Will torrent websites ruin PC gaming?

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seanpull

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Sep 7, 2012
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I feel discouraged when I go to a torrent website, and I see 15,000 seeders, and 12,000 leechers on Borderlands 2. And that's just one site, at one time. Now my point is that game developers may soon find it unprofitable to make PC games, or at least, less profitable than making Xbox games because of how many copies are stolen. Let's assume 300,000 copies of Borderlands 2 were torrented. That's gotta be at least 10% of their sales? Maybe less. But still a significant amount. And, although it's possible to torrent Xbox games, it's much more difficult. I just want to hear what you guys think.
 
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Literally every word of both paragraphs boils down to your justification for downplaying digital theft. I could empathize with your point about damaged game discs if this was 1998 and anyone was buying physical copies, but this is 2012 and the overwhelming majority of illegal downloading is just plain stealing.

But to give you a very specific and clear answer since I get the impression that is all you're going to understand, no I didn't conclude that piracy isn't a real issue. That probably has something to do with being old enough to have to earn my own end's meat, much like everyone toiling away developing games that will eventually be stolen on the internet by a bunch of college freshmen.
 
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Just to preempt whatever response is coming by my attacking your overarching philosophy as reasonably juvenile, you have to understand one thing. Playing video games isn't your right. It's your privilege to do so, if you're in a position to be able to do so.

As a consumer, when a product or service doesn't meet with your desired expectations, you have the right to refuse it. You don't have the right to alter it and then thieve the core content sans that which you found unacceptable (the DRM). If you think any differently then you have an entitlement issue, and could probably use a different forum all together.
 
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The amount of pirated games is a non ambiguous stat. They can't say how many of those pirated copies are lost sales. No one can know that answer, so they give you the stat of "potential lost sales". They aren't lying and they aren't exaggerating, and it would be foolish if they did. They lose investors when they show that the product they want develop is going to be pirated. It is in their best interest to hide those numbers.

Pirating, no matter how you justify it, is wrong and you know it.

In the end, we are the ones who get hurt. They stop developing for us. If there was good money in it, you would think they'd target the PC gamer. After all, they want our money, right?
 
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The hot button platform right now is mobile and not PC. I think the slump in PC games is simply a normal market fluctuation to adopt a new market. It will shift back and never go away entirely.

casualcolors, I'm a Senior Software Engineer and have been writing software for a decade. I know what it is to code for weeks and months on end and I certainly know what it is to earn my own money. I have a certain expectation out of the market and software specifically. If you choose to call that an entitlement issue then so be it. However, I believe in a consumer oriented market. If I buy your product, it's mine. End of story. If I want to take that product and adapt it to a different platform, take it apart and modify it then I'm going to do so. I don't believe you're entitled to a new sale just because I have multiple platforms. There are reasons there are specific laws restricting the use of certain items, mostly the usage of certain cleaners to help prevent people from building bombs, for example. Software is not included in those laws. The concept of a EULA for games is an industry created concept weakly based on contract law and are rarely enforced in courts.

bystander, it's not always wrong and I'm very sure of that stance. There are completely legitimate reasons to download an ISO. I also don't know about you but I don't do stream so to push the issue aside simply because we live in a time where there are all-streaming services is simply trying to cheap out on the issue. A significant portion of sales are physical acquisitions of product. I am one of those people who buy discs. This is mostly to save on bandwidth and to be able to get to play sooner by not having to download gigs of data. This is without exception. Even MMOs I play I go out and buy the box so all I need to worry about are updates before I can play. It's actually a very practical way of doing things.

It also makes no sense for Ubisoft to declare the 95% rate then to actually relax their DRM. According to your logic the investors should be up in arms and they will be losing money like a siv and should be closed down soon. No global corporation would choose that course of action unless the originating statement was not accurate or there was a serious change in leadership behind that statement.
 
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Clearly you never were taught that stealing is bad, so I'll mark you as a lost cause. Though I suspect you started pirating before you considered what you were doing, and now are justifying your actions so you can have free games. It's not like they don't tell you the rules. If you want to do something against the EULA, don't buy or pirate the game.
 
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Quite the contrary. I have a deep respect for property. However, once I purchase something I will do with it what I choose. Part of that respect is the expectation of respect. I respect your things and you mine. What I do with mine is my choice, not yours or someone else's.
 
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I do, because it is. You seem to misunderstand the right of the consumer in a consumer driven economy. It's the right to choose whether to purchase, not the right to determine on what terms they will experience a product or service and manifest that experience for themselves. This in regard to piracy obviously, since that's what we're talking about.
 
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If you weren't screwed as soon as you made the purchase I could probably be more flexible on my stance. However, in order to read the EULA you need to buy the thing (out of money), open the packaging (can't return it), and proceed to do the installation. At that point your only option is to mail it back to the company who has absolutely zero reason to refund your money as it's an open product. The mere statement on the box letting you know you need to agree to a eula is wholly insufficient and is one of the main reasons they often get thrown out in court.
 
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The EULA only screws the customer when the customer is too stupid to contact a consumer group and find out that the EULA has no legal bearing and doesn't provide the publisher any ground to stand on in the case of a refund.

I have about as much sympathy for stupid people as I do for thieves, to be honest.
 
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So if you don't want to spend potentially months contacting consumer bureaus and either the store or publisher depending on response times just to get a refund then you're a stupid consumer? Ballsy claim, sir. Also, that's a pretty stupid claim.

Also, if the EULA has no legal bearing then neither do the provisions barring copying, redistribution, reverse engineering etc. I do believe you just screwed your whole argument unless you were arguing entirely on moral grounds. If that's the case then morality is often subjective and "f you" for trying to impose yours on others. Peace.
 
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EULA as it applies to usurping the consumer's right to refund has no real ground. That was what I was saying (clearly) but since you all the air went out of your posting with the bit I quoted above. The problem seems to be less a matter of legalese and more an issue of your wandering moral compass.

Also lol @ adopting the moral high ground on the basis of "how dare you tell me it's not right to steal". What a dirtbag.
 
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That is not the case in the U.S.
 
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just thought i would add to some earlier posts of "I think there is nothing wrong with downloading a game for another system since i bought it for this one".

there still is something wrong with that and it still is illegal, you did not buy the right to use that companies software on that system they developed it for
 
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i know it is illegal but it isn't immoral and there is no reason why i should have to pay for the same game twice. If i bought GTA 4 for PS3, why should i have to pay for it again if i want to play it on PC? When I originally bought the game, I made my contribution to the company to pay for development, marketing, etc. By me playing it on PC, I am not costing the company anything, as it was being made for PC whether or not I got it. There's nothing else where you pay for the same thing twice, just because it's a different platform. e.g. if you bought a DVD and played it on DVD player, you wouldn't expect to pay again to use the same DVD on a PC or games console instead, so why are games any different?
 
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Actually, yes there is. Regardless of the perception and distaste for console porting or PC-porting, it still takes development time and costs money to do. Just because you bought a product for one platform that shares a name with a similar product for another platform, they are not in fact the same and the one wasn't simply manifested into existence in lieu of the other. They both took time to make.

I think that your view is bolstered by a fairly broad misunderstanding of the production process and perhaps a legitimate misunderstanding of general economics. I don't mean this as a dig, but as a very legitimate observation. It's not to say that you're a stupid person, perhaps just misinformed in this regard.
 
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You are correct that it does take time to do ports. However, proportionally speaking the port process is significantly smaller than writing, acting, development (the initial development process for the first platform), post-production and marketing.

Purchases on one platform are largely fueled by the overall marketing machine. The game displayed in advertising is the same and any platform-specific info is relegated to a symbol on the last few frames of a commercial. It doesn't take an entirely new campaign to get that product in front of someone. If there's any marketing going on in today's market with multi-channel marketing being status quo, the people who are going to make a purchase have already decided to do so. The port process is largely automated with most time being spent on performance tweaks.

However, each and every sold copy is meant to subsidize that entire production effort. If I've already contributed to that effort I should not have to pay for subsidizing the entire effort again when all I should be paying for is the effort of making the port, which I have yet to see any publisher do. I think that's the immorality jcb94 was talking about: by forcing people to buy new copies from platform to platform of the same game at full price. If I had the option to supply a serial for one platform and simply pay a "platform fee" for a different platform I would be all over it. But, I will not pay twice for the same effort. That is throwing money away. No business would do it nor should I.

For me, at least, this plays into my mention of it being a service issue. If there was the correct option to pay and that option were reasonably priced I would pursue that option. But, there's not so I'm left to my own means to gain the same effect.
 
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Unfortunately this long justification for stealing is a little less impressive when you're talking about your need to own another copy of a game, for a different console. I hate to make light of it, but first world problems.

This is why people don't feel bad when someone is (rightly) caught and punished.

If you don't feel like subsidizing the entire team's effort twice-over, you have the simple option of not buying the product twice. You don't have the option of buying the product once and then stealing another copy of it. You're exhibiting a sophomoric distaste for the concept of the profit margin, but not crusading a cause that the rest of the grown-up world is going to get behind. Simple fact is that it's theft, and for many people theft is more distasteful than some violent crimes. People just don't like petty thieves. I certainly don't.
 
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So an explanation has a certain length requirement to be credible? Good to know. We simply just see it differently which is fine. But I wholeheartedly agree: first world problems.

Question though: did you ever convert a CD to tape or vice versa? VHS to DVD? Record a TV show onto VHS or a radio program or ever have people over to watch a sporting event? In each case I could argue that you stole revenue from the company behind those products and were performing petty crimes no different from downloading a game to simply get to play on a different platform. I see no difference.
 
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Yes, but as i already said, the game would have been made for PC regardless of whether i bought it. Therefore, by buying 1 legitimate disc copy of the game and torrenting 1 copy of the game, I have cost the company no more than the person who just buys the 1 disc copy. Torrenting isn't like stealing a physical copy. If you stole a physical copy, you would be stealing a game case, a disc and manual, all of which cost the company money to print and produce. If you torrent there is no cost.
How can you justify paying for an identical product twice, when the costs to the company are no higher than if you had paid once?

Also, on a slightly different point, if you have a problem me paying once for one game but using it on 2 platforms, what do you think about other scenarios where a person can buy 1 copy (e.g. for PS3) and then play that copy on as many PS3 as he wants without paying for it again? Another scenario is where a game is bought for a household and several people share 1 game that was just paid for once. Shouldn't they each have to pay to use it?
 
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I see no convoluted answer in my post. Simply one that walks you through a line of thinking. It has paragraphs and organized structure and doesn't talk in cricles. Also, I see you ignored my questions. Kindly answer them, please.
 
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No, I've never had any reason to copy from VHS to CD or vice versa. Also your analogy isn't proper. More appropriate would be asking me what I thought about copying from VHS to Beta to avoid copyguard. Which is also wrong, if you were wondering. You're glossing over the more important issue of where did that copy that you're pirating come from.
 
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To your first paragraph, it's a moral and legal argument. Morally, if you want the service that a person or company has designed in a specific way, it's up to you to determine if it's worth the cost to obtain it. Circumventing their design principle and accessing duplicate copies outside the convent of the creating body's wishes isn't simply morally wrong, it's also legally wrong and easily prosecuted. I hate to break it to you but your line of thought is neither original nor provocative. No one will be waking up the District Attorney to try your case, if you get my meaning.

To your 1 line sentence, it's simple. You're morally in the wrong no matter what angle you choose to take. You'd garner more sympathy if you were a starving man begging for a loaf of bread, but in reality you're an entitled video game player trying to downplay the seriousness of video game production costs while maintaining the (obvious) position that the game is still important enough to you that you want it every which way you can have it. You just don't want the associated cost of doing so. That's called wanting to have your cake and eat it too. It's something you grow out of with helpful guidance of responsible parents.

To your last short paragraph, my answer is simple. If Sony publishes a product that they wish to be used in the described manner and you use it in said manner, there is no fault. It's by their own design and they've made the initial investment in its creation. It's their right to afford you whatever flexibility they see fit. If however, you circumvent their design to achieve your goal of proliferated use, then you are in the wrong. If Sony publishes a product that they think should have to be purchased for each individual machine, while distasteful it's also their right to have that expectation. It's your right to simply not buy the product at all, and send the clear message that you are not interested in that design philosophy. Anything beyond that puts you squarely in the wrong, both morally and again legally.

Hopefully all of that makes a fair amount of sense to you. It's by the moderators' own generosity that this conversation is going on long enough to have that explained to you. Usually these threads are canned within the first page of piracy apologist rhetoric.
 
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Where the copy came from is likely someone bought the game, made an ISO and started seeding. I suppose it's possible, though improbable, some sort of hacking or physical theft occurred in order to procure the ISO or some disgruntled employee posted it.

In any case, what I've been talking about is no different than copying between VHS, CD, DVD, etc as you've already bought a copy of what you're copying. Any time a new format comes out someone has to make them and often retouch them in order to adapt to the new format so any such copying is a direct lost opportunity for revenues. Yet the only really touchy area I really see is PC game ISOs. Do you have an issue with such copying?

I will assume though that you've invited people over for sporting events, perhaps even pay-per-view ones, since you avoided that. In these cases you've denied those companies revenues especially in the case of the latter, you vile vile human being.
 
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