J9-161F.html#specs).

So the main question is, because my i5-4690 is fairly old, how much bottlenecked am i gonna get?
PC is used for occasional gaming. World of warships, Arma 3 and the upcoming Baldurs gate 3 along with Cyberpunk.

 

[Cere]

Current system
Mobo: Asus H97-PLUS
CPU : i5-4690 non K
GPU : GTX 660 OC
PSU : CoolerMaster G550M 550W
RAM : Corsair 2x8g @ 1600
Old LG monitor 1680x1050 @ 60

I am planning to upgrade soon (4 to 6 weeks) to a Palit GTX 1660 Super (https://www.skroutz.gr/s/20765320/P...Super-6GB-StormX-NE6166S018J9-161F.html#specs).

So the main question is, because my i5-4690 is fairly old, how much bottlenecked am i gonna get?
PC is used for occasional gaming. World of warships, Arma 3 and the upcoming Baldurs gate 3 along with Cyberpunk.

You shouldn't get much bottlenecking from it. Most games (especially the ones you listed) do not use the CPU much at all. They more depend on the GPU. If you can run the games now with that configuration, you should be fine just upgrading the GPU.

However the PSU does concern me a bit. You may want to upgrade that to at least a 650 when changing the GPU. the newer GPU may pull to much for it to handle. ^50 is almost a standard for gaming rigs these days. 500 is a bare minimum and may cause power issues and limit the GPU from performing at its top point. Just food for thought.

 

[gamenadez]

Nah 500 Isn't a bare minimum for GPU. You can even run GTX 1650 under 250Watts PSU.

The Graphic Manufacture only add 100 More Watt Usage on PSU Requirement as if there extra peripherals attach on your computer.

But GTX 1660 Can run fine even in 300 Watts

You can see GTX 1660 at 99% Load draw only 116.9W - So let say 120Watts..
100 Watts for CPU/RAM/SSD/USB/WIFI/NVME/HDD. So pretty much you wont even reach 250Watt Usage.
You will steal have 50 Watts Capacity left of PSU. So with 300-500 Watts PSU you are fine.. I have HTPC with 500W on it and RX 580 its been there for 2 years..

You can see it yourself.. With Kill-A-Watt-Meter even RTX 2080Ti maximum load is only 402 Watts. Anyway GTX 1660 Isn't even reaching 250 Watts

 

[Cere]

Nah 500 Isn't a bare minimum for GPU. You can even run GTX 1650 under 250Watts PSU.

The Graphic Manufacture only add 100 More Watt Usage on PSU Requirement as if there extra peripherals attach on your computer.

But GTX 1660 Can run fine even in 300 Watts

You can see GTX 1660 at 99% Load draw only 116.9W - So let say 120Watts..
100 Watts for CPU/RAM/SSD/USB/WIFI/NVME/HDD. So pretty much you wont even reach 250Watt Usage.
You will steal have 50 Watts Capacity left of PSU. So with 300-500 Watts PSU you are fine.. I have HTPC with 500W on it and RX 580 its been there for 2 years..

You can see it yourself.. With Kill-A-Watt-Meter even RTX 2080Ti maximum load is only 402 Watts. Anyway GTX 1660 Isn't even reaching 250 Watts

You can't just go by the GPU though. You have to look at all components, the CPU. GPU, Sound cards, MoBo, etc. 500 Watts running a GPU that says it needs 250Watts alone will kill a PSU. PSUs are not to run at max Watts. For example, the CPU pulls 100Watts, GPU pulls 250 Watts, that's 350 alone, then the MoBo, Keyboard, Mice, Fans, etc. By the time its all said and done, the whole system is maxing at 500Watts. this will bottleneck CPUs and GPUs as they lower their consumption to compensate thus causing your system to lose framerates.

 

[username_available]

I believe the 550w psu will be fine although i always have in mind that i might need to change it at some point! Thank you for pointing it out!
Both the 1660s and the 660 have a 450w psu as reccomended.
Also i remember when i was building the pc i found a watt calculator that totaled the W needs at 400something so i should still have a margin of at least 50-100w right?

 

[bfollett]

1660 Super is a 130 watt GPU. i5-4690 is 84 watt CPU. Even overclocked a 550 watt PSU is plenty unless you've got an awful lot else going on in the case.

 

[sizzling]

The latest AAA games can be too much for quad core/thread CPU’s, especially older ones. The game play can be poor regardless of gpu choice. I would not be surprised if Boulders Gate or Cyberpunk were too much for that cpu to run smoothly but you won’t know until they are released. My old second system has a 4670k with an overclock to 4.3GHz on all cores and it was struggling with several AAA games that have come out in the last couple of years.

 

[username_available]

Nah, nothing special in there.
So, i am going for the 1660s, thanks a lot for the opionions everyone!

 

[Cere]

I believe the 550w psu will be fine although i always have in mind that i might need to change it at some point! Thank you for pointing it out!
Both the 1660s and the 660 have a 450w psu as reccomended.
Also i remember when i was building the pc i found a watt calculator that totaled the W needs at 400something so i should still have a margin of at least 50-100w right?

Well the margin will change constantly. It's just good practice to give more room for the PSU. Wattage calculators only look at the total consumption needed to run the system. 550 will work, but if you compare the recommended power consumption of the PSU you'll see even the manufactures recommend less then what it can put out. Just something you should keep in mind when upgrading anything in a system.

 

[gamenadez]

You can't just go by the GPU though. You have to look at all components, the CPU. GPU, Sound cards, MoBo, etc. 500 Watts running a GPU that says it needs 250Watts alone will kill a PSU. PSUs are not to run at max Watts. For example, the CPU pulls 100Watts, GPU pulls 250 Watts, that's 350 alone, then the MoBo, Keyboard, Mice, Fans, etc. By the time its all said and done, the whole system is maxing at 500Watts. this will bottleneck CPUs and GPUs as they lower their consumption to compensate thus causing your system to lose framerates.

That not GPU Wattage alone. That Entire System Tested with Kill-Watt-Meter. The PC is Connected to Watt-Meter Outlet.

You can see on GPU-Z that GTX 1660 Only consume less than 120 Watts at 99% Usage

This Chart on Bottom contain entire PC Spec that run on i9 9900k OC to 4.7Ghz..You can see the List there of GTX 1660 Black or 1660 TI. Entire System only draw less than 250 Watts.

You can run GTX 2080 Ti on a 80+ GOLD 500W PSU and You will still have spare power tomshardware had that review.

Ive Seen benchmark youtube before RTX 2080TI with 500WATT PSU.

My Cousin also has old Corsair One PRO with i7-7700k, GTX 1080, 480GB NVME, 2 TB SSD, 32GB RAM...ITS PSU was Corsair 400WATTS PSU.

 

[Cere]

That not GPU Wattage alone. That Entire System Tested with Kill-Watt-Meter. The PC is Connected to Watt-Meter Outlet.

You can see on GPU-Z that GTX 1660 Only consume less than 120 Watts at 99% Usage

This Chart on Bottom contain entire PC Spec that run on i9 9900k OC to 4.7Ghz..You can see the List there of GTX 1660 Black or 1660 TI. Entire System only draw less than 250 Watts.

You can run GTX 2080 Ti on a 80+ GOLD 500W PSU and You will still have spare power tomshardware had that review.

Ive Seen benchmark youtube before RTX 2080TI with 500WATT PSU.

My Cousin also has old Corsair One PRO with i7-7700k, GTX 1080, 480GB NVME, 2 TB SSD, 32GB RAM...ITS PSU was Corsair 400WATTS PSU.

The software and all tests you are showing are actually only for the GPU. You would need to run separate software for the CPU and the Mother Board. Anything attached to the computer will also draw power. There is a good article regarding this very thing. They explain in depth that you want to bee around 40-50% of the PSU to be fully high efficiency. but not less the 50-80%. So if the manufacturer says 250Watts for the GPU, you need at least 600+ to be at the 50-80 range when the computer is at max load. Not just the GPU or CPU. In order to see what max load on all would be, you'd need to run programs for each component and then add the watts they each use. The easier bet though is to take what the manufacture says, add it up for each component, then multiply that number by 1.5-2 depending on how efficient and upgradable you want to be. But its a misconception that one program shows the total wattage a system uses or that one CPU/GPU is going to pull the same wattage as another of the same make and model. Every chipset is different, some will pull less others will pull more. The best bet is to go by the manufacture as they made the chipset and have tested it extensively.
https://www.pcworld.com/article/2025425/how-to-pick-the-best-pc-power-supply.html

 

[gamenadez]

The software and all tests you are showing are actually only for the GPU. You would need to run separate software for the CPU and the Mother Board. Anything attached to the computer will also draw power. There is a good article regarding this very thing. They explain in depth that you want to bee around 40-50% of the PSU to be fully high efficiency. but not less the 50-80%. So if the manufacturer says 250Watts for the GPU, you need at least 600+ to be at the 50-80 range when the computer is at max load. Not just the GPU or CPU. In order to see what max load on all would be, you'd need to run programs for each component and then add the watts they each use. The easier bet though is to take what the manufacture says, add it up for each component, then multiply that number by 1.5-2 depending on how efficient and upgradable you want to be. But its a misconception that one program shows the total wattage a system uses or that one CPU/GPU is going to pull the same wattage as another of the same make and model. Every chipset is different, some will pull less others will pull more. The best bet is to go by the manufacture as they made the chipset and have tested it extensively.
https://www.pcworld.com/article/2025425/how-to-pick-the-best-pc-power-supply.html

NO Its not only GPU. Its Entire System. I think you dont understand Kill-A-Watt-Meter
https://www.amazon.com/P3-P4400-Electricity-Usage-Monitor/dp/B00009MDBU

You Plug that on OUTLET. Then You plug your Computer Desktop on that Meter.. It will tell you how much "TOTAL" the wattage it consumed. The Chart I show you is not the GPU Usage alone.. How exactly a GTX 1660 produce a 207 Watt Usage?

How many watts does a GTX 1660 use?
120 watts
As NVIDIA points out, the power consumption (TDP) of the GTX 1660 is only 120 watts


"So if the manufacturer says 250Watts for the GPU, you need at least 600+"

WoW you are the first one I ever heard to say that. GO TELL CORSAIR. So You tell me how this System can run in 400 Watts. GTX 1080 consume more power than GTX 1660. Same thing for i7-7700k to i5 4690

 

[Cere]

NO Its not only GPU. Its Entire System. I think you dont understand Kill-A-Watt-Meter
https://www.amazon.com/P3-P4400-Electricity-Usage-Monitor/dp/B00009MDBU

You Plug that on OUTLET. Then You plug your Computer Desktop on that Meter.. It will tell you how much "TOTAL" the wattage it consumed. The Chart I show you is not the GPU Usage alone.. How exactly a GTX 1660 produce a 207 Watt Usage?

How many watts does a GTX 1660 use?
120 watts
As NVIDIA points out, the power consumption (TDP) of the GTX 1660 is only 120 watts


"So if the manufacturer says 250Watts for the GPU, you need at least 600+"

WoW you are the first one I ever heard to say that. GO TELL CORSAIR. So You tell me how this System can run in 400 Watts. GTX 1080 consume more power than GTX 1660. Same thing for i7-7700k to i5 4690

Just that CPU is recommended to have 174W. the GPU would need 180W. Already that 400W PSU is going to be near maxed out. They can get away with it by throttling back the CPU and GPU in the Bios. you try overclocking even slightly and the system will crash. This is why you can not go by prebuilt systems. They are meant to make money off them, so they will not give any headroom as recommended, or upgradeability, or even be cost effective. They want to make money, so they go with lowest possible that will last past the 1 year warranty.
https://www.geforce.com/hardware/desktop-gpus/geforce-gtx-1080/specifications
As I said earlier, you go by what the manufacture recommends, add all devices up, then multiply it by 1.5-2. That will give you what the manufacture recommends.

 

[Cere]

NO Its not only GPU. Its Entire System. I think you dont understand Kill-A-Watt-Meter
https://www.amazon.com/P3-P4400-Electricity-Usage-Monitor/dp/B00009MDBU

You Plug that on OUTLET. Then You plug your Computer Desktop on that Meter.. It will tell you how much "TOTAL" the wattage it consumed. The Chart I show you is not the GPU Usage alone.. How exactly a GTX 1660 produce a 207 Watt Usage?

How many watts does a GTX 1660 use?
120 watts
As NVIDIA points out, the power consumption (TDP) of the GTX 1660 is only 120 watts


"So if the manufacturer says 250Watts for the GPU, you need at least 600+"

WoW you are the first one I ever heard to say that. GO TELL CORSAIR. So You tell me how this System can run in 400 Watts. GTX 1080 consume more power than GTX 1660. Same thing for i7-7700k to i5 4690

As far as the 1660, NVIDIA Recommends at least a 450W PSU. This is the bare minimum that they suggest. That is before you account in the CPU and other devices attached or installed in the system. Its never a good idea to go below what the manufacture recommends. So, the GPU requires 120W, CPU requires 84W, the average 7200 rpm drive requires 25W, add 2.5W per usb port, 1.8W for fan, 50-300W for a PCI slot, 15W per RAM stick, etc. I mean if you filled every slot of the mother board up (highly unlikely), you would peak around 500-600W. This is why it is always recommended to go 1.5-2 times what your system pulls. It allows for upgrading later without needing to constantly buy a new PSU. It also allows for overclocking if you want to try that. The last thing you want is a system that is only getting enough power to run, it burns PSUs up quickly.

GEFORCE GTX 16-SERIE

16: Der Neue Supercharger

www.nvidia.com

Just a recap, look at the PSU recommended power load is (usually 40-80%, but never 100%). Look at what the manufacturer says is the power consumption for each item in your computer. Add those number and find a PSU that keeps the Watt range of the manufacture's power requirements, within the recommend load range for the PSU. If you want upgradability, then multiply the total manufacture's recommended Watt requirements by 1.5-2.

 

[gamenadez]

I dont know where you get your calculation

Wha
MOBO: They consume Power Based on what SLOT you use below.
GPU: GTX 1660 120W
CPU: i5 4690 84W
RAM: 8GB Module uses 3Watts. (6 Watts Total)
SSD: 3 Watts
HDD: 9 Watts
Speaker: USB Speaker (Example of Amazon Speaker uses 1.5 Watts per speaker). OR You can use your Monitor/TV Speaker.
Mice and Keyboard: A 500 mA = 0.5 Watts/Volts...But USB Mouse and USB Keyboard uses less than 500 mA.

-----------------------------------------------
Pretty Much You are in 227 Watts. But you are not going to use 227 Watts, CPU and GPU Power is based on % Usage.

You are not Benchmarking CPU/GPU so it will not use 120 Watts and 84 Watts at maximum wattage when you are playing games..

Seriously I dont even know where you get that 15 Watts Ram Stick and 25 Watts for HDD.


I Guess every Youtube PC Builder are FAKE then..if we go on by your calculation. Ive seen a lot of youtuber putting GTX 1660TI on Optiplex with 450 Watts.

His Build pretty much the same as this..

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=69O5vin6PH4

 

[gamenadez]

To Prove you wrong.

This guy build Ryzen 9 3950X 16-Core with GTX 2080 TI on 450 Watts PSU. He had it running Benchmark for 3.5hours before it shutdown. That bench-marking, different from actual gaming..playing games give you lower usage consumption than benchmark. It means You could play games on this 450 Watts since playing game does not use 100% CPU/GPU Usage.

So yah a 550 Watts has a lot of power to run a GTX 1660 and i5 4690.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg6pz7YTxyA

 

[Cere]

To Prove you wrong.

This guy build Ryzen 9 3950X 16-Core with GTX 2080 TI on 450 Watts PSU. He had it running Benchmark for 3.5hours before it shutdown. That bench-marking, different from actual gaming..playing games give you lower usage consumption than benchmark. It means You could play games on this 450 Watts since playing game does not use 100% CPU/GPU Usage.

So yah a 550 Watts has a lot of power to run a GTX 1660 and i5 4690.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg6pz7YTxyA

The point of having a higher Watt PSU is not just to ensure the PSU when benchmarked is not overwhelmed. When you buy a PSU that is low and only enough to power the rig you build, you make it harder to upgrade in the future. Every time a new chipset comes out, there’s a big chance it will use more power.
The PSU, if used correctly, will way outlive all components in a rig. My question to you is, why would you buy a PSU that will hinder upgrading down the line? You should never do this unless you want to just always buy a new one anytime you want to upgrade.
As far as the system usage for Watts goes, you always and I mean always go by what the manufacturer recommends as the lowest PSU. If you don’t, it would be the same as switching your cars battery to a lower battery against what the manufacturer recommends. The logic is very flawed to assume anyone knows better then the actual manufacturer of any product. Just the GPU manufacturer in this case recommends 550 Watts, now that is the very minimum you should use. Adding another 100Watts just enables the user to be upgrade ready in case they want to buy a higher GPU or add other devices. Telling a user to use less then recommended by the manufacturer ensures that if any performance issues exist, the manufacturer would then point to the PSU and say it should be at or higher then what they told you was recommended.

 

[gamenadez]

The point of having a higher Watt PSU is not just to ensure the PSU when benchmarked is not overwhelmed. When you buy a PSU that is low and only enough to power the rig you build, you make it harder to upgrade in the future. Every time a new chipset comes out, there’s a big chance it will use more power.
The PSU, if used correctly, will way outlive all components in a rig. My question to you is, why would you buy a PSU that will hinder upgrading down the line? You should never do this unless you want to just always buy a new one anytime you want to upgrade.
As far as the system usage for Watts goes, you always and I mean always go by what the manufacturer recommends as the lowest PSU. If you don’t, it would be the same as switching your cars battery to a lower battery against what the manufacturer recommends. The logic is very flawed to assume anyone knows better then the actual manufacturer of any product. Just the GPU manufacturer in this case recommends 550 Watts, now that is the very minimum you should use. Adding another 100Watts just enables the user to be upgrade ready in case they want to buy a higher GPU or add other devices. Telling a user to use less then recommended by the manufacturer ensures that if any performance issues exist, the manufacturer would then point to the PSU and say it should be at or higher then what they told you was recommended.

You see Having High Watt PSU does not mean it insure you for upgrade in the future. PSU Does have life span on its own. Having different Watts still have same lifespan specially its fan.. So it does not matter whether you have 550 Watts or 1000 Watts PSU..Would you spend 150$ on 1000Watts PSU or Rather Spend on 550 Watts on 50-75$ PSU. You could still save a lot of money and spend the remaining on PSU Fan replacement, we all known as a gamer PSU Fan no matter how much high money you spend on higher PSU watts. after 1-2 years of gaming you can start hearing noise on your psu fan.

550 Watts is enough to run a GTX 1080Ti Corsair One Pro uses that PSU and still have enough 150 watts left, since gaming on Corsair One Pro it only consume 415-420 Watts on Max Settings 1440p resolution.

 

[Cere]

You see Having High Watt PSU does not mean it insure you for upgrade in the future. PSU Does have life span on its own. Having different Watts still have same lifespan specially its fan.. So it does not matter whether you have 550 Watts or 1000 Watts PSU..Would you spend 150$ on 1000Watts PSU or Rather Spend on 550 Watts on 50-75$ PSU.

550 Watts is enough to run a GTX 1080Ti Corsair One Pro uses that PSU and still have enough 150 watts left, since gaming on Corsair One Pro it only consume 415-420 Watts on Max Settings 1440p resolution.

ok, so the 1660 is lower then 10 series right now. If the user wants to buy and use a 20 series down the road, they recommend at least a 650 Watt power supply. Again, it’s about upgradability. He would be stuck with a 16 or 10 series for the whole live of the computer. Unless they would want to have a GPU that throttles back and does not give all that their money paid for originally. And no where am I telling anyone to buy a 1000 Watt power supply. The bare minimum anyone should buy right now should match the bare minimum of current products so they can upgrade later to those if they desire. And yes PSUs will outlive your components (unless you’re only talking their lifespan), as you will replace your components down the road to keep up with games as they demand more and more graphics and hardware.

Grafikkarten und Notebooks der GeForce RTX 20er-Serie

Echtzeit-Raytracing, KI-gestütztes DLSS 2.0 und programmierbares Shading.

www.nvidia.com

 

[gamenadez]

ok, so the 1660 is lower then 10 series right now. If the user wants to buy and use a 20 series down the road, they recommend at least a 650 Watt power supply. Again, it’s about upgradability.

Grafikkarten und Notebooks der GeForce RTX 20er-Serie

Echtzeit-Raytracing, KI-gestütztes DLSS 2.0 und programmierbares Shading.

www.nvidia.com

He Has "CoolerMaster G550M 550W" that PSU can power up a GTX 2070.

I dont think the OP will buy an RTX 2080 Super for his old i5 4690 CPU/DD3 RAM.

 

[Cere]

He Has "CoolerMaster G550M 550W" that PSU can power up a GTX 2070.

I dont think the OP will buy an RTX 2080 Super for his old i5 4690 CPU/DD3 RAM.

You never truly know and should never assume someone wouldn’t. Fact is that i5 will still work for many games and the 2080Super is top gaming right now. Many gamers buy newer GPUs and play on old CPUs all the time. The GPU is more important then the CPU when it comes to gaming. To buy a GPU and run the CPU until it can no longer handle games is what many people do. Only a select few will buy the CPU, Motherboard, Ram, PSU, and GPU at the same time. The GPU is usually always first, then the CPU and Motherboard. However, if it wasn’t planned ahead, a new PSU would need to be bought before upgrading the GPU.
By your logic, someone would buy a card in series though. I don’t know anyone who buys outdated cards in series. Many will buy then as they come out or they will skip generations in order to save money. And being that the user would be getting a 16 series, that is basically 3 series behind at this point (yes it’s a newer card, but it’s an upgrade going from 16 series to 10 series). So I’m certain when they would want to upgrade, they would want to upgrade to a 20 series or an even newer series if they are out at that time.
Point is that a PSU will last through a few upgrades and should be treated as such. If the 2080 Super recommends 650, why not spend the $10-20 extra for 100 more watts to ensure you can upgrade a system down the road to what many are using today? It’s just logical.

 

[EndEffeKt_24]

Well, that escalated quickly

In my opinion you are totally fine with a 550w psu. System power will peak in the ballpark of 300w.

 

[gamenadez]

You never truly know and should never assume someone wouldn’t. Fact is that i5 will still work for many games and the 2080Super is top gaming right now. Many gamers buy newer GPUs and play on old CPUs all the time. The GPU is more important then the CPU when it comes to gaming. To buy a GPU and run the CPU until it can no longer handle games is what many people do. Only a select few will buy the CPU, Motherboard, Ram, PSU, and GPU at the same time. The GPU is usually always first, then the CPU and Motherboard. However, if it wasn’t planned ahead, a new PSU would need to be bought before upgrading the GPU.
By your logic, someone would buy a card in series though. I don’t know anyone who buys outdated cards in series. Many will buy then as they come out or they will skip generations in order to save money. And being that the user would be getting a 16 series, that is basically 3 series behind at this point (yes it’s a newer card, but it’s an upgrade going from 16 series to 10 series). So I’m certain when they would want to upgrade, they would want to upgrade to a 20 series or an even newer series if they are out at that time.
Point is that a PSU will last through a few upgrades and should be treated as such. If the 2080 Super recommends 650, why not spend the $10-20 extra for 100 more watts to ensure you can upgrade a system down the road to what many are using today? It’s just logical.

Im sorry but the op will not spend 750$ + for RTX 2080 Super and put it on his old computer.. Would you buy a RTX 2080 Super and you only play on it once a week? I dont like spending money that much im not rich :O

PC is used for occasional gaming. World of warships, Arma 3 and the upcoming Baldurs gate 3 along with Cyberpunk.

 

[username_available]

Truth to be told, i am never gonna buy anything latest gen since i am not willing to financially support it.
If my gtx 660 was not dying i would not even consider an upgrade to be honest.

Think that my first pc was bought 2005- or 6 for 100e. Had some dual core amd cpu that i forget. Strapped in it a cheap 9500GT that i bought for 80e and 4g ddr ram for 20 and kept it untill 6 years ago i believe.

Then upgraded to the system mentioned in the OP.

Next upgrade will probably be in 2-3 years when the cpu wont be able to handle my casual gaming needs and i ll probably still keep the 1660s until it wont be able to run any game above 45fps no matter the graphic quality.

I picked up a lot of new stuff i did not know and will definitely consider on my next build, so keep up the forum wars and thank you again!