4e questions: Eidetic Memory and skills

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Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

I apologise if this has been addressed before.

Recently, I was reading the GURPS 4e update, and I noticed
something odd:

"Eidetic Memory
This no longer provides any bonuses to
skill levels or points spent on skills. It also no
longer gives a bonus to spell skill levels. If you
wish to simulate those aspects of the Third
Edition advantage, buy multiple Talents
and/or extra levels of Magery as well."

Why is it that the abilty to memorise any information you
have access to no longer allows you to learn mental skills
more quickly and easily (which was the rationale behind the
bonuses it granted in Third Edition)?*

Next, the skills have been simplified, so that Physical and
Mental skills cost the same per level, rather than Physical
skills being harder to learn at higher levels, which made
more sense. "The limits of the body are more difficult to
overcome than the limits of the mind." - GURPS Third Edition
Basic Set. So, why this change?

*Interestingly enough, Hero System has the same strange flaw,
along with a less adaptable version of the new Talent advantages
found in 4e.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

>>>>> "PC" == Prince Charon <princecharon@my-deja.com> writes:

PC> Why is it that the abilty to memorise any information you have
PC> access to no longer allows you to learn mental skills more
PC> quickly and easily (which was the rationale behind the bonuses
PC> it granted in Third Edition)?*

Because the bonuses it granted were far out of proportion to the point
cost, and were constantly subject to abuse. The flat bonus to skills
is also closer to the way people with real-world eidetic memory work;
it helps with memorization, but not with critical thinking or
analysis. The person who can remember all 32 of Beethoven's piano
sonatas (and I know someone like that) has a significant bonus to her
Musical Instrument: Piano or Music Analysis skill, but not enough that
it justifies doubling or quadrupling the points she spends on it.

PC> Next, the skills have been simplified, so that Physical and
PC> Mental skills cost the same per level, rather than Physical
PC> skills being harder to learn at higher levels, which made more
PC> sense. "The limits of the body are more difficult to overcome
PC> than the limits of the mind." - GURPS Third Edition Basic Set.
PC> So, why this change?

Because the additional complexity didn't provide enough tangible
benefit in play to justify itself. Perhaps Steve Jackson, now nearly
two decades older than he was when he designed GURPS, has realized
that the limits of the body and the limits of the mind are more
closely connected than he at first thought -- or perhaps he found that
the distinction he drew was much more significant in actual play than
he found it to be.

Charlton





--
cwilbur at chromatico dot net
cwilbur at mac dot com
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

> Why is it that the abilty to memorise any information you
> have access to no longer allows you to learn mental skills
> more quickly and easily (which was the rationale behind the
> bonuses it granted in Third Edition)?*
>
> Next, the skills have been simplified, so that Physical and
> Mental skills cost the same per level, rather than Physical
> skills being harder to learn at higher levels, which made
> more sense. "The limits of the body are more difficult to
> overcome than the limits of the mind." - GURPS Third Edition
> Basic Set. So, why this change?
>

GURPS can never project reality into rules. Reality is too complex for
that. One problem in Roleplaying Games is balancing the different player
characters. In D&D 2 this was done by different XP levels for each
level, in D&D 3rd this is done by special feats.
Since GURPS is more complex in character creation allowing more
different playing styles, balancing is more complex. Both modifications
are in my opinion such decisions. In 3rd Edition, they both favored IQ
based character designs (e.g. Mages, Techs, ...) over DX based designs.
That has changed now in 4th.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

"Prince Charon" wrote:
>I apologise if this has been addressed before.
>
> Recently, I was reading the GURPS 4e update, and I noticed
> something odd:
>
> "Eidetic Memory
> This no longer provides any bonuses to
> skill levels or points spent on skills. It also no
> longer gives a bonus to spell skill levels. If you
> wish to simulate those aspects of the Third
> Edition advantage, buy multiple Talents
> and/or extra levels of Magery as well."
>
> Why is it that the abilty to memorise any information you
> have access to no longer allows you to learn mental skills
> more quickly and easily (which was the rationale behind the
> bonuses it granted in Third Edition)?

I've mentioned this before, but I'll say it again. IMO, one of the parts
where GURPS was 'broke' was with the Eidetic Memory 'twink'. All too often,
players would pay out the 30/60 points just to save points on mental skills.
Normally it would be martial artist and mage PCs who would need it due to
the huge amont of points that had to be paid on their basic 'packages', and
the players still wanted to have a fair number of mental skills.

However, it was ripe for abuse by metagamers - such as a former player I had
who was insisting that because his character had Eidetic Memory 2 then he
could pay only 1/4 and 1/8 points for his skills.

Put it this way, my current character has the 30 point level, not only
because she's a martial artist (being a Slayer in our Buffyworld game) but
because I wanted her to be a _smart_ blonde. (Even though I have no problem
playing females, I DO have a problem with playing bimbos.) With just 3
points, she has a PS(Student) skill of 17!

(Okay, so she has an IQ of 15 - those last two points being gifted to her
for completing a quest of a demigod.)

Personally, I'm glad that it's been fixed. Yes, it'll mean that you can't
have gobs of skills at obscene levels, but I think that if those metagames
want them, they'll find a way to. (It's just that it'll be harder for them
and it will now be more blatantly obvious when they try.)

Dave
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On 12 Feb 2005 02:21:11 -0800, "Prince Charon"
<princecharon@my-deja.com> wrote:

>I apologise if this has been addressed before.
>
>Recently, I was reading the GURPS 4e update, and I noticed
>something odd:
>
>"Eidetic Memory
> This no longer provides any bonuses to
>skill levels or points spent on skills. It also no
>longer gives a bonus to spell skill levels. If you
>wish to simulate those aspects of the Third
>Edition advantage, buy multiple Talents
>and/or extra levels of Magery as well."
>
>Why is it that the abilty to memorise any information you
>have access to no longer allows you to learn mental skills
>more quickly and easily (which was the rationale behind the
>bonuses it granted in Third Edition)?*

The answer is given in the 4e description. "This trait affects
recall, not comprehension and so does not benefit skills. However it
gives a bonus whenever the GM requires an IQ roll for learning."

Additionally, reason behind the reason is that it means that only
people who actually want eidetic memory will take eidetic memory, as
opposed to people who really just want a boost to their effective IQ.



>
>Next, the skills have been simplified, so that Physical and
>Mental skills cost the same per level, rather than Physical
>skills being harder to learn at higher levels, which made
>more sense. "The limits of the body are more difficult to
>overcome than the limits of the mind." - GURPS Third Edition
>Basic Set. So, why this change?

Simplifies character design, keeps DX from being disproprotionately
valuable giving them less of an incentive to train their dexterity to
superhuman levels and reflects fictional heros better.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Prince Charon wrote:
[Eidetic Memory]
> Why is it that the abilty to memorise any information you
> have access to no longer allows you to learn mental skills
> more quickly and easily (which was the rationale behind the
> bonuses it granted in Third Edition)?*

Because that's not how having a good memory actually works,
out here in the real world.

If you want to try to get somewhat close to reality, make a
Good Memory talent and have it give bonuses only to those
mental skills where being able to internalize (*not*
memorize - that's what an idiot savant does) lots of facts
is useful.

The obvious candidates are History and Biology.

> Next, the skills have been simplified, so that Physical and
> Mental skills cost the same per level, rather than Physical
> skills being harder to learn at higher levels, which made
> more sense. "The limits of the body are more difficult to
> overcome than the limits of the mind." - GURPS Third Edition
> Basic Set. So, why this change?

Because it's a good change.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Dave wrote:
[...]
> However, it was ripe for abuse by metagamers - such as a former player I had
> who was insisting that because his character had Eidetic Memory 2 then he
> could pay only 1/4 and 1/8 points for his skills.

That has *nothing* whatsoever to do with metagaming.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

"Peter Knutsen" wrote:
>
> Dave wrote:
> [...]
>> However, it was ripe for abuse by metagamers - such as a former player I
>> had who was insisting that because his character had Eidetic Memory 2
>> then he could pay only 1/4 and 1/8 points for his skills.
>
> That has *nothing* whatsoever to do with metagaming.
>
You're right, it's beyond metagaming. It's downright poor playership. And
I say that because he refused to take my ruling as the GM that he couldn't
do so - it took a fellow GURPS GM's help for me to convince him of that.

Dave
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

Dave wrote:
> "Peter Knutsen" wrote:
>>[...]
>>That has *nothing* whatsoever to do with metagaming.
>
> You're right, it's beyond metagaming. It's downright poor playership. And

No, it isn't beyond metagaming either. Metagaming doesn't
mean what you think it means.

> I say that because he refused to take my ruling as the GM that he couldn't
> do so - it took a fellow GURPS GM's help for me to convince him of that.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 02:40:06 +0100, Peter Knutsen
<peter@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:

>
>Dave wrote:
>> "Peter Knutsen" wrote:
>>>[...]
>>>That has *nothing* whatsoever to do with metagaming.
>>
>> You're right, it's beyond metagaming. It's downright poor playership. And
>
>No, it isn't beyond metagaming either. Metagaming doesn't
>mean what you think it means.

And yet you are incapable of articulating what it does mean.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On 12 Feb 2005 02:21:11 -0800, "Prince Charon"
<princecharon@my-deja.com> wrote:

>I apologise if this has been addressed before.
>
[...]
>Why is it that the abilty to memorise any information you
>have access to no longer allows you to learn mental skills
>more quickly and easily (which was the rationale behind the
>bonuses it granted in Third Edition)?*

Point abuse potential.

Also, If you are able to learn FAST, the GM could concede a cut off
the TIME required to learn.
If points represent the "usefulness" of the ability, why an equal
level of learning (ex.: 4 points worth) should be priced LESS when
just learned fast?

Also note that, in 4th Ed., points in skills represent the amount of
learning you obtained (see, for example, the use of skill with
different attribute, or the bonuses given at certain RELATIVE levels).

>Next, the skills have been simplified, so that Physical and
>Mental skills cost the same per level, rather than Physical
>skills being harder to learn at higher levels, which made
>more sense. "The limits of the body are more difficult to
>overcome than the limits of the mind." - GURPS Third Edition
>Basic Set. So, why this change?

While interesting as a concept, it favored too much "mental"
character, against "action" heroes.
Who wants to be the best Karate-master in the world, when with the
same point total you could win a DOZEN Nobel prizes? ^______^;;;

Korin Duval

--

"Truth requires a great amount of courage;
Fiction requires a great amount of maturity."
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

David Johnston wrote:
> <peter@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:
[to another Dave]
>>No, it isn't beyond metagaming either. Metagaming doesn't
>>mean what you think it means.
>
> And yet you are incapable of articulating what it does mean.

No. I just don't think that "Dave" is worth the effort.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

On Sun, 13 Feb 2005 12:00:01 +0100, Peter Knutsen
<peter@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:

>
>David Johnston wrote:
>> <peter@sagatafl.invalid> wrote:
>[to another Dave]
>>>No, it isn't beyond metagaming either. Metagaming doesn't
>>>mean what you think it means.
>>
>> And yet you are incapable of articulating what it does mean.
>
>No. I just don't think that "Dave" is worth the effort.

You thought he was worth the effort to reply to, not once but twice.

What is your definition of "metagaming"?

--
Rob Kelk Personal address (ROT-13): eboxryx -ng- wxfei -qbg- pbz
"Flaming first just means that you haven't realized yet that you're
waaaay behind on points." - Steve Siegfried, 2 March 1999
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.frp.gurps (More info?)

In article <1108203671.761080.229030@l41g2000cwc.googlegroups.com>,
"Prince Charon" <princecharon@my-deja.com> wrote:

> Why is it that the abilty to memorise any information you
> have access to no longer allows you to learn mental skills
> more quickly and easily (which was the rationale behind the
> bonuses it granted in Third Edition)?*

Game balance. As it was presented in G4e, Eidetic memory changed the
slope of the curve, rather than giving a simple integral bonus. Combine
it with math ability, and a standard hundred point character could very
easily get skills in the high teens with relatively few points.

This does not match the experience of the two real world people I know
who do have eidetic memory. (You know - show them a page, then ask them
to write out the third paragraph, and they can do so.) They did well in
school, but were not powerhouse scientist/engineers, just because they
could memorize well. A test based solely on reguritation was pretty
easy, but did not correspond to a great advantage at doing a problem
that required thought. This says to me that "EM -> monster skill
levels" does not represent the real world terribly well.

I ran a GURPS Traveller game, and found this totally unbalancing. There
was no single point cost for EM that gave acceptable characters, and
believe me, we did a lot of fiddling. If science or tech skills came
by, it was better for the EM character to do them, and thus nobody with
any brains would design a scientist without them.

In my 3e game, I ended up doing what 4e did.

You could argue that EM is Just Better than knowledge, and then try to
find a good cost, but I am not sure that just 40 points covers it.

>"The limits of the body are more difficult to
> overcome than the limits of the mind." - GURPS Third Edition
> Basic Set. So, why this change?

Ha - go talk to a black belt about overcoming the limits of the body,
then go talk to a doctoral candidate about the same topic. I suspect
that the GURPS designers who wrote that were not as gifted at sports as
at science.

This was not the only example, IMO, in 3. Look at their valuation of
biology and genetic skills vs math, physics, and engineering. I like
the current costs better.

Scott
 
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