Windows XP vs. Vista: The Benchmark Rundown

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DX is GAMING thusly games run on Vista so no free market exists so this perputuates MSes MONOPOLY (no link needed since I never disputed that MS owned DX. I pointed out that MSes monopoly is stronger due to DX)
You do know that there are games that can run on both the Open GL system, and DirectX? But the standard is DirectX. Most games are built for DX. Explain that.What?
 
Ah never mind. You and I will never see eye to eye anyways. All I get from these discussions is a good laugh, and more material for geek jokes.
Suit yourself I just don't understand what you're asking me to talk about? I know there are few games that are multi platform. I know most games require DX and Windows. I know Microsoft owns DX and I know that devlopment takes time and money. Why write a game for *nix when Windows is the only game. Why spend more money and time to port code so a few hackers can play games. Why do anything when you can stick with Bull & Skeve and make big bucks. If anything DX adds to MSes MONOPOLY and you're all waiting for the DX10 cards to come out. "Nation be dammed I want to play Crysis now!" That about sums it no? or are you talking about open GL?
 
Also, since IE is such a monopoly, explain how FireFox is closing the gap between it and IE. MS doesn't in any way stop you from using another web browser if that is your choice. Now, you'd have a point if MS actively prevented you from running other browsers...
 
Also, since IE is such a monopoly, explain how FireFox is closing the gap between it and IE. MS doesn't in any way stop you from using another web browser if that is your choice. Now, you'd have a point if MS actively prevented you from running other browsers...
Do you mean a point in relationship to Netscape and AOL or about MS being a "Fluffy Bunny" regardless of any browser? Sure the current one is Firefox and as I remember IE had a big fat buffer over run issue and people were being directed to use Firefox. So "die hacking attempt" hurt IE. Now if you look closely at IE7 you can almost make out the little Firefox imbeded in the corner....Ha Ill bet you looked. In time MS will destroy Firefox too.
 
Do you mean a point in relationship to Netscape and AOL or about MS being a "Fluffy Bunny" regardless of any browser? Sure the current one is Firefox and as I remember IE had a big fat buffer over run issue and people were being directed to use Firefox. So "die hacking attempt" hurt IE. Now if you look closely at IE7 you can almost make out the little Firefox imbeded in the corner....Ha Ill bet you looked. In time MS will destroy Firefox too.

So if a company does something right, No other company should be allowed to use that for inspiration? Imagine a car company is the first to implement airbags in cars, saving lots of lives. Now by your logic, no other car company (especially the large corporations like GM, FORD and Daimler Chrysler who have a firm grip on the market) should be allowed to implement that feature?

Or, saying it differently, you place the interest of the small underdog company over the interest of the paying consumer!? And to support that thought you use the big corporations' alleged monopoly position.

Following all these threads I have done a little soul searching and have tried various 'alternatives' to MS recently. Linux especially is often touted as the 'good guy' alternative, with the Open Source philosophy behind it. Now with the best will in the world I cannot see how that would a serious alternative any time soon. First of, there are so many versions (or 'distros') that the very thing it stands for (Open Source) is also it's biggest enemy towards market share gain. I have tried several 'distros' in the last couple of week, but not one, I repeat NOT ONE!, would install on my PC without hassle; Ubuntu (touted as the user friendly distro) gave an error code followed by a reboot, without any hint of what to do to solve it. So I tried Sabayon (touted as the performance distro with a native aero-like interface). Again, it would not install. After nearly a week of searching on various forums I finally managed to get it installed (using a Vesa VGA driver), but with the best will in the world I could not get my Geforce 8800 installed, despite drivers being available from nVidia (who said again that vista's DRM would kill support for Linux drivers? they're there, go look 'em up...). Sabayon uses the phrase 'it just works', but after a week of frustration and however much I wanted to give it a fair shot 'it just didn't work'. If Linux wants to be a Windows alternative, it has to let go of the whole elitist console commands, and offer mouse driven installers with a GUI and a trouble shooter.

MS isn't killing-off Linux, Linux is killing-off Linux. I am an experienced computer user, and have used several different OS' in the past 20 years. Is MS a monopoly because they have 'killed-off' competitors, used hostile take-overs and stole competitors ideas to obtain that position? Or is MS in their dominant position because no one has put up a viable alternative (and I mean an alternative with support for a distant future over several years, companies/individuals don't change their entire software environment based on one hit program or fancy distro)?

And as long as Apple maintains their stance that 'Apple only runs on Apple' (IE last generation PC components, DRMed to a point that only those will run OSX), only for the sake of maintaing the 'stability crown' (if it only runs on four different configurations, there is only so much that can go wrong), they are basically their own obstacle towards a bigger market share, MS has nothing to do with that.

Why aren't any games developped for Linux or OSX? Because MS owns DX? Or because Apple hasn't put in any effort to offer any good development tools that would make it interesting to develop for their platform (surely with the user install base Apple has at the moment, still millions, and the severe lack of game competition on that platform, this creates a huge incentive for a game developer to develop for that platform, instead of for an overcrowded market like windows?). And Linux is still such an archaic bunch of non supported and non unified distros (as it has been for years), that developing a commercial product is a severe risk for any developer. Open Source sounds noble, but for a developer that wants to make money on their products I don't see how this is a benefit...?

I would like nothing more than to have a choice of alternatives to the windows OS, alternatives that still allow me to freely choose my hardware, and alternatives to would show a commitment to offer support and compatibility on a long term basis. No such alternative exists today, nor has any company aspired to offer such an alternative...Is MS to blame for that? If Windows is really such a horrible OS, surely there is a HUGE market opportunity for anything that can compete? All companies have to do is stop creating 'niche markets' for their software/OS and focus on the big prize; average Joe...

Sorry for the long post (again), but I think a lot people are bashing MS because it seems like the thing to do, forgetting that the PC market is what it is today, largely thanks to MS and its long term investments...
 
Nice reply.. I feel like I should make this a sticky or something now. :wink: May have to discuss this with the guys to see if they think it would be a fair sticky.

Very well said.

Hehe, thanks... You guys at THG aren't by any chance hiring aren't you? :wink:
 
Nice reply.. I feel like I should make this a sticky or something now. :wink: May have to discuss this with the guys to see if they think it would be a fair sticky.

Very well said.

Hehe, thanks... You guys at THG aren't by any chance hiring aren't you? :wink:I would love to comment but I'm retired! I can mention *inux and I have no issues running it. I'm sorry that you can't get it up ( you're *inux system I mean) but eventually you may. For some reason I completely forgot what you posted, sorry! It must be because I have to grab some lunch? Wait, I only read the first and last scentences, Oh well.

Kisses
 
I would love to comment but I'm retired! I can mention *inux and I have no issues running it. I'm sorry that you can't get it up ( you're *inux system I mean) but eventually you may. For some reason I completely forgot what you posted, sorry! It must be because I have to grab some lunch? Wait, I only read the first and last scentences, Oh well.

Kisses

What's the matter? A post without conspiray theories about MS, DRM and the end of the PC as we know it boring you? Boring you so much that the only response you can come up with is a derogatory comment wrapped in a not so funny wisecrack? Fine, be that way... Ignorance is bliss, I guess...
 
You haven't been censured, that much I am sure of. You've been strongly advised to lay off having every post of yours be a Vista bashing post. You can speak your mind, but within reason.
You are confused... Censored would look like this....

If you like to eat candy well $$$$$$$$ is great.

Censured
adj 1: officially rebuked or found blameworthy; "the censured
senator did not run for another term"
2: officially and strongly disapproved; "the censured conflict
of interest"; "her condemned behavior" [syn: condemned]
 
Riser,

you are the moderator --- why are you giving opinion on this and why do you further think it should become sticky --- sticky being why microsoft is better????? Maybe microsoft is better --- but why not let forum sort it out for itself rather than have influence from moderator???
 
I said essentially the same thing, just not in so many words... where's my sticky?

😛

I use Linux from time to time. I know what a pain in the ass it is to install / configure. Yes, it gives you some powerful customization options, but unfortunately for someone that is new to Linux, it doesn't give you user-friendly means to access them. The community is great and extremely helpful (Linux_0 from the Linux forum here is an excellent example); but the last thing users want is to rely on someone else constantly for advice.

Once you get past the installation / configuration, then Linux is pretty much like Windows. Programs open and run the same way... so ease of use isn't the big problem with Linux. Getting to that point is the problem. When Linux breaks, I hear it's incredibly easy to fix and it can be fixed without reloading the entire system. It's great for those that know what they're doing; not so great for Grandpa at midnight when he decides to mess with something he shouldn't.
 
To everyone including moderator,

there does not seem much to offer here as moderator is now also taking sides --- i do not mind moderator taking a stand when rules are being violated--- and then he should only say what rules are being violated and give warning to offending members --- I dont think it is appropriate for moderator to take a side for or against the topics at hand--- if moderator wants to voice opinion - he should do so under a different name other than the name "moderator" as it has great influence on opinion of others and should not necessarily dictate which topics become top priority because "moderator" feels they should.

What the hell is going on here.
 
First, I'm a user. I was a user long before I became a moderator.

I'm here to keep things on track, keep language under control. Just because I'm a mod doesn't mean I can't post stuff. You're new here.

Do a search on my name for the Software and Network threads. You'll see I'm everywhere. It just happens that the last few months I've been taking a break from openly posting. This allows others to answer questions and build a bigger community. Though, I stop by to take a look at what's going on and try to help out where I can.

I've just been too busy to really sit down and post questions, answers, etc. Others are doing a great job at assisting. I have no need to hog all the attention.
 
To everyone including moderator,

there does not seem much to offer here as moderator is now also taking sides --- i do not mind moderator taking a stand when rules are being violated--- and then he should only say what rules are being violated and give warning to offending members --- I dont think it is appropriate for moderator to take a side for or against the topics at hand--- if moderator wants to voice opinion - he should do so under a different name other than the name "moderator" as it has great influence on opinion of others and should not necessarily dictate which topics become top priority because "moderator" feels they should.

What the hell is going on here.

Hold on...Does that mean that everyone with some sort of authority cannot be allowed to have an opinion? That sounds alright, but can you explain to me then why Bush has been very carefull to appoint Supreme Court Justices that were 'Pro Life' and fiercely against 'Pro Choice' on the whole religious/abortion issue?

Don't get me wrong, your authority should not be abused by your personal opinion (something that is clearly not happening in this thread IMO), but everyone should be allowed to voice their opinion nevertheless, even the Mods...

Since this topic seems to have enough voices on both sides of the fence, making it a Sticky does not favor one opinion over the other. The only reason I see for making this a sticky is to keep this debate open and to prevent multiple threads spawning about the same thing. The Mod may have thought that the quality of posts in this thread in particular, and the way people are reasoning their opinion (something always try to do as good as I can), were more interesting reading material that the average, run of the mill 'I hate MS/I Love MS' threads.

*EDIT* I would like to add to that, that a lot of peoples' negativity towards MS seems to come from reading this one article about its DRM (which has been debunked on most points, and subsequently rewritten without notice). Not a lot of people have come up with first hand experience examples to support their claims, or if they do they are unwilling to look at alternative explainations for their problems. For me it seems these people are more interested in voicing their (ill formed) opinion on MS and its OS than they are in solving the apparent problems they are experiencing with said OS.
 
I said essentially the same thing, just not in so many words... where's my sticky?

😛

Gah, you've been around long enough and you still haven't earned a sticky? What's up? Maybe you should try harder. :) Even I have a sticky in the Other. haha

Maybe if you wrote up a pro/con for MS & Linux, or took the time to pull posts together and toss them in a long post so people could get both perspectives?

For example, where I work, I can't use Linux because select applications that are vital to the company won't work. Thus, Linux and Unix aren't the systems to use. We use Windows.. though we have other computers that could be on Linux, why move to a mixed environment giving myself two different systems to know, maintain, upgrade, troubleshoot, and install company wide software on?

In fact, it would be stupid to switch to a mixed environment. I'm not against Linux. I'll install it once I don't have to spend excessive time on configuring it and I find a benefit strong enough to sway me from Windows.

I used DOS until Windows 98 came out. Come on. :)
 
I used DOS until Windows 98 came out. Come on. :)
Oh, so you're a DOS fanboy! :lol: My fingers would get too tired to rant about how Windows is a conspiracy against all DOS users by setting unreasonable graphic standards, but maybe I'll save it for another day... :lol:
 
I just had problems with 95. I couldn't do certain things I wanted.. certain programs, games, etc. It took a while for those programs to migrate to the windows platform though.

I had a copy of Windows 95 about a year before it was released. My friend's brother worked on it back in the day. I got an advance copy but it was really buggy and unstable.

At that time, I really didn't see a big benefit of 95 because no one had really jumped on it yet. I had 2 computers, one DOS, one 95. 95 was to toy around on.. When 98 hit and PNP came out, I was a happier person.

DOS was good. No one can really say otherwise. 😛
 
DOS was good. No one can really say otherwise. 😛
For what it did at the time, it was great. The nice thing is to be able to look back and see how great any OS was. It's when we try to predict where an OS MIGHT go in the future that we get into trouble. That's why every OS has its strengths/weaknesses in certain areas, because ultimately they each are moving in different directions for different reasons.
 
KwyjiboNL77,

You state "I would like to add to that, that a lot of peoples' negativity towards MS seems to come from reading this one article about its DRM (which has been debunked on most points, and subsequently rewritten without notice). Not a lot of people have come up with first hand experience examples to support their claims, or if they do they are unwilling to look at alternative explainations for their problems. For me it seems these people are more interested in voicing their (ill formed) opinion on MS and its OS than they are in solving the apparent problems they are experiencing with said OS."

My opinion is not necessarily against microsoft nor is it derived from one article, but believe there is an underlying issue relating to drm wether you believe in drm or not. Nor can the technical aspects of this article just be discarded even if the author has rewritten --- in fact, i credit the author for changing things which might have been in error as it is a testament to him wanting to give correct information. My intent is not to make this a microsoft witch hunt --- but to debate in a logical fashion the issues that surround drm and vista. Please note that I was against alpha posting under my one of my topics even though I was agreeing with him in some areas ---- wanted to hear other opinions outside of alpha. With regard to first hand experience to back up claims, there are a lot of problems occurring with vista --- To me, it has do to with all the complexity of the drm requirements but this is difficult to confirm as vista is so heavily masked in drm at the kernal and hardware level. In my opinion, vista could of been released long ago (it is now 5 years in the making) if not for all the drm stuff --- and, if not for drm, we would not be experiencing all of these problems --- perhaps I am wrong --- but would like to discuss with others and keep the topic open for debate provided such debate does not involve senseless comments and flaming which dilute all other opinions to a meaningless level.
 
Well, if you read back a few pages you in this thread, you will see that some people that have issues with Vista are unwilling to even look at alternative options to try and solve their issues, that they are unwilling to accept it MIGHT be a hardware or driver problem. If you want to discuss the woes and benefits of DRM, then that is fine, but don't make the same mistake as George W. Bush and his WMD. Don't go to war before you have a smoking gun.
As I have stated I am not a fan of the concept of DRM either, but I don't think apathy is the solution. Technology evolution has put us in a position now that we are beyond the point that content providers can supply content based on trust alone (as can be witnessed by having a quick look on the various torrent sites around). As with every other thing in life, honest consumers carry the burden of the actions of the dishonest consumers. I wish it was the other around. I really do. But unfortunatelly that is not how this world works. I would like to see people protesting the protection of content offer a genuine alternative to DRM. Not a rant to say that it doesn't work, not a preach about freedom and Open Source, but a genuine alternative.
Vista could have been released long ago if not for the new interface. Vista could have been released long ago if not for the new DX10 API. Vista could have been released long ago if not for the new indexing/caching routines. Fact is the market demands HD playback in their new PC. Not everyone, but the demand is there (as can be witnessed by the explosive growth of HDTV sales). If MS had ignored this new market until its next OS, then that would have been a bad bussiness decision.
Is DRM necessery? Probably not, but I think the content provider has the right to try out ways to protect its content from piracy (at its own risks of alienating its consumers). And if DRM is your weapon of choice, the only way it is ever going to work is if you implement it well. MS was given the choice; be a part of it and offer compatibility, or ignore it at loose out on a potentially booming market. MS did it MS style, that is 'if we are going to be part of it, we might as well be a real part of it', as did Apple with its iTunes DRM (putting them in a virtual monopoly position for digital music distribution...MS isn't the only one, you know...). Apple will follow suit with their DRMed HD OS, there is no way around it.

Back to Vista...The notion seems to be that Vista will NOT work on hardware that does not comply with the PMP specs. This is complete and utter nonsense. I have installed various versions of Vista on a now 3 year old PC (athlon 2800, 1GB RAM, ATI X800). It works perfectly fine. Video plays back fine, so does audio. No playback is restricted/degraded, because I won't even try to run protected HD content on it. DRM protected iTunes songs play back fine, despite the obvious lack of PMP/HDCP circuitry. It runs stable, it runs fast (mind you, this PC is 3 years old) and it does about everything I ask it to do. It plays Divx files, mp3 files, it can mount/rip DVDs (if I were so inclined), and it runs torrent programs. If anything, DRM is preventing me to buy protected HD content. That is not my problem. I'd rather not play protected HD content, than replace components in my PC to allow playback. I am fine with that. Vista is fine with that. Microsoft is fine with that. The content provider may not be fine with that, but that is HIS problem, not mine. At least Microsoft is giving me the choice, and if I wanted to play back that content, I know I can with Vista. But I don't have to. And my PC doesn't have to comply with all the DRM specs if I never intend to play DRM protected stuff. The choice is still yours/mine, not theirs.

About the much quoted article; this man in fiercely putting forward claims about Vista and DRM. He does so in a fashion that resembles propaganda. He has put forward 'truths' and 'facts' that were proven untrue. He has decided to secretly remove or alter his erroneous 'truths' and 'facts' rather than admit he was wrong. That is a severe case of bad and biased reporting, and as such any other claim he puts forward can be questioned for truth. Research is not about cherrypicking from (proven erroneous) articles for claims that have yet to be proven true or false. Research involves experiencing the product yourself in an objective manner, and if there is an issue you are particularly concerned about, the best way to find out the truth is by seeing with your own eyes if claims are founded or unfounded.

The article this thread is based on mentions OpenGL performance in Vista (and mentioned it is bad). For months all sorts of FUD articles/threads have been spreading on the internet, about how MS monopoly is going to kill off OpenGL in favour of its own DirectX and what implications this will have for future open standards. It has now been about 1.5 months, both ATI and nVidia have produced OpenGL ICDs in their drivers, putting performance on par with most XP situations (keeping in mind that Vista drivers are still immature, as were XP drivers 1.5 months after XPs release). Very few writers of these FUD articles/threads now have the decency to come out and say they were wrong, that they were misinformed and biased in their conclusions about Vista/MS. Instead, most of them seem to quietly leave through the back door, only to re-emerge with the next FUD laced article/thread about the next feature of Vista we should all fear. Be smart and ignore these articles/threads, instead find stuff out for yourself. Don't forget that people are willing to do the craziest things or make the craziest claims just to get more attention (or 'hits'), and spreading fear is one of the best ways to get attention.
 
The whole drm problem is not a true issue until someone can definitively point to it as actually being one - up to this point it is all possibilities and pointing to Vista's many driver/app. issues as being "drm-related" without really knowing it to be fact. Driver/App incompatibilities are par for the course for most new OS. BluRay and HD-DVD are just a few examples - the tech. has been incredibly difficult for both player man. and PC hardware companies to work with. To point to it as a DRM issue is missing the larger issue that the tech is using a whole different level of laser and digital tech that is part of the problem of implementation. The delay with NVidia drivers may be related to drm, but why has the new ATI cards been so stable - it would seem it was more related to company programming capability than tech. Pointing to speculative articles and, so far, more than a few months old only hurts the arguments because the whole tech will continue to evolve because it is so new. I admit I could be wrong about the drm issue, but I have to see many more hardware CEOs actually state this as the case for me to believe it. Also, I have no drm media content or hardware, yet my NVidia display driver still fails a few times a week for no apparent reason - it seems more basic than drm to me.
 
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