2 builds under 3k, which one is the winner

[caesparktom]

after talk with mjmjpfaff about my build here, I have two contenders. Quick votes & thoughtful advice both welcome. Hoping to buy this thing this week.

Approximate Purchase Date: this week
Budget Range: 3000 usd
System Usage from Most to Least Important: Rhino, Autocad, CS5
Parts Not Required: -
Preferred Website(s) for Parts: -
Country of Origin: China
Parts Preferences: see parts list below
Overclocking: no
SLI or Crossfire: no
Monitor Resolution: 1920x1080
Additional Comments: workstation

OPTION 1:
MOBO: SUPERMICRO MBD-X8DAi
CPU: 2x Xeon E5620
GPU: NVidia Quadro 2000
RAM: Mushkin Enhanced Blackline 12GB (3 x 4GB)
SSD: Crucial C300（128GB）
HDD: WD Caviar Black 1TB
DVD: Sony Optiarc AD-7240S
LCD: LG IPS231P-BN Black 23"
Key: K120(Logitech)
Mouse: M90(Logitech)
Case: Corsair 700D
PSU: Corsair HX750

OPTION 2:
MOBO: ASUS P8P67 WS REVOLUTION
CPU: i7 2600k
GPU: NVidia Quadro 2000
RAM: corsair vengeance ddr3 1600 12gb(3x4gb)
SSD: Crucial C300（128GB）
HDD: SAMSUNG Spinpoint F3 HD103SJ 1TB
DVD: Sony Optiarc AD-7240S
LCD: ASUS ProArt Series PA246Q Black 24.1"
Key: K120(Logitech)
Mouse: M90(Logitech)
Case: Corsair 700D
PSU: Corsair HX750

*It was also suggested that i give up the quadro 2000 for mainstrem gaming graphics card like a 560 ti or 570, but instead i upgraded my monitor.

 

[Proximon]

The P8P67 board you have in Option 2 is not a triple-channel board. You need to buy memory in pairs as it's dual-channel.

This would be an example of an appropriate kit for you:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145347

There is nothing in either build requiring an HX750. I recommend something a bit smaller so that your actual wattage requirements under full load will fall into a range that is efficient for the PSU. Seasonic X-650 at the most.... which is also a FULLY modular PSU and so a better idea.
The X-560 would really be best... but because the X-650 is a bit older you might find a better deal on it.

I think the Quadro is probably the better choice here.

Which build is better..... Unless ALL of your main work programs are heavily multi-threaded, I have to think the i7-2600K will be the faster choice. I would also expect the platform to be more trouble-free for you.

 

[caesparktom]

jeaz, thanks for saving me. do you think 16gb of mem is a bit much?

most of the applications i use are multithreaded, but i suspect that at most 30-40% of the time would i really benifit from the performane gain. hard to say of course. My bread and butter aps are rhino and illustrator/ps. I think rhino only takes full advantage of multithreading for rendering and i don't really do all that much rendering anyway. illustrator and ps are probably where i would get the greater payoff, but i'm not pushing them that hard most of the time. so i think i will go i7 unless some advocates for the dual quads.

 

[caesparktom]

I would also expect the platform to be more trouble-free for you.

can you tell me what you mean by this?? thx

 

[Proximon]

I think that 16GB might be... but I have no idea what the size of your projects are. I do know that if you got 8GB now you might have trouble matching it in the future if you needed it.... so buy according to your possible future needs. Maybe 8GB is it.

Definitely sounds like you need the i7.

I've never set up a "server" type board before, but my understanding is it probably won't have the level of compatibility with hardware and such that you will get with a mainstream board.
These generally cost more than you might expect because there's an advanced level of customer support needed to get them running right. Or at least that's my impression.

 

[caesparktom]

well, my working files are pretty huge and i move between programs constantly, so typically i have 2to4 very nasty/unwieldy files open at the same and a million or so browser tabs open on top of that, so perhaps 16 is not so crazy. Just seems like people are constantly getting berated in forums for suggesting anything upwards of 12gb thanks again

 

[caesparktom]

sorry for very dumb question, but to be sure. there is no diff btw two identical dual-channel ram kits and one quad-channel right?

looking at getting:
two of these: G.SKILL Ripjaws X Series dual-channel kits
or
one of these: CORSAIR Vengeance quad-channel kit

 

[mjmjpfaff]

correct no difference

 

[Proximon]

correct no difference

Internally they might be identical, but there is a difference. The company is standing behind the single set, saying it will work. Will you get the same level of support regardless? Maybe so, but they could potentially say "not intended to be run in a 16GB config."
I don't mean to make a big deal out of that, it's a minor point. Especially with RAM rated at 1.5V.

 

[caesparktom]

fair point. all things being equal (price & availability) i'll go with quad-channel set. but maybe hard to find here in beijing.

 

[caesparktom]

wondering if the Noctua NH-D14 is good cooling solution for me if i'm not OCing hard core. Brings up another point: Is it reckless to OC a workstation? And my dumb question for the day: how do i check if cooler fits in my case, etc. Thanks

 

[Proximon]

Yes that's a fine choice in a cooler. You can spend a lot less of course and get adequate cooling, but the Noctua has a nice blend of cooling and low db.

It's not reckless to achieve a moderate overclock and back it up with rigorous stress testing. Your processor is not rated at that clock speed because it will somehow explode if it goes over. Rather, it's rated that way so that it can survive in a poorly ventilated case with a mediocre cooler and questionable power supply.

Choosing a high-end case pretty much means that any air cooler will fit. If you look at the cooler product page you can get full dimensions usually if you need to. The better question is will the cooler fit your motherboard, especially will it clear the heatsinks on your RAM.

 

[flong]

The Corsair HX 850 is on sale at newegg right now for $119 after rebates. It is a steal at that price.

You may want to look at the Dell 27" monitor for the prices you are considering. There is a review here: http://reviews.cnet.com/lcd-monitors/dell-ultrasharp-u2711/4505-3174_7-33913833.html For CAD work this would be a great monitor and it also is great for movies and games. It recently was on sale for less than $750.00 which is a great price for this monitor.

Hp also is offering a 27" monitor that is well reviewed and costs less than the Dell.

Why go with the Crucial 300 when the OCZ Vertex 3 120 GB smokes it and costs only about $75.00 more?

 

[caesparktom]

wow, flong, the dell ultrasharps are pretty sweet. I am really in love with the Asus proart series but after reading the ultrasharp reveiws I'm torn. Also thanks for price tips, but I am buying locally in china. If i can find a deal that good on the 27inch ultrasharp in china i may be tempted, but for now I've narrowed it down to three 24" monitors:

ASUS ProArt Series PA246Q Black 24.1"
Dell UltraSharp U2410 24-inch
HP ZR24w 61 cm (24")

Here is a spec comparison of ultrasharp and proart

All are comparably overpriced at around 500. Hp is little less, Asus is little more. I guess I'm leaning toward either the dell or asus. The dell has higher contrast ratio of 80k:1 (vs asus 50k:1) and is S-IPS(vs asus P-IPS). Otherwise they seem pretty evenly matched. Also curious if anybody knows how the +-45 degree swivels joints compare mechanically.

Why Crucial 300? Well, in china the price spread is more like 120usd. What do you think? still the good choice?

Proximon, thanks again for more invaluable help. I stick with with Noctua NH-D14 and overclock modestly.

 

[Proximon]

Why go with the Crucial 300 when the OCZ Vertex 3 120 GB smokes it and costs only about $75.00 more?

It's a good question. Given the way OCZ behaved with the last gen SSDs are you so ready to trust them this time around? They were supposed to re-label their SSDs to reflect the slower NAND... did they ever do that? No.

The part numbers are supposed to reflect the type of NAND used. Here is my source:
http://www.anandtech.com/show/4256/the-ocz-vertex-3-review-120gb/4

And here is the part at newegg, still not labeled:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820227551

You can get an OWC drive though
http://eshop.macsales.com/item/Other%20World%20Computing/SSDMX6G120/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=shoppingengine&utm_campaign=googlebase

 

[flong]

wow, flong, the dell ultrasharps are pretty sweet. I am really in love with the Asus proart series but after reading the ultrasharp reveiws I'm torn. Also thanks for price tips, but I am buying locally in china. If i can find a deal that good on the 27inch ultrasharp in china i may be tempted, but for now I've narrowed it down to three 24" monitors:

ASUS ProArt Series PA246Q Black 24.1"
Dell UltraSharp U2410 24-inch
HP ZR24w 61 cm (24")

Here is a spec comparison of ultrasharp and proart

All are comparably overpriced at around 500. Hp is little less, Asus is little more. I guess I'm leaning toward either the dell or asus. The dell has higher contrast ratio of 80k:1 (vs asus 50k:1) and is S-IPS(vs asus P-IPS). Otherwise they seem pretty evenly matched. Also curious if anybody knows how the +-45 degree swivels joints compare mechanically.

Why Crucial 300? Well, in china the price spread is more like 120usd. What do you think? still the good choice?

Proximon, thanks again for more invaluable help. I stick with with Noctua NH-D14 and overclock modestly.

I agree with Proximon, the NH-D14 is maybe the best air cooler out there.

I started a thread on Tom's hardware about whether to go with the older Vertex 2 (which is similar to the Crucial 300 in performance) or the new Vertex 3. The opinions that I really valued came from people who owned BOTH cards. They are saying there is not comparison between the two. The new generation Sandforce drives appear to be vastly superior.

That being said, the Crucial 300 is SATA III and was one of the two fastest SSDs in its time. By all reports it is a great SSD and Tom's Hardware recommended it over the Vertex 3 because of the price difference. It may be more reliable also but information is spotty on which SSD is the most reliable.

For me the cost difference is worth it because the V3 nearly doubles the speed of the last generation SSDs and V3 owners say it has better Trim support and garbage collection. It is the actual owners of the V3 that have convinced me (I haven't bought it yet). Note that OWC makes an 120GB SSD that virtually ties the V3 in speed. Some people question OCZ's reliability but since there is only one study that I am aware of, we really don't know which manufacturer is the most reliable. Most people agree that it is Intel, but their 510 SSD is pretty pricey and it is slower than the V3.

You have narrowed your choice in monitors to four really great monitors. I have the HP 2475 which is a more expensive ZR24. I am very happy with the 2475 it is a beautiful monitor, the colors are very accurate and the screen picture is stunning - but I still drool over the huge Dell 27" ha, ha.
I read somewhere that Dell is updating the U2410 - if that is true, it may be the monitor to get as far as performance vs price. It competed well with the 2475 in reviews but the initial units had a pink tint that could not be adjusted out. The Dell update may eliminate that problem. The U2410 is a great monitor.

I have not seen any reviews of the ASUS pro-art but it is pretty pricey for a 24" monitor. You have me interested now - I am going to check it out. The Dell 27" is about the same price. http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/ is a great site to read monitor reviews. I don't know anything about that monitor.

Keep in mind that to get the best picture out of any of these monitors you will need a high quality video card. I am not familiar with the Quadro 2000, but in general the ATI higher level cards (68xx and above) produce better video than the GTX cards (per the reviews that I have read). However it looks like you have chosen the 2000 for its CAD prowess and so it may be the best choice.

 

[caesparktom]

hmm, I haven't really been taking the issue of ssd reliability seriously, naively assuming they are all more or less high quality parts. Now that I am I'm finding it very hard to cut through all the information, which is mostly qualitative and inconsistent. By most accounts seems the C300 is something of balance between performance, cost and reliability. I can understand performance and cost. But what does reliability mean? is there any data out there to help me understand what the actual risk of going with a "less reliable" drive is. Because if they are all "reasonably reliable", then the issue is really price v performance and thats something i can understand. This is workstation so reliability is important, but come on...

Also interesting reading about OCZ's shady behavior. Then again i try not to expect too much in the way of transparency. They will pay the real price if there reputation gets tainted. Its good enough for me that they know that better than i do.

Once again, extremely helpful. ty, I will make & post final build soon.

 

[flong]

hmm, I haven't really been taking the issue of ssd reliability seriously, naively assuming they are all more or less high quality parts. Now that I am I'm finding it very hard to cut through all the information, which is mostly qualitative and inconsistent. By most accounts seems the C300 is something of balance between performance, cost and reliability. I can understand performance and cost. But what does reliability mean? is there any data out there to help me understand what the actual risk of going with a "less reliable" drive is. Because if they are all "reasonably reliable", then the issue is really price v performance and thats something i can understand. This is workstation so reliability is important, but come on...

Also interesting reading about OCZ's shady behavior. Then again i try not to expect too much in the way of transparency. They will pay the real price if there reputation gets tainted. Its good enough for me that they know that better than i do.

Once again, extremely helpful. ty, I will make & post final build soon.

I have heard of only one reliability study and it was Russian or something and so it is suspect. Everyone says Intel is the most reliable. Concerning the OCZ Vertex 3, people on this forum who actually own them swear by them (I started a thread about it). On newegg reviews the V3 seems to be doing pretty good but not great - but that is similar for every SSD. Everyone agrees that SSDs are more reliable than HDDs though as far as catastrophic failure.

 

[caesparktom]

well, thats good enough for me. I'll find your thread and probably go with the V3...IF i can afford it.

 

[Proximon]

You have probably looked at all the data I looked at. I'll just mention what I bought after much agonizing, 3 weeks ago:

Intel 320 160GB
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820167055

 

[flong]

Everyone says the Intel SSDs are very reliable - so you have purchased a good drive.

 

[caesparktom]

well, here is the "final" build...no surprises really, except i decided to stick with c300 ssd and go with 24" ultrasharp display so that i could upgrade to the quadro 4000. ultrasharp was a no brainer because best price in china for the proart is 850 usd (300+ more than ultrasharp). I really want that proart though...(tear drops). After changing my mind 32 times, I decided the c300 will make me very happy and more importantly bring my dollars_saved upto 400+, enough to upgrade my gpu. Historically, I have no problem at all hitting performance ceilings with rhino and cs5, so i think the gpu upgrade will payoff. The 4000 does consume twice as much power(142W). The 650w psu is still sufficient you think?

MOBO: ASUS P8P67 WS REVOLUTION
CPU: i7 2600k
GPU: NVidia Quadro 4000
RAM: G.SKILL Ripjaws X Series 16GB (4 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800)
SSD: Crucial C300（128GB）
HDD: SAMSUNG Spinpoint F3 HD103SJ 1TB
DVD: Sony Optiarc AD-7240S
LCD: Dell Ultrasharp U2410 24"
Key: K120(Logitech)
Mouse: M90(Logitech)
Case: Corsair 700D
PSU: SeaSonic X Series X650 Gold

You have probably looked at all the data I looked at. I'll just mention what I bought after much agonizing, 3 weeks ago:

Intel 320 160GB
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod [...] 6820167055

Very tempting...could probably use the extra 40gb (not too mention the extra peace of mind). Hope it treats you well


Proximon and flong, Thank you again for all your help!

 

[Proximon]

That PSU will easily handle any single Quadro you have plus any other hardware you can fit in your box. Mine is running an overclocked 2600K, an overclocked 5870, eleven 120mm fans, a water pump, sound card, two platter drives, SSD, lights, digital fan control panel... and even after all that it's rare for the PSU fan to actually turn on. Meaning I'm usually below 25% of the capacity of the PSU.

 

[flong]

That PSU will easily handle any single Quadro you have plus any other hardware you can fit in your box. Mine is running an overclocked 2600K, an overclocked 5870, eleven 120mm fans, a water pump, sound card, two platter drives, SSD, lights, digital fan control panel... and even after all that it's rare for the PSU fan to actually turn on. Meaning I'm usually below 25% of the capacity of the PSU.

Wouldn't the 5870 alone take you to over 25% capacity? It eats a lot power when it is under heavy demand.

 

[flong]

well, here is the "final" build...no surprises really, except i decided to stick with c300 ssd and go with 24" ultrasharp display so that i could upgrade to the quadro 4000. ultrasharp was a no brainer because best price in china for the proart is 850 usd (300+ more than ultrasharp). I really want that proart though...(tear drops). After changing my mind 32 times, I decided the c300 will make me very happy and more importantly bring my dollars_saved upto 400+, enough to upgrade my gpu. Historically, I have no problem at all hitting performance ceilings with rhino and cs5, so i think the gpu upgrade will payoff. The 4000 does consume twice as much power(142W). The 650w psu is still sufficient you think?

MOBO: ASUS P8P67 WS REVOLUTION
CPU: i7 2600k
GPU: NVidia Quadro 4000
RAM: G.SKILL Ripjaws X Series 16GB (4 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600 (PC3 12800)
SSD: Crucial C300（128GB）
HDD: SAMSUNG Spinpoint F3 HD103SJ 1TB
DVD: Sony Optiarc AD-7240S
LCD: Dell Ultrasharp U2410 24"
Key: K120(Logitech)
Mouse: M90(Logitech)
Case: Corsair 700D
PSU: SeaSonic X Series X650 Gold

You have probably looked at all the data I looked at. I'll just mention what I bought after much agonizing, 3 weeks ago:

Intel 320 160GB
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Prod [...] 6820167055

Very tempting...could probably use the extra 40gb (not too mention the extra peace of mind). Hope it treats you well


Proximon and flong, Thank you again for all your help!

The Dell monitor and the Corsair 700D case both are real lookers, ha, ha. You are going to have an amazing looking computer.

Many of the Corsair PSUs are made by Seasonic but have some tweaking by Corsair and they are rated very highly. Check prices on the Corsair 750 HX and the 850 HX when you buy because they often go on sale and you can get them for about the same price as the Seasonic 650. Last week the Corsair 850 HX went on sale for $119.00 after rebates and it is one of the best PSUs in existence - probably in the top three sub-1000 W PSUs made, maybe the best made. Google some reviews of the 850 HX.