rofl! definitvly not kinney!
Asus P4P800DX, P4C 2.6ghz@3.25ghz, 2X512 OCZ PC4000 3-4-4-8, MSI 6800Ultra stock, 2X30gig Raid0
Asus P4P800DX, P4C 2.6ghz@3.25ghz, 2X512 OCZ PC4000 3-4-4-8, MSI 6800Ultra stock, 2X30gig Raid0
- Feb 18, 2003
- 20,040
- 0
- 50,960
You want to explain how SM3.0 is involved with that? First of all we're talking DX vs OGL. Second, the two major advanatages are not specific to the specs of either SM3.0(PS or VS) or OGL 1.5/2.0/+, but design choices that were meant for D3 and which D3 was made to exploit.
There's two things wrong with that statement, the next gen cards will have additional features that may or may not be the requirements for WGF1.0, the addition of FP32 HDR will be the default for UE3 based games. So when looking at it, IMO the future will not be defined so much by a set DX#.#x or even WGF# but by the subset features. Geometric instancing is in SM/VS3.0, but the X800s can do it because they have a superset to the standard features.
So the number of games that are geared to this specific requirement may also be somewhat limited. Just look at PS2.0 support added in Splinter Cell. If future games use WGF class features there may be even more limited use.
I'd give the nod to the GF6800GT and GF6800U if someone were truely worried about future features, and even 'just in case' if this were a long term card. However with the GF6600GT series it'll be like comparing the FX5200 for DX9./PS2.0 games no point in arguing it's prowess over the GF4ti because when it does run thos added features it struggles along.
- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com/" target="_new"><font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK
Doom 3 is a very shadow-insense game, and therefore benefits more from Shader Model 3 vs. 2; ( 3>2). Those benefits are shown through the various benchmarks you can find throughout the net. There, now that that's taken care of... 😀
Right, and just like I stated, in about a years time, coincidently around the same time as Vista or when the "next-next gen cards are released, features will improve. An example being Shader Model. It will improve from version 3 to version 4 (supposedly). I never said that would be the *only* feature. Because you're right about the subset features and all, and I totally acknowledge that.
- Feb 18, 2003
- 20,040
- 0
- 50,960
Just to reiterate D3 is OGL not DX, so that assumption based on 3>2 doesn't fit.
Shadow box clipping and alot of the other advanatages are not SM3.0 related they are OGL extension related and hardware design related that are independent of the API itself FP32/16 (which benifits the Sub PS2.0 performing FX series as well) so it's not SM3.0 related at all and would be a terrible excuse for trying to promote SM3.0 since it's not relevant.
Well if your answer's going to be that quick and ignore the facts that much, then my response would be 3DC plus ATi memory management > not. Means about as much as SM3.0 and D3.
True but GF6800s can't support SM4 any better either, and WGF1.0/'DX9.0L' is definitely beyond them too, so the question will be 'will people code for SM3.0 any better than 'SM2' versus true WGF1.0 capable cards?
It still doesn't have the critical mass, just like TruForm, great idea, but only offered an advanatage in a few games (despite one being the best game EVER! :lol: ).
And that's just it. It may offer some advanatages in the GF6800 class, and even that's up for debate, but considering that in the very few things out there to take advantage of SM3 features cause a huge performance hit and don't offer dramatically different features throught the whole game (granted the jacob's ladders in FartCry are interesting, but they're a small portion of the games, and only slightly better than those in HL2).
For the GF6600GT not a chance at SM3.0 being a major feature that would warrant it's purchase over a card that performs at a resolution and/or AA level higher. Only the GF6800 gets that consideration IMO.
- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com/" target="_new"><font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK
Ok, then I'm just a little confused. I'm not trying to be sarcastic, but then what advantage would having a SM3 card have over a SM2 card? Because everything you've stated is leading me to believe there really is no difference. And I hardly believe that's the case. So maybe you could further enlighten me...
- Feb 18, 2003
- 20,040
- 0
- 50,960
Ok, like I mentioned to RX8, there are some advantages (but a little costly IMO) to the SM3.0 class cards, but for the mid-range these seem beyond them. With the FP16 OpenEXR/HDR implementation in FartCry the GF6800U slows down to a level where the X850XT could replicate the same effect using 3 passes, with greater precision at close to the same speed. The greatest additions beyond the basics of PS2/VS2 are the vertex additions and one of the major benifits (geometric instancing) can be done by not only the nV GF6 and ATi X series but also the ATi R3xx series. As for dynamic branching, it doesn't appear that the heavy stuff that VS3.0 supports is also too tough for the 4x generation, no real tests yet on the G70 though but with 4X MADD it should be much better than the NV4x series.
Like I said earlier, while there are some differences, only the GF6800 series is powerful enough to exploit them in any way other than as a demo, and even then it's not that impressive IMO unlike the myriad of effects that DX9/PS2.0 brought to the table. You have to wonder, with all the time and money nV put into adding the features to their chips, why haven't they even gotten better demos to showcase these 'major differences'. And while the UE3 demo was pretty impressive, when you talk to people involved with it, the initial demo that came out at the GF6800's launch had no SM3.0 effect in it, and considering a year later there was only slightly more to show, it's definitely not an example of what can be done with SM3.0 over 'SM2.0+'
There is a nice bonus of SM3.0 support, but if the performance isn't there, then it's not that big a bonus to make that much of a difference. If a GF6800U is the same price as an X800/850XT and the games you play they match up evenly then as a tie-breaker the SM3.0 support would be nice. However if you mainly played HL2, then the GF6800U's SM3.0 support wouldn't be worth much to make up for the performance difference.
- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com/" target="_new"><font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK
RX8
Distinguished
- Dec 5, 2004
- 848
- 0
- 18,980
An X850XT is way more expensive than the 6800ultra, and 3 passes does not make a sm3.0 card, the x850xt just does not have the hardware and its the best so far ati can offer (i cannot wait for the r520 to come any sooner then this conversation would be void), Doom 3 on a x850xt with 3 passes would be nice to see.
GGA is correct SM3.0 is not a big bonus but its a good bonus compared to sm2.0 card bringings.
To be honest the current 6800 line is basically not powerfull enough to push games developers far enough with designing more sm3.0 quality graphics in games, apart from doom 3 which visually kicks ass in sm3.0, and lighting in fartcry looks amazing and just kills any ati card in visuals, and COR looks a lot better on my 6800 than on my X800XT, but thats ONLY 3 games i know of which exploit it.
When the R520 comes out this discussion will be finished, as there will be uber high tech for games developers to push the programimg further, and with the release of new consoles coming soon the graphics engines will be pushed further and PC gamers will benefit.
Me personally i would not buy a 6800 (not powerfull enough) or a X800/X850 (old technology crap) family card now, i would wait to see what the R520 brings to real world gaming and purchase one of the 7800/r520 familys they have a lot more horse power for the future.
<font color=purple> Dont expect Miracles humans made them. The blind are easily led by the blind </font color=purple>
GGA is correct SM3.0 is not a big bonus but its a good bonus compared to sm2.0 card bringings.
To be honest the current 6800 line is basically not powerfull enough to push games developers far enough with designing more sm3.0 quality graphics in games, apart from doom 3 which visually kicks ass in sm3.0, and lighting in fartcry looks amazing and just kills any ati card in visuals, and COR looks a lot better on my 6800 than on my X800XT, but thats ONLY 3 games i know of which exploit it.
When the R520 comes out this discussion will be finished, as there will be uber high tech for games developers to push the programimg further, and with the release of new consoles coming soon the graphics engines will be pushed further and PC gamers will benefit.
Me personally i would not buy a 6800 (not powerfull enough) or a X800/X850 (old technology crap) family card now, i would wait to see what the R520 brings to real world gaming and purchase one of the 7800/r520 familys they have a lot more horse power for the future.
<font color=purple> Dont expect Miracles humans made them. The blind are easily led by the blind </font color=purple>
- Feb 18, 2003
- 20,040
- 0
- 50,960
Depends on where you buy it from, and what type. I'm not talking about the X850XTPE BTW.
Explain that in relationship to what I said about FartCry, which is one of the only games to ship with SM3.0 support as you mention (BTW other that use it are SplinterCell ChaosTheory [worthwhile to turn on vs 1.1 but we'll have to see versus 2.0 now that they've patched PS2.0 support] ; and there are some add-on effects in a few other games like Painkiller). I agree 3 passes doesn't magically change the card, but if it can achive the same effect by doing that then that 'advantage' seems to be somewhat lessened when the time it take to do those 3 passes nearly equals the time it take the GPU to crunch through those extended shader instructions to achieve the effect.
It's not necessary for D3, the same effects can be achieved with far less, and that's what it's doing NOW with a few more passes (to do shadows). D3 seems to be the only one you guys can drag out to compare SM3.0 but it's not DX and the extended OGL API does not apply to D3. At least bring out Riddick if you want to try and discuss OGL, then you have a different support level, but even then you'd have to explain to everyone the benifits, because the visuals don't quite do it on their own.
???
DX =/= OGL you guys are mixing terms and not understanding what's going on with the game. It's not SM3.0 at work it different extensions and different unrelated architecture which is also found in the FX series , and the FX is definitely NOT SM3.0 compliant, arguably not PS2.0 compliant.
- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com/" target="_new"><font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK
cleeve
Illustrious
- Mar 7, 2003
- 12,012
- 0
- 40,790
Yeah, the Doom3 engine is pre-DircetX 9c (SM 3.0) anyway... although it uses OpenGL and not DX, so the point is moot.
Just to add a bit of personal experience here, I'm very happy with my 6800U but Far Cry with HDR is not really playable... which is painful for me, because it really looks very, very good. Screenshots don't do it justice at all, you have to see it in action.
But I have resigned myself to the fact that I'll have to wait for a next-gen card before I can play it... even a 6800U doesn't cut it in SM 3.0.
________________
<b>Geforce <font color=red>6800 Ultra</b></font color=red>
<b>AthlonXP <font color=red>~3300+</b></font color=red> <i>(Barton 2500+ o/c 412 FSB @ 2266 Mhz)</i>
<b>3dMark05: <font color=red>5,275</b>
Just to add a bit of personal experience here, I'm very happy with my 6800U but Far Cry with HDR is not really playable... which is painful for me, because it really looks very, very good. Screenshots don't do it justice at all, you have to see it in action.
But I have resigned myself to the fact that I'll have to wait for a next-gen card before I can play it... even a 6800U doesn't cut it in SM 3.0.
________________
<b>Geforce <font color=red>6800 Ultra</b></font color=red>
<b>AthlonXP <font color=red>~3300+</b></font color=red> <i>(Barton 2500+ o/c 412 FSB @ 2266 Mhz)</i>
<b>3dMark05: <font color=red>5,275</b>
pauldh
Illustrious
- Jan 1, 2004
- 11,814
- 0
- 40,810
Huh, What? Not in the USA. In both PCI-e and AGP, you can get a X850XT platinum edition for the price of the 6800U, and the plain X850XT is cheaper.
A Quick Pricewatch search:
AGP:
X850XT $364
X850XTpe $399
GF6800U $400
PCI-e:
X850XT $387
X850XTpe $474
GF6800U $465
<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?3dm05=658042" target="_new">3DMark05</A> <A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k3=3781954" target="_new">3DMark03</A>
pauldh
Illustrious
- Jan 1, 2004
- 11,814
- 0
- 40,810
exactly my view Cleeve. 6800U @ 430/1200 isn't strong enough IMO, so the 6600GT or vanilla 6800 would be far from enough. As far as HDR in Farcry, I have never seen what a X800 series can do visually, but the GF6 does look very nice except maybe a bit too much at times.
Only game I have noticed the extra beauty in is SP:CT. In that one the X800 series got rooked so there is a definate IQ advantage. But again HDR and soft shadows at 1024 with no AA is not worth the compomise to me as I didn't buy a 6800U to game at 1024 no AA. Basically beautiful to demo, but no practical for daily gaming. The 7800GTX sure spanks are 6800U's doesn't it.
<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?3dm05=658042" target="_new">3DMark05</A> <A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k3=3781954" target="_new">3DMark03</A>
- Feb 18, 2003
- 20,040
- 0
- 50,960
IF you look at rthdribl you can see some of the glow, blur and overexposure effects of HDR using PS2.0 model. To truely see the depth of the sm3 style model use a Realizm card (or maybe even the GF7800GTX) and use the OpenEXR add-ons to things like Maya, Rhino, etc. I've played around with some of the Photoshop ones and it's alot of fun mang!
For the best effect IMO don't do it real-time, replay it.
- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com/" target="_new"><font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK
For the best effect IMO don't do it real-time, replay it.
And now that there's the PS2.0 patch, I'd like tosee what the differences look like now that the X800 series aren't running under only PS1.1.
- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com/" target="_new"><font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK
pauldh
Illustrious
- Jan 1, 2004
- 11,814
- 0
- 40,810
I didn't hear about that PS2.0 patch. Interesting. Also, I never tried watching the rthdribl demo either.
<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?3dm05=658042" target="_new">3DMark05</A> <A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k3=3781954" target="_new">3DMark03</A>
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Pauldh on 08/05/05 08:01 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
<A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?3dm05=658042" target="_new">3DMark05</A> <A HREF="http://service.futuremark.com/compare?2k3=3781954" target="_new">3DMark03</A>
<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Pauldh on 08/05/05 08:01 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
- Feb 18, 2003
- 20,040
- 0
- 50,960
<A HREF="http://www.simhq.com/_technology/technology_058a.html" target="_new">SC3:CT Patch V1.4 review (with PS2.0)</A>
Unfortunately it's not in-depth, and doesn't explain the method used (and what exactly has been added), but it does provide some performance figures and some screenies.
<A HREF="http://www.daionet.gr.jp/~masa/rthdribl/" target="_new">Rthdribl by MASA</A>
- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com/" target="_new"><font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK
Unfortunately it's not in-depth, and doesn't explain the method used (and what exactly has been added), but it does provide some performance figures and some screenies.
<A HREF="http://www.daionet.gr.jp/~masa/rthdribl/" target="_new">Rthdribl by MASA</A>
- You need a licence to buy a gun, but they'll sell anyone a stamp <i>(or internet account)</i> ! - <A HREF="http://www.redgreen.com/" target="_new"><font color=green>RED </font color=green> <font color=red> GREEN</font color=red></A> GA to SK
TRENDING THREADS
-
-
Question The right hand fan on the graphics card spins and stops every 4 or 5 seconds ?- Started by xdTx
- Replies: 7
-
-
Discussion What's your favourite video game you've been playing?- Started by amdfangirl
- Replies: 4K
-
Question ARRGGGH!!!! I'm looking for help finding a replacement screw ?
- Started by Franknj229
- Replies: 15
Latest posts
-
-
Question KVM Switch Help (Work Laptop works, but PC doesn't)
- Latest: MajesticSapling
-
-
Question Random intermittent boot loop - - - possibly PSU-related ?- Latest: MrSaccharose
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram