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ShadowFlash
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- Feb 28, 2009
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I still use a pair of dual-socket P4 Xeon ( with HT ) at work for light CAD work that use AGP. If one of the video cards in these went belly-up, I'de probablly replace it, NOT buy a whole new machine. They both run older software that dosen't require an upgrade to suit our uses. They both have 4x U160 15K SCSI HDD's in them along with 3GB RAM. If I upgraded the whole machine, I would have to upgrade everything. My HDD's ( which are still considered fast at 200MB/s in RAID 10 ) could not migrate to a new machine either as they run off a 64-bit PCI-X controller card. I also doubt if the "CPU bottleneck" in my case would be a deal-breaker. It's simply more cost effective to replace the card than the whole system.
[citation][nom]JWL3[/nom]ta152hYou have no idea what you're talking about. There are numerous benchmarks that show that at this point, a PCI-E slot is significantly faster than AGP and an AGP 8x slot is faster than an AGP 4x slot. If that were the case, why in the world would video card makers, motherboard mfrs. all migrate to this new standard? Putting this 4650 card into an AGP system is like putting $1000 Pirelli P-Zero tires on a rusting 40-year-old VW beetle. Why???[/citation]
JWL, actually, you really have no idea about technology, do you, or you didn't read my post properly.
If you have enough memory on the card, the bus doesn't matter. Do you understand that? It only matters if you have to do transfers from memory, which only happens if you don't have memory on the card. AGP, like PCIe, is really a low-end implementation if you're using one card. Ideally, you have enough memory so it doesn't matter. That was the big fuss when AGP came out. It was really only useful for low-end cards without enough memory, so that if you really needed to use the main memory, you didn't degrade performance nearly as much as you would using PCI. But, ideally, you should use the bus for this.
I'm not that familiar with these two video cards used in systems, so I don't know what type of bandwidth they use to communicate with each other. Maybe there's a benefit there, but I doubt it, since you really wouldn't be sending data back and forth. But, at any rate, it's feasible with PCIe, and not AGP since you have only one slot.
But anyway, the bus doesn't matter if you have enough memory. It's only when you don't that it matters. I know this is hard for you to understand, but think about it. What type of data is being sent over the bus? Commands are very small, and bandwidth doesn't matter, and the data for the visuals should be held on the card's memory. So, what else is being sent? It's only if you have to store data in main memory that it makes a difference, and if you do that, you're already running slower, and, ideally, shouldn't be.
JWL, actually, you really have no idea about technology, do you, or you didn't read my post properly.
If you have enough memory on the card, the bus doesn't matter. Do you understand that? It only matters if you have to do transfers from memory, which only happens if you don't have memory on the card. AGP, like PCIe, is really a low-end implementation if you're using one card. Ideally, you have enough memory so it doesn't matter. That was the big fuss when AGP came out. It was really only useful for low-end cards without enough memory, so that if you really needed to use the main memory, you didn't degrade performance nearly as much as you would using PCI. But, ideally, you should use the bus for this.
I'm not that familiar with these two video cards used in systems, so I don't know what type of bandwidth they use to communicate with each other. Maybe there's a benefit there, but I doubt it, since you really wouldn't be sending data back and forth. But, at any rate, it's feasible with PCIe, and not AGP since you have only one slot.
But anyway, the bus doesn't matter if you have enough memory. It's only when you don't that it matters. I know this is hard for you to understand, but think about it. What type of data is being sent over the bus? Commands are very small, and bandwidth doesn't matter, and the data for the visuals should be held on the card's memory. So, what else is being sent? It's only if you have to store data in main memory that it makes a difference, and if you do that, you're already running slower, and, ideally, shouldn't be.
haze4peace
Distinguished
- Mar 3, 2009
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I'm still on an AGP system, although I will not be doing anymore upgrading. I'm saving up for a new build right now. This one has served me well for the last 5 or so years. Time to move on to the future.
******************************************
This is only a DDR2 memory video card !!
gigabyte GV-R465D2-1GI Radeon HD 4650 1GB 128-bit GDDR2 AGP 8X HDCP
It doesn't go anywhere near a HD3850 agp with 512 of 256-BitGDDR3 !!
READ THE SPECS !
HUGE memory bandwith difference
It ain't NO agp cadillac it's an 1982 plymouth reliant K-car POS
******************************************
This is only a DDR2 memory video card !!
gigabyte GV-R465D2-1GI Radeon HD 4650 1GB 128-bit GDDR2 AGP 8X HDCP
It doesn't go anywhere near a HD3850 agp with 512 of 256-BitGDDR3 !!
READ THE SPECS !
HUGE memory bandwith difference
It ain't NO agp cadillac it's an 1982 plymouth reliant K-car POS
******************************************
It would appear that a 4670 agp card is on display at computex. Maybe agp does still have a little life left. With a dual core and 2 gigs ram it should game ok.
Over at fudzilla there is an article about a 4670 coming for AGP from Powercolor.
http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/14067/1/
AGP card still may be worthwhile upgrade for some people. My dad is still on a S939 system with a dual core X2 and x1950 pro, and he has no problems with the games he plays at 1680x1050, which is mostly RTCW:ET and COD 4.
http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/14067/1/
AGP card still may be worthwhile upgrade for some people. My dad is still on a S939 system with a dual core X2 and x1950 pro, and he has no problems with the games he plays at 1680x1050, which is mostly RTCW:ET and COD 4.
NuclearShadow
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- Sep 20, 2007
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I'm sure we all have fond memories with AGP videocards. But really its time to put them to rest. The cost of these cards will be high and you will have a awful bottleneck. I doubt the performance difference between this card and the 3850 AGP will be any different.
If your considering buying this don't. Just save the money and build a low end gaming PC which isn't expensive at all.
If your considering buying this don't. Just save the money and build a low end gaming PC which isn't expensive at all.
[citation][nom]Bo2[/nom].....and there aren't any AGP/PCI-e hybrids either..... Yes there are. http://www.asrock.com/mb/overview. [...] ATA2&s=939[/citation]
Thank you! I still have a socket 939 Dual SATA2 that has both agp and pci-e. I don't know if this board will run in crossfirex mode or not, so I can't say that the author's comment is completely invalid. I do know that it will run both ports at the same time. Matter of fact, it supports running a PCI-e, AGP and PCI card at the same time. Of course, I haven't heard of a PCI gfx card that supports crossfire mode, either.
Thank you! I still have a socket 939 Dual SATA2 that has both agp and pci-e. I don't know if this board will run in crossfirex mode or not, so I can't say that the author's comment is completely invalid. I do know that it will run both ports at the same time. Matter of fact, it supports running a PCI-e, AGP and PCI card at the same time. Of course, I haven't heard of a PCI gfx card that supports crossfire mode, either.
cletus_slackjawd
Distinguished
- Dec 26, 2006
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I'd buy one just to keep AGP alive. I love AGP like the son I never had. AGP can't be stopped. It will not be reasoned with. Just get used to it, it's stronger than you are.
ShadowFlash
Distinguished
- Feb 28, 2009
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[citation][nom]rambo117[/nom]just kill agp... let those people that built their "dream AGP systems" sell them and build around PCIx 2.0[/citation]
That's fine for a single machine, however I started with 4 "dream machines" and since have retired/replaced 2 of them for production high-end work and kept them for spare parts for the remaining 2. I have no plans to replace the remaining 2 anytime soon and hope they last another 2 years or so. Contrary to the gamer-only crowd, there are uses for video cards other than games. Even for gaming, in a household like mine with 2 adults and 3 kids old enough to "play", passing computers down the line is a neccesity. If replacing 1 single component makes that legacy PC usable, then it's money well spent. I get so irritated by this "throw-it-away" mentality. Try managing multiple computers and spend your own money on computers you'll never use, then we'll talk. There is no reason my 8 year old needs a "new gaming machine", yet without new shader model support, he cannot even play newer games that would otherwise run fine on low settings. I'm actually glad that so many share this sentiment, as it means I usually get decent P4 machines for free now as somebody elses throw-aways. My kids love having there "very own" computer, and if I have to invest alittle to make it functional, it's worth it because I certainly will not be building them a brand new machine anytime soon.
That's fine for a single machine, however I started with 4 "dream machines" and since have retired/replaced 2 of them for production high-end work and kept them for spare parts for the remaining 2. I have no plans to replace the remaining 2 anytime soon and hope they last another 2 years or so. Contrary to the gamer-only crowd, there are uses for video cards other than games. Even for gaming, in a household like mine with 2 adults and 3 kids old enough to "play", passing computers down the line is a neccesity. If replacing 1 single component makes that legacy PC usable, then it's money well spent. I get so irritated by this "throw-it-away" mentality. Try managing multiple computers and spend your own money on computers you'll never use, then we'll talk. There is no reason my 8 year old needs a "new gaming machine", yet without new shader model support, he cannot even play newer games that would otherwise run fine on low settings. I'm actually glad that so many share this sentiment, as it means I usually get decent P4 machines for free now as somebody elses throw-aways. My kids love having there "very own" computer, and if I have to invest alittle to make it functional, it's worth it because I certainly will not be building them a brand new machine anytime soon.
momcilosystem
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- May 30, 2009
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Just a few days ago I had in my hands old board which was PCIe and AGP hybrid... so they exist!
Greetings from Serbia
Greetings from Serbia
royalcrown
Distinguished
- May 31, 2006
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[citation][nom]kami3k[/nom]All the games you listed have crap for graphics unless on max anyway. Try playing games like Crysis, CoD 4, Fallout 3, etc on anything but low. Oh wait you are probably running what, 1028x72? lol. And epeens? Awww is the poor person jealous that people actually have jobs and the money to run systems that can actually play games the way they are suppose to be played? It has nothing to with having ADD or asking mom for money. Really shit like that just screams you being jealous and acting like a child.[/citation]
Why would I be jealous with an e8500 and 8 gigs on an ep-45-UD3R ? Fallout 3 is right on my desk BTW and Crysis...piece of crap even on a VW222u ASUS. You need to learn that games like COH can be fun without all the eye candy, fancy graphics doesen't mean the game is necessarily any good.
Why would I be jealous with an e8500 and 8 gigs on an ep-45-UD3R ? Fallout 3 is right on my desk BTW and Crysis...piece of crap even on a VW222u ASUS. You need to learn that games like COH can be fun without all the eye candy, fancy graphics doesen't mean the game is necessarily any good.
Belardo
Splendid
- Nov 23, 2008
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PCIe / AGP Hybrid boards are limited in supply and generally don't really work (ECS) in that the AGP port is wired to the PCI BUS. What this means is (A) the video card is severely limited to the PCI bus so performance suffers, badly. (B) If I remember right, not even half the AGP cards would even work on it.
---
To the guy who said RAM on the video card matters, so PCI wasn't slower than AGP, and PCIe isn't much faster than AGP etc.
Wrong. The video data has to be feed to the video card, the video card builds the image and stored it in its framebuffer (memory) before being output through the video port. All PCI video cards don't get any better than a GF 5200/6200... because the performance of the PCI bus is maxed out. Until recently, yes - a top end well made AGP card was just as fast as its PCIe brother. This didn't include Nvidia as the 7600GT-AGP performed like the 7600gs-PCIe... and cost more than the 7600GT-PCIe.
But, the ATI 3850 is the fastest AGP card on the market. The 4650 is a lower performance card than the 3850. Also, 3850AGP go for about $95~125. The 3650AGPs are about $75~95 (why bother?)
If you have an AGP AMD-X2 4400 PC compared to a PCIe vesion of the same computer, the 3850 performed the same on both computers.
But... thats the limit of AGP. The 3850, as of today is a $50-value card, a good low-end gaming card. Anything more powerful (GPU and CPU) are beyond the abilites of AGP systems. All modern AMD CPUs only fit in mobos with PCIe (same with intel).
If someone has a very good AGP system, it maybe worth it to buy a replacement card. If they have a OLD AGP system, like a P4 setup - its time to sell it and buy a new modern system.
AGP is pretty much dead.
---
To the guy who said RAM on the video card matters, so PCI wasn't slower than AGP, and PCIe isn't much faster than AGP etc.
Wrong. The video data has to be feed to the video card, the video card builds the image and stored it in its framebuffer (memory) before being output through the video port. All PCI video cards don't get any better than a GF 5200/6200... because the performance of the PCI bus is maxed out. Until recently, yes - a top end well made AGP card was just as fast as its PCIe brother. This didn't include Nvidia as the 7600GT-AGP performed like the 7600gs-PCIe... and cost more than the 7600GT-PCIe.
But, the ATI 3850 is the fastest AGP card on the market. The 4650 is a lower performance card than the 3850. Also, 3850AGP go for about $95~125. The 3650AGPs are about $75~95 (why bother?)
If you have an AGP AMD-X2 4400 PC compared to a PCIe vesion of the same computer, the 3850 performed the same on both computers.
But... thats the limit of AGP. The 3850, as of today is a $50-value card, a good low-end gaming card. Anything more powerful (GPU and CPU) are beyond the abilites of AGP systems. All modern AMD CPUs only fit in mobos with PCIe (same with intel).
If someone has a very good AGP system, it maybe worth it to buy a replacement card. If they have a OLD AGP system, like a P4 setup - its time to sell it and buy a new modern system.
AGP is pretty much dead.
mindless728
Splendid
- Jul 15, 2008
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ok, people need to stop telling the P4 users with AGP to save and get a new computer instead of upgrading to a newer video card, AGP is at its limit, it doesn't get any better
eyemaster
Distinguished
- Apr 28, 2009
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[citation][nom]kingnoobe[/nom]I think some of you guys are missing the point. This costs 100$ it's not worth it to buy. No matter how you feel about agp. Save up a 150 and get twice the computer.[/citation]
What are you people smoking? I could buy this card at say 150$ CAN and have better faster graphics than I have now OR I could buy a CPU 200$, RAM 100$, MB 100$ and a new graphics card at 200$ which totals 600$ + tax for much better faster graphics? Hmm, I think I'll go for the cheaper option for now until I'm willing to shell out major money for major improvements.
Enthusiast KIDS often miss the point, so I don't blame most of you here... Wait until you're an adult with other things to pay, you won't feel the same way anymore.
What are you people smoking? I could buy this card at say 150$ CAN and have better faster graphics than I have now OR I could buy a CPU 200$, RAM 100$, MB 100$ and a new graphics card at 200$ which totals 600$ + tax for much better faster graphics? Hmm, I think I'll go for the cheaper option for now until I'm willing to shell out major money for major improvements.
Enthusiast KIDS often miss the point, so I don't blame most of you here... Wait until you're an adult with other things to pay, you won't feel the same way anymore.
nukemaster
Titan
- Nov 23, 2004
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[citation][nom]sanloublues[/nom]Here's at least one mobo w/ PCI-E and AGP: http://www.tomshardware.com/review [...] ,1120.htmlI recall there were dual AGP mobotherboards too, but can't find the links right now because google thinks I want to find dual cpu mobos.[/citation]
Thats what i was thinking....
Thats what i was thinking....
captaincharisma
Glorious
- Oct 13, 2004
- 10,959
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dude there is no way you can get a barenone kit for the same price as an AGP. the lowest price for a barebone kit on tigerdirect is roughly $260.00 and the most expensive AGP card is $150.00. plus you do not get everything with a barebone kit and depending on how old the computer is you will have to fork more money into the barebone kit to get a fully working computer.
and kingy there is nothing you can say about paying for everything cause these kind of statements have no credibility on the net. for all we know you could be a 13 year old kid just typing BS. so just stop cause nobody believes this stuff no matter who says it
and kingy there is nothing you can say about paying for everything cause these kind of statements have no credibility on the net. for all we know you could be a 13 year old kid just typing BS. so just stop cause nobody believes this stuff no matter who says it
ShadowFlash
Distinguished
- Feb 28, 2009
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This is funny. Comparing a high-end AGP-based system to an ultra low-end new build as being cost effective. So here ya go Mr. Wizards...this is probablly my favorite AGP machine still in operation...
Intel SE7505VB2 motherboard
8x AGP Slot, 2x PCI-X 100Mhz, 1x PCI-X 133Mhz, 2x 32-bit PCI, 4GB DDR266 ECC
Processors
2x 3.06Ghz Xeon w/HT 1MB Cache
OS/System Drive
2x U160 15K 36GB SCSI in RAID 1 on a MegaRAID 1600 Enterprise Controller Card
Program Drive
2x 300GB Sata ( onboard controller ) in RAID 1
Internal Storage
4x 250GB IDE ( ATA-133 ) in RAID 10 on a 3ware 7504 controller
Other
14x U160 10K 36GB SCSI in Compaq 4354 dual-channel external disk shelf used for VM's also on compaq 5304 Smart Array Controller
So...Go ahead and upgrade me. Points to keep in mind though....
1: You can't sell this to pay for the new parts, because AGP is obsolete, and you'de never recommend anyone buying it.
2: All 3 of my controller cards are PCI-X cards with 128-256MB cache and Battery back-up. My SCSI drives are lightning fast evem for there age, and my IDE TeraByte Cage is very fast ( and redundant ) also.
3: This being an upgrade, no area should go down in performance...equal or better only.
4: Notice I use RAID for both Performance AND Redundancy...This must be maintained or a new system would be comparably lacking.
5: The 14-Drive External SCSI case is admittedly unique and could be sacrificed in favor of a seperate spindle RAID config.
6: For those that think this is a rare case, consider that I also run a Dell Precision 530 and 2x HP x4000's, all with dual Xeons, PCI-X controller cards, and SCSI drives. This kind of st-up was very common for workstation machines.
If one of my 7600 AGP 512MB ( used in all systems listed ) would fail, why would I "upgrade" vs. a simple $100 fix.
Good luck building a replacement for less than $300......
Intel SE7505VB2 motherboard
8x AGP Slot, 2x PCI-X 100Mhz, 1x PCI-X 133Mhz, 2x 32-bit PCI, 4GB DDR266 ECC
Processors
2x 3.06Ghz Xeon w/HT 1MB Cache
OS/System Drive
2x U160 15K 36GB SCSI in RAID 1 on a MegaRAID 1600 Enterprise Controller Card
Program Drive
2x 300GB Sata ( onboard controller ) in RAID 1
Internal Storage
4x 250GB IDE ( ATA-133 ) in RAID 10 on a 3ware 7504 controller
Other
14x U160 10K 36GB SCSI in Compaq 4354 dual-channel external disk shelf used for VM's also on compaq 5304 Smart Array Controller
So...Go ahead and upgrade me. Points to keep in mind though....
1: You can't sell this to pay for the new parts, because AGP is obsolete, and you'de never recommend anyone buying it.
2: All 3 of my controller cards are PCI-X cards with 128-256MB cache and Battery back-up. My SCSI drives are lightning fast evem for there age, and my IDE TeraByte Cage is very fast ( and redundant ) also.
3: This being an upgrade, no area should go down in performance...equal or better only.
4: Notice I use RAID for both Performance AND Redundancy...This must be maintained or a new system would be comparably lacking.
5: The 14-Drive External SCSI case is admittedly unique and could be sacrificed in favor of a seperate spindle RAID config.
6: For those that think this is a rare case, consider that I also run a Dell Precision 530 and 2x HP x4000's, all with dual Xeons, PCI-X controller cards, and SCSI drives. This kind of st-up was very common for workstation machines.
If one of my 7600 AGP 512MB ( used in all systems listed ) would fail, why would I "upgrade" vs. a simple $100 fix.
Good luck building a replacement for less than $300......
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