Question XMP - Working?

THRobinson

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Just in passing read a comment about XMP for memory, with regards to newer systems, and wondered if my old Asus H97-Plus had such a thing and sure enough it did. I switched it from AUTO to XMP, save and reboot... didn't change anything else but before rebooting the BIOS asked to confirm changed made and was about a dozen items on the list.

Is that it? I don't need to change anything? Does it make things better than AUTO? How do I know it worked or by how much it is better?

Typically, I load BIOS defaults, maybe change a few minor items like boot order, UEFI or something and nothing else. Not sure if this on my system makes a difference or not.
 

Aeacus

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XMP only works if your RAM supports it.

To know what RAM you have, download and run HWinfo64,
link: https://www.hwinfo.com/download/

"Summary only" will do, when you launch it.

There, you can see the RAM you have. Running AUTO means that your DDR3 RAM, most likely runs at 1066/1333/1600 Mhz. But enabling XMP puts your RAM on 1866/2000/2133 etc Mhz, depending what it supports.

RAM speed is the "Clock" in HWinfo64. And since you have Double Data Rate RAM, you need to multiply the clock by 2, to get the effective speed.
E.g i have DDR4 3000 Mhz RAM, which my HWinfo64 shows to operate at 1500 Mhz.
 

THRobinson

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Well, I see XMP listed... after I posted I reset the system back to BIOS Defaults to be safe.

So this is at default.

79CBR8X.png


There, enabled and rebooted
22UNbBn.png


I see a few small changes...

Clock went from 665.1Mhz to 800Mhz... CR from 1T to 2T... tRFC 174 to 208

Few CPU changes but I think those things fluctuate anyways, since it's a Xeon I don't think those can be OC'd which is fine. I don't really want to OC anything but, if stuf isn't running as fast as it was designed to well, then I wanna change it. :D

I'd rather stable/safe though than push anything.

I am looking to get a new system soon... went back to school again so budget tight so may be a while.

That said, looking at my system and for games like Fortnite... just curious... would you update the GPU to an RTX 3070 first? or the CPU/Mobo/Ram first to an i5-13600k?

Sucks, that the CPU/Mobo/Ram cost the same as a GPU but if I buy a GPU I'm looking for used (non-mining) for half the price to save a few bucks.
 
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Aeacus

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I see a few small changes...

Clock went from 665.1Mhz to 800Mhz... CR from 1T to 2T... tRFC 174 to 208

Data shows that on AUTO, your RAM runs at 1333 Mhz while on XMP, it runs at 1600 Mhz. Also, your RAM is built to operate up to 1600 Mhz (that much i can read out from RAM part number).

In real world application, there is 0 noticeable difference between 1333 Mhz and 1600 Mhz.

Found one old video that shows 1333 vs 1600 Mhz in games;

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X57eUy96JW0


While 1600 Mhz RAM at 1st produces ~10 FPS more, at 0:42 mark, 1333 Mhz RAM produces ~10 FPS more. So, overall, 0 difference. Also, at ~120 FPS, i doubt anyone can see a 10 FPS difference.
Only difference would be in synthetic benchmarks and in results numbers. So, it's up to you if to run your RAM at 1333 Mhz or 1600 Mhz. Since you don't loose on RAM responsiveness (CAS Latency remains the same, 9), you might as well run your RAM at 1600 Mhz.

I'd rather stable/safe though than push anything.

Running RAM at their designed speed, which for you is 1600 Mhz, isn't "pushing" RAM. Especially since 1600 Mhz is one of the JEDEC default speeds.
E.g my Haswell build (full specs with pics in my sig), is running 1866 Mhz RAM and that is above JEDEC standard, thus an actual RAM "OC" (which i've enabled via XMP).

That said, looking at my system and for games like Fortnite... just curious... would you update the GPU to an RTX 3070 first? or the CPU/Mobo/Ram first to an i5-13600k?

PSU make and model (or part number) is? Also, how old the PSU is, and was the PSU bought new or used/refurbished?
Since PSU defines which GPU you can go for.

Also, what's your monitor resolution and refresh rate?
Since this is the 2nd part that tells if going with better GPU is worthwhile or not.

but if I buy a GPU I'm looking for used (non-mining) for half the price to save a few bucks.

Buying an used GPU is a bad idea. And just because GPU is listed as "non-mining", i'd not take it at face value. Most used GPUs are old mining GPUs, especially RTX 30-series GPUs.

Here's GamersNexus answer to if to buy mining GPUs (at 11:42):

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1Yp6pQRdns


Here, i'll take RTX 3070 as an example;

Brand new, RTX 3070, in a sealed package + warranty has MSRP of $499.

Now, is ~400 bucks good for used mining RTX 3070? Not by a mile.
To me, any used GPU, which i could buy, has instant 50% off of MSRP since the GPU doesn't come with a warranty and i have to take a risk. So, for RTX 3070 at MSRP of 499, 250 bucks is what i'd pay for.
And i even don't look at mining GPUs, unless their price is good for me. Meaning another 50% off of used GPU price. So, for used RTX 3070 of 250 bucks, 125 bucks would be what i'd pay for mining RTX 3070.

Lets say you fork out 400 bucks for that mining RTX 3070. You can use it for e.g 2 weeks (or 4 weeks, or a month) and GPU dies. Then what? You do not have any warranty, so, no chance to get GPU replaced. And i doubt that GPU seller is going to refund you either (since they have 0 obligation to do so). At this point (if not far earlier), the reality will hit, that you should've gone with new GPU instead, for the redundancy it comes with (warranty, usually 2 years). Unless you have money to spare to get yourself 2nd working GPU.

Lets look at it on another perspective:
Why miner is selling the GPU in the first place? GPU is still a good "tool" to make money. Unless, there is an issue with GPU and it isn't "good enough" for the miner anymore. Perhaps miner also knows the signs of GPU starting to "fade out" (die), and it's time to get rid of the GPU. Preferably at the same price as MSRP, (without incurring any loss, but keeping all the profits GPU made for them).

All-in-all, regarding PC hardware, never buy used: PSU and GPU. Unless you have the money to buy 2nd one, once the used one dies on you. Though, on PSU part, things are worse since when PSU goes sky high, it has the magical ability to fry everything it is connected to. Aka your whole PC. Hence why never buy used PSU, since you don't know what kind of abuse it has seen.

Another thought;
Miners are the sole reason why we have GPU prices so high and why almost all RTX 30-series GPUs were sold out at launch, after which, scalpers put some of them at sale, 2-3 times of MSRP. Helping miner to get rid of the useless stuff (read: burned out GPU), isn't doing any of us (gamers) any favors. Instead, it shows miners that they can get away with it and same, more-or-less, happened again, when RTX 40-series launched.
So, besides risk to your wallet, there's moral reasons as well. At least to me.
 

THRobinson

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So... RAM after all these years was running slower than paid for... Sigh. Well, I embrace the extra 1-10fps. :D

My current build is in the signature, which I had to look at because can't remember what PSU I have. :D

EVGA SuperNOVA GS 650W... bought new.

Actually... I rebuilt my PC on PCPartPicker so I can link what I have, and what my goal is for upgrades. I plan to keep the case and the 2TB storage drive and hopefully replace everything else. You'll also notice, Canadian prices. Yup, a Canuck! So that RTX3070 jumps from $499 (which is a reasonable number) to what we Canadians have to pay, $849CAD (if in stock and on sale). Yikes, huh? That's why I'd like to buy a used one... rare but can sometimes get one $400 used which saves me enough money to buy the CPU with.

Canada is weird that way. $499 after exchange is $685, yet we still have to pay another $164 on top of that. It's like that for everything.

Anyways

Here's what I have
https://ca.pcpartpicker.com/list/pJFbsX

This is what I want to end up with eventually... minus the monitor. I want a 27" 1440, but that's likely a next year purchase.
https://ca.pcpartpicker.com/list/Gg4m9r

I have the HDD drive already, it's a D:\ for doc, music, pics etc... and I have the CPU cooler already. Usually over $100CAD here, grabbed on sale at $40CAD.
 

Aeacus

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EVGA SuperNOVA GS 650W... bought new.

Actually... I rebuilt my PC on PCPartPicker so I can link what I have, and what my goal is for upgrades. I plan to keep the case and the 2TB storage drive and hopefully replace everything else. You'll also notice, Canadian prices. Yup, a Canuck! So that RTX3070 jumps from $499 (which is a reasonable number) to what we Canadians have to pay, $849CAD (if in stock and on sale). Yikes, huh? That's why I'd like to buy a used one... rare but can sometimes get one $400 used which saves me enough money to buy the CPU with.

Regards of upgrading your GPU, you have two issues with your PSU:
  1. Your EVGA GS 650W has a fault, whereby your PSU doesn't have OCP (Over Current Protection) on any of the rails. This is a very serious issue and your PSU should not be used. EGVA GS 850W and up, doesn't have this OCP issue.
  2. For RTX 3070, PSU max wattage should be at least 850W. This is due to the GPU transient spikes, where RTX 30-series GPUs, can spike 2.5-3x of their normal power consumption.

What are GPU transient power spikes? A video to watch:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnRyyCsuHFQ


So, before going for new GPU, get yourself a new, good quality, 850W unit. The Corsair RM850x what you have listed, is a good PSU.

That's why I'd like to buy a used one... rare but can sometimes get one $400 used which saves me enough money to buy the CPU with.

Answer me this: when your used GPU happens to die on you (1 day/week/month) after you bought it, then what?
Fork out another 400 CAD for another used GPU, in hopes the 2nd used one doesn't die shortly after? But if 2nd one also dies on you shortly after, what's next?
Another 400 for 3rd used GPU? And so forth?

Or pay ~1200 CAD for brand new RTX 4070 Ti, which has warranty and a guarantee that you are covered for the warranty period (usually 2 years),
pcpp: https://ca.pcpartpicker.com/products/video-card/#sort=price&c=549

RTX 3070 Ti vs RTX 4070 Ti,
link: https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Nvidia-RTX-3070-Ti-vs-Nvidia-RTX-4070-Ti/4116vs4146

Btw, RTX 4070 Ti is minimum, if you want to get ~144 FPS @ 1440p, which your planned LG monitor is (144 Hz). RTX 3070 Ti would give you ~80 FPS @ 1440p (in this case, might go with cheaper, 75Hz 1440p monitor).
RTX 4070 Ti review: https://www.techspot.com/review/2601-nvidia-geforce-rtx-4070-ti/

Oh, RTX 4070 Ti can live fine with 750W PSU.

That said, looking at my system and for games like Fortnite... just curious... would you update the GPU to an RTX 3070 first? or the CPU/Mobo/Ram first to an i5-13600k?

Rather than forking out loads of money, good upgrade would also be:
  1. Good quality 650W PSU, e.g Seasonic Focus/PRIME (to get rid of the no OCP of your current PSU);
  2. GTX 1660 Ti
  3. 1080p, 144 Hz monitor

This would make your build solid 1080p gaming rig, essentially equal to my current, Skylake rig (full specs with pics in my sig). Since your Xeon is equal to my i5-6600K.

Further upgrade would be Core i5-13400 with MoBo that supports DDR4. So, that you don't have to waste money on expensive DDR5, instead, you can buy much cheaper DDR4.

Of course, there's always the thing between what one "needs" and what one "wants". Everybody wants high-end, expensive hardware, but question is, do you really "need" it? Or can you make due with less/cheaper hardware? :unsure:
 

THRobinson

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Hahah... you lost me at $1200CAD for a video card... that will never happen even if I were rich. Again, right now in school again so, $1200 for anything is unlikely.

PSU, damn... thought mine was on the PSU Tier list, maybe not the top of the list but near the top. I did check the list for the 850w which is why I picked that one, that, and was the cheapest of the Gold+ units.

My original upgrade plan was cheaper... but fell into the "for just a bit more" spiral. Originally 12th gen, but the 13th had such a jump in performance I switched to that. B660 board but started to read about PCIe lanes and such and many video reviews saying so close in price anyways get the Z690... BUT... then so many reviews of Z690's complaining about how you need a 12th gen first to be able to flash them to work with 13th, so looked at boards with that flashback button and they were worth as much as Z790 boards so, Z790.

I could go mATX... honestly all I need is a single M2 slot, a slot for video and an extra slot just in case (ie need a network card installed). I wanted one with a heatsink for the M2 but can also buy the heat sinks. That said, the Asus mATX is $30 cheaper than the Gigabyte ATX, and a heatsink is what, $20-30? so may as well get the Gigabyte. No price listed for the DDR4 version, maybe discontinued? It shows in the list just no Candian vendors.

Anyways...

CPU/RAM/MOBO combos

Z790 with DDR5 5600 ($835)
https://ca.pcpartpicker.com/list/sPNZPX

Z790 with DDR4 3600 (mATX no heat sink) ($745)
https://ca.pcpartpicker.com/list/4pxpRv

Z690 with DDR4 (with flashback) ($795)
https://ca.pcpartpicker.com/list/4pxpRv

So, Z690 makes little sense if going DDR4.

Asus board is an mATX, which again is fine... but slower ethernet, gotta buy an M2 heatsink, not sure if affects number of fan headers. So between DDR4 and DDR5, $90 - $20 (sink) so only $70.

CPU is $410CAD... sadly a big chunk that price wise has not budged in months. That I can't really budge much on... too big a performance boost over 12th gen, and look at my system now... obviously I'll probably have the next system for 8-10yrs so makes sense to splurge a bit.

GTX 1660Ti... ? That's almost a side-step vs an upgrade.

Originally thought RTX2070Super, move up 1 gen and 1 tier from my GTX1060... but even used they were $350-400!

Basically I look at the ranking of cards, find my card and I won't upgrade unless the next card is at least halfway between mine and 1st ranked. Mine is 106th, the 2070s is 40th, so that's a good upgrade. But used, prices are way too high, and for $50 more, the 2080/3070 were an option.

I get what you're saying about used vs new... but $1200 isn't happening. Neither is $900. That's a want not a need. :D

Honestly though.... I'm using a 4th gen system. Built it to last, been good and solid and still performs well. That said... pretty much anything is an upgrade. I think my CPU is what, 290 on the speed ranking list, and a 12th gen 12600k is 30th so... even that would save some money and give me a BIg jump in performance.

12th Gen DDR4
https://ca.pcpartpicker.com/list/FjVRsL

Going cheapest route. $580CAD right now ($30 rebate for ASRock board). Saves $165...
 

Aeacus

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PSU, damn... thought mine was on the PSU Tier list, maybe not the top of the list but near the top.

Oh, yours is listed there. But not at the top, but instead in Tier D,
link: https://forums.tomshardware.com/thr...er-list-rev-14-8-final-update-jul-21.3624094/

And Tier D because you have 650W unit. If you'd have 850W unit, yours would be Tier A. Like i said, issue is the lack of OCP on 550/650W EVGA GS units.

that, and was the cheapest of the Gold+ units.

If you pay peanuts - you will get monkeys.

Here are two 650W, 80+ Gold, fully modular PSUs, in CAD,
pcpp: https://ca.pcpartpicker.com/products/compare/RzfFf7,n34BD3/

Can you tell me, why Seasonic unit costs ~65 CAD more than Enermax unit?
Also, which of the two would you buy? And why?

I wanted one with a heatsink for the M2

Why this requirement? :unsure: Do you want to bake the M.2 drive?

then so many reviews of Z690's complaining about how you need a 12th gen first to be able to flash them to work with 13th, so looked at boards with that flashback button and they were worth as much as Z790 boards so, Z790.

BIOS flashback button is there to revert BIOS back to older version, which is complete opposite what you should be doing, when running 13th gen on intel 600-series MoBo. Instead, you have to run latest BIOS to get 13th gen working on Intel 600-series chipset, NOT to revert BIOS version back, to older one.

Flashback is viable when something messes up the BIOS update and bricks the MoBo, Then flashback button can be used to revert the BIOS update back to original (factory) one.

GTX 1660Ti... ? That's almost a side-step vs an upgrade.

Originally thought RTX2070Super, move up 1 gen and 1 tier from my GTX1060... but even used they were $350-400!

Basically I look at the ranking of cards, find my card and I won't upgrade unless the next card is at least halfway between mine and 1st ranked.

Strange way to determinate GPU upgrade viability. :unsure:

Prior of me having my current GTX 1660 Ti, i did have GTX 1060 3GB GPU. My GTX 1060 3GB gave me ~60 FPS @ 1080p, while my current GTX 1660 Ti gives me easy 144 FPS @ 1080p. More than viable upgrade when you stick with 1080p. But if you have money to burn, sure, you can use your method of determinating which GPU is viable for an upgrade and which isn't. In the end, your money.

I get what you're saying about used vs new... but $1200 isn't happening. Neither is $900. That's a want not a need. :D

RTX 30-series GPUs are overpriced due to the scalpers, even used GPUs. So, next in line would be RTX 40-series. Cheapest of them is 4070 Ti, which is too expensive to you. So, you're left with either RTX 20-series or GTX 16-series. GTX 16-series i did suggest; is priced fairly and gives good performance boost, but not good enough for you. So, RTX 20-series then?

Also, i already explained the issues with used GPUs. If you have enough money to buy new used GPU once old one dies, go ahead. I, for one, am not rich enough to keep buying used GPUs once old one dies. I'd rather buy new GPU and have a guarantee that if it dies, i can get replacement under warranty, cost free.

I think my CPU is what, 290 on the speed ranking list, and a 12th gen 12600k is 30th so... even that would save some money and give me a BIg jump in performance.

Do you look hardware based on some arbitrary ranking, or based on what it can actually do? :unsure:

E.g my 6th gen Core i5 is at 314th place on Userbenchmark. Do i care about that ranking? No, i do not. Since i can tell 1st hand if my CPU meets my needs or not. And it does, just fine. Thus, for me, there is 0 need for me to upgrade my CPU, despite my CPU "only having" 4 cores and 4 threads.

If you have the money and if you want it, sure, go ahead.

Though, this is what i'd suggest CPU-MoBo-RAM wise:

PCPartPicker Part List

CPU: Intel Core i5-13400 2.5 GHz 10-Core Processor ($309.99 @ Memory Express)
Motherboard: Gigabyte B760M DS3H DDR4 Micro ATX LGA1700 Motherboard ($163.98 @ Amazon Canada)
Memory: Corsair Vengeance LPX 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR4-3200 CL16 Memory ($99.99 @ Amazon Canada)
Total: $573.96

Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2023-03-23 16:50 EDT-0400
 

THRobinson

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TierD? Sheesh... though was it TierD 8yrs ago? or just TierD now by comparison to what's out? Regardless, if I buy another PSU I'll get that Corsair 850w. I won't get that until ready to buy a GPU though so for now, not a concern. I mean... It's worked 100% fine for 8yrs, I'm not overly worried about it until the GPU get's replaced. Probably do both at the same time.

M.2 Heatsink wise... when I was looking up those drives and NVMe etc, many articles mentioned heat issues and performance throttle. If an extra few bucks makes it run better and last longer (especially since it holds my data) then I'll spend the extra few bucks. Right now I have a 250GB SSD as my C:\ for apps/games and a 2TB HDD as a D:\ for files and works great. Downside is, for example I finally got Borderlands 3, and it doesn't fit. 95GB game so either I run it off the HDD or I dump Fortnite which I play with my nieces/nephews so it stays. Figured if I get a 500GB, may as well go NVMe for about $60CAD for the WD SN770.

Flashback button, according to the internet "BIOS Flashback is a feature found on certain motherboards that lets you update the BIOS without requiring a CPU, GPU, or memory installed." Which would be exactly what I want if I have a motherboard with a BIOS designed for 12th gen, but I have a 13th gen CPU. I need to be able to flash the BIOS without a CPU to the current version that detects/uses the 13th gen.

GPU and money to burn... well, agree to disagree. I think spending $300 on a card moderately better isn't great, just means I need to upgrade it sooner. Also, the RTX 2060 is the same price and ranked higher up. Yes, I know the number on these sites are sometimes fudged a bit but, they're not far off. 12GB even better but again, always something better for "just a bit more money"... and then your budget goes bye-bye. :D

Hardware picking wise... 100% ranking. How else would I pick? I don't have access to the stuff to test with :D. Also, it's a viable resource, I mean... is the i5-13600k faster than my Xeon? yes. Is it ranked higher? yes. Can I tell from that ranking and it's place on the list how much of a difference I'll likely see in performance? yes. It's so far up the list I should see a big difference. And higher on the list also means (to me) the system will stay relevant longer. Can I get a cheaper upgrade? yes. Will I have to upgrade that sooner? yes. So if a system lasts 6yrs instead of 8yrs... did I save any money? Though I guess works both ways... pay less upgrade more - vs - pay more upgrade less... two sides of the same coin.

Basically, I try to get up as high on the list as my budget allows so my hardware lasts longer. I'm sure there are better strategies, but, I did it for this system, and it worked out well.

Board wise, B760M... see this is where forums get tricky. I posted about the B660 vs Z690 and it was hands down "don't waste money on the B660" because of the whole PCIe rails and throttling the speed of the GPU when I upgrade and a few other features. They also said spend the extra and get 3600 not 3200 ram.

It seems to bounce back/forth on here with opinions... though everyone seems to have decent reasoning behind it.

Um, I was thinking
https://ca.pcpartpicker.com/list/WXwBY9

I do some Fusion360 and LOTS of video encoding, which some software apps now will enable the iGPU of the CPU to help with encoding. Otherwise, I was gonna get the i5-13600f but because this system is primarily work not gaming there are a few factors like that to consider.

The i5-12600k with the same system is $100 cheaper than that. Still a viable upgrade over what I have.
 

THRobinson

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Surprised RYZEN hasn't been mentioned. I tried AMD once, oh... 20+yrs ago and had SO many issues. Otherwise, been using intel since first built my 75hmz, then the 200MMX system, and up... That said, I understand Intel's numbering... I have no idea what the Ryzen equivalents are.
 

Aeacus

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M.2 Heatsink wise... when I was looking up those drives and NVMe etc, many articles mentioned heat issues and performance throttle.

This depends on M.2 drive you get. Best (and only for me) is Samsung. WD M.2 drives seem to be good as well. Not as great as Samsung drives, but good enough. All others fall short. Mainly in performance aspect but often on reliability aspect as well. Only thing going for other drives, are their cheaper price, compared to the best (Samsung).

As far as heatsinks for M.2 goes; if M.2 drive doesn't come with heatsink off the bat - it doesn't need one. On the contrary, slapping heatsink on, can actually trap the heat within the drive, worsening considerably the cooling of a drive. Thus, "baking" the drive.

If an extra few bucks makes it run better and last longer (especially since it holds my data) then I'll spend the extra few bucks. Right now I have a 250GB SSD as my C:\ for apps/games and a 2TB HDD as a D:\ for files and works great. Downside is, for example I finally got Borderlands 3, and it doesn't fit. 95GB game so either I run it off the HDD or I dump Fortnite which I play with my nieces/nephews so it stays. Figured if I get a 500GB, may as well go NVMe for about $60CAD for the WD SN770.

My drives are as follows:
OS drive - Samsung 970 Evo Plus 2TB (M.2 NVMe)
data drive - Samsung 870 Evo 2TB (2.5" SATA)
backup drive - Crucial MX500 1TB (2.5" SATA)
old OS drive - Samsung 960 Evo 500GB (M.2 NVMe)

Regarding 2.5" SATA SSDs, Samsung is best, while Crucial MX500 is cheaper alternative. MX500 does perform almost same as Samsung drive, until it isn't filled with data. If it's near full, performance drops.

960 Evo, at the time of it's purchase, was best cost-to-performance M.2 NVMe SSD. But as time moved forward, the 500 GB size got small to me, so, i bought the new best cost-to-performance ratio SSD, my 970 Evo Plus 2TB.
970 Evo Plus review: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/samsung-970-evo-plus-ssd,5608.html

Now, there are faster M.2 NVMe drives out there, like 980 Pro and even 990 Pro, but those also cost accordingly.

Flashback button, according to the internet "BIOS Flashback is a feature found on certain motherboards that lets you update the BIOS without requiring a CPU, GPU, or memory installed." Which would be exactly what I want if I have a motherboard with a BIOS designed for 12th gen, but I have a 13th gen CPU. I need to be able to flash the BIOS without a CPU to the current version that detects/uses the 13th gen.

Oh, that thing. Yes, i've heard of it. Here, i confused it with actual feature, where you can easily roll back the latest BIOS update, to earlier version. Though, the naming of this thing is counter-intuitive, since "flash back" means going backwards. It should be named "flash forward" or even "fee flash", since you don't need any other hardware, except MoBo, to update BIOS.

GPU and money to burn... well, agree to disagree. I think spending $300 on a card moderately better isn't great, just means I need to upgrade it sooner. Also, the RTX 2060 is the same price and ranked higher up. Yes, I know the number on these sites are sometimes fudged a bit but, they're not far off. 12GB even better but again, always something better for "just a bit more money"... and then your budget goes bye-bye. :D

Or, you can use same site and order the GPU list by Value,
link: https://gpu.userbenchmark.com/

This way, you can see which GPU offers the best price-to-performance ratio.

At the time of me looking the Value list, RTX 4070 Ti is at #6

Hardware picking wise... 100% ranking. How else would I pick? I don't have access to the stuff to test with :D. Also, it's a viable resource, I mean... is the i5-13600k faster than my Xeon? yes. Is it ranked higher? yes. Can I tell from that ranking and it's place on the list how much of a difference I'll likely see in performance? yes. It's so far up the list I should see a big difference. And higher on the list also means (to me) the system will stay relevant longer. Can I get a cheaper upgrade? yes. Will I have to upgrade that sooner? yes. So if a system lasts 6yrs instead of 8yrs... did I save any money? Though I guess works both ways... pay less upgrade more - vs - pay more upgrade less... two sides of the same coin.

Better source would be reading the review, since in review, the hardware is put on to the test, comparing it to other hardware in a more methodical way.
i5-13600K review: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/intel-core-i9-13900k-i5-13600k-cpu-review
i5-13400 review: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/intel-core-i5-13400-core-i5-13400f-cpu-review

Board wise, B760M... see this is where forums get tricky. I posted about the B660 vs Z690 and it was hands down "don't waste money on the B660" because of the whole PCIe rails and throttling the speed of the GPU when I upgrade and a few other features. They also said spend the extra and get 3600 not 3200 ram.

Essentially, almost since the dawn of time, Intel MoBo chipsets have been as follows;
H - home
B - business
Z - enthusiast
X - enterprise (Xeon)
C, P, Q - server/enterprise (Xeons)

And series tell how feature rich the chipset is. E.g 600-series;
H610 - barebones
B660 - good middle ground
H670 - notch down from the top (and prior to 600-series, didn't offer CPU OC either)
Z690 - top-of-the line, packed with loads of features (until 600-series, only chipset to offer CPU OC)

Another example on 100-series (which i use). High-end naming scheme was a bit different, but idea is the same:
H110 - barebones
B150 - middle ground
H170 - high-end, except CPU OC
Z170 - high-end, with CPU OC

DDR4 speed wise, 3200 Mhz is tops i'd go for. Any faster offers diminishing returns.
A video to watch:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D_Yt4vSZKVk


Um, I was thinking
https://ca.pcpartpicker.com/list/WXwBY9

I do some Fusion360 and LOTS of video encoding, which some software apps now will enable the iGPU of the CPU to help with encoding. Otherwise, I was gonna get the i5-13600f but because this system is primarily work not gaming there are a few factors like that to consider.

How about getting 64 GB of RAM instead? Since 32 GB is in a weird spot, too much for gaming but too little for proper 3D render.

The i5-12600k with the same system is $100 cheaper than that. Still a viable upgrade over what I have.

Every newer gen CPU, than what you currently have, is viable, in terms of better performance. Even 7th, 8th, 9th, 10th and 11th gen CPUs. :LOL:
E.g yours vs i7-7700K: https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Xeon-E3-1231-v3-vs-Intel-Core-i7-7700K/m11040vs3647

Surprised RYZEN hasn't been mentioned. I tried AMD once, oh... 20+yrs ago and had SO many issues. Otherwise, been using intel since first built my 75hmz, then the 200MMX system, and up... That said, I understand Intel's numbering... I have no idea what the Ryzen equivalents are.

I, personally, do not like Ryzen. Not because it's AMD, but because what's in the CPU.

Intel CPUs have really good single- and quad-core performance. AMD won't reach that high, so, they did the 2nd best thing - adding lots of cores. This is how Ryzen 1st gen was born. And this was also turning point for Intel, who started to add more cores for their CPUs as well, in response to AMD. The "CPU core race" started from Intel 8th gen CPUs.
Prior to that, Intel had nice CPU core count per iteration, namely:
(up to, including 7th gen)
Core i3 - 2 cores, 4 threads
Core i5 - 4 cores, 4 threads
Core i7 - 4 cores, 8 threads

But 8th gen brought "CPU core race", and is as follows:
Core i3 - 4 cores, 4 threads
Core i5 - 6 cores, 6 threads
Core i7 - 6 cores, 12 threads

And latest Intel CPUs, have the P- and E-cores as well, confusing things even more. E.g 12th gen:
Core i3 - 4 P-cores, 0 E-cores, 8 threads
Core i5 - 6 P-cores, 0 E-cores, 12 threads **
** exception is i5-12600K/KF - 6 P-cores, 4 E-cores, 16 threads
Core i7 - 8 P-cores, 4 E-cores, 20 threads
Core i9 - 8 P-cores, 8 E-cores, 24 threads

Or 13th gen:
Core i3 - haven't launched yet
Core i5 - 6 P-cores, 8 E-cores, 20 threads **
** exception is i5-13400/F/T - 6 P-cores, 4 E-cores, 16 threads
Core i7 - 8 P-cores, 8 E-cores, 24 threads
Core i9 - 8 P-cores, 16 E-cores, 32 threads

But overall, going higher in SKU = better CPU.

Naming scheme wise, between Intel and AMD, it is as follows:
Ryzen 3 - Core i3
Ryzen 5 - Core i5
Ryzen 7 - Core i7
Ryzen 9 - Core i9
Another thing going on with Ryzen CPUs, and IMO, is bad, is that none of the Ryzen CPUs include iGPU in them. Unless you go with G-suffix APU. Intel CPUs have it another way around, almost all of them include iGPU, except the F-suffix CPUs.
Having iGPU inside the CPU gives a good redundancy, where when your dedicated GPU happens to die, you can hook monitor to MoBo and continue using your PC. But with almost all Ryzen builds, PC doesn't work without dedicated GPU. And when you see 0 image on screen, it is far harder to tell if issue is with GPU or other hardware (CPU, MoBo, RAM). While with Intel, you can easily check if you get image from CPU's iGPU, determinating if your GPU is toast or not.

Of course, then there is the issue of Ryzen CPUs being very capricious with RAM speed. With this, AMD plays catch-up with BIOS updates.
For Ryzen, it is common that once new chipset launches, it is incapable of supporting faster RAM speeds than JEDEC standard (2667/2933 Mhz). Instead, users have to wait until AMD releases new BIOS update, that enables them to use e.g 3200 Mhz RAM or faster. Among other optimization features, which, IMO, should be available off the bat (as it is with Intel).

For some reason AMD can not offer the same out of the box, high performance quality, as Intel does with their CPUs. These are the reasons why, i, personally, do not like nor suggest going with Ryzen.
 

THRobinson

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My SSD now is a Samsung 250GB, never had an issue. Then again, I used Kingston in my laptop and sister's PC and no issue either. From what I read, Samsung 980 vs WD SN770, the WD wins, though neither have DRAM which I heard for the OS drive is something you'd want to have. Samsun 970 EVO I think has DRam but even then in the benchmark tests WD shows to be faster. Hard to say, real world vs benchmark. The non EVO and SN770 are the same price, the EVO jumps $25.

Heatsinks, again... when researching the drives, YouTube reviewers always at some point bring up heatsinks. Never used the M.2 slot before for drives but being an open board with chips, I kinda wanna slap a heatsink on. Though I still don't get the thermal transfer tape... that thick, looks like an insulator more than a heat transfer. Rather paste.

RAM wise... 16GB is honestly probably fine, since what I do is rather basic. 64GB would be overkill. 32GB is more than I have now and 2 more slots if I really have issues. Fusion360 isn't for 3D rendering animations and such, just objects (in my case 3D Print parts and Guitars for CNC). 3600 vs 3200 wise, Corsair Vengeance LPX 2x16GB kit, the 3200 ram is $7 less than the 3600 kit. Not enough price difference to worry about. I'd rather G.Skill with bigger sinks, but, CPU fan clearance height is a factor so need the lower profile stuff. Brand wise, Corsair and G.Skill I like, not sure about other brands.

Ram Link I watched... sounds like 3600 is the fastest you'd want and 32GB for people like me who game a bit but also do basic content creator level stuff.

i7-7700k wise... ha! see... benchmark ranking is useful. :D and yup... decent jump using my method of finding my current rank and going up half the list. Though not all newer gen CPU's are a viable upgrade. You said yourself my older Xeon is ranked up the same as your newer i5-6600K. Using the ranking list I'd consider the i7-9700k CPU for sure. Though new, it costs (in Canada) $5 more than the i5-13600k. Once obsolete, the prices kinda get stuck. Heck, my ASUS 1060-6GB is listed at $1200CAD new. :D

I always see "bang for your buck" gaming rigs and always Ryzen, but never understood the concept since when I compare CPU's, to get an equivalent CPU to the Intel, it's never really cheaper. People say cheaper boards as well, but seem about the same. Ram is ram.

Well.. plenty to ponder.

PSU and GPU will be PHASE2 of the upgrade. The Corsair RM850x PSU seems to be the way to go. GPU... not sure. Last night thought well, 2070 Super was my original plan, but like mentioned before, the prices get "stuck" and buying a new 2070s is as much as a 30xx card.

CPU wise... I want the i5-13600k but need to consider the 12th gen. Board wise, I prefer ASUS, wanted the Gigabyte UD series (good reviews, nice sinks, flashback bios) but that ASRock Phantom Gaming does what I need and by far the cheapest board. RAM is the Corsair Vengeance kit mentioned. Low profile, heat sinks, relatively cheap.
 

Aeacus

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My SSD now is a Samsung 250GB, never had an issue. Then again, I used Kingston in my laptop and sister's PC and no issue either. From what I read, Samsung 980 vs WD SN770, the WD wins, though neither have DRAM which I heard for the OS drive is something you'd want to have. Samsun 970 EVO I think has DRam but even then in the benchmark tests WD shows to be faster. Hard to say, real world vs benchmark. The non EVO and SN770 are the same price, the EVO jumps $25.

WD SN770 is PCI-E 4.0 drive, while 970 Evo Plus and 980 are PCI-E 3.0 drives. 980 Pro and 990 Pro are PCI-E 4.0 drives.
Theoretically, PCI-E 4.0 has double the bandwidth over PCI-E 3.0. In practical world, difference isn't noticeable. It is only noticeable in synthetic benchmarks.

980 vs 970 Evo Plus: https://ssd.userbenchmark.com/Compa...0-Evo-Plus-NVMe-PCIe-M2-1TB/m1488476vsm693540
(I have 980 1TB as OS drive in my Haswell build.)

The biggest read/write jump would be going from 2.5" SATA SSD (~500 MB/s) to PCI-E 3.0 M2 NVMe SSD (~3500 MB/s). In reality, and when i upgraded my OS drive from 2.5" SATA to M.2 NVMe, i only barely noticed that my OS boot up time was 1-2 seconds faster. And that's it. Moving files around, playing games, game loading times etc, all seemed as fast with M.2 NVMe drive as they were with 2.5" SATA SSD.

Based on review, WS SN770 is average PCI-E 4.0 drive,
link: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/wd-black-sn770-ssd-review

Heatsinks, again... when researching the drives, YouTube reviewers always at some point bring up heatsinks. Never used the M.2 slot before for drives but being an open board with chips, I kinda wanna slap a heatsink on. Though I still don't get the thermal transfer tape... that thick, looks like an insulator more than a heat transfer. Rather paste.

Steve, from GamersNexus, answered in-depth about the heatsinks on M.2 drives. At 06:15;

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzSIfxHppPY&t=375s


E.g stickers on Samsung drives are the "heatsink sticker" type.

Thermal pad is usually used within GPUs and laptops, where there are varying levels of components and thermal pad helps to smooth them all out, for contacting heatsink. Since when using thermal paste at those instances, not all components would reach the heatsink.

On M.2 case, thermal pad can be used to "glue" the heatsink to M.2 drive, since thermal pad is somewhat adhesive. Though, do note that as thermal pad ages, it hardens and will loose it's adhesive properties.

Overall, thermal paste is always better to use, since the space between heat generating die and heatsink is minimal, while thermal pad has a lot of thickness and is far poorer in heat transfer. The thicker the pad - the worse thermal transfer.

Ram Link I watched... sounds like 3600 is the fastest you'd want and 32GB for people like me who game a bit but also do basic content creator level stuff.

Sure, if price diff between 3200 and 3600 is peanuts, might as well go with faster one. If 3600 Mhz isn't stable, you can still run it at lower frequency (3200/3000 Mhz).

Though, i have some beef with that video. Did not watch the entire video, but what little i watched, there are some bad advice in that video.
Namely the part when he talks about 1R and 2R (single- and dual-rank) RAM. While what he says about RAM ranks is true, i do not like his suggestion of buying 4x single RAM sticks and slapping them into the system, to get dual-rank. It is really bad idea to buy single RAM sticks and trying to make them work, often, it just doesn't work.

When RAM DIMMs are made, they are tested with each other and those sticks that get along well are put into sets. First set to be made is the set of 8 RAM sticks and sold as 8x RAM sticks in a set. If the set of 8 doesn't work, it's divided into half which makes up two sets of 4. If the 4x RAM sticks do work together, the are sold as 4x RAM sticks in a set. But if the set of 4 doesn't work, it's again divided into half, making two sets of 2. Two RAM sticks that work well with each other are sold as 2x RAM sticks in a set. Those RAM sticks that doesn't want to work together at all are sold as single RAM sticks.

Further reading from here: https://forums.tomshardware.com/faq...y-ram-and-xmp-profile-configurations.3398926/

i7-7700k wise... ha! see... benchmark ranking is useful. :D and yup... decent jump using my method of finding my current rank and going up half the list. Though not all newer gen CPU's are a viable upgrade. You said yourself my older Xeon is ranked up the same as your newer i5-6600K. Using the ranking list I'd consider the i7-9700k CPU for sure. Though new, it costs (in Canada) $5 more than the i5-13600k. Once obsolete, the prices kinda get stuck. Heck, my ASUS 1060-6GB is listed at $1200CAD new. :D

While 9th gen CPU would be nice upgrade, it's performance isn't comparable to latest gens, hence why going with latest gen offers best price-to-performance ratio.

Going with same gen CPU would only make sense, IF you want to keep the same MoBo and don't mind paying hefty sum for hard to find and EOL CPU.
E.g my missus'es build, Haswell, is running i5-4590 and while i've been thinking to upgrade the CPU to i7-4770K, but damn, that 4th gen Core i7 costs ~€400. :mouais: With that kind of money, i could get new CPU and MoBo, giving far more performance boost than that old Core i7 would give. Downside is, that i'd have to replace MoBo and RAM too + installing new Win, which i particularly don't want to do (nor does she want to start "fresh").

I always see "bang for your buck" gaming rigs and always Ryzen, but never understood the concept since when I compare CPU's, to get an equivalent CPU to the Intel, it's never really cheaper. People say cheaper boards as well, but seem about the same. Ram is ram.

This could only work, if the Ryzen chip inside the build is G-suffix APU. Since AMD APU is far better in graphical process, than Intel iGPU. But that means the build doesn't have dedicated GPU in it. And CPU performance is lower for AMD APU, than it is for Intel CPU.

CPU wise... I want the i5-13600k but need to consider the 12th gen. Board wise, I prefer ASUS, wanted the Gigabyte UD series (good reviews, nice sinks, flashback bios) but that ASRock Phantom Gaming does what I need and by far the cheapest board. RAM is the Corsair Vengeance kit mentioned. Low profile, heat sinks, relatively cheap.

MoBo wise, if you haven't read it yet, you can give this a nice read,
link: https://www.tomshardware.com/best-picks/best-motherboards

There are full reviews of each MoBo listed there as well.
 

THRobinson

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Based on review the SN770 is average? The end of that review you sent says "Although it may not quite saturate the PCIe 4.0 connection, WD’s Black SN770 1TB is an extremely responsive and efficient SSD that trades blows with the best of the best, but for a fraction of the price." Trading blows with the best sounds better than average.

Ram, agree... seen many videos even far back as when I built this PC comparing 2 vs 4 sticks of RAM and never seems to show any difference. I always buy a matched pair though and more than I think I need because if later on I want more ram, in 4yrs finding a matching set to what I have is gonna be harder and maybe more expensive. I always get ones with heat sinks... and since I need low profile those Corsair Vengeance sticks are pretty low. Though, and I have never used the brand before, TEAMGROUP is even cheaper and lower. by 2-3mm I think it was. Problem is I'm not sure how much I need for this cooler... every video I see says use low profile and the fan still has to sit a bit higher than the top of the cool at the front.

CPU wise, I debated finding a cheap used i7-4770k for a small boost, but I honestly don't understand how people are pricing used parts on. I debated going back to my original plan last night... GPU, go up 1 gen and up 1 tier.... so 1060OC to the 2070Super. Even used people want $300-500CAD! Which is why I started looking at 2080/3070 cards because used were around $450+. Honestly hoped given age and turnover of cards that a used RTX2070s would have been a cheap $150CAD upgrade and honestly woulda kept me happy for probably a few more years given that in games it seems to double the FPS over the 1060 I have.

I blame Borderlands3. I'm cheap and won't pay more than about $12CAD for games, so I add new games to STEAM and just wait. I'm a few years behind people sure, but still a new game to me. Thing was 95GB so had to uninstall Fortnite to make it fit the SSD (or coulda used the HDD if wanted). Then went to play and first time I had to use med-low settings to play a game. That;s when I knew, going forward, I am gonna need a faster rig.

Board wise... I don't need much in the way of fancy stuff like RGB or WiFi. Again, I just need 1 GPU slot, 1 PCIe slot just in case, 1 M.2 2880, 2 SATA, 2 ram, and a bunch of fan headers. Not sure how many I need for those... CPU fan I think has 2 plugs, case has 2 fans so, at least 4.

My only concern for the board is well, 2 things... i5-13600k either out of the box or some sorta flashback option. PCIe lanes... I don't want to eventually buy a new video card and have it run slow because the slot isn't as fast as it needs to be. Same goes for the M.2 slot.

Though I guess, looking at this... the H670 would probably work. I assume GPU used the PCIe4.0 slot. Get basically the newer version of the board I have I guess... Asus H670-Plus. That said I keep seeing people say good board, bad board, medium performance, etc... never sure what features they're looking at or if they affects me at all since again, I don't overclock and I don't visit the BIOS on a weekly basis. Turn on BIOS DEFAULTS, then I guess enabled XMP for the ram, and probably never look at the BIOS again unless an update comes out. If the board has WIFI I'll probably disable it in the BIOS, same as any RGB features if possible. So, is an extra $100 worth it for a better board? Hard to say.

The board I like, for features and lower end of the price list
Gigabyte Z790 UD AC

The board I like for pricing, has flashback
ASRock Z690 Phantom Gaming

Chipsets-1.jpg
 

Aeacus

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Based on review the SN770 is average? The end of that review you sent says "Although it may not quite saturate the PCIe 4.0 connection, WD’s Black SN770 1TB is an extremely responsive and efficient SSD that trades blows with the best of the best, but for a fraction of the price." Trading blows with the best sounds better than average.

Review summary is as follows:
The 2TB WD SN770 isn’t quite as fast as it is at 1TB, but it is still better than PCIe 3.0 drives and older 4.0 alternatives. The extra capacity is nice for the mid-range 4.0 segment especially given its efficiency. However, it can’t keep up with high-end 4.0 drives.

I always get ones with heat sinks...

RAM heatsinks are just for aesthetics.

but I honestly don't understand how people are pricing used parts on.

Based on availability. EOL products have finite stock, and the less there is - the more the price goes up. Then there's relative performance as well. E.g Celeron G550, despite being ~1 year newer than i7-4770K, is far weaker and no-one is going to buy Celeron G550 for their system. Instead, CPUs that have stood the test of time well, are in some demand and thus, their price also increases. E.g i7-2700K has equal performance to i7-4770K. Also, there are old Xeons, that are viable, IF you can find MoBo to go with them.

Again, I just need 1 GPU slot, 1 PCIe slot just in case, 1 M.2 2880, 2 SATA, 2 ram, and a bunch of fan headers. Not sure how many I need for those... CPU fan I think has 2 plugs, case has 2 fans so, at least 4.

What you describe, is mini-ITX. Fan headers wise, some mini-ITX have only few, while others have ample. And even when you don't have enough fan headers, you can always buy a fan hub, which takes 1 fan header from MoBo and multiplies it to 6-10 fans (depending on the hub).

I'm the ATX kind of a guy. Sure, it has loads of PCI-E slots and other stuff, but i like to keep my options open, just in case, in the future, i decide to step up. That also includes CPU OC (hence why i have K-series CPU and Z-series MoBo).

Though I guess, looking at this... the H670 would probably work. I assume GPU used the PCIe4.0 slot. Get basically the newer version of the board I have I guess... Asus H670-Plus. That said I keep seeing people say good board, bad board, medium performance, etc... never sure what features they're looking at or if they affects me at all since again, I don't overclock and I don't visit the BIOS on a weekly basis. Turn on BIOS DEFAULTS, then I guess enabled XMP for the ram, and probably never look at the BIOS again unless an update comes out. If the board has WIFI I'll probably disable it in the BIOS, same as any RGB features if possible. So, is an extra $100 worth it for a better board? Hard to say.

Selecting a MoBo can be difficult, if you don't do it like most do: select by price.

If that is out of the way, then there are 2 other options:
  1. Read reviews and make your decision based on reviews.
  2. Research MoBo in-depth and pick it based on your desires.

I'll explain #2 further and here, i'll describe how i picked my Skylake build MoBo.
Note: following are my personal criteria and may not match nor align to you.

  1. Brand. Out of the MoBo manufacturers, i like MSI most, so MSI MoBo it is.
  2. Chipset. Since my CPU is i5-6600K and at that time, latest was Intel 100-series, selection was between: H110, B150, H170 or Z170. Since only Z170 chipset offers CPU OC (for my K-series CPU), so Z170 chipset it is. (MSI Z170 chipset lineup, pcpp: https://ca.pcpartpicker.com/products/motherboard/#m=27&c=110&sort=name&page=1 )
  3. Price point. Within MSI, there are several Z170 chipset MoBos to choose from. From cheap end up to Godlike (yes, Godlike is most feature rich MoBo MSI makes). Since i didn't want cheapest stuff nor monkeys with it and Godlike was (and still is) very expensive, i settled in the middle.
  4. Aesthetics. Since at that time, MSI offered both black&white and black&red MoBos, i wanted to make black&red themed build, so i narrowed the selection down to those that offered proper color theme.
  5. Reviews. With selection narrowed down, i started to look up reviews and reading them, to help to make my decision.

In the end, two MoBos remained: MSI Z170A Gaming M5 and MSI Z170A Gaming M7. The M7 was quite a bit more expensive than M5, while not offering much more for the price, so, i settled with M5.
MSI Z170A Gaming M5 review: https://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/msi-z170a-gaming-m5-motherboard,4319.html

If i were to buy MoBo today, for 13th gen Core i5, i'd get MSI MAG Z790 Tomahawk WIFI DDR4 MoBo for myself, based on my needs,
specs: https://www.msi.com/Motherboard/MAG-Z790-TOMAHAWK-WIFI-DDR4/Specification

It isn't much to look at, but it has features i need. Including ample fan headers, ample USB ports (except type-C, don't care about those), ample M.2 slots, and i can remove the wi-fi module from MoBo (since i don't care about wi-fi).

Oh, i suggest that you look chipset comparison from the source (Intel);
600-series: https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/compare.html?productIds=218829,218832,218831,218833
700-series: https://ark.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ark/compare.html?productIds=229719,229720,229721

was thinking save money on the CPU, get the i5-13400, but same price ($5 difference) the faster i5-12600k could be an option.

Diff between the two is negligible,
comparison: https://cpu.userbenchmark.com/Compare/Intel-Core-i5-12600K-vs-Intel-Core-i5-13400/4120vsm1990711
 

THRobinson

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Ya, I have the full ATX case and always used ATX boards, but I bought an mATX for my sister for an i3 build (6th gen, swap the CPU and faster than mine, dammit) because she had an old DuoCore, not even a Core2Duo... took forever to boot.

Anyways... looked at it and realized it had what I needed. A slot for a video card and an extra slot or two in case I need them. Mine has 6 slots if I recall correctly... what on Earth would I use 6 slots for in a home system? My older systems (back in the 486DX/66 days) sure... video card, modem card, SCSI card, sound card, etc.... but now? Onboard sound and ethernet, SCSI is essentially dead, at most if the ethernet card fried I need a slot for that. Maybe USB ports but I no longer use my WACOM or Scanner, so, Printer, Mouse, Keyboard and a LED strip behind my desk for "ambience". Aesthetics, don't care, black case with metal sides. If it has RGB, I hope it can be turned off in the BIOS so doesn't shine through the fan vents.

Chart wise, ya... H670/Z690 or H770/Z790 look like what I'd want. I guess makes sense to pick a GPU I want and see what it uses (lanes). WTF... on the nvidia site looking at detailed specs, and doesn't seem to mention lanes at all. Google isn't very forthcoming with those details at all, mostly will a PCIe4 card work in a PCIe3 slot and that's about it.

Tomahawk was recommended to me before... though B660 version. In Canada though that board (you linked) is about $350. $200 more than that ASRock Z690 or Asus H670.

CPU wise, ya not much dif except the 12th is faster, does not need me to find a board with flashback so possibly some cheaper options, and 770 vs 730 for the iGPU, which should help with some encoding speed though that stuff is way harder to find benchmarks and comparisons for than video games.

Mainly though, if I see a board I like more that doesn't have flashback (Asus) if I get the 12th gen it doesn't matter as much. I've always been an ASUS guy, so when I first started looking, the ASUS PRIME H670-Plus was cheap and seemed to have what I needed (plus 2.5 Gb/s ethernet if I upgrade my connection speed) without the RGB and such.

That all said.. that ASRock although very bland looking... is a Z690 with flashback option for either 12/13th... PCIe5 slot, M2 slots, seems like a lot of fan headers... not sure about CPU though, think it has 1 fan and 1 watercooler header, can the watercooler header be used for the CPU fan? since mine has 2 fans on it? Rather 2 headers than a Y splitter.
 

Aeacus

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WTF... on the nvidia site looking at detailed specs, and doesn't seem to mention lanes at all. Google isn't very forthcoming with those details at all, mostly will a PCIe4 card work in a PCIe3 slot and that's about it.

Use TechPowerUP GPU database instead.
E.g RTX 2070: https://www.techpowerup.com/gpu-specs/geforce-rtx-2070.c3252

"Graphics Cards" -> "Bus Interface" shows the PCI-E revision and how many lanes the GPU uses. There's also plethora of other info about the GPU and perhaps cherry on top - all partner models of the GPU ever created as well (below specs). :sol: So, you can look up which aftermarket models have the best clocks, what the GPU dimensions are and what ports the GPU comes with.

Tomahawk was recommended to me before... though B660 version. In Canada though that board (you linked) is about $350. $200 more than that ASRock Z690 or Asus H670.

Like i said, MSI MAG Z790 Tomahawk WIFI DDR4 MoBo is best for my needs.
And for me, i'm willing to pay premium price when the product i get, matches my needs. Now, if i would be penny pincher, i wouldn't forked out €198.40 for my PC case (Corsair 760TV2 Black) or €206.80 for buying the best 650W PSU money could buy (Seasonic SSR-650TD). Instead, i would've gone with far cheaper hardware. But since i have both + plenty of other high-end (and expensive) hardware, i'm enjoying my quality products, rather than dealing with zoo filled with monkeys.

can the watercooler header be used for the CPU fan? since mine has 2 fans on it? Rather 2 headers than a Y splitter.

You need to read holy bible of PCs, to learn which of the two variants the water cooler header is:
  1. 12V 3A header
  2. anything connected to it, will run 100%

Btw, there is 0 harm using Y-splitter on MoBo fan header. Since fan headers are rated for 12V 1A and most fans operate at ~0.3A or less. When to think about it, :unsure: for a very long time, i haven't seen a consumer grade fan that would operate at 0.5A or more. Well, Delta industrial fans, for sure, exceed that Amperage rating but those fans are completely another ballpark.
 

THRobinson

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Ah so... RTX3070 is PCIex16 (Gen4) and that ASRock for example has PCIex16 (Gen5) so will more than handle that RTX3070 without throttle... likely end up with an RTX 2070 Super, but futureproofed at least.

So, for my needs... That ASRock is fine... no fancy stuff I don't need, no WiFi, no bright lights, some basic heat sinks, more than enough USB and FAN ports, works with both 12/13th gen... and no speed throttle concerns with the PCIex16 being 5th gen.

Shame no even cheaper mATX version.

Outta curiosity, you said "Sure, it has loads of PCI-E slots and other stuff, but i like to keep my options open, just in case, in the future, i decide to step up.".. what would you (theoretically) use all the slots for?

Still, not sure what the dif is between a cheap and high end board is, spec wise anyways


For example, both Z790, both 4 SATA ports, 4 USB headers, 2.5GB/s ethernet, 5xPCIe slots, etc... in terms of how much you can plug in, you don't get any more or less for a $350CAD difference in price. Better be some damn nice RGB lights and heatsinks. :D

I understand probably a difference between stuff like cheaper components, but, $250 vs $600... need more detailed reasons why the jump is worth it in a home system.

Side-by-Side, that Gigabyte UD I originally had on my build list looks better than the MSI Tomahawk.


So, again just curious... what put the MSI ahead of the Gigabyte given the MIS is $100 more? (in Canada anyways) Looks nice but since (as you said) M.2 heatsinks are bunk, it looks like the hike in price on that MSI is for all the aluminum M.2 heatsinks. :D
 

Aeacus

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So, for my needs... That ASRock is fine... no fancy stuff I don't need, no WiFi, no bright lights, some basic heat sinks, more than enough USB and FAN ports, works with both 12/13th gen... and no speed throttle concerns with the PCIex16 being 5th gen.
(y)

Outta curiosity, you said "Sure, it has loads of PCI-E slots and other stuff, but i like to keep my options open, just in case, in the future, i decide to step up.".. what would you (theoretically) use all the slots for?

There are loads of hardware that can go to PCI-E slots;
  • capture card (for Streaming)
  • sound card (for audiophiles)
  • additional GPU (SLI is dead, but 2nd GPU can be used to lessen the workload on 3D rendering and the like)
  • all sorts of control cards (e.g RGB)
  • all sorts of additional ports (e.g SATA, M.2, more fan headers, more USB headers)

At current date, most beneficial use would be additional M.2 slots, since my current MoBo "only" has 2x M.2 slots, where both are filled.

Actually, having 2x M.2 slots on a such old MoBo as mine is, is surprising, since back then, M.2 storage wasn't a thing. I also found out that my MoBo has one USB type-C port, at back I/O. USB type-C devices weren't a thing either back then. So, my MoBo, despite being old, offers a lot of features that became mainstream. Though, it also has SATA-E port. Back in 2015, it was thought that SATA-E would replace SATA, thus MSI added the port to MoBo as well, but SATA-E didn't make it and now is a dead technology. Another thing my MoBo has, which didn't have much use back then, but now is mandatory (if you want to have Win11), is TMP header. Of course, Win11 doesn't "officially" support 7th gen and older CPUs, which, IMO, is BS.

Still, not sure what the dif is between a cheap and high end board is, spec wise anyways

https://ca.pcpartpicker.com/products/compare/w93gXL,2ZgFf7/
For example, both Z790, both 4 SATA ports, 4 USB headers, 2.5GB/s ethernet, 5xPCIe slots, etc... in terms of how much you can plug in, you don't get any more or less for a $350CAD difference in price. Better be some damn nice RGB lights and heatsinks. :D

I understand probably a difference between stuff like cheaper components, but, $250 vs $600... need more detailed reasons why the jump is worth it in a home system.

AsRock vs Asus MoBo comparison: https://versus.com/en/asrock-z790-pg-lightning-d4-vs-asus-tuf-gaming-z690-plus-d4

Btw, just because Asus is far expensive in your part of the world, doesn't mean it's high-end. Both MoBos, in these nick of the woods, cost ~€230, with a price diff of only €10.
AsRock on Amazon.de: https://www.amazon.de/dp/B0BJF21VQJ
Asus on Amazon.de: https://www.amazon.de/dp/B09JVZ8L5G

And specs wise, both are essentially equal as well, mid-tier MoBos.

Side-by-Side, that Gigabyte UD I originally had on my build list looks better than the MSI Tomahawk.

https://ca.pcpartpicker.com/products/compare/WQBG3C,X6mmP6,8GH7YJ/
So, again just curious... what put the MSI ahead of the Gigabyte given the MIS is $100 more? (in Canada anyways) Looks nice but since (as you said) M.2 heatsinks are bunk, it looks like the hike in price on that MSI is for all the aluminum M.2 heatsinks. :D

Beauty is in the eye of beholder. Meaning, aesthetic taste is individual.

Like i said above, i have a brand preference.
Currently, i have two MSI MoBos (in Skylake and Haswell builds), three MSI GPUs (again, in Skylake and Haswell builds + my old GTX 1060 is also MSI), and i also have MSI monitor. Thus far, i have 0 issues with MSI products and i like their aesthetics (for the most part).

Though, did have Gigabyte PC case, once (GZ-G2 Plus specs). Haswell build was prebuilt and came in that Gigabyte PC case. But that was a poor PC case and i replaced it with Corsair 750D Airflow Edition.

Moreover, Gigabyte has made quite a lot of shenanigans with their MoBo revisions. :non:
Article: https://www.guru3d.com/news-story/gigabyte-pushing-it-a-motherboard-revision-too-far.html

And their PSUs also exploded. :non:
Gigabyte GP-P750GM and GP-P850GM.
GamersNexus covered it well when it was 1st discovered:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aACtT_rzToI


Follow-up video too:

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7JmPUr-BeEM


And 3rd video too (clearly showing how bad/serious this thing is):

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xts3pvbcFos


Heck, after public outrage, but not before, Gigabyte eventually made a recall of those time bombs,
article: https://www.tomshardware.com/news/gigabyte-full-refund-product-exchange-explosive-psus

So, no. I do not trust Gigabyte as a brand, nor am willing to use any they produce, even if hardware is given for me for free.
That's why i don't like Gigabyte.
CPU: Intel
MoBo: MSI (or Asus)
RAM: Kingston (maybe G.Skill)
GPU: Nvidia made by MSI
SSD: Samsung
HDD: Western Digital (WD), Hitachi (HGST)
PC case: Corsair, Phanteks, Be Quiet!
Fans: Corsair (only ML Pro LED series), NZXT, Arctic Cooling, Noctua, Delta Industrial
PSU: Seasonic (or Super Flower)

Monitor: MSI (or AOC)
Peripherals (KB, mice, headset etc): Corsair
Thumb drive: Kingston
Webcam: Logitech
Printer-scanner: Canon
Niche hardware (fan controller, internal hubs): Thermaltake, NZXT, Akasa
Eyecandy (custom sleeved cables): CableMod
Eyecandy (LEDs): NZXT
Dust management: DemciFlex

Smart phone: Samsung
 

THRobinson

Distinguished
May 17, 2009
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5
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I was surprised that my old H97 has an M.2 slot and that it works with NVMe... not sure how much speed is throttled (if any) but like I said, my 250GB SSD is full so even if the upgrade of the PC takes longer than expected, I can at least buy the M.2 drive now and use it.

PCIe slots, yup I know lots can go in them, but... what would YOU use them for? For most people, I think 2-3 slots is more than enough especially if newer boards have 2-4 M.2 slots already, and RGB stuff already. Audio wise... I have two friends who went to school for audio engineering and after a while with them, I'll never buy a sound card. External sure, internal ones kinda a waste of money.

ASUS being high end wise, wasn't the point. I just went to PC PartPicker, sorted by price and took the lowest and the highest price with same features simply to say. why? More than doubled the price and feature wise the same. Well, basic features listed anyways.

Brand wise... ASUS for me. Been using 15yrs and no issues. I used another brand once, lots of issues, but so long ago I can't recall the brand. Sister's ASRock after a few years has had no issues. MSI though, when I was researching GPU's, I saw no real complaints about other brands except MSI and how the boards were all using cheaper components. Came up a few times from different reviewers, and I know the GPU isn't the MOBO but because of that, I just left MSI off my search. But... I'm also not looking at their $350CAD range either, I'm looking at the $200CAD range.

Of course luck plays a part... reduce your chances of issues with a good board, but, may buy a board and have it die randomly regardless make/brand. May get a cheap piece of junk board that never dies... kinda like cars. :D

Ah well... got some prices and parts saved on my watch list... gotta decide which path to take and hopefully by the end of April have some parts ordered.

I think CPU/RAM/MOBO.... then save up for the GPU/PSU. M.2 drive, probably get that with the CPU upgrade since I'll have to reinstall Win10 anyways.
 

Aeacus

Titan
Ambassador
PCIe slots, yup I know lots can go in them, but... what would YOU use them for? For most people, I think 2-3 slots is more than enough especially if newer boards have 2-4 M.2 slots already, and RGB stuff already. Audio wise... I have two friends who went to school for audio engineering and after a while with them, I'll never buy a sound card. External sure, internal ones kinda a waste of money.

For PCI-E slots, i currently have my GPU in there. And like i said above:
At current date, most beneficial use would be additional M.2 slots, since my current MoBo "only" has 2x M.2 slots, where both are filled.
This would be my main use of PCI-E slots, after GPU.

Oh, i did have a plan to go with 2x GTX 1070 in a 2-way SLI (which was also one of the reasons why i bought my ATX MoBo), but times changed.

What would be enough for most people, while nice idea, often isn't reality. Instead, people get bigger/better/more than what would be "enough" for them. Having more is almost always viewed as favorable, while having less, usually, is frowned upon. That's the society and human nature.

For example, most people buy 5 passenger cars, while they mostly drive alone. Here, for solo drivers, "enough" for them would be kei car (e.g Smart Fortwo). Yet, most drive with SUVs and in America, big gas guzzling pickup trucks. Wasting loads of resources and fuel, just to get 1 person from point A to B.

I just went to PC PartPicker, sorted by price and took the lowest and the highest price with same features simply to say. why? More than doubled the price and feature wise the same. Well, basic features listed anyways.

You can't trust pcpp prices at all times. Very cheap and very expensive are the ones to take a 2nd look at.

E.g Thermaltake View 91,
pcpp: https://ca.pcpartpicker.com/product...-edition-atx-full-tower-case-ca-1i9-00f1wn-00

Currently, you could buy one for 1400+ CAD, but is it worth the price? Especially when seeing that it should cost ~650 CAD.

Of course luck plays a part... reduce your chances of issues with a good board, but, may buy a board and have it die randomly regardless make/brand. May get a cheap piece of junk board that never dies... kinda like cars. :D

One doesn't need luck with brand new stuff. Warranty covers when MoBo is DOA or dies within warranty period.
For used, 2nd hand stuff, yes, you'd need luck and lots of it.

Ah well... got some prices and parts saved on my watch list... gotta decide which path to take and hopefully by the end of April have some parts ordered.

I think CPU/RAM/MOBO.... then save up for the GPU/PSU. M.2 drive, probably get that with the CPU upgrade since I'll have to reinstall Win10 anyways.

I'm sure you'll make a good decision. :)