All About Bitcoin Mining: Road To Riches Or Fool's Gold?

[Darkman69]

This almost kind of sounds like a Ponzi scheme. You're basically putting a finite amount of resources out there for the taking. Then people give you just as much back in the hopes they themselves will get more out of their initial investment.

Bitcoin is a game in where only the smartest with the deepest pockets will make something of it. How well you do in Bitcoin is directly related to your intelligence, money and discipline that you can apply to your Bitcoin mining.

 

[slomo4sho]

If by real you mean the monopoly money that the government can print off at will and has a lock on by the use of force LOL. FIAT currency only has power over people because of the apathy of the people.

So is this FIAT currency somehow more worthwhile than other FIAT currencies?

 

[g-unit1111]

This almost kind of sounds like a Ponzi scheme. You're basically putting a finite amount of resources out there for the taking. Then people give you just as much back in the hopes they themselves will get more out of their initial investment.

Bitcoin is a game in where only the smartest with the deepest pockets will make something of it. How well you do in Bitcoin is directly related to your intelligence, money and discipline that you can apply to your Bitcoin mining.

That's kind of why I've been really suspicious about it from the beginning. The fact that there's a set, finite amount of coins out there already sounds sketchy to me. And then add to the fact that you need deep pockets and an always on PC to be able to mine for coins thoroughly means that only a select few can get the most out of it.

 

[4745454b]

Do you have a problem with gold as money? There is a set finite amount of that. But no one I know has an issue with using gold as a money standard. The problem with paper money like we use now is that it's not backed by anything other then the guns, I mean power that the government has that prints it. Do you know what run away inflation means? Having a finite something backing the money is a good thing.

 

[Onus]

I wouldn't invest "real" money in it,

If by real you mean the monopoly money that the government can print off at will and has a lock on by the use of force LOL. FIAT currency only has power over people because of the apathy of the people.

There's a reason I put "real" in quotes. Perhaps "legal tender" would have been a more accurate term.
More and more countries are beginning to transact their business in other than U.S. Dollars. All it will take is the Chinese to back their currency with gold, and the Almight Dollar will be flicked off its perch as the world's reserve currency. As a U.S. citizen, I know this will mean hard times. As an Objectivist, it makes perfect sense for that to happen. I suspect that only the Chinese' need for a market to sell their junk has prevented it from happening so far. We're locked in a codependency, and I don't see it ending well.
I see crypto-currency, with finite amounts available, as not too different from gold; in the sense that a mathematically-defined discovery process gradually makes more available, much as the mining of gold (or silver, or copper, etc) would do. A key advantage is that it prevents so-called "monetary policy," controlled by parasites, from creating more of it out of thin air.

 

[Darkman69]

This almost kind of sounds like a Ponzi scheme. You're basically putting a finite amount of resources out there for the taking. Then people give you just as much back in the hopes they themselves will get more out of their initial investment.

Bitcoin is a game in where only the smartest with the deepest pockets will make something of it. How well you do in Bitcoin is directly related to your intelligence, money and discipline that you can apply to your Bitcoin mining. Also I must add that I am not a Bitcoin fanboy or anything as I don't understand how computer code works and I can't read it so I really am just as helpless in the Bitcoin world as in the real world because I like most people are at the whim of the people whom write the rules book at will. That said the Bitcoin source code is avaiable i do belive to anyone that wants to take a look at it but as i said it's like Chinese to me.

That's kind of why I've been really suspicious about it from the beginning. The fact that there's a set, finite amount of coins out there already sounds sketchy to me. And then add to the fact that you need deep pockets and an always on PC to be able to mine for coins thoroughly means that only a select few can get the most out of it.

I like the odds of Bitcoin better than the odds of the current monetary economic paradigm that is only in use because of the governments use of the initiation of violence against the people it is supposed to protect. Printing infinite amounts of money in a finite world can only lead to one thing.

 

[Onus]

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I like the odds of Bitcoin better than the odds of the current monetary economic paradigm that is only in use because of the governments use of the initiation of violence against the people it is supposed to protect. Printing infinite amounts of money in a finite world can only lead to one thing.

Precisely. Hyperinflation is coming. Darkman, I think we've been on the same page throughout this discussion.

 

[Darkman69]

If by real you mean the monopoly money that the government can print off at will and has a lock on by the use of force LOL. FIAT currency only has power over people because of the apathy of the people.

So is this FIAT currency somehow more worthwhile than other FIAT currencies?

Bitcoin is not FIAT at all. The Government has absolutely nothing to do with Bitcoin. Bitcoin is a true "Free-Market"

 

[Darkman69]

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I like the odds of Bitcoin better than the odds of the current monetary economic paradigm that is only in use because of the governments use of the initiation of violence against the people it is supposed to protect. Printing infinite amounts of money in a finite world can only lead to one thing.

Precisely. Hyperinflation is coming. Darkman, I think we've been on the same page throughout this discussion.

Inflation is a temporary bandaid fix to a permanent problem. The problem with inflation is that it adds absolutely nothing of any real tangible value to society while it's driving up the cost of living and the only fix in more inflation LOL. Inflation would be ok if the value and production of the workers were to raise at a 1:1 ratio along with inflation but the reality is that this is not the fact. I could go into some real deep semantics's about socioeconomics and Humans relationship and responsibility's and relationship to the Planet but really this is most likely the wrong forum for that and I don't have time right now.

 

[Darkman69]

Do you have a problem with gold as money? There is a set finite amount of that. But no one I know has an issue with using gold as a money standard. The problem with paper money like we use now is that it's not backed by anything other then the guns, I mean power that the government has that prints it. Do you know what run away inflation means? Having a finite something backing the money is a good thing.

What you say is very true but it would also mean that the people that drive expensive cars and live in big homes etc ... they would have to cut back to a more frugal and modest means like the rest of us. This is an extremely complex topic we are getting into here but I feel that pretty well everyone with a halfway healthy and sane mindset all wants the same things in life but the reality is that the earths resources are finite so not everyone can have it all. Somebody always has to be the loser in order for someone else to win.

 

[hetneo]

But nearly useless from a technical standpoint which is important IMO.
Beside the hardware is getting more and more expensive as the difficulty increases virtually negating gains.

A parallel crypto currency is a huge step in the right direction away from Debt based FIAT currency. You have to have a fairly solid foundational understanding of socioeconomic's and even politics before you can really make proper judgment and develop and clear understanding on this Bitcoin thing.

First it's not "FIAT" it's "fiat". Second you know squat about money. Money is not debt based, increase of M0 monetary supply is debt based, and debt is predicted future tax revenue which consequently brings you to value created over certain period. What you lack is understanding that money can act as commodity, and that is where each and every crypto-currency such as bitcoin will fail. Latest bitcoin bubble and burst of it should be proof enough for anyone that it is just a commodity as any other, and because of limited supply more vulnerable to speculations than fiat currencies. Step in right direction? Hell no, it's step in wrong direction.

 

[Onus]

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Somebody always has to be the loser in order for someone else to win.

Ah, divergence! It isn't a zero-sum game though. Nobody has to lose. Someone who doesn't have [as much of] something he wants can either make it himself, or make something else of value to trade with someone else who makes what he wants.
What breaks this nice and simple model is parasites and their thugs (and common criminals) who are able to arbitrarily confiscate the fruits of another man's labors without providing anything of equal value, sometimes by trickery, sometimes simply by force. That's a lot harder to do with bitcoins, at least until the parasites justify torturing people's BTC wallet passwords out of them.

 

[Darkman69]

I wouldn't invest "real" money in it,

If by real you mean the monopoly money that the government can print off at will and has a lock on by the use of force LOL. FIAT currency only has power over people because of the apathy of the people.

There's a reason I put "real" in quotes. Perhaps "legal tender" would have been a more accurate term.

I understood you completely but I just did not want some other less informed persons that might happen by this thread to think that the real money that is monopoly fiat money controlled by the evil subjugators to think that is was legit.

More and more countries are beginning to transact their business in other than U.S. Dollars.

Amen for that. I say screw the Petrol Dollar and let us the people maximize freedom from subjugation.

All it will take is the Chinese to back their currency with gold, and the Almight Dollar will be flicked off its perch as the world's reserve currency.

Guess what the Chinese want instead of Petrol Dollars they want "GOLD" from the Americans not worthless fiat.

As a U.S. citizen, I know this will mean hard times.

We might have to actually start to rebuilding relationships away from keyboard and chair in the years to come LOL. I don't think the collapse will be that hard if you are mentally prepared for it.

As an Objectivist, it makes perfect sense for that to happen. I suspect that only the Chinese' need for a market to sell their junk has prevented it from happening so far.

My same thought on the topic. It's the American's, Canadian's, Aussies and Europeans greedy ways to a life of convenience that supports China. It's a global economy not just American.

We're locked in a codependency, and I don't see it ending well.

We are all ultimately bound by the laws of nature and this supersedes money, politics, governments, opinions etc.

I see crypto-currency, with finite amounts available, as not too different from gold; in the sense that a mathematically-defined discovery process gradually makes more available, much as the mining of gold (or silver, or copper, etc) would do. A key advantage is that it prevents so-called "monetary policy," controlled by parasites, from creating more of it out of thin air.

True. I like Digital currency because it is far more efficient and does not disrupt finite planetary resources and enable a slave trade.

 

[g-unit1111]

Do you have a problem with gold as money? There is a set finite amount of that. But no one I know has an issue with using gold as a money standard. The problem with paper money like we use now is that it's not backed by anything other then the guns, I mean power that the government has that prints it. Do you know what run away inflation means? Having a finite something backing the money is a good thing.

That's a totally different discussion altogether. But what I find sketchy is the way Bitcoin mining is setup. You have a set amount. The initial investment is made. And the investor puts a set amount of his own coins out there for the taking. Then the people who are the investees give the investor more coins in the hopes that they themselves will earn more in return. I mean isn't that essentially the way a Ponzi scheme is setup?

 

[Darkman69]

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Somebody always has to be the loser in order for someone else to win.

Ah, divergence! It isn't a zero-sum game though. Nobody has to lose. Someone who doesn't have [as much of] something he wants can either make it himself, or make something else of value to trade with someone else who makes what he wants.
What breaks this nice and simple model is parasites and their thugs (and common criminals) who are able to arbitrarily confiscate the fruits of another man's labors without providing anything of equal value, sometimes by trickery, sometimes simply by force. That's a lot harder to do with bitcoins, at least until the parasites justify torturing people's BTC wallet passwords out of them.

True. When laws and money can be printed off at the will of our puppet masters we have no choice but to bend to the will of the people that control the most guns. The problem is that the people with all the guns are also the people that make all the laws.

 

[slomo4sho]

Bitcoin is not FIAT at all. The Government has absolutely nothing to do with Bitcoin. Bitcoin is a true "Free-Market"

And what does this have to do with the fact that Bitcoin has no intrinsic value?

 

[Darkman69]

Bitcoin is not FIAT at all. The Government has absolutely nothing to do with Bitcoin. Bitcoin is a true "Free-Market"

And what does this have to do with the fact that Bitcoin has no intrinsic value?

You are changing the topic. You said Bitcoin is FIAT and I proved to you that it is not. Besides currency is not supposed to have "intrinsic value" it is only a means of exchange of value.

 

[Onus]

In answer to g-unit1111:
That's not how it works; no one gives the initial investor anything. He is using mathematics to discover new coins (no one has these coins; the limit is in the mathematics that define them), in a figuratively similar way to a miner digging for gold.
There are some key differences. When a real miner starts digging, he doesn't know what he will find, or how much, or how deep he'll need to dig (an in-depth knowledge of geology can be extremely helpful). A Bitcoin "miner" knows how many coins there are, the rate of discovery, and how much of that rate is accounted for by his own capacity. He needs to keep on top of that capacity, rate of discovery, and his own portion of that in order to know how profitable he will be.

 

[g-unit1111]

In answer to g-unit1111:
That's not how it works; no one gives the initial investor anything. He is using mathematics to discover new coins (no one has these coins; the limit is in the mathematics that define them), in a figuratively similar way to a miner digging for gold.
There are some key differences. When a real miner starts digging, he doesn't know what he will find, or how much, or how deep he'll need to dig (an in-depth knowledge of geology can be extremely helpful). A Bitcoin "miner" knows how many coins there are, the rate of discovery, and how much of that rate is accounted for by his own capacity. He needs to keep on top of that capacity, rate of discovery, and his own portion of that in order to know how profitable he will be.

So I'm still confused then I guess. Does that mean that if there's a finite amount, but new ones are created through discovery of the math behind the coin, then how can there be a finite amount?

 

[slomo4sho]

You are changing the topic. You said Bitcoin is FIAT and I proved to you that it is not.

You do realize that you can have a FIAT currency that isn't government backed right?

Besides currency is not supposed to have "intrinsic value" it is only a means of exchange of value.

/sigh
Your ignorance truly has no limits.

 

[Onus]

In answer to g-unit1111:
That's not how it works; no one gives the initial investor anything. He is using mathematics to discover new coins (no one has these coins; the limit is in the mathematics that define them), in a figuratively similar way to a miner digging for gold.
There are some key differences. When a real miner starts digging, he doesn't know what he will find, or how much, or how deep he'll need to dig (an in-depth knowledge of geology can be extremely helpful). A Bitcoin "miner" knows how many coins there are, the rate of discovery, and how much of that rate is accounted for by his own capacity. He needs to keep on top of that capacity, rate of discovery, and his own portion of that in order to know how profitable he will be.

So I'm still confused then I guess. Does that mean that if there's a finite amount, but new ones are created through discovery of the math behind the coin, then how can there be a finite amount?

There's a finite amount, but they haven't been "discovered" yet. When the cryptgraphic hashing finds a [near] solution to a block of coins, those coins have been "discovered" (not "created"; the original math did that) by the miner. He / she can then hold onto them, or place them into circulation by buying something or selling them on an exchange.

 

[g-unit1111]

[
There's a finite amount, but they haven't been "discovered" yet. When the cryptgraphic hashing finds a [near] solution to a block of coins, those coins have been "discovered" (not "created"; the original math did that) by the miner. He / she can then hold onto them, or place them into circulation by buying something or selling them on an exchange.

OK that makes a lot more sense than it did an hour ago. :lol:

I should definitely go read up more on Bitcoins then.

 

[Darkman69]

You are changing the topic. You said Bitcoin is FIAT and I proved to you that it is not.

You do realize that you can have a FIAT currency that isn't government backed right?

Besides currency is not supposed to have "intrinsic value" it is only a means of exchange of value.

/sigh
Your ignorance truly has no limits.

FIAT Currency means Government backed. Define FIAT Currency - Fiat money is money that derives its value from government regulation or law. The term fiat currency is used when the fiat money is used as the main currency of the country. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_money

The pursuit of money as a commodity is what has ruined the American economy.

 

[smeezekitty]

What about when it derives its value from regulation by the bitcoin system? Not much different.

 

[Darkman69]

What about when it derives its value from regulation by the bitcoin system? Not much different.

NO NO NO read the defined meaning of FIAT Currency/money. Bitcoin is absolutely not a fiat currency as it has absolutely nothing to do with the government.