A Look at Cadillac's ELR, GM's Response to Tesla

[Guest]

Cadillac makes the case for the ELR electric luxury coupe - and wants to compete with Tesla.

A Look at Cadillac's ELR, GM's Response to Tesla : Read more

 

[bak0n]

Does nothing for me or my wife. We are shopping the Tesla Model X right now.

 

[warezme]

This is kinda old news and we don't care Mr. and Mrs. Thurston Howell III.

 

[blakbird24]

This thing is beautiful. The model S is a beautiful car on it's own, but it would look downright plain parked next to an ELR. I'd take an ELR over a model S in a half second. It's better looking, and you don't have to worry about running out of juice.

 

[ibjeepr]

I saw my first Tesla on the road 2 days ago. It's a very good looking vehicle and rather large. The ELR is also very attractive but the two vehicles are very different. Not only in looks and size but in powertrain. I find it unlikely that anyone will cross shop the two or frankly, cross shop the Tesla with any vehicle that still has a gas engine. While the Tesla's all electric range is impressive there still isn't the infrastructure to support it for long trips. Especially if that trip is off the most traveled paths. Until then, I think the ELR will have the advantage.

 

[danwat1234]

"201 hp (61 hp more than the Volt)" -- Don't have time to look it up but there are discussions on the internet that the drivetrain is no more powerful than the Volt. That 201HP figure may only be available at certain conditions,;; only when in range extended mode (the engine helping to propel along with the motor(s)).
111KW/147HP is available at all times on both cars.

WHo knows for sure. Look at the detailed press release specs.

It's unfortunate that this expensive Cadillac doesn't have an Atkinson cycle engine like hybrids. So extended range MPG isn't that good.

I'll keep my '99 Civic until a fast AWD electric car is cheap

 

[g-unit1111]

[quotemsg=10435406,4,579051]This thing is beautiful. The model S is a beautiful car on it's own, but it would look downright plain parked next to an ELR. I'd take an ELR over a model S in a half second. It's better looking, and you don't have to worry about running out of juice.[/quotemsg]

I saw a Model S the other day for the first time - it is a sweet car I will admit but it does look like an ordinary sedan rather than a $90K luxury car.

The bad thing is I was in the market for a hybrid but I was told by multiple dealers including Volkswagen and Hyundai that if you do a lot of highway driving (like I do) then a hybrid or electric vehicle isn't for you. You're better off going with a Diesel or a regular gas engine.

 

[ibjeepr]

[quotemsg=10435421,7,537231]I saw a Model S the other day for the first time - it is a sweet car I will admit but it does look like an ordinary sedan rather than a $90K luxury car.

The bad thing is I was in the market for a hybrid but I was told by multiple dealers including Volkswagen and Hyundai that if you do a lot of highway driving (like I do) then a hybrid or electric vehicle isn't for you. You're better off going with a Diesel or a regular gas engine.[/quotemsg]

The benefit of electric/ hybrid is pretty much in short trips. Mostly because you want to stay within the range of the battery for electric only vehicles and because the gas engine does pretty much all the work in hybrids at highway speeds so the battery is of little benefit. The VOLT / ELR is somewhere in the middle, leaning more towards electric than hybrid.

For a lot of long highway driving I would recommend diesel. Even in town diesel will give you good mileage but more importantly it doesn't feel like you are driving an economy car power wise. TORQUE BABY! You want to experience blissful highway cruising you have to try diesel.

 

[robochump]

[citation][nom]g-unit1111[/nom]I saw a Model S the other day for the first time - it is a sweet car I will admit but it does look like an ordinary sedan rather than a $90K luxury car. The bad thing is I was in the market for a hybrid but I was told by multiple dealers including Volkswagen and Hyundai that if you do a lot of highway driving (like I do) then a hybrid or electric vehicle isn't for you. You're better off going with a Diesel or a regular gas engine.[/citation]

Shocking to hear since VW and Hyundai both dont sell Hybrids...lol. They are full of BS though Diesel is a good alternative if priced right.

 

[Irrenhaus]

Shocking to hear since VW and Hyundai both dont sell Hybrids...lol. They are full of BS though Diesel is a good alternative if priced right.

Hyundai does have a hybrid. the 2012 Sonata. But diesel will be a good choice.
https://www.hyundaiusa.com/vehicles/2012/sonata-hybrid/?

Cheers

 

[AndrewMD]

[citation][nom]robochump[/nom]Shocking to hear since VW and Hyundai both dont sell Hybrids...lol. They are full of BS though Diesel is a good alternative if priced right.[/citation]

Hyundai makes a Hybrid.

 

[blazorthon]

My issue with the Volt was mostly of range. It's my understanding that it didn't have enough battery life to go more than several dozen miles whereas a fully loaded Tesla can go several hundred miles. Maybe I missed it somewhere in the huge walls of text in the article, but I didn't see this addressed. Am I wrong about the range of the volt and if not, has it been improved in this newer car?

 

[samwelaye]

[citation][nom]g-unit1111[/nom]The bad thing is I was in the market for a hybrid but I was told by multiple dealers including Volkswagen and Hyundai that if you do a lot of highway driving (like I do) then a hybrid or electric vehicle isn't for you. You're better off going with a Diesel or a regular gas engine.[/citation]

This is true. Many compacts get very high 30's or low 40's on the freeway, while hybrids only get about 45. Where hybrids truly shine is in mixed driving conditions, heavy traffic, city driving, etc. Standard gas engines are efficient when it comes to coasting, but stop and go kills it while hybrids stay strong.

 

[ibjeepr]

[quotemsg=10435440,12,412399]My issue with the Volt was mostly of range. It's my understanding that it didn't have enough battery life to go more than several dozen miles whereas a fully loaded Tesla can go several hundred miles. Maybe I missed it somewhere in the huge walls of text in the article, but I didn't see this addressed. Am I wrong about the range of the volt and if not, has it been improved in this newer car?[/quotemsg]

You aren't wrong about the range but you are missing the point.

The Volt goes about 40 miles on electric only then basicly runs for as long as you have gas for the engine just like a regular car.
This allows the Volt to go on as far a trip as you like.

The Tesla goes about 280 miles if i remember correctly but has no engine. Thus, once you are out of range, you're dead in the water.

It's two different approaches to the compromises necessary.
1) less battery but with an engine back up. Unlimited range and lower cost.
2) a lot of battery no engine. A lot more battery only range allowing for longer trips but at much higher cost and no "backup."

 

[bak0n]

[citation][nom]blakbird24[/nom]This thing is beautiful. The model S is a beautiful car on it's own, but it would look downright plain parked next to an ELR. I'd take an ELR over a model S in a half second. It's better looking, and you don't have to worry about running out of juice.[/citation]

I won't have to worry about running out of juice either. Being a 2nd car that will be used for commuting, not cross country trips. I'm sure many others of us that are looking to throw 80k toward a car are in the same boat, not looking at an electric as a lone car. Plus having a 10KW solar system in California means our "fueling" cost will be nearly non existent on a running yearly average.

 

[svdb]

I don't like Cadillac design. To me they look like cars from old sci-fi movies where everything had to be angular to look "cool". Dated.

 

[blazorthon]

[citation][nom]ibjeepr[/nom]You aren't wrong about the range but you are missing the point.The Volt goes about 40 miles on electric only then basicly runs for as long as you have gas for the engine just like a regular car.This allows the Volt to go on as far a trip as you like.The Tesla goes about 280 miles if i remember correctly but has no engine. Thus, once you are out of range, you're dead in the water.It's two different approaches to the compromises necessary.1) less battery but with an engine back up. Unlimited range and lower cost. 2) a lot of battery no engine. A lot more battery only range allowing for longer trips but at much higher cost and no "backup."[/citation]

Tesla can have two batteries, one stacked on the other (Even if not in all models, IDK if they all have the capability) for more like five hundred something miles of range IIRC. Also, even with one battery, running out of range seems unlikely unless you aren't careful. 280 miles or even just 200 miles between charges if you want to be more careful seems like a good range for the average person. I think that one battery (and especially two) would be plenty for most travel by car.

I'm not missing the point of anything in this AFAIK; I'm just saying that if you're not looking to use gas in the car, Tesla seems like the only option that has decent range unless I've missed some other electric cars that have good range without needing to burn fuel on their own.

 

[ibjeepr]

[quotemsg=10435459,17,412399]Tesla can have two batteries, one stacked on the other (Even if not in all models, IDK if they all have the capability) for more like five hundred something miles of range IIRC. Also, even with one battery, running out of range seems unlikely unless you aren't careful. 280 miles or even just 200 miles between charges if you want to be more careful seems like a good range for the average person. I think that one battery (and especially two) would be plenty for most travel by car.

I'm not missing the point of anything in this AFAIK; I'm just saying that if you're not looking to use gas in the car, Tesla seems like the only option that has decent range unless I've missed some other electric cars that have good range without needing to burn fuel on their own.[/quotemsg]


Actually, statistically, 40 miles on electric only has been determined to be plenty what most people do daily.

Regardless of a second battery or not, the Tesla wouldn't get me to Grandma's house so it is insufficient for long distance travel.
The ELR's not strapped with that restriction. So even if you don't need that benefit countless others would so your first post ignores that.
You're complaint was that it didn't go more than several dozen miles. You clearly didn't understand why it was set up that way or didn't specify that for your needs it wasn't enough. That's why I said you were missing the point of why the two different approaches.

If you don't wish to own two cars and want to do long distance travel by car, or simply don't want range anxiety for longer drives, the Tesla won't do it.

 

[blazorthon]

[citation][nom]ibjeepr[/nom]Actually, statistically, 40 miles on electric only has been determined to be plenty what most people do daily.Regardless of a second battery or not, the Tesla wouldn't get me to Grandma's house so it is insufficient for long distance travel.The ELR's not strapped with that restriction. So even if you don't need that benefit countless others would so your first post ignores that.You're complaint was that it didn't go more than several dozen miles. You clearly didn't understand why it was set up that way or didn't specify that for your needs it wasn't enough. That's why I said you were missing the point of why the two different approaches.If you don't wish to own two cars and want to do long distance travel by car, or simply don't want range anxiety for longer drives, the Tesla won't do it.[/citation]

I disagree with that determination and I have ever since I first read about it.

I didn't know that the Volt was a hybrid, that was my mistake, not a misunderstanding of the concept of a hybrid. My point was the range of car without the need of gas and yes, looking back on it, I admit that my post did have insufficient clarification to that point. My bad there.

It's my understanding that long distance travel is more commonly done by plane than by car these days.

My point was this: If you want an electric car with decent range without needing gas/diesel, Tesla seems to be the only option. Over 500 miles with both batteries isn't incredible, but it's most certainly enough to call decent.

For the record, a more than 500 mile range would be enough to get to my grandmother's house, granted I couldn't make the return trip without recharging.

 

[SGTgimpy]

[citation][nom]danwat1234[/nom]"201 hp (61 hp more than the Volt)" -- Don't have time to look it up but there are discussions on the internet that the drivetrain is no more powerful than the Volt. That 201HP figure may only be available at certain conditions,;; only when in range extended mode (the engine helping to propel along with the motor(s)).111KW/147HP is available at all times on both cars.WHo knows for sure. Look at the detailed press release specs.It's unfortunate that this expensive Cadillac doesn't have an Atkinson cycle engine like hybrids. So extended range MPG isn't that good.I'll keep my '99 Civic until a fast AWD electric car is cheap[/citation]


Just FYI the Volt/ELR does not use the gas motor to drive the wheels. It's like the Tesla and is only powered by the electric engine. In Volt/ELR the gas Engine is nothing more than an electric generator. It is never used nor is it physical connected to the drive wheels. Only Hybrids like the Prius use an Electric/gas power train hence the name Hybrid. In the ELR, GM just increased the Electric motors current output and most likely used higher end batteries than the Volt.

I looked at getting a Volt and would have if I had a place to plug it in at my Apartment. If you drive less than 40 miles a day, they are well worth the money. My friend has one now and has successfully driven to work every day for a month and is still sitting half-full on the gas tank.

 

[ibjeepr]

[quotemsg=10435487,19,412399]I totally disagree with that determination and I have ever since I first read about it.

I didn't know that the Volt was a hybrid, that was my mistake, not a misunderstanding of the concept of a hybrid. My point was the range of car without the need of gas and yes, looking back on it, I admit that my post did have insufficient clarification to that point. My bad there.

It's my understanding that long distance travel is more commonly done by plane than by car these days.

My point was this: If you want an electric car with decent range without needing gas/diesel, Tesla seems to be the only option. Over 500 miles with both batteries isn't incredible, but it's most certainly enough to call decent.

For the record, a more than 500 mile range would be enough to get to my grandmother's house, granted I couldn't make the return trip without recharging.[/quotemsg]

Technically the Volt / ELR is an extended range electric. It will run electric only for 40 miles. A hybrid will rely on it's engine in certain conditions regardless of miles.

It's and average and I don't like averages either. They aren't real numbers. Essentially 50% of the people could go over 40 and 50% under and the average, while technically correct, would still be a useless number in my opinion. The only thing that lends credence to the 40 mile average in my opinion is that insurance companies have known for a long time that most accidents happen within 10 miles of the home because most people stay within that radius, or close, for most errands and such.

Ya, if you want to go more than 40 on electric only, you don't have many choices. More seem to be coming though; albeit in small cars.

 

[blakbird24]

[citation][nom]bak0n[/nom]I won't have to worry about running out of juice either. Being a 2nd car that will be used for commuting, not cross country trips. I'm sure many others of us that are looking to throw 80k toward a car are in the same boat, not looking at an electric as a lone car. Plus having a 10KW solar system in California means our "fueling" cost will be nearly non existent on a running yearly average.[/citation]

The point is not about how likely you are to run out of juice, it's the fact that it's possible. In the Tesla, you may have 300 miles to go...and I certainly agree thats a damn nice range...but when you run out, you're done. That's never a problem with a two-mode Hybrid like the ELR.

Also, who buys a hybrid or electric as a "second" car? These things are not made for weekend cars or fun cars. These are daily drivers, built for the weekday routine. If i'm paying $80k+ for a "second" car, it will have no less than 8 cylinders and a supercharger. No compromise.

 

[The_Trutherizer]

At the moment any of the luxury sedan EVs are way out of my budget, but I do like seeing news about them. An EV would fit my lifestyle perfectly though.

Maybe when the BlueStar comes out...

 

[alextheblue]

[citation][nom]danwat1234[/nom]It's unfortunate that this expensive Cadillac doesn't have an Atkinson cycle engine like hybrids. So extended range MPG isn't that good[/citation]Atkinson cycle engines have no balls. In my opinion, it would be foolish to just slap in an Atkinson variant in this car without any additional changes. Especially at this price range. They need to wait until the second gen platform, and even then only if they couple it with a more powerful electric motor (or add additional electric motor(s)).

Also, there are other conditions in which the gas engine pitches in, not just when it is running in ER mode. For efficiency reasons the gas motor contributes at high speeds (on the highway) - you have to look at how the trans is set up to see why. I haven't seen tests comparing mileage at 80MPH+, but I will just say that EPA testing does not tell the whole story and I suspect doing real-world rush hour I-95 speeds in the Volt/ELR would be better than a Prius-type design in more ways than one.

For the Cadillac variant they might even throw in a toggle for Performance mode that kicks the gas engine more often - such as when they stomp the gas pedal. In fact, in ER mode you're more likely to LOSE power if you're really flogging the bejesus out of it. Abusive driving or the "endless mountain climb" scenario, with a low battery, could limit available power.

 

[alextheblue]

[citation][nom]sgtgimpy[/nom]Just FYI the Volt/ELR does not use the gas motor to drive the wheels. It's like the Tesla and is only powered by the electric engine. In Volt/ELR the gas Engine is nothing more than an electric generator. It is never used nor is it physical connected to the drive wheels.[/citation]This is not entirely true. Tell your friend to either use a gas stabilizer that also deals with the issues of ethanol and its attraction to water, or just drive the damn thing without plugging it in for a while (every now and then) to burn through the gasoline.[citation][nom]ibjeepr[/nom]Technically the Volt / ELR is an extended range electric. It will run electric only for 40 miles.[/citation]Again, not entirely true. At very high speeds the engine connects to the transmission and works together with the electric motors, for increased efficiency rather than increased horsepower.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/editorial/1010_unbolting_the_chevy_volt_to_see_how_it_ticks/

It's kind of like a more advanced version of the "eCVT" the Prius uses. It's actually pretty clever.