AGP and PCI-e on one motherboard?

[fluffman]

Hi,

Firstly let me explain im not a noob to the computer scene i just ended up being given a lot of hardware that was left over from other pc's. About 3 months ago, i realised i had had a pretty crappy rig, so i got a GPU, a Radeon X1600 (AGP). It works great and i can run HL:2 and Fear on full graphics.

So now i want to upgrade my cpu and my motherboard (which is a crappy old asus K8N). To be able to get the latest CPU's I need to upgrade to one with socket 939 (i think that is the latest AMD socket is it not??)

So now my problem is that I need a motherboard which supports AGP so my current card works, *also* supports PCI-e so in the future i can get PCI-e cards and also is new enough so I get a good cpu.

Is this even possible? If it is can i please have a recommendation on which CPU/Mobo pair to buy and how much it would cost me.

Many thanks,
Fluffman

 

[slicessoul]

Asrock 939 Dual SATA2 with AGP and PCI-E which was tested in Tomshardware. For the price and availability, check the egg.

 

[13thmonkey]

Hi,

Firstly let me explain im not a noob to the computer scene i just ended up being given a lot of hardware that was left over from other pc's. About 3 months ago, i realised i had had a pretty crappy rig, so i got a GPU, a Radeon X1600 (AGP). It works great and i can run HL:2 and Fear on full graphics.

So now i want to upgrade my cpu and my motherboard (which is a crappy old asus K8N). To be able to get the latest CPU's I need to upgrade to one with socket 939 (i think that is the latest AMD socket is it not??)

So now my problem is that I need a motherboard which supports AGP so my current card works, *also* supports PCI-e so in the future i can get PCI-e cards and also is new enough so I get a good cpu.

Is this even possible? If it is can i please have a recommendation on which CPU/Mobo pair to buy and how much it would cost me.

Many thanks,
Fluffman

Slicesoul is right and wrong, yes that board will do AGP and PCI-E, but it is not the latest AMD socket, socket 939 is being phased out (by now they have stopped producing CPU's the only ones left are those in stock...). If you want the latest AMD socket you are looking at socket AM2, and for intel 775 is still current.

I've just checked... and there is no AM2 mobo with AGP and PCi-E from asrock, not usre about other manufacturers.

BUT... the 939 dual VSTA that soulslice mentioned will take AM2 with the addition of a daugther card (if you can find them, I imagine that they might be tough to find.), read the specs on asrock site, this will take the DDR2 that the AM2 needs.

There might be a better option which is the asrock 775dualVSTA which will allow you to use your DDR and your AGP with a Core 2 Duo CPU...

 

[Crashman]

The only chipset that REALLY supports both is the M1695/M1567 combo from ULi, the reason it supports both is because it's actually made up of two northbridges (a PCI-E northbridge and an AGP northbridge/southbridge combo chip in the southbridge location). The chipset functions well, and the Asrock board the other guy recommended is the only board I know of to use it.

I spoke up because I'm sure you'll see a few recommendations for other products that simply aren't adequate. The Asrock Dual SATA2 is the ONLY product to do it "right", and lucky for you it IS socket 939.

 

[fluffman]

Okay so i see that a Asrock DUAL-VISTA is the only way of doin this and there are some on ebay.

So thanks for that guys.

So this mobo is socket 775 can anybody recommend any good 775 processors for less then $300 ?

Many Thanks,
Fluffman

 

[13thmonkey]

please do not buy on ebay.

either of the two lowest C2D's E6300 or E6400 would be good if you were to go with Intel. They are very fast and very cool, look up some of the reviews of Core 2 Duo for data behind this.

The 939 option is still valid, but you'll need that daughterboard to utilise AM2.

 

[linux_0]

Yes indeed :-D

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813157097

http://www.asrock.com/product/AM2CPU%20Board.htm


The AM2 daughtercard is available although 939 works just fine and would allow you to keep your existing 184pin DDR.


I would strongly advise against the 775Dual as it has a Via chipset and the implementation is nowhere near as good as the ULi chipset used on the 939Dual.

GL :-D

 

[fluffman]

lol why no ebay?

I love it, it has good prices and it is the only place i can find the parts... i hate livin in the UK...

so here are the parts i could buy:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-INTEL-CORE-2-DUO-E6400-CONROE-2-4GHZ-LGA-775_W0QQitemZ250040538478QQihZ015QQcategoryZ96868QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/INTEL-ASROCK-775-DUAL-VISTA-AGP-PCI-E-DDR-DDR2_W0QQitemZ170041387411QQihZ007QQcategoryZ108978QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

ok last question, i noticed this board has both ddr and ddr2 slots so could i use the ddr ram i have and buy some ddr2 also?

thanks for all the help guys,
Fluffman

 

[13thmonkey]

I'm running the 775 and its fine by me.

I'd argue that the upgrade path of the 939 dual means that you have to buy DDR2 and AM2 at the same time as AM2 will not work with the DDR2, but with the 775 you can run on either DDR or DDR2.

Therefore the upgrade path is better on the 775, but thats only if you are cost constrained, especially given DDR2 prices right now.

 

[13thmonkey]

in the UK.

www.scan.com - cheap prices, expensive shipping, overall quite good.
www.ebuyer.com - cheap prices, cheap shipping, good service response.
www.overclockers.co.uk - unkown.
www.komplett.co.uk - good prices, reasonable shipping, unknown service.
www.chillblast.com - specialist...

not as cheap as US but still good.

There are others, I just don't use them or haven't found them, I am still looking.

Ebay, you have limited guarentees and little technical support generally, its your money though...

 

[linux_0]

lol why no ebay?

I love it, it has good prices and it is the only place i can find the parts... i hate livin in the UK...

so here are the parts i could buy:

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/NEW-INTEL-CORE-2-DUO-E6400-CONROE-2-4GHZ-LGA-775_W0QQitemZ250040538478QQihZ015QQcategoryZ96868QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/INTEL-ASROCK-775-DUAL-VISTA-AGP-PCI-E-DDR-DDR2_W0QQitemZ170041387411QQihZ007QQcategoryZ108978QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

ok last question, i noticed this board has both ddr and ddr2 slots so could i use the ddr ram i have and buy some ddr2 also?

thanks for all the help guys,
Fluffman

You can't mix DDR and DDR2 on either Intel or AMDs.

If you opt for 939 your existing 184pin DDR will work just fine and you don't need to invest into 240pin DDR2.

Like Crashman said

The only chipset that REALLY supports both is the M1695/M1567 combo from ULi, the reason it supports both is because it's actually made up of two northbridges (a PCI-E northbridge and an AGP northbridge/southbridge combo chip in the southbridge location). The chipset functions well, and the Asrock board the other guy recommended is the only board I know of to use it.

The 939Dual is virtually the only board that implements AGP and PCI-E correctly on the same board. In other words you get a real full speed AGP 8X slot and a real full speed PCI-E X16 slot and you can use both at the same time in fact I used 2 VGAs in mine for a while.

I have 4 ASRock 939Dual-SATA2 boards I got from newegg and have used a few more to build servers for clients and they work fine it's a decent board for the money.

The AM2 daughtercard is only $30 USD or about 15 pounds.

It is my understanding the 775Dual implementation is inferior.

As far as ebay is concerned, I use it all the time but I rarely use it for mission critical parts on my primary machines (mobo, CPU, RAM, etc).

 

[13thmonkey]

was partway through posting when that last reply came in... apologies for the duplicate info.

simultaneous use of DDR and DDR2 is not supported, and it is not a board for overclocking, 5% max, VS >40% for C2D generally. Note that the PCI-E slot is physically x16, but electrically only x4, this is within the PCI-E standard and should not pose a problem, my 7900GTO copes fine with it, and scores about 10,000 in 3dmark05, which seems to be what is expected.

Linux, are you saying that you could use Am2 and DDR with the add on board, I did not think that you could. The OP originaly asked the question if 939 was the lastest AMD socket, and was assuming it was, however obviously it is not.

 

[13thmonkey]

lol why no ebay?

I love it, it has good prices and it is the only place i can find the parts... i hate livin in the UK...

scan is cheaper on both those parts, by about £15-20 in total.

 

[linux_0]

was partway through posting when that last reply came in... apologies for the duplicate info.

simultaneous use of DDR and DDR2 is not supported, and it is not a board for overclocking, 5% max, VS >40% for C2D generally. Note that the PCI-E slot is physically x16, but electrically only x4, this is within the PCI-E standard and should not pose a problem, my 7900GTO copes fine with it, and scores about 10,000 in 3dmark05, which seems to be what is expected.

Linux, are you saying that you could use Am2 and DDR with the add on board, I did not think that you could. The OP originaly asked the question if 939 was the lastest AMD socket, and was assuming it was, however obviously it is not.

Negative, I did not say you can use AM2 with DDR.

All K8 AMDs have an integrated memory controller so you must use what the IMC on the CPU supports.

184 pin DDR for 754/939/940 etc
240pin DDR2 for AM2 / Socket F etc

The AM2 daughtercard has 240pin DDR2 slots for use with AM2 CPUs.

 

[Crashman]

You really don't want to run your AGP8x card on a PCI slot, which is what the VIA AGP/PCIe combos do. Not only is it slow, but most boards won't even work with a non AGP2x compatible card because PCI signals are 3.3V.

AGP 1.0 is 2x and 3.3v, AGP2.0 is 4x and 1.5v, AGP3.0 is 8x and 0.8V. All 8x cards are 4x compatible (0.8V/1.5V) but only around half of them are 3.3V compatible (8x/4x/2x).

3.3V compatible cards have the forward voltage key, 1.5V compatible cards have the rear voltage key, 8x/4x/2x and 4x/2x cards have both keys. But these crappy PCI to AGP implementations often use an AGP Universal Slot, so that cards that don't work will still fit.

 

[13thmonkey]

[

You can't mix DDR and DDR2 on either Intel or AMDs.

If you opt for 939 your existing 184pin DDR will work just fine and you don't need to invest into 240pin DDR2.

Just want to confirm for the OP that you would need DDR2 when they went for the current AMD socket on that Mobo, it wasn't immeadiately obvious given what you had said.

 

[fluffman]

So what i need to buy is this lot:

http://www.asrock.com/product/939Dual-SATA2.htm

http://www.asrock.com/product/AM2CPU%20Board.htm

and then any AMD AM2 compatible CPU ??

??

 

[13thmonkey]

and some DDR2 ram.

 

[linux_0]

You really don't want to run your AGP8x card on a PCI slot, which is what the VIA AGP/PCIe combos do. Not only is it slow, but most boards won't even work with a non AGP2x compatible card because PCI signals are 3.3V.

AGP 1.0 is 2x and 3.3v, AGP2.0 is 4x and 1.5v, AGP3.0 is 8x and 0.8V. All 8x cards are 4x compatible (0.8V/1.5V) but only around half of them are 3.3V compatible (8x/4x/2x).

3.3V compatible cards have the forward voltage key, 1.5V compatible cards have the rear voltage key, 8x/4x/2x and 4x/2x cards have both keys. But these crappy PCI to AGP implementations often use an AGP Universal Slot, so that cards that don't work will still fit.

Precisely!

The PCI-E slot in not a real X16 slot and the AGP slot runs over PCI causing the issues Crashman described above.

It is not a very good solution at all ( as in the 775Dual ).

The 939Dual offers real 100% native AGP 8x and PCI-E X16 slots.

The other issue is DDR tends to somewhat cripple the Intel CPUs while AMDs still perform very well with DDR.

 

[linux_0]

So what i need to buy is this lot:

http://www.asrock.com/product/939Dual-SATA2.htm

http://www.asrock.com/product/AM2CPU%20Board.htm

and then any AMD AM2 compatible CPU ??

??

If you wish to go the AM2 route you would need the 939Dual-SATA2 or VSTA board + the AM2 daughtercard + an AM2 CPU + DDR2


If you take the 939 route all you need is your existing 184pin DDR + the 939Dual-SATA2/VSTA + a 939 CPU


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813157097

+

http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.asp?Order=PRICE&Page=1&Category=34&Brand=1028&N=2000340343+50001028+1051707439&Submit=ENE&Nty=1&SubCategory=343



I realize you're in the UK, sorry I don't have UK specific links.

 

[bourgeoisdude]

I'm running the 775 and its fine by me.

I'd argue that the upgrade path of the 939 dual means that you have to buy DDR2 and AM2 at the same time as AM2 will not work with the DDR2, but with the 775 you can run on either DDR or DDR2.

Therefore the upgrade path is better on the 775, but thats only if you are cost constrained, especially given DDR2 prices right now.

Nope, the riser card has DDR2 memory slots, and w/o the riser you use the built-in DDR. With DDR2 memory prices way up, why not get the 939 solution anyway? Currently, there is still little benifit to AM2 using DDR2 memory, the benchmarks have shown this time and time again...

...by the way, there are two ASROCK mobo's that use the ULi chipset: the one in my sig, and the 939-Dual-Vista version. Either one works fine. Hmmm--Linux_0 has already pointed this out. Well, we agree, so perhaps we might know what we're talking about (OH NO! I can't believe that I'm agreeing with a LINUX user!) :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[13thmonkey]

You really don't want to run your AGP8x card on a PCI slot, which is what the VIA AGP/PCIe combos do. Not only is it slow, but most boards won't even work with a non AGP2x compatible card because PCI signals are 3.3V.

AGP 1.0 is 2x and 3.3v, AGP2.0 is 4x and 1.5v, AGP3.0 is 8x and 0.8V. All 8x cards are 4x compatible (0.8V/1.5V) but only around half of them are 3.3V compatible (8x/4x/2x).

3.3V compatible cards have the forward voltage key, 1.5V compatible cards have the rear voltage key, 8x/4x/2x and 4x/2x cards have both keys. But these crappy PCI to AGP implementations often use an AGP Universal Slot, so that cards that don't work will still fit.

Precisely!

The PCI-E slot in not a real X16 slot and the AGP slot runs over PCI causing the issues Crashman described above.

It is not a very good solution at all ( as in the 775Dual ).

The 939Dual offers real 100% native AGP 8x and PCI-E X16 slots.

The other issue is DDR tends to somewhat cripple the Intel CPUs while AMDs still perform very well with DDR.

the anandtech reviews show minor performance loss with PC3200 vs PC2-6400 in real world not enough to go and buy more RAM unless you had to anyway.

I've got the 775Dual, and it worked find with AGP and PCI-E so far, and have not noticed any performance issues, however I do accept that I have a sample of 1, and little other than charts to compare against.

The bandwidth in the PCi-Ex4 is enough, it appears, to feed a 7900GTO adequately. As a stepping stone board to get me to PCI-E and DDR2 and SATA I think it is a perfectly reasonable solution that does not mean I have to spend everything at once.

On a different note, does mounting the CPU sideways on the AM2 board cause interference problems with the HSF? or airlfow problems in the case?

 

[bourgeoisdude]

You missed the point.

The bandwidth problems with the 775 socket board are not the big problems, running in PCI mode is one of the big ones, and as Crashman points out:

"3.3V compatible cards have the forward voltage key, 1.5V compatible cards have the rear voltage key, 8x/4x/2x and 4x/2x cards have both keys. But these crappy PCI to AGP implementations often use an AGP Universal Slot, so that cards that don't work will still fit."

 

[djgandy]

2 options here.

1)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813157092
+
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16819115005


Or if you can find a 939 cpu that you think caters for your needs for very cheap.

2)
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813157097
+
939 CPU


Fx-55's are going for $200 on newegg.
They are single core, and the e6300 is faster than them.
Also the e6300 puts you on the new technology road

Since i have just realised you are UK (even though said prices in dollars 😛)

DUAL VSTA 775
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=434321

E6300
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=430631
E6400
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=430632
E6600
http://www.scan.co.uk/Products/ProductInfo.asp?WebProductID=430633

I went for the 6400 + VSTA a few months back, it came to just under 200 with delivery.

Had no problems with it at all so far, cpu runs ~40c all the time.
My old athlon 2800 ran at ~60c.

It's great for multi-tasking, runs fast at stock.

You can only get the FSB to 300mhz but who cares, its a very cheap board, anyone that moans about that is mentally retarded. It saved me over 400quid in my upgrade price (when you consider 2gig ddr2, an expensive mobo to make it even worth spending all that money on ddr2, pci-e graphics)

If it dies in a years time i'll have had my money's worth.

 

[linux_0]

You missed the point.

The bandwidth problems with the 775 socket board are not the big problems, running in PCI mode is one of the big ones, and as Crashman points out:

"3.3V compatible cards have the forward voltage key, 1.5V compatible cards have the rear voltage key, 8x/4x/2x and 4x/2x cards have both keys. But these crappy PCI to AGP implementations often use an AGP Universal Slot, so that cards that don't work will still fit."

Indeed Crashman, bourgeoisdude and I agree that the AGP slot is crippled and has compatibility issues on the 775Dual while the PCI-E slot is not quite as bad although only PCI-E X4.

The 939Dual does not have this issue.

Also I am not aware of any cooling or other issues with the daughter card if you opt for AM2, although bourgeoisdude and I agree that you are probably better off with socket 939 which would be the most logical / inexpensive solution.