News Xbox One Series X is Microsoft's Next Console

[sizzling]

The whole 4K 60fps is fairly mute in my opinion. The One X, is it true 4K? No it is not. However it does a dam good job considering the hardware and how little the system costs compared to a 4K pc. Gears 5 at 4K HDR does look better on my pc but the XBox which I use most for this game does a very job. There are other good examples.

 

[jasonf2]

Case designs aside console systems define the baseline spec for developers. In the last cycle all we got from both Sony and Microsoft were mediocre PC specs with game tweaked light os. Even the mid cycle refresh xbox one x was bragging at 6 teraflops while a 2080 ti is at 13.5. While I grant you the 2080 ti is a $1000+ card my point here is that if the next gen consoles are actually running at ~12 teraflops we are looking at a generation release that is out performing a 1080ti and not too far behind today's flagship 2080 ti pc parts. Granted a little light on ram but beyond that these things are going to set the bar much higher for mainstream gaming pcs and discrete gpus then where they sit today. Sony's choice to ditch the cell chip and marry into the X86 ecosystem means that both the ps5 and xbox x are going to be very similar in real world performance. One or the other will take the performance crown only by a narrow margin but make a big deal out of it. Ray tracing at 4k is still going to bog these things down pretty good, but that fact that they support and should be able to run it once again will redefine the baseline spec on pcs going forward. I see this as the turning point where developers start depending on ray tracing as part of their toolkit instead of a novelty feature to be turned on. This in itself should reduce game development cost with the game engines kicking out more polished rendering without developers having to spend as much time faking output to look like it is ray traced. I see a future where new games will still run on gpus without ray tracing, but they are going to look terrible.
Throw in SSDs and the ipc gains of zen 2 and this generation looks to be a solid upgrade that really is going toe to toe with mainstream gaming pc. Yes if you can spend $2500+ on a gaming pc you can probably match and beat their specs but a the <$500 range where I expect these things to launch at they are going to be a great deal.

 

[nofanneeded]

The specs seem fine. What do you want it to have? Anything more would likely be impractical from a cost standpoint. Not many people are likely to spend $1000 on a console.

As for the name, if the rumors are to be believed, there may be two versions of the console at launch, hence why they are using "series" in the name here. For example, there could be a version targeting 4k, and another targeting 1080p. If that's the case, the word "series" might get replaced by something else in the actual product names.


Where do you get that from? They're comparing it to the Xbox One X, and that console already offers a similar level of graphics performance as a 5500 XT. Double that would be around 5700 XT levels of performance, plus hardware raytracing, likely making the hardware faster than an RTX 2070.


Not really. Bear in mind, the Xbox One X only came out 2 years ago as a half-generational premium version of the console targeted at those wanting to game at "4K". It's not like computer hardware is massively improving from one year to the next either, so I wouldn't expect much more than that.

And as far as RAM is concerned, PC games have only recently started to significantly benefit from having more than 8GB of system RAM in demanding titles, and that's for the game, OS and any background applications combined. So while putting 16GB into a gaming PC is now the norm, a good chunk of that memory tends to still be sitting unused while gaming. And sure, that's unified memory also serving as VRAM, but that also likely means that games should be able to make more efficient use of it, rather than having to transfer data in and out of graphics memory.

Additionally, the console will utilize fast SSD storage in place of the hard drives found in existing consoles, so it should be a lot easier to stream data into memory on an as-needed basis, meaning the console shouldn't need to store as much in memory at any given time for a given level of detail. Current PC and console games operate on the assumption that loading data may be slow, so they hold more data in memory than they would have to if it were guaranteed that it could be loaded quickly off an SSD.


They didn't show the back, so it's very likely that there may be additional intake vents there. Plus, due to the efficient tube design, they may not need to move a ton of air through the system to keep temperatures in check. As the article mentioned, the case looks similar in design to that of a Corsair One, which manages to run both cool and quiet using a single large fan at the top to pull air through all of the system's heatsinks.


I rather doubt that. The whole point of water cooling is that it allows for a potentially larger array of cooling fins than could easily fit directly over the CPU, and allows them to be relocated to a position where they can either exhaust heat directly out of the case, or draw cool air in. In this design, none of that should be needed, since the case is pretty much a vertical tube that will likely exhaust heat directly out the top after pulling it through an array of fins attached to the CPU/GPU. Cool air will be drawn directly into the heatsink with warm air passing out through the top without recirculating through the case. The Corsair One does feature water cooling, but that's using a lot of off-the-shelf components, whereas this system's processor and GPU will be integrated into a single chip on a specially-built circuit board, and they can shape all the components as needed. Additionally, water cooling tends to be less reliable, with the pumps in all-in-one coolers having a tendency to fail after a few years or so, so it seems unlikely that would be something used in a console that's intended to last, without user maintenance, for an entire console generation.

you dnt know the motherboard design inside this tower yet , so you cant judge by guessing.

 

[nofanneeded]

I doubt that. They just don't have the longevity and reliability of a simple heatsink and fan...
A fan breaks down, you get it replaced. Easy-peasy.
The pump somehow gets clogged... breaks... leaks:
How many people running consoles pay attention to things like temps, frequency, power use, etc?
They just see that's it's not running as it should and is broken, yada-yada.

Sorry, but an AIO in a console isn't a cost-effective solution for neither the company selling the product, nor for the people interested, who, by the way, just want to be able to plug and play...

AIO are reliable enough, they are putting them in servers now ... and when you reach high temps in a tiny sized console this is the only way to go , or simply make a larger case in which people will hate more.

 

[blasjw]

I think that case design is a mistake. It is too much like a mini pc and for most home users I doubts that’s what they want in their livingroom. I’d much prefer a flat design that’s easy to loose in a cabinet. Looks a bit like a Corsair One clone.

OMG, first thing I thought when I saw it was that it looks exactly like the Silverstone FT-03 mini with the CD slot on the opposite side:

 

[sizzling]

OMG, first thing I thought when I saw it was that it looks exactly like the Silverstone FT-03 mini with the CD slot on the opposite side:

I see what you mean

 

[nofanneeded]

OMG, first thing I thought when I saw it was that it looks exactly like the Silverstone FT-03 mini with the CD slot on the opposite side:

This case is FOUR times the size of the new Xbox BTW

 

[drivinfast247]

If it can't hold 4k60fps on every game it's a pass from me.

 

[alextheblue]

"Spencer said that "when we do the math, we’re over eight times the GPU power of the Xbox One, and two times what an Xbox One X is." "

Source: This Article.

I think your quote is about CPU. CPU power has very little effect on the framerate in consoles, or at least usually isn't the primary cause (unless its struggling to load something from storage). Since it's fixed, developers just build their game console around what it can handle. So Scene complexity, physics, AI etc will improve somewhat, but output resolution isn't dictated by CPU.

Even still, a 4x increase in CPU power isn't even that good compared to gains made between previous generations. The Xbox One X really spoiled their ability to brag about how much better the Xbox Series X is supposed to be.

Although, if the rumored 13GB of unified memory for games is true, then that's going to be a significant bottleneck on any game that wants both scene complexity and 4k. The 16GB total pool is, what, only 50% more than a 12GB Xbox one X? The Xbox One had 16x the memory of the 360 - that's what a generational leap should look like.

Except there was an 8 year span between the Xbox 360 and Xbox One launches. "Generation" doesn't mean much in the console world anymore, for a number of reasons. Backwards compatibility means they can refresh more often, and still offer the same titles to existing owners. Add in that RAM capacity increases have been slowing in general (even on PC), and they're pretty much on target. 16GB is a little thin for a new high-end gaming PC, but it's still quite a bit for a console. Developers won't be boxed in by RAM capacity... memory bandwidth and raw GPU compute are another question entirely. Although for the record I think they'll be OK since devs will be using hybrid rendering engines tuned for a single set of hardware. They'll use the RT hardware where it makes sense and rasterize where it doesn't.

 

[bit_user]

who said it is a small PC ? Bring me a case like this to mkae my PC please !! I had this design in mind and no one ever made it but MS.

Cases like this were a bit in vogue, maybe 5+ years ago. The only one I specifically remember is the FT03 Fortress, by Silverstone:

https://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=291

Edit: I see @blasjw beat me to it. Well, I'm keeping my post for its link.

This case is FOUR times the size of the new Xbox BTW

Yeah, but it holds a video card and a standard PC powersupply. Because it's older, it can even hold 3x 3.5" HDDs and one 2.5" drive . The XBox has an APU, and its PSU is going to be either a custom form factor or it could even be an external power brick. The XBox will also save space by not having pluggable DIMMs and using either a M.2 NVMe drive or maybe that will also be soldered.

Basically, the XBox has the benefit of being fully-custom hardware. But, you said you wanted a PC case, so that's necessarily going to be bigger. Make up your mind.

 

[cryoburner]

the new consoles claim to be way betetr than old ones (xbox specifically 2-4 times iirc) and you will REQUIRE better thermal control.

Not necessarily. Keep in mind that the existing consoles are based on older, less efficient hardware. Even the updated models like the Xbox One X and PS4 Pro. The Xbox One X offers something roughly comparable to RX 580-level graphics hardware, while the new console's GPU may be more comparable to an RX 5700 XT. However, the 5700 XT is built on AMD's newer 7nm Navi architecture, and as a result only draws a little more power than an RX 580, despite offering around double the performance. Likewise, the Zen 2 processor architecture used by the new consoles should be way more efficient than the Jaguar Cores used in existing consoles, allowing them to increase performance substantially without increasing power draw. The GDDR6 memory and SSD should also be drawing a bit less power. So, total power draw might not actually change all that much.

Ray tracing at 4k is still going to bog these things down pretty good, but that fact that they support and should be able to run it once again will redefine the baseline spec on pcs going forward.

A lot depends on how much hardware will be dedicated to raytracing, or how AMD's implementation will compare, which we still don't know. The current high-end graphics cards from Nvidia arguably don't provide enough RT cores to do raytracing well, which is why they struggle to even do 1080p with multiple raytraced effects enabled. Double the RT cores, and they could likely handle 1440p pretty well though.

And of course, console games often don't run at native resolution anyway. Upscaling with newer image-sharpening techniques should help lower resolutions look closer to actual 4K though, while reducing demands for raytraced lighting effects.

 

[Phaaze88]

AIO are reliable enough, they are putting them in servers now ... and when you reach high temps in a tiny sized console this is the only way to go , or simply make a larger case in which people will hate more.

They are more expensive than air cooling solutions(whether active or passive) by a significant margin.
The company would have to accommodate the customers with troubleshooting AIOs - leaks, failing pumps, etc. = higher potential costs, which said company will likely add into the cost of console in some way or other.
People have old Nintendo, Sony, Microsoft(etc.) systems to this day that still run without issue without having to replace anything.
Can you imagine if those same devices had run with AIOs or some similar solution instead?
-How much more they'd cost?
-How many replacements would a single customer have gone through by now due to AIO failures?
-How much those replacements would cost the company as well? They're not going to be free...
-Product support doesn't last forever; what are people to do should the AIO inside fail? Buy a whole other working system until that fails? Nah, because emulators, right? Or they can put in time and more money to fix it themselves..?

'Reliable enough', huh? And all the above makes up for that?
You must be thinking short term.

they are putting them in servers now...

That's big pocket territory, mate. You shouldn't be comparing that to mainstream.

 

[bit_user]

Heatsinks are great. small ones are crap. Noctua's towers are amazing...and those are not as big as they can get. you can get custom ones that are flatter, longer, and due to the increase in dispersion work better.

Yeah, Noctuas can easily cool the hottest Threadrippers on air.

Not to sound like a mac head, but check out the heatsink in the new Mac Pro.

 

[bit_user]

When they say 2x's faster (really 4x's faster from everything I read) they are usually referring to GFLOPs. These are in the compute units. Unfortunately with GCN very few games could actually use all those compute units, so they went unused. rDNA is a much more efficient architecture, so it will get closer to it's true theoretical performance target.

I don't believe it'll literally have 2x the raw fp32 GFLOPS. That GPU would just be too huge, especially considering that it also has to add ray tracing.

I think they're probably accounting for RDNA's efficiency improvements, in that 2x number they cite.

 

[bit_user]

Throw in SSDs and the ipc gains of zen 2 and this generation looks to be a solid upgrade that really is going toe to toe with mainstream gaming pc. Yes if you can spend $2500+ on a gaming pc you can probably match and beat their specs but a the <$500 range where I expect these things to launch at they are going to be a great deal.

When the new consoles ship, they'll probably be comparable to gaming PCs costing at least $1100 (excluding OS and peripherals, which easily add another $200). By end of life, they'll probably be rivaled by PCs in the $600 - $700 range (again, just base hardware costs). Of course, a lot of us don't build PCs completely from scratch. Obviously, I'm also excluding a monitor.

Consoles have always offered good value for money. It's just a question of what level of performance you consider acceptable.

 

[bit_user]

total power draw might not actually change all that much.

XBox One X is supposedly rated at 245 W.

Xbox One X: Everything you need to know

The Xbox One X (née Scorpio) is here! But is it enough to take down the PS4 Pro?

arstechnica.com

If you just add a Ryzen 3700X CPU (65 W) and a RX 5700 XT (225 W), you get 290 W. And that probably doesn't even deliver quite the graphics horsepower people are inferring it to have.

I'm not saying it definitely will burn 290 W - just showing how it easily gets there. Maybe the GPU is more in line with the RX 5700, at 180 W. So, that puts it back at 245 W, but with a lot less graphical muscle than everyone's expecting.

Anyway, the bold case design certainly supports the idea that it's going to be pumping out a fair bit more heat.

 

[beckerjr]

Most likely not even near 5700... two times faster than previous generation console in gpu... that means something like 5500 speed.

The 5700 non XT is 7.9 TFlops. This will be around 12. So actually way above.

 

[nofanneeded]

That's big pocket territory, mate. You shouldn't be comparing that to mainstream.

big pocket what? companies will never accept AIO that will leak so often . and will never accept AIO that need to be replaced so often.

There are Reliable AIO and they exist today in Desktop Workstation for companies as well From DELL and HP.

 

[nofanneeded]

Cases like this were a bit in vogue, maybe 5+ years ago. The only one I specifically remember is the FT03 Fortress, by Silverstone:

https://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=291

Edit: I see @blasjw beat me to it. Well, I'm keeping my post for its link.


Yeah, but it holds a video card and a standard PC powersupply. Because it's older, it can even hold 3x 3.5" HDDs and one 2.5" drive . The XBox has an APU, and its PSU is going to be either a custom form factor or it could even be an external power brick. The XBox will also save space by not having pluggable DIMMs and using either a M.2 NVMe drive or maybe that will also be soldered.

Basically, the XBox has the benefit of being fully-custom hardware. But, you said you wanted a PC case, so that's necessarily going to be bigger. Make up your mind.

The Silverstone is four times the size of this Xbox if you look carefully. you are just comparing the shape not the size

 

[Phaaze88]

big pocket what?

People with MONEY.

companies will never accept AIO that will leak so often

I never put a number on the failure rate, but when you're mass producing a new product to market to the masses, some failures are completely unavoidable and should be expected.
These devices have improved since they first came out, but they're not infallible. The odds of one leaking nowadays is darn low(say, less than 10%), but the probability is still there, and that's still enough to turn some people away from using them.

There are Reliable AIO and they exist today in Desktop Workstation for companies as well From DELL and HP.

Say what you will about how 'reliable' AIOs are, they're still more costly and inferior to air cooling in the reliability department:
1)Fan(s) failure
-air cooler: simply get another fan.
-AIO: ditto

2)Heatsink/Radiator
-air cooler: lasts a lifetime
-AIO: ditto

3)Pump failure
-air cooler: What's a pump?
-AIO: the user HAS to replace the entire unit. They also can't/shouldn't continue to use the PC until this is settled. These devices are good for about 3-5 years under normal use.

4)Leaks(very low chance, but still there)
-air cooler: What is liquid?
-AIO: potential to ruin the rest of the hardware in the PC depending on one's luck. Also warrants a replacement, unless the user's going to remedy the leak themselves...?

Air coolers only lose out when dealing with more than 250w of waste heat, where liquid has no contest.


Back on topic: Wow, Microsoft's naming scheme for this one... they should've just called the Xbox One Series X the Triple X...

 

[nofanneeded]

People with MONEY.


I never put a number on the failure rate, but when you're mass producing a new product to market to the masses, some failures are completely unavoidable and should be expected.
These devices have improved since they first came out, but they're not infallible. The odds of one leaking nowadays is darn low(say, less than 10%), but the probability is still there, and that's still enough to turn some people away from using them.


Say what you will about how 'reliable' AIOs are, they're still more costly and inferior to air cooling in the reliability department:
1)Fan(s) failure
-air cooler: simply get another fan.
-AIO: ditto

2)Heatsink/Radiator
-air cooler: lasts a lifetime
-AIO: ditto

3)Pump failure
-air cooler: What's a pump?
-AIO: the user HAS to replace the entire unit. They also can't/shouldn't continue to use the PC until this is settled. These devices are good for about 3-5 years under normal use.

4)Leaks(very low chance, but still there)
-air cooler: What is liquid?
-AIO: potential to ruin the rest of the hardware in the PC depending on one's luck. Also warrants a replacement, unless the user's going to remedy the leak themselves...?

Air coolers only lose out when dealing with more than 250w of waste heat, where liquid has no contest.


Back on topic: Wow, Microsoft's naming scheme for this one... they should've just called the Xbox One Series X the Triple X...

your point ? we will wait and see , if MS chose to put AIO in it all this conversation is nothing.

 

[bit_user]

The Silverstone is four times the size of this Xbox if you look carefully. you are just comparing the shape not the size

I already addressed that. And your original post said nothing about size - seemingly concerned only with the design.

If you're not going to read my posts, please don't bother replying.

 

[bit_user]

your point ? we will wait and see , if MS chose to put AIO in it all this conversation is nothing.

@Phaaze88 's point seems to be that liquid cooling in workstations and servers can be overbuilt to minimize the chance of leaks, because the customers of those systems can afford to pay a lot for it. However, when you're building something for the mass market, every penny counts.

I agree with @Phaaze88 - there's no need for liquid cooling and no way that MS would take on the liability, extra expense, or additional weight of using it. The 1st gen PS3 had a 380 W power supply. The PS4 Pro supposedly ran at up to 310 W. That shows what you can get away with, in an air-cooled console.

As for the shape, I think MS is probably planning on refreshing on 5 nm, within a year or so, which should reduce power dissipation and let them use a more conventional case design.

 

[nofanneeded]

@Phaaze88 's point seems to be that liquid cooling in workstations and servers can be overbuilt to minimize the chance of leaks, because the customers of those systems can afford to pay a lot for it. However, when you're building something for the mass market, every penny counts.

I agree with @Phaaze88 - there's no need for liquid cooling and no way that MS would take on the liability, extra expense, or additional weight of using it. The 1st gen PS3 had a 380 W power supply. The PS4 Pro supposedly ran at up to 310 W. That shows what you can get away with, in an air-cooled console.

As for the shape, I think MS is probably planning on refreshing on 5 nm, within a year or so, which should reduce power dissipation and let them use a more conventional case design.

I still bet looking at that case it has AIO inside . there is no other explanation for that tall Design. had it been heat sink it would have been half that height.

as for shape , I meant the case shape , looking at the new xbox pic ,and the controller besides it yo can easily gess its Dimensions , it is very small case , not like the silverstone one.

the new Xbox is about

15cm (w)X15cm(L) X 30 cm (H)

 

[cryoburner]

XBox One X is supposedly rated at 245 W.

If you just add a Ryzen 3700X CPU (65 W) and a RX 5700 XT (225 W), you get 290 W. And that probably doesn't even deliver quite the graphics horsepower people are inferring it to have.

I'm not saying it definitely will burn 290 W - just showing how it easily gets there. Maybe the GPU is more in line with the RX 5700, at 180 W. So, that puts it back at 245 W, but with a lot less graphical muscle than everyone's expecting.

Anyway, the bold case design certainly supports the idea that it's going to be pumping out a fair bit more heat.

It's certainly possible that the system could be putting out more heat than an Xbox One X. Or maybe they just want it to run cooler and quieter and more reliably. Or they want something that looks new and unique, rather than the generic av-equipment styling that consoles have been using for the last decade.

In any case, you probably can't just add up the wattage of a desktop graphics card and CPU to estimate the power draw. Consoles tend to be more efficient for a given level of performance, in part because the GPU and CPU may be integrated into a single chip, and all components will likely reside on the same circuit board. A lot of power could also be saved by giving the GPU additional graphics cores, while keeping the clock rates reasonable. I would expect power draw to be roughly similar to the One X, but its hard to say for sure.

The 5700 non XT is 7.9 TFlops. This will be around 12. So actually way above.

The 5700XT when boosting can provide around 10 TFlops of 32 bit compute performance. However, as far as actual performance gains are concerned, that's not necessarily an accurate way to measure graphics performance, since it uses a newer architecture with different performance characteristics compared to what the existing consoles have. The Radeon RX 580, for example, is likely pretty similar to the hardware in an Xbox One X at over 6 TFlops, but the RX 5500 tends to be slightly faster in games, at only around 5 TFlops. And the 5700XT at 10Flops tends to be over twice as fast as an RX 580 at 6TFlops in actual games. And then there's Nvidia's cards using their own architecture, where a 2070 SUPER at just around 9TFlops usually outperforms a 5700 XT. So you can't really compare TFlop numbers to get an accurate representation of how performance will compare between different architectures, especially since it sounds like the console will be using an updated version of the RDNA architecture.

I still bet looking at that case it has AIO inside . there is no other explanation for that tall Design. had it been heat sink it would have been half that height.

Another explanation is that there's simply a stack of fins, perhaps much like you would find on a typical graphics card, connected to the CPU/GPU by heat-pipes and maybe a vapor chamber. Again, the main purpose of water cooling is to allow the heatsink to be positioned away from the processor within a standard case, with the water carrying heat to that other location. This device isn't using standard components though, so there would be no need for that. They can position the vents, cooling fins and processor however they want, allowing outside air to be drawn directly over the circuit board area and out the top, perhaps even using only a single fan.