$300 to upgrade system core

[yoss]

Ok, I’ve talked my wife into letting me spend up to $300 on upgrades in the next week or two, and would greatly appreciate some feedback into getting the most bang for the buck while maintaining some future upgrade ability. Motherboard selection may be the most complex, so I figured I’d post here.

It’s a home PC that work tends to bleed into on occasion. I play games (City of Heroes, Tribes 3 when it’s out, probably HL2, WoW, etc) and end up doing some number crunching (MatLab, C++, etc).

Really, if I can actually play (not just run) the games coming out in the next 1-2 years, even with settings at stick-people settings, I’ll be happy. It’s when I can’t play at stick-people settings that I cringe.

Current System: (Cannibalized HP)
CPU: AMD 900 MHz T-Bird
Mobo: Asus K7M (HP variant of it actually, only can do AGP 1x)
RAM: 512MB SDRAM (2x256)
Vid Card: G4 ti4600 128MB (AGP 1x/2x/4x)
PSU: SPARKLE 400W
HD: WDC WD450AA-00BAA0 (running in Ultra DMA Mode 4)
CD: Mitsumi CR-4804TE (running in Ultra DMA Mode 2)
DVD: Hitachi DVD-ROM GD-7500 (running in Ultra DMA Mode 1)
ZIP: IOMEGA ZIP 100 (running in PIO Mode)
Sound Card: Hercules Game Theater XP 7.0
Network Card: too lazy to look – good enough one
OS: WinXP

Quite frankly, my case and PSU (both only a few months old) are my best two components, followed by my mouse and sound card…

I really don’t know what the CD, DVD, and HD are other than what device manager says… HP specials. But, I want to keep as many of my old media drives as I can to cut costs… I’ll replace them as I go later.

My thoughts for updating:

Mobo: GIGABYTE "GA-K8NS" NVIDIA nForce3 250 Chipset Motherboard For AMD Socket 754 CPU –RETAIL <A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=13-128-259&catalog=23&manufactory=BROWSE" target="_new"> $73 </A>

(I seen here that nforce > VIA. It also offers upgrade room for more RAM, conversion to faster media drives, faster v-cards (thinking current generation of AGP 8x), using socket 754 will restrict me in future I know, but it’s quite a bit cheaper than any newer slot mobo I’ve found and I’m not planning on having high-end system for many years. Also has built in sound, LAN. Only other negative I can see (ignorance?) is lack of a fire-wire port, but I have no need for one yet.)

CPU: AMD Athlon 64 3000+, 512KB L2 Cache 64-bit Processor – Retail <A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=19-103-486&catalog=23&manufactory=BROWSE" target="_new"> $149 </A>

(Short of the cap for the Mobo, but cheaper. Could upgrade to 3400+ (?) on socket 754 in future if needed, but this seems like a nice spot in the cost-speed curve atm)

RAM: Corsair Value Select 184 Pin 512MB DDR PC-3200 – Retail <A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/app/viewProductDesc.asp?description=20-145-026&catalog=23&manufactory=BROWSE" target="_new"> $75 </A>

(Really not sure on this one, I remember that Corsair was always good memory when I was more into building systems, Its CAS latency 2.5. As far as I can tell the Mobo won’t support dual channel, so going for a 1x512, and can add another 512 stick in a few months after a new HD.)

Total Cost: $297

I’d really like to be able to eek out a new hard drive using this money too, because I think that will be a big bottle neck after these changes. I have my eye on Western Digital 80GB 7200RPM SATA Hard Drive, Model WD800JD, OEM Drive Only <A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=22-135-106&depa=1" target="_new"> $63 </A> for a future buy. If I have to run a few months choked until I upgrade HD it’s ok… so long as its noticeably faster than what I’m at now.

Future upgrade path (over next 1-2 years, to push system maybe into 3rd year)
Hard Drive
Video Card (Fastest AGP 8x they make before PCI-E)
RAM (add a stick or two)
CD/DVD – R


Anyone see a way to get a new HD in there without a major hit, or have a better suggestion for where to spend?

Thanks in advance

Edit: PS. I really don't overclock anything.

<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by yoss on 11/20/04 11:46 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[Decker87]

It'll be a long process to dissect your post. Lets start out with the basics: Motherboard. You can basically throw out of the picture stuff having to do with media drives...that can always be upgraded and you wont have to worry about compatibility.

The mobo looks good....but why would you want that CPU? It's about 30 dollars more than a 2800, and that same 30 dollars might be able to buy you a good enough HSF to overclock past the 3000 anyway.

RAM:

I see you are going with newegg a lot here, which is understandable. But honestly, I think this is a very bad choice for RAM. Mainly because of the cheapest competitor on NewEgg: N82E16820156006 in other words, Kingmax. It's a lesser known brand, but it has exactly the same stats as the corsair except it's much cheaper. If the warranty was for a year, I would probably go with the corsair...but they are both lifetime. So I would definitely go with the lowest bidder there, because even if something does go wrong, which it probably won't before an upgrade, you'll have to pay less than a dollar shipping to NewEgg and they'll send you a new stick by the end of the week.

Concerning your mobo and memory, you might want to consult this review: http://www.tomshardware.com/motherboard/20040602/memory_modules-22.html
The whole thing is huge, but read it all.

In order to squeeze another HD in, you could downgrade your mobo, but that depends on your sound system, other computers in the house, and whether or not you are overclocking. But in the end, after some searching, you probably can't do that because they won't support your video card.

Another thing to consider is going for a Socket 939 instead of 754. Yes, it's more expensive, but let me explain:

A K8N Neo 939 mobo, teh one that kicked Gigabyte's arse in the said review, costs about 136, which is 63 dollars more than your 754. An athlon 64 3000 socket 939 CPU costs 149, which is exactly the same as the CPU on socket 754.

In the end, you come up with it being 63 dollars more expensive - BUT...dual channel support. That means you won't have to spend a dime for ram, and more importantly:

1. You won't have expensive ram laying around, which is very inefficient.

2. You won't have to buy more ram. That alone makes this setup cheaper.

3. Better upgradability. Socket 939 will go farther than 754.

Edit: Also, about the hard drive, the hitachi you taked about is a very good choice. What are the specs on teh hard drive you have now? Is it serial ata or parallel? If it's parallel, I can give you one of my serillel para to sata converters I have laying around, so you can use a RAID array. Also, what speed is your ram?<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by Decker87 on 11/21/04 02:50 AM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[yoss]

Thanks for taking the time to read and respond. I’ll try to be a bit more concise.

I agree about the lifetime warranty (especially with newegg).

No other computers in the house, just need to talk to the cable modem.

Sound System: Not a big concern to me. My current sound card is sufficient, if I end up with onboard sound I’ll probably use it instead.


I'll give a 939 system another stab

Starting budget: $300 (rather hard limit unfortunately)

HD:
I got this 40 gig HD around 2000-2001. It uses the old parallel/ribbon cable to connect.. Honestly, I never even thought to look for adapters from IDE to S-ATA, I thought only the power adapters existed. Using this <A HREF="http://www4.tomshardware.com/storage/20020806/ide-03.html" target="_new">article</A> I think it's safe to say it's at ata/66 for transfer rate, and looking back at reviews around that time frame it’s most likely a 5400 rpm, with 2MB cache. I seen a post by crashman on the hard-drive forum stating that data rate is really capped when using ata/100, but I’m not sure how significant the effects of the cache and spin speed are for this setup.

Looks like I’m going to have to live with this HD for now to get a 939 system.


CPU:
Goal is to get into the 939 door, so the cheapest chip possible, making it a retail version for cheapest cooling solution. Using pricewatch, the cheapest I could find isAMD 64 3000+ <A HREF="http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=80699-2" target="_new"> $159 </A>

Budget Left: $141

Motherboard:
I read the article, good find. Now to find a good 939 mobo that will last a bit.

Edit: Cant use the Asus A8V-Deluxe, it only has AGP 8x...

The cheapest 939 motherboard I could find that seems decent is MSI K8T<A HREF="http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=241144" target="_new"> $104 </A>

The MSI K8N looks to not support AGP4x

That would leave $37 for ram…

RAM:
My current ram is PC-100 (100 MHz) so I’m rather SOL for re-using it, which hurts the wallet.

$37 is enough to get a 256MB stick at newegg…
A matched set is out of range for my budget, but I want to stay at the 512 MB level.
The cheapest 512 stick I can find is the one you suggested for <A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProduct.asp?submit=property&DEPA=1" target="_new">$66.50</A>.
That puts me $29.50 over budget, add in the $5 shipping for the ram from newegg (zipzoomfly has free 2-day on most everything), and I’m $34 over budget.

I might be able to talk her into this…

I'm not opposed to mild overclocking, but I haven't had the time to get into it much.

Any other ideas for a motherboard? I'm having a hard time finding a socket 939 that supports both AGP 4x and 8x.

It looks to me as if this mobo will allow two of the old IDE connections.. I should be able to hook up my drives just as I have them now as master & slave on those connections right?

How should my upgrade list look now assuming 512/256 MB of ram bought now?

1: HD/RAM (few months)
2: RAM/V-Card (~9 months)
3: V-Card/RAM (12-15 mo.)
4: CPU / CPU
5: Other stuff

Thanks again for the help. The last system I built from scratch was in ’99, so I’m a bit behind.



<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by yoss on 11/21/04 02:44 PM.</EM></FONT></P>

 

[Decker87]

As far as meeting the budget, if you can't use that RAM (which i agree, you shant), it's gonna be tough, but it might be possible with a little more shopping around and selling. Your old CPU is selling on ebay for $20 here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=15919&item=6722558220&rd=1

I'll come back later to respond a bit more in-depth, but I think now with the old ram out of the picture you may have to go 754.

 

[yoss]

Thanks again for your time.

After explaining that I could probably milk out the motherboard for an additional year or more going with a 939, I got permission to go a bit over (including shipping)... so I figure 350 max.

I've been looking all over for more AGP4x and socket 939 combinations and I found two more that seem to have good reviews.


<A HREF="http://www.giga-byte.com/Motherboard/Products/Products_GA-K8NS Ultra-939.htm" target="_new">GIGABYTE "GA-K8NS Ultra-939" Retail</A> for <A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=13-128-263&depa=1" target="_new"> $116 </A>
+ nforce chipset

<A HREF="http://www.abit-usa.com/products/mb/products.php?categories=1&model=175" target="_new"> Abit AV8 Via K8T800 Pro </A> for <A HREF="http://www.newegg.com/app/ViewProductDesc.asp?description=13-127-181&depa=1" target="_new"> $111 </A>
+ lists my exact vid card for support (and newest ones)
~ VIA chipset

The mobo from my last post:

<A HREF="http://www.msicomputer.com/product/p_spec.asp?model=K8T_Neo2-F&class=mb" target="_new">MSI K8T Neo2-F</A> for <A HREF="http://www.zipzoomfly.com/jsp/ProductDetail.jsp?ProductCode=241144" target="_new">$104</A>

All three of these will put my total ~340 with shipping.
Reading reviews (and that ram chart) it looks like the GA-K8NS or AV8 would be more stable. I've read nforce>VIA, so should I go on that, or just go with which bells and whistles I want...

I'll search for comparisons of the onboard sounds, and onboard vs PCI sound.

 

[RichPLS]

The onboard sound of todays boards are excellent and you can get by fine without an ad on sound card, also, onboard networking eliminates the need for an add on nic too.


<font color=red><pre>\\//__________________________________
And the sign says "You got to have a membership card to get inside" Huh
So I got me a pen and paper And I made up my own little sign</pre><p></font color=red>

 

[Decker87]

I would definitely go with the Abit. It's an overall better brand, usually better overclocker, more reliable and better support. Make sure you factor in extended warranties from Newegg, and be sure you are getting the best deal possible on each part. That also begs the question: do you use ebay?

A lot of the parts can basically be said to outlive their time of usage, that is, they'll be obsolete before they actually go bad. So consider getting used but good parts as well.

 

[sobelizard]

The AGP support is backwards compatible. If the mobo says 8X, then it will support ALL previous AGP X.

<font color=green><b><i>Lizards</font color=green></b> do <b>not</b> taste like <b><font color=yellow>chicken</font color=yellow></b>,<b> <font color=yellow>chicken</font color=yellow></b> tastes like <font color=green><b>lizard.</b></font color=green></i>

 

[yoss]

Thanks a lot for your help Decker. I just put in orders for the parts now, made it work with $328 (including shipping) so both me and the wife are happy (mostly me).

As far as AGP being backwards compatable... I agree that every AGP 8x board can run at AGP1x speeds, but the way I read <A HREF="http://www.ertyu.org/~steven_nikkel/agpcompatibility.html" target="_new">this</A> is that the board may not supply a strong enough voltage signal for a card made for AGP 1x. Lower voltage swing typically means less heat and faster, so I assume (perhaps wrongly) that most 8x boards today output a 0.8V signal instead of the 3.3V. My card (AGP1x/2x/4x) must require 1.5V, but I suppose 0.8V is over half way, so maybe a high would still be a high (and the keys are the same)... /shrug.

I have a tendancy to over-complicate things, but in any case what I (will) have will make me very happy.

Thanks again, hopefully it all goes smooth.

-Yoss

 

[pat]

I dont know what you just got, but I think that you did it wrong...let me explain...you spent more for dual channel 939 board, but did you get 2 memory module??? If not, then you'll be running in single channel. Considering your budget, I would have buy an AMD A64 2800+ or a 3000+ and an inexpensive socket 754 mobo with generic inexpensive ram. That should have give you a little more head room for a faster HDD, because the one you have will slow you down a lot...cpu are almost always fast enough, you wait for booting, level loading in game, big files to load,...as for socket life term, I wouldnt have worried about it...really, when you'll upgrade next, will you only put a faster CPU when all new feature like faster SATA, PCIe and all the new thing that will appears will be available? I guess no, just as you ditch you old mobo, cpu, ram,.. for that upgrade.
Better have a balanced system than only a fast component in a slow computer... Like running a performing Porche engine in an old Chevette body...

-Always put the blame on you first, then on the hardware !!!

 

[endyen]

Old agp cards were series 1 agp, and used 3.3 v. Their pin config was different from Series 2, so that they no longer fit in the agp slot. If the card fits, it will auto cofig for correct voltage.