Windows 8.1 May Cause Mouse Lag in Some Games

[qlum]

This shit is the reason why I am still on 8.0 and not on 8.1. The only reason I am using windows is because gaming demands it so games better work well on windows, and I rather not risk dpi issues on games not smart enough to support raw mouse input.

 

[virtualban]

The strange thumbs-ups and downs in this article, and some suspicious comments, remind me of that article where M$ was caught red-handed paying a third party firm to troll comments and ratings, pretending to be enthusiasts. Not saying it is the case. Just saying that once caught in this, everything else will smell.

 

[w8gaming]

I have machines running OS ranging from XP to Windows 8 to run games. Each iteration of OS always broke some games, and I am hestitated to convert my Windows 8 to 8.1 just for this reason. For gaming purpose, there is no reason I need 8.1 at the moment so the upgrade will just have to wait longer. Too bad my Win9x machine has broken down so some games are lost forever if it cannot be run in an emulator. Eventually all older machines break down, hopefully someone can build a good Win9x and XP emulator in the future that works well with games.

 

[rokit]

@danwat1234
Oh my... Are you serius? MS STILL has those limitations? I thought after XP/2003 they have it better, didn't use it but damn. It still sucks. 2013, 2014 soon and MS is still outdated

 

[Jonjolt]

Doesn't TF2 and LFD2 have an option for RAW input?

 

[ninjustin]

I'm running 8.1 and haven't seen an issue. The only games I've been playing for the past week are dota and Far Cry 3 though.

I do have a driver error with my Logitech g13 but it doesn't seem to actually affect usage.

 

[belardo]

And anyone who considers themselves a computer enthusiast would be able to evolve to use 8/8.1 without any issues as that's the name of the game, change.

If people expected Windows to stay looking like 7 for ever, they haven't been doing this long enough.

So it may be that certain hardware needs drivers updated or maybe MS can fix it on their end.

And anyone who considers themselves a computer enthusiast would be able to evolve to use LinuxMint without any issues as that's the name of the game, change.
(There, fixed it for you) After all, if my wife - who knows nothing about computers, is able to do her work with Linux on her notebook (I murdered Win8 on it before I installed the all ways free Linux), what is your excuse? Oh... yeah games and MS-Office. She doesn't play PC games and MS-Office isn't required so it works fine. (My main PC is Windows7)

No... I expect the next version of Windows to NOT look like Windows 2.0! (Use a handy dandy tool called Google Image search) Microsoft's own promotion of 8.1 has them wetting their panties for the ability to run 3 metro apps side on the same screen! OMfG!!! What would they think of next?!

I'm surprised this problem was NOT called during beta. Unless MS changed the mouse API at the last moment and didn't bother to test nor let the mouse hardware companies know about it. Otherwise, Logictech and others would have had months to update their drivers... which appears, didn't happen.

Seriously, Win8 offers so little over 7... most Win8 "lovers" claim to rarely ever use Metro... er, okay... wasn't that the selling point of Win8? Its THERE on the box, in your face. Ooooh faster boot times! Big deal! (A) Linux boots up just as fast without a hybrid-hibernation-boot process (B) any SSD installed Win7 PC will wake up faster than anything else... My Desktop rarely ever shuts-down. Even its DVD software will wake up the computer, record then go back to sleep. Windows 8 is so great, that PC sales is about 50% from last year... and here is a little fun fact... Windows7 installs are still CLIMBING! XP is still at 38% marketshare vs. W8's 8%.

How do we know Win8 sucks balls? When Win7 was released to the public, Vista boxes and discs/etc disappeared within a few days. Vista's market share peaked at 24% and its been downhill since. Here we are today, Win7 installs have gone up 6~7% since W8's debut... ouch. If consumer PCs were on the shelves with Win7 sitting next to W8 models... W8 would be at 1~2% marketshare. And of course, the large number of VPs and a certain Steve Ballmer being FIRED is a big indicator and was expected MONTHS before Win8 was unleashed to the public.

PS: yeah, I liked the return of the UP button on Explorer, the new Task Manager is awesome (I give it a 10) and the file-copy/move window is slick... but its not worth $150. The UP button can be added to Win7's Explorer (its kinda ugly) and TeraCopy is a free File-Copy/move Window that is far more powerful than Win8's (but no cool graph) and Task Manager is not something that people use constantly.

 

[Ryan Klug]

I have Windows 8.1 Preview and a Logitech M510 mouse. Mouse lag in games and the DESKTOP is something furious. I have to push my mouse extra distance to get it across the screen. I have a KVM switch connected to an older computer running Windows 7 and have no problems there. Even when I connect the mouse's wireless receiver directly to the Win 8.1 box, I have the same lagging problem. I even downloaded Logitech's SetPoint software, but it didn't help.

 

[stevejnb]

Seriously, Win8 offers so little over 7... most Win8 "lovers" claim to rarely ever use Metro... er, okay... wasn't that the selling point of Win8? Its THERE on the box, in your face. Ooooh faster boot times! Big deal! (A) Linux boots up just as fast without a hybrid-hibernation-boot process (B) any SSD installed Win7 PC will wake up faster than anything else... My Desktop rarely ever shuts-down. Even its DVD software will wake up the computer, record then go back to sleep. Windows 8 is so great, that PC sales is about 50% from last year... and here is a little fun fact... Windows7 installs are still CLIMBING! XP is still at 38% marketshare vs. W8's 8%.

How do we know Win8 sucks balls? When Win7 was released to the public, Vista boxes and discs/etc disappeared within a few days. Vista's market share peaked at 24% and its been downhill since. Here we are today, Win7 installs have gone up 6~7% since W8's debut... ouch. If consumer PCs were on the shelves with Win7 sitting next to W8 models... W8 would be at 1~2% marketshare. And of course, the large number of VPs and a certain Steve Ballmer being FIRED is a big indicator and was expected MONTHS before Win8 was unleashed to the public.

You know, I can understand a lot of people not liking Windows 8. Simply put, if you aren't interested in a touch interface or an OS that is well suited for mobile devices and don't find Windows 8's other perks compelling, there really is no reason to upgrade. That's fine - and frankly, some people even find the whole Metro scheme unattractive beyond them having no use for touch - again, fine. There are plenty of good reasons to not get into Windows 8. That being said, I feel I need to weigh in on this whole "Well, it's selling poorly, so it must suck" line of utterly inane reasoning.

If you - any of you - really believe "Well, Windows 8 is not selling as well as other OS's have, therefor it must suck" I ask you to do something for me. Take a look at the products you own. What mouse do you use? What keyboard? What phone? What car? What brand of shoes? What's your favourite restaurant chain? If in any of these cases one of your selections is not the market leader, the clear top seller, ask yourself - why aren't you using that market leader? It sells better - it must be better. Why weren't you lining up for Apple when they were on top of half the bloody computing/music/etc world? The answer is obvious, and we all see it in *so* many different areas where we purchase things, but many of us seem to put blinders on when it comes to Windows 8... Sometimes you don't buy or support a product for the reasons that the largest part of the mainstream market does. Sometimes some niche, specialized, or even generally unpopular product is better for your needs than the one that captures the largest part of the market. Does this mean whatever small-player product you support is terrible? Nope, obviously not. So why are so many otherwise rational people foaming at the mouth to apply this reasoning to Windows 8, and unwilling to consider that it's an OS that's branching out from what Windows has classically done and, as such, if you solely want Windows for what it has classically done, it just may not be for you rather than being terrible?

Hell, many of you will defend Linux to the grave, but they can't give Linux away to compete with Windows - and yes, that includes 8. Does that mean Linux is terrible? Nope. How many of you own a non Samsung phone, when whatever it is can't sell as much as Samsung devices? Why on earth would someone buy something but the currently best selling console? Do you all see what I'm getting at? This is a bit like going into a store and saying "I think I want basketball shoes" and someone jumps out at you saying "You IDIOT - Cross trainers sell better, basketball shoes are TERRIBLE! You know how I know? THEY SELL LIKE CRAP IN COMPARISON TO CROSS TRAINERS!"

So ask yourself, if you so staunchly believe that sales equate with how "good" an operating system is in the case of Windows 8, why not apply this reasoning to everything else?

And then, do me another favour. Try using Windows 7 on a touch screen, then tell me Windows 8 has no place. Frankly, Windows 8 does pretty much everything Windows 7 does on a desktop, but Windows 7 is just nasty on a touch screen. For some of us, this catchall approach is working wonderfully.

As for the subject of the article... It sucks. If it's a problem, stick with 7 - Windows 8 ain't for everyone, and like every other version of Windows, it has had major bugs to work through - find me a version of Windows that hasn't and then we'll talk.

 

[jimmysmitty]

And anyone who considers themselves a computer enthusiast would be able to evolve to use 8/8.1 without any issues as that's the name of the game, change.

If people expected Windows to stay looking like 7 for ever, they haven't been doing this long enough.

So it may be that certain hardware needs drivers updated or maybe MS can fix it on their end.

And anyone who considers themselves a computer enthusiast would be able to evolve to use LinuxMint without any issues as that's the name of the game, change.
(There, fixed it for you) After all, if my wife - who knows nothing about computers, is able to do her work with Linux on her notebook (I murdered Win8 on it before I installed the all ways free Linux), what is your excuse? Oh... yeah games and MS-Office. She doesn't play PC games and MS-Office isn't required so it works fine. (My main PC is Windows7)

No... I expect the next version of Windows to NOT look like Windows 2.0! (Use a handy dandy tool called Google Image search) Microsoft's own promotion of 8.1 has them wetting their panties for the ability to run 3 metro apps side on the same screen! OMfG!!! What would they think of next?!

I'm surprised this problem was NOT called during beta. Unless MS changed the mouse API at the last moment and didn't bother to test nor let the mouse hardware companies know about it. Otherwise, Logictech and others would have had months to update their drivers... which appears, didn't happen.

Seriously, Win8 offers so little over 7... most Win8 "lovers" claim to rarely ever use Metro... er, okay... wasn't that the selling point of Win8? Its THERE on the box, in your face. Ooooh faster boot times! Big deal! (A) Linux boots up just as fast without a hybrid-hibernation-boot process (B) any SSD installed Win7 PC will wake up faster than anything else... My Desktop rarely ever shuts-down. Even its DVD software will wake up the computer, record then go back to sleep. Windows 8 is so great, that PC sales is about 50% from last year... and here is a little fun fact... Windows7 installs are still CLIMBING! XP is still at 38% marketshare vs. W8's 8%.

How do we know Win8 sucks balls? When Win7 was released to the public, Vista boxes and discs/etc disappeared within a few days. Vista's market share peaked at 24% and its been downhill since. Here we are today, Win7 installs have gone up 6~7% since W8's debut... ouch. If consumer PCs were on the shelves with Win7 sitting next to W8 models... W8 would be at 1~2% marketshare. And of course, the large number of VPs and a certain Steve Ballmer being FIRED is a big indicator and was expected MONTHS before Win8 was unleashed to the public.

PS: yeah, I liked the return of the UP button on Explorer, the new Task Manager is awesome (I give it a 10) and the file-copy/move window is slick... but its not worth $150. The UP button can be added to Win7's Explorer (its kinda ugly) and TeraCopy is a free File-Copy/move Window that is far more powerful than Win8's (but no cool graph) and Task Manager is not something that people use constantly.

That's not a fix as Linux is more of a tinkering/hobbyists tool than a real OS that can be used in a business or by the majority of people.

Most people wont always have a computer nerd to fix their Linux issues, and there are issues. Nor do they have any kind of support, that's the reason its free.

As for the % you throw around, you do realize that the main reason 7s market share is going up right now is because all of those businesses that didn't want to stray fro XP are finally moving to 7. Businesses never go for the latest and greatest. They are always a step or two behind, and since 7 came out soon after Vista they skipped it.

Vitsas issues were more with hardware not being good enough but it was a bad OS release with a lot of other bugs.

8 itself is actually a good OS. It has improvements other than the file transfer/task manager in the kernel. 7 Does not support UEFI or Secure Boot, 8/8.1 does. What's so great about that? Well UEFI for one allows for faster boot times as it doesn't have to wait for the BIOS to ok every component. Secure Boot locks the MBR from being messed with and doesn't allow anyone to boot to un MS certified boot devices (DVDs, USB, HDD etc). When those FBI money scam viruses were going around, of all the Windows 8 machines I worked on at my old job as a PC Tech only one 8 machine had it and it was one without Secure Boot. The rest didn't because Secure Boot stops anything from messing with the MBR.

Then there is GPT. 7 can support GPT, but cannot boot to GPT. 8 Can boot to GPT meaning if you want one 3/4TB HDD to boot from, 8 can do it.

So there are improvements that people don't mention and a lot more I didn't mention but are there. People focus on one thing only, Metro. I don't use Metro for anything but searches. I press the Start button and type what I want. Then again I didn't use the Start menu either.

I have said it before, and I will say it again, people hate change. Tons of people held on to DOS, tons of people held on to Windows 98/2K (some still do) and tons of people held on to XP.

It will always be like that. Even when the new OS is faster, more secure and designed around where things will eventually go (touch screens are going to be the major thing soon) people will cling to whats familiar because learning new is too hard.

 

[ninong]

i'm so bad at FPS games that i couldn't tell if my mouse is lagging or not. currently playing BF3 again on a logitech g700 and still getting 1:2 in kills:deaths or worse

 

[clonazepam]

Don't blame declining PC sales on Win8 alone, either. The average users are browsing the web, checking email/social media, and using Office-like software. These basics are not going to open or load in any faster way that is perceivable to the average person using hardware from 3-4 years ago to today. The average family has a tech budget, and there's other markets advancing more rapidly that has their focus... phones, tablets, consoles, larger televisions are cheaper than ever.

I'm still in Windows 7. I have no interest in using a touch interface, or using 'apps' from any marketplace. My graphics cards support directx11. All of my hardware is from 2011. So in my particular case, my situation tells me to stick with what I've got, probably for at least another year, or two.

I have been looking at Windows 8 prices, and am considering tinkering with it at some point. I have family and friends that will expect me to know it inside and out, and that'd be the main reason for messing with it at all.

I wonder if Tom S. is still using his Logitech G5 mouse, and if he's (or any other editors / Tom's readers) encountered any issues with Win 8.1, and using this mouse. (had to get back on topic lol)

 

[jimmysmitty]

Don't blame declining PC sales on Win8 alone, either. The average users are browsing the web, checking email/social media, and using Office-like software. These basics are not going to open or load in any faster way that is perceivable to the average person using hardware from 3-4 years ago to today. The average family has a tech budget, and there's other markets advancing more rapidly that has their focus... phones, tablets, consoles, larger televisions are cheaper than ever.

I'm still in Windows 7. I have no interest in using a touch interface, or using 'apps' from any marketplace. My graphics cards support directx11. All of my hardware is from 2011. So in my particular case, my situation tells me to stick with what I've got, probably for at least another year, or two.

I have been looking at Windows 8 prices, and am considering tinkering with it at some point. I have family and friends that will expect me to know it inside and out, and that'd be the main reason for messing with it at all.

I wonder if Tom S. is still using his Logitech G5 mouse, and if he's (or any other editors / Tom's readers) encountered any issues with Win 8.1, and using this mouse. (had to get back on topic lol)

Unless you use the Start Menu non-stop, you wont notice any changes going from 7 to 8.1 except that it boots faster and that data transfers seem to be more consistent.

As for Logitech, I don't have a G5 but I have a G600 and so far no issues in any games I have played which is (on 8.1) so far Crysis 3, BF4 Beta, TF2, L4D2, DoTA 2, Portal, Portal 2, Alien Swarm, GMod, Doom 3 BFG, BioShock Infinite, Toomb Raider, FC3, Skyrim and a few others. I tested it by playing the game and swapping through all of my DPI presets from 200DPI to 8200DPI and they all worked as expected.

I have seen a few people post issues with their mouse, the only one from Logitech so far was a G9X but the majority has been Razer so far.

 

[hythos]

I wouldn't be surprised if the mouse-delay was because Microsoft had deliberately included code that the DOJ required, to prevent the user from clicking on something that was displayed on the screen.

 

[pyromanicadeluxe]

Who cares, no one that takes themselves seriously would be running windows 8 anyway. Derrr

And anyone who considers themselves a computer enthusiast would be able to evolve to use 8/8.1 without any issues as that's the name of the game, change.

If people expected Windows to stay looking like 7 for ever, they haven't been doing this long enough.

I have been playing Human Revolution the last couple of days (since updating to 8.1) with zero increase in mouse lag. So I suspect this might be an issue only for a small percentage of people.

I agree that it may also depend on the hardware as well. My friend updated to 8.1 using TechNet the same time I did and in TF2 he said he had to double his DPI and it still felt laggy.

I had no issues with TF2 in the preview or official release of 8.1.

He has a Razr Naga and a Razr keyboard, I have a G600 and a Corsair K90. It could even be driver related (for the mouse) as I know he has problems trying to use Logitech software/drivers for his Logitech G35 headset with his Razr software/drivers.

So it may be that certain hardware needs drivers updated or maybe MS can fix it on their end.

I use windows 8 every day and it is simply less efficient than windows 7 in a desktop environment. Just because something changed does not mean it is immediately better. A steering wheel on a car may or may not be the "best" to steer, but it is intuitive, efficient, and most people already know how to use it. If the steering wheel was replaced with 4-wheeler handle bars I'm sure we could use it, but it would probably suck and you would bitch about it. To successfully implement a change as drastic as windows 8 when the "old way" was not broken would be to do it gradually and highlight the benefits. What MS did in trying to unify their OS across all platforms is actually a great idea, but it was very poorly implemented. It is obvious that MS tried to take a shortcut to mobile market share by throwing its desktop users the wolves, and guess what? if failed. If ios was all the sudden jammed onto desktop macs, people would be equally upset.

Every time a full screen W8 app opens my heart starts racing and I feel like I'm in prison.

Sorry for the rant, just sayin.

 

[jimmysmitty]

Who cares, no one that takes themselves seriously would be running windows 8 anyway. Derrr

And anyone who considers themselves a computer enthusiast would be able to evolve to use 8/8.1 without any issues as that's the name of the game, change.

If people expected Windows to stay looking like 7 for ever, they haven't been doing this long enough.

I have been playing Human Revolution the last couple of days (since updating to 8.1) with zero increase in mouse lag. So I suspect this might be an issue only for a small percentage of people.

I agree that it may also depend on the hardware as well. My friend updated to 8.1 using TechNet the same time I did and in TF2 he said he had to double his DPI and it still felt laggy.

I had no issues with TF2 in the preview or official release of 8.1.

He has a Razr Naga and a Razr keyboard, I have a G600 and a Corsair K90. It could even be driver related (for the mouse) as I know he has problems trying to use Logitech software/drivers for his Logitech G35 headset with his Razr software/drivers.

So it may be that certain hardware needs drivers updated or maybe MS can fix it on their end.

I use windows 8 every day and it is simply less efficient than windows 7 in a desktop environment. Just because something changed does not mean it is immediately better. A steering wheel on a car may or may not be the "best" to steer, but it is intuitive, efficient, and most people already know how to use it. If the steering wheel was replaced with 4-wheeler handle bars I'm sure we could use it, but it would probably suck and you would bitch about it. To successfully implement a change as drastic as windows 8 when the "old way" was not broken would be to do it gradually and highlight the benefits. What MS did in trying to unify their OS across all platforms is actually a great idea, but it was very poorly implemented. It is obvious that MS tried to take a shortcut to mobile market share by throwing its desktop users the wolves, and guess what? if failed. If ios was all the sudden jammed onto desktop macs, people would be equally upset.

Every time a full screen W8 app opens my heart starts racing and I feel like I'm in prison.

Sorry for the rant, just sayin.

I have been using 8 since release at home, used it at my last job and am using it at my current job (where I work from home) and so far I am no slower in it than in 7. If anything since data transfers are faster I am faster as I have to wait less for them to finish.

That said, I can understand someone who is not used to adapting to new ways to not be able to navigate as fast. I know almost all of the keyboard shortcuts and can navigate a PC without a mouse (have had to when a mouse driver was corrupted or USB driver was).

So for me, the change is not that big of a deal.

But you also have to consider the fact that the majority of people are used to a quick touch based interface and that the majority of people will easily adapt when touch screens become cheaper (hell you can get a Samsung laptop with a higher resolution touch screen for less than a qHD monitor). That's where the market will and has been going. People like the AiO touch screen PCs.

It's just us enthusiasts who prefer the desktop. I do but 8 is not as bad as people say. They akin it to Windows ME, which was just a horrible OS. 8 is stable, fast and more secure than 7 or any OS before it. Now if it was slow, unsecure and always crashing, sure it would be a bad OS.

I am just tired of the eliteness people on 7 have. The same thing happened when 7 hit with the XP people. People thought XP was all they needed and better than 7 but XP sucks since, well it can't take advantage of our currently over powered hardware. 7 and 8 can.

I am looking forward to the next MS OS.

 

[pyromanicadeluxe]

Who cares, no one that takes themselves seriously would be running windows 8 anyway. Derrr

And anyone who considers themselves a computer enthusiast would be able to evolve to use 8/8.1 without any issues as that's the name of the game, change.

If people expected Windows to stay looking like 7 for ever, they haven't been doing this long enough.

I have been playing Human Revolution the last couple of days (since updating to 8.1) with zero increase in mouse lag. So I suspect this might be an issue only for a small percentage of people.

I agree that it may also depend on the hardware as well. My friend updated to 8.1 using TechNet the same time I did and in TF2 he said he had to double his DPI and it still felt laggy.

I had no issues with TF2 in the preview or official release of 8.1.

He has a Razr Naga and a Razr keyboard, I have a G600 and a Corsair K90. It could even be driver related (for the mouse) as I know he has problems trying to use Logitech software/drivers for his Logitech G35 headset with his Razr software/drivers.

So it may be that certain hardware needs drivers updated or maybe MS can fix it on their end.

I use windows 8 every day and it is simply less efficient than windows 7 in a desktop environment. Just because something changed does not mean it is immediately better. A steering wheel on a car may or may not be the "best" to steer, but it is intuitive, efficient, and most people already know how to use it. If the steering wheel was replaced with 4-wheeler handle bars I'm sure we could use it, but it would probably suck and you would bitch about it. To successfully implement a change as drastic as windows 8 when the "old way" was not broken would be to do it gradually and highlight the benefits. What MS did in trying to unify their OS across all platforms is actually a great idea, but it was very poorly implemented. It is obvious that MS tried to take a shortcut to mobile market share by throwing its desktop users the wolves, and guess what? if failed. If ios was all the sudden jammed onto desktop macs, people would be equally upset.

Every time a full screen W8 app opens my heart starts racing and I feel like I'm in prison.

Sorry for the rant, just sayin.

I have been using 8 since release at home, used it at my last job and am using it at my current job (where I work from home) and so far I am no slower in it than in 7. If anything since data transfers are faster I am faster as I have to wait less for them to finish.

That said, I can understand someone who is not used to adapting to new ways to not be able to navigate as fast. I know almost all of the keyboard shortcuts and can navigate a PC without a mouse (have had to when a mouse driver was corrupted or USB driver was).

So for me, the change is not that big of a deal.

But you also have to consider the fact that the majority of people are used to a quick touch based interface and that the majority of people will easily adapt when touch screens become cheaper (hell you can get a Samsung laptop with a higher resolution touch screen for less than a qHD monitor). That's where the market will and has been going. People like the AiO touch screen PCs.

It's just us enthusiasts who prefer the desktop. I do but 8 is not as bad as people say. They akin it to Windows ME, which was just a horrible OS. 8 is stable, fast and more secure than 7 or any OS before it. Now if it was slow, unsecure and always crashing, sure it would be a bad OS.

I am just tired of the eliteness people on 7 have. The same thing happened when 7 hit with the XP people. People thought XP was all they needed and better than 7 but XP sucks since, well it can't take advantage of our currently over powered hardware. 7 and 8 can.

I am looking forward to the next MS OS.

I may be totally off and I accept that, but I personally think touch screens in the desktop environment will NEVER become mainstream and they will end up on the technology trash heap similar to 3D TV's and Laserdisc.

 

[pjmelect]

I have just tried the latest version of Windows 8.1, As far as I am concerned it is worse than windows 8.0 for the following reasons. Some drivers that used to work with Windows 8.0 no longer work with 8.1 particularly wireless adapters, which can show some very strange behavior and others that just do not work, Classic shell latest version crashes on shut down. Many various small changes that only confuse the user, why Microsoft why?
Microsoft needs to go back to the drawing board with this one.

 

[belardo]

You know, I can understand a lot of people not liking Windows 8. Simply put, if you aren't interested in a touch interface or an OS that is well suited for mobile devices and don't find Windows 8's other perks compelling, there really is no reason to upgrade. That's fine - and frankly, some people even find the whole Metro scheme unattractive beyond them having no use for touch - again, fine. There are plenty of good reasons to not get into Windows 8. That being said, I feel I need to weigh in on this whole "Well, it's selling poorly, so it must suck" line of utterly inane reasoning.

Your defense of W8 is most reasonable yet. By all means, voice your likes and dislikes like anyone else. So with most of your reply, your points are good - mostly.

The fact that W8 is a touch interface isn't the issue. (When I say W8, I include 8.1 unless I'm being specific), its that its a badly done UI. Its an ugly UI. Its inconstant and just plain backwards. Really, I didn't think Metro would be an issue until I did start using it. For my people, such as myself - its jarring to go from a desktop to a menu-screen. The change of layout was done for the sake of change, not actual product improvement. Look at OS-X. It was released just before XP and is still pretty much the same today as it was then, just better looking. Meanwhile MS has gone from W98/2000 > XP > Vista > W7 > W8, 5 visually and operationally different ways of doing things (Vista has looks and works like a re-skinned XP, while Win7 actually added functionality).

The lack of visual clues, wasted space, lack of functionality within Metro is crap. But we keep getting the same thing from PRO W8 people "you rarely need to use Metro" "You can bypass Metro with XYZ add-on", etc, etc. So what is the WHOLE point of Metro is desktop users are avoiding it?! MS broke the standard of totally removing backwards functionality (Win7 can look as ugly as Windows2000 which is still better than W8).

I use Android, iOS and Windows7 every day with some Linux. Win8 drove me to try Linux and yes... I found Linux to be more functional as an OS UI, easy to figure out... logical.

If you - any of you - really believe "Well, Windows 8 is not selling as well as other OS's have, therefor it must suck" I ask you to do something for me. Take a look at the products you own. ~~ why aren't you using that market leader? It sells better - it must be better. Why weren't you lining up for Apple when they were on top of half the bloody computing/music/etc world?

Can't compare standard items to an OS. Windows only runs Windows software... Linux can run various emulations to play many games and run most apps (including MS-OFFICE). It doesn't matter what car you buy, a $500 Ford Escort or $500,000 Ferrari... they are fully compatible with the roads, stop lights and parking spaces.

If Windows 7 was on the market for anyone to walk into a Walmart, Best Buy or other real store - then the sales of W8 hardware would plummet. This i not made up, its a fact. Many people will just use it, doesn't mean they LIKE it... just like the days of MS-DOS in the 80s~90s... it was already pure crap, didn't keep it from controlling the computer industry. I don't count on MS to keep making or supporting Win7 for long. Hence I'm migrating to Linux.

So why are so many otherwise rational people foaming at the mouth to apply this reasoning to Windows 8, and unwilling to consider that it's an OS that's branching out from what Windows has classically done and, as such,~

Because with MS, there is no choice. MS can stop shipping Win7OEM discs any day... and many many people would be screwed... and it will happen. When they need to buy a new computer... ugh, its that crappy Window8! I have people and clients concerned with this all the time.

How many of you own a non Samsung phone, when whatever it is can't sell as much as Samsung devices? Why on earth would someone buy something but the currently best selling console? Do you all see what I'm getting at? So ask yourself, if you so staunchly believe that sales equate with how "good" an operating system is in the case of Windows 8, why not apply this reasoning to everything else?

Linux comes in many flavors (both good and bad points) I prefer LinuxMint over Ubuntu... cool thing is that it doesn't cost $150+ every 1~3 years. Yeah, I'm not a fan of Samsung phones... cheap plastic, etc. My business partner prefers the Samsung UI - I prefer Motorola. Again, Samsung doesn't effect my ability to use my Motorola.

Stick with 7 - Windows 8 ain't for everyone, and like every other version of Windows, it has had major bugs to work through - find me a version of Windows that hasn't and then we'll talk.

There is... its called Windows 7.

 

[belardo]

I may be totally off and I accept that, but I personally think touch screens in the desktop environment will NEVER become mainstream and they will end up on the technology trash heap similar to 3D TV's and Laserdisc.

There is a need of touchscreens for some applications... kiosks, tablets... but not a desktop computer, for most people. 3DTVs have a place - they add little costs to the actual HDTV which functions perfectly fine as a 2D display.

LaserDiscs were AWESOME... they we not trash. They simply became out-dated when DVDs came to market. 5" single sided disc vs a double sided 12"... you tell me. For the 80s and 90s... nothing was better for the consumer.

 

[belardo]

That's not a fix as Linux is more of a tinkering/hobbyists tool than a real OS that can be used in a business or by the majority of people.

A real "OS"? Are you stupid? Linux is a REAL OS. iOS is a real OS. MacOS is a real OS. AmigaOS is a real OS. Same stupid thinking as "real merica vs fake Americans",

Most websites are Linux. Many of the biggest servers ARE NOT running Windows... they are using Linux. What Linux lacks is games, Adobe, TurboTax and MS-Office in which many of those can run in virtual/emulation.

With many APPs running off the web... the OS because less important. And yes, the % numbers DO matter, hence the MS panic into making the Win8 turd. Far more Android devices are sold than Windows PCs.

As for the % you throw around, you do realize that the main reason 7s market share is going up right now is because all of those businesses that didn't want to stray fro XP are finally moving to 7. They are always a step or two behind, and since 7 came out soon after Vista they skipped it.

Win8 came out rather fast... business are not lining up to buy it... yeah, many XPs are going to Win7... but that didn't happen with Vista... if what you said was true, then Vista sales would have continued to grow... but they didn't.

Vitsas issues were more with hardware not being good enough but it was a bad OS release with a lot of other bugs.

More than that... it was software issues... it got better with SP3... but still a memory eating POS compared to Windows7. I remember when Vista first came out... its performance sucking problems were inexcusable. When an $300 XP desktop with 512mb could get the job done which requires an 8GB & more powerful CPU to handle Vista - its a software issue... and Windows 7 proved it as it ran on older hardware with less memory quite well. I still run Win7 on my ThinkPad with 2GB.

Then there is GPT. 7 can support GPT, but cannot boot to GPT. 8 Can boot to GPT meaning if you want one 3/4TB HDD to boot from, 8 can do it.

So there are improvements that people don't mention and a lot more I didn't mention but are there. People focus on one thing only, Metro. I don't use Metro for anything but searches. I press the Start button and type what I want. Then again I didn't use the Start menu either.

Unless you use the Start Menu non-stop, you wont notice any changes going from 7 to 8.1 except that it boots faster and that data transfers seem to be more consistent.

Okay... true on GPT... nothing keeps MS from making that work on Win7 other than choice... Linux supports bigger drives too. Someone who needs 4TB HD most likely is using an SSD as their boot / programs drive (like me). I use an 80GB SSD for that with my videos and games on two 1TB drives...

Not everyone can remember the name of every app installed on W8. A full screen to locate program is stupid... metro is stupid for the desktop... and people like YOU prove this over and over again. "I don't use metro for anything other than searches" well golly... Windows7 has the same Search window too... press the Start key, start typing OMG!! All that without losing a whole display of useless junk. Also, Metro is so badly designed as a touch OS, that MS sells keyboards and tablet-add-on keyboards with NEW special W8 shortcuts for navigation... wow... that means going from Touch to mouse to keyboard... constantly. And YES... you can tell you're using W8 the second you see its ugly flat 1980's style UI skin job. The W8 preview skin was great... simpler than Win7... not flat and ugly like what MS shoves down peoples throats.

Boots faster? Win7 = super reliable... goes to sleep... doesn't need reboots or shutdowns. Unless there is a problem or update, my Win7 desktop hasn't been rebooted in weeks or months at a time. And with an SSD, its takes 20seconds... who gives a rats ass? If you spend your time doing hourly reboots every day - then Windows8 is for YOU!

 

[pyromanicadeluxe]

I may be totally off and I accept that, but I personally think touch screens in the desktop environment will NEVER become mainstream and they will end up on the technology trash heap similar to 3D TV's and Laserdisc.

There is a need of touchscreens for some applications... kiosks, tablets... but not a desktop computer, for most people. 3DTVs have a place - they add little costs to the actual HDTV which functions perfectly fine as a 2D display.

LaserDiscs were AWESOME... they we not trash. They simply became out-dated when DVDs came to market. 5" single sided disc vs a double sided 12"... you tell me. For the 80s and 90s... nothing was better for the consumer.

3D technology has been very poorly welcomed by consumers. The film industry has tried for 25+ years to make it relevant to us and their most recent push is no different. Consumers are only willing to pay for 3D when it is the same or slightly more expensive than 2D(at home as well as in the theaters).

Laser discs were NEVER well received and they were long dead by the time DVD's came out. Laser discs competed with beta and VHS, and we all know who one that battle.(and NO; still in production does not mean popular)

 

[belardo]

Modern 3D is very very good, compared to the old days of red & blue paper glasses. But not all movies do it well. I'd consider Avatar as among the best, Gravity very well done. Tron Legacy is average. When Hollywood rushes on the 3D Gold Rush, they tend to make average movies worse or harder to bother seeing in the theater. Not every movie needs to be in 3D or can take advantage of it. 3D will continue to get better. The last two hurdles are having glasses at all and disorientation with long-term use. The glass-less 3D is getting their (Nintendo 3Ds). Thing is... operating system is not a movie.

A computer tech that is TRASH is something like the Mouse-scanner thingy various companies tried out 14 years ago. It was free, USB animal looking device... newspapers and magazines would include a bar code. You swiped it and your browser will go somewhere. It failed, they were trying to fix a problem that wasn't there. Simply having "somedomain.com" on an ad/article was good enough without need of a device and driver issues.

That is Windows8's failure... Metro was never needed for the desktop. Running Metro Apps on the desktop would have been... possibly useful and its possible. but that is not what MS is aiming for. Windows8 is NOT a good desktop GUI, the way they treat their customers - like criminals is NOT GOOD. WindowsRT is dead... it was never needed. MS was TOO DAMN stupid to figure this out before they started making code. Hint: Android & iOS are phone/tablet OSes. But I think MS's goal was that RT would replace Windows x86. Nobody still knows what the hell RT means. Most Surface owners seem to have keyboards... While such things are rare with everyone else.

Why spend $1000 on a tablet-notebook wanna-be, when a $500~700 13~15" notebook would do it better?

About Laser Discs: They *WERE* becoming mainstream... until DVDs came. I still have some LDs left. I, like other LD owners welcomed DVDs. LDs were twice as sharp as VHS, came in letterbox, far better color, better sound and random access. Things video tape can't do. But you couldn't record to LDs. They were extremely popular with people who wanted the best possible picture... because 540x300 (typical) res of VHS didn't compare to LD's 720x480. DVDs replaced LD... LD came out about 20 years before DVD. That is ALL.

LD didn't compete with VHS or Beta. VHS competed with Beta. LD owners all owned VHS. With todays OnDemand / netflix and DVR - nobody needs VHS anymore. So YES, LDs were well received... and more and more stores were carrying them until DVDs started becoming mainstream. People who were into Sci-Fi and Anime were a big chunk of the LD user base. Again, we were happy to buy a 5" light weight disc compared to a thick 12" LD. I'd say an LD was as heavy as 7~10 DVDs. Then there was the flipping at the 60min mark.

 

[pyromanicadeluxe]

Modern 3D is very very good, compared to the old days of red & blue paper glasses. But not all movies do it well. I'd consider Avatar as among the best, Gravity very well done. Tron Legacy is average. When Hollywood rushes on the 3D Gold Rush, they tend to make average movies worse or harder to bother seeing in the theater. Not every movie needs to be in 3D or can take advantage of it. 3D will continue to get better. The last two hurdles are having glasses at all and disorientation with long-term use. The glass-less 3D is getting their (Nintendo 3Ds). Thing is... operating system is not a movie.

A computer tech that is TRASH is something like the Mouse-scanner thingy various companies tried out 14 years ago. It was free, USB animal looking device... newspapers and magazines would include a bar code. You swiped it and your browser will go somewhere. It failed, they were trying to fix a problem that wasn't there. Simply having "somedomain.com" on an ad/article was good enough without need of a device and driver issues.

That is Windows8's failure... Metro was never needed for the desktop. Running Metro Apps on the desktop would have been... possibly useful and its possible. but that is not what MS is aiming for. Windows8 is NOT a good desktop GUI, the way they treat their customers - like criminals is NOT GOOD. WindowsRT is dead... it was never needed. MS was TOO DAMN stupid to figure this out before they started making code. Hint: Android & iOS are phone/tablet OSes. But I think MS's goal was that RT would replace Windows x86. Nobody still knows what the hell RT means. Most Surface owners seem to have keyboards... While such things are rare with everyone else.

Why spend $1000 on a tablet-notebook wanna-be, when a $500~700 13~15" notebook would do it better?

About Laser Discs: They *WERE* becoming mainstream... until DVDs came. I still have some LDs left. I, like other LD owners welcomed DVDs. LDs were twice as sharp as VHS, came in letterbox, far better color, better sound and random access. Things video tape can't do. But you couldn't record to LDs. They were extremely popular with people who wanted the best possible picture... because 540x300 (typical) res of VHS didn't compare to LD's 720x480. DVDs replaced LD... LD came out about 20 years before DVD. That is ALL.

LD didn't compete with VHS or Beta. VHS competed with Beta. LD owners all owned VHS. With todays OnDemand / netflix and DVR - nobody needs VHS anymore. So YES, LDs were well received... and more and more stores were carrying them until DVDs started becoming mainstream. People who were into Sci-Fi and Anime were a big chunk of the LD user base. Again, we were happy to buy a 5" light weight disc compared to a thick 12" LD. I'd say an LD was as heavy as 7~10 DVDs. Then there was the flipping at the 60min mark.

I agree with 90% of what you say, including that there are better of examples tech trash that could be compared to touchscreens. But when it comes to the history of laserdisc you are a little off. Laserdisc vs VHS battle happened long before dvd's came to market. No, they were not making a comeback. Very few people ever owned them compared to VHS. Yes, there were laserdiscs being manufactured when DVD's arrived but they were in no way a serious competitor. This link should tell you everything you need to know.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=laserdisc+history

 

[bootsec]

Myst 3: Exile is also unplayable. Expecting fix from Microsoft soon.