AMD CPU speculation... and expert conjecture

[BeastLeeX]

@gamerk316:

Why do I get the feeling that Linux benchmarks will, once again, be dramatically faster for AMD architecture when all the dust settles?

Oh, that's right...the Linux kernel is light years ahead of Windows kernel...

But... AMD Never Settles

FM2+ news: http://wccftech.com/amd-fm2-socket-supports-entire-apu-lineup-uptill-2015-adopt-ddr4-memory-carrizo-apu/

 

[GOM3RPLY3R]

Lol, we're communist? I'll give you a better analogy. You, Hafijur and various others are the Westboro of this site: Judging users and telling them what they're doing wrong because they chose or are choosing to buy AMD instead of Intel, feeding these users lies like, their game play and CPU performance is damned!

I mostly said that because Yuka and another user (forgot whom), got into a half page discussion about a UK War (not that I have anything against the UK, I went there a few months ago, it was amazing). But, I posted a small joke about someone telling me to get the lower CPU when I need/want the higher end one to better suit my needs.

That's what I meant by communist, however I took it back considering that useless rants get you nowhere, unless someone finds light in them.

 

[The Q6660 Inside]

@gamerk316:

Why do I get the feeling that Linux benchmarks will, once again, be dramatically faster for AMD architecture when all the dust settles?

Oh, that's right...the Linux kernel is light years ahead of Windows kernel...

But... AMD Never Settles

FM2+ news: http://wccftech.com/amd-fm2-socket-supports-entire-apu-lineup-uptill-2015-adopt-ddr4-memory-carrizo-apu/

YEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS! PGA LIVES ON! :3 I am really considering how DDR4 can benefit the APU.

 

[Cazalan]

YEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS! PGA LIVES ON! :3 I am really considering how DDR4 can benefit the APU.

Lower voltages, higher capacities, more bandwidth(eventually).

DDR3 at the higher end sacrifices voltage (1.65V) for higher bandwith, which is fine for desktops. Not much benefit with DDR4 for a desktop APU. Higher end DDR3 will basically overlap the initial DDR4 memory coming out (bandwidth wise).

DDR4 goes to lower voltages (1.2V/1.05V) vs (1.5V/1.35V DDR3, Normal/LowPower) for power and heat savings. That will help servers the most as they run more sticks. Laptops will get slightly longer battery life or free some TDP for higher CPU turbos.

Every extra watt helps

 

[Cazalan]

But... AMD Never Settles

FM2+ news: http://wccftech.com/amd-fm2-socket-supports-entire-apu-lineup-uptill-2015-adopt-ddr4-memory-carrizo-apu/

Good to know FM2+ has some longevity.

 

[griptwister]

I really hope AMD releases a Hexi-core APU, I'd be on that like Butter on Biscuits. Especially since there'll be DDR4 support and this said statement.

Kaveri APU Equips 28nm Steamroller Core
The biggest architectural change Kaveri APU features is the use of the latest 28nm Steamroller architecture that is a true multi-threaded architecture focusing on enhancing the IPC (Instruction-Per-Cycle) by upto 25%. In each module, two separate threads are provided with their own parallel instruction decoder, due to enhancements, the steamroller die would be larger than Bulldozer and Piledriver with each module housing two steamroller cores with a shared L2 cache. You can see the block diagram for the differences between the Bulldozer and Steamroller architecture below:


Read more: http://wccftech.com/amd-kaveri-apu-architecture-detailed-generation-apu-featuring-steamroller-gcn-cores/#ixzz2aSDIl6pU

 

[The Q6660 Inside]

I really hope AMD releases a Hexi-core APU, I'd be on that like Butter on Biscuits. Especially since there'll be DDR4 support and this said statement.

Kaveri APU Equips 28nm Steamroller Core
The biggest architectural change Kaveri APU features is the use of the latest 28nm Steamroller architecture that is a true multi-threaded architecture focusing on enhancing the IPC (Instruction-Per-Cycle) by upto 25%. In each module, two separate threads are provided with their own parallel instruction decoder, due to enhancements, the steamroller die would be larger than Bulldozer and Piledriver with each module housing two steamroller cores with a shared L2 cache. You can see the block diagram for the differences between the Bulldozer and Steamroller architecture below:


Read more: http://wccftech.com/amd-kaveri-apu-architecture-detailed-generation-apu-featuring-steamroller-gcn-cores/#ixzz2aSDIl6pU

It honestly depends on if it can fit. You can only cram so much into the die.

 

[gamerk316]

@gamerk316:

Why do I get the feeling that Linux benchmarks will, once again, be dramatically faster for AMD architecture when all the dust settles?

Oh, that's right...the Linux kernel is light years ahead of Windows kernel...

More like "has a lot less stuff going on, resulting in higher performance". The Linux kernel is a mess.

And yes, I've looked at it plenty over the years. Its a mess, like all giant monolithic projects. BSD isn't much better. Can't comment on MSFT (closed source) aside from re-implementations (ReactOS, WINE).

 

[8350rocks]

The thread scheduling seems so much more efficient in Linux though...I will give you the overhead is a bit less too. Though that is primarily the fault of M$ putting all that bloated BS into their OS with all the garbage you have to uninstall the second you're done putting windows on the HDD. It's gotten a bit convoluted there...I can recall thinking the 5 different internet company promos on win95 was ridiculous...it's far worse than that now.

I don't know...but I have a feeling that M$ is losing their touch (In my mind they lost most of their touch when Ballmer officially took over, and Gates left day to day operations behind though). They need to stop the Intel-esque crap thinking they have a captive audience and innovate. When was the last time you saw something truly innovative from M$ that wasn't a rip off of someone else's good idea?

 

[noob2222]

Kaveri boards are showing up.

http://www.tomshardware.com/news/A88XM-A-A55BM-A-USB3-FM2-AMD,23683.html

for certain kaveri has a pci-e 3.0 controller.

 

[sarinaide]

Well I have finally made the jump to a A10 6800K but am really looking forward to Kaveri's release.

As to the FM2+ boards, must say I am not keen on ASUS's choice of colour scheme, nor do I like the absence of passive VRM cooling of some sort, to much skimp on these boards, now digital diagnostic tool ewwww very plain jane for my liking.

 

[The Q6660 Inside]

Well I have finally made the jump to a A10 6800K but am really looking forward to Kaveri's release.

As to the FM2+ boards, must say I am not keen on ASUS's choice of colour scheme, nor do I like the absence of passive VRM cooling of some sort, to much skimp on these boards, now digital diagnostic tool ewwww very plain jane for my liking.

They ditched the P55-Z77\990FX color scheme on AMD too.

 

[8350rocks]

Well I have finally made the jump to a A10 6800K but am really looking forward to Kaveri's release.

As to the FM2+ boards, must say I am not keen on ASUS's choice of colour scheme, nor do I like the absence of passive VRM cooling of some sort, to much skimp on these boards, now digital diagnostic tool ewwww very plain jane for my liking.

Wondering what kind of overclock you get on that 6800K...?

Also, as these are the first batch of boards, I am sure some more feature rich models will come along. Plus, gigabyte hasn't released their boards yet. They had the best FM2 boards it seems.

 

[noob2222]

Im guessing these 2 are just base models, posted for "first fm2+" bragging rights.

http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/A85XMA/

identical to the a88xm-a FM2+ so their high end should be this clone:

http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/F2A85V_PRO/

 

[The Q6660 Inside]

Well I have finally made the jump to a A10 6800K but am really looking forward to Kaveri's release.

As to the FM2+ boards, must say I am not keen on ASUS's choice of colour scheme, nor do I like the absence of passive VRM cooling of some sort, to much skimp on these boards, now digital diagnostic tool ewwww very plain jane for my liking.

Wondering what kind of overclock you get on that 6800K...?

Also, as these are the first batch of boards, I am sure some more feature rich models will come along. Plus, gigabyte hasn't released their boards yet. They had the best FM2 boards it seems.

Can we bribe him to use LN2 :3 ?http://cdn4.wccftech.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/A88XM-Pro.jpg They seemed to have planned to keep the Blue and Black color scheme, but they just had to change it to a fail Sabertooth, or it is inconsistent

 

[juanrga]

No answer to my 28nm bulk question about kaveri?

 

[noob2222]

bulk is hotter (intel 90+c vs and 60+c) and is supposed to draw more power. Lots of SOI information can be found here:

http://www.soiconsortium.org/

I think the bigger problem is the unkown quality of GF. FX is a monolithic design compared to kaveri. If their 28nm isn't up to producing a good quantity of high end kaveri chips, fx is out of the question.

 

[gamerk316]

But... AMD Never Settles

FM2+ news: http://wccftech.com/amd-fm2-socket-supports-entire-apu-lineup-uptill-2015-adopt-ddr4-memory-carrizo-apu/

Good to know FM2+ has some longevity.

The thread scheduling seems so much more efficient in Linux though...I will give you the overhead is a bit less too. Though that is primarily the fault of M$ putting all that bloated BS into their OS with all the garbage you have to uninstall the second you're done putting windows on the HDD. It's gotten a bit convoluted there...I can recall thinking the 5 different internet company promos on win95 was ridiculous...it's far worse than that now.

I don't know...but I have a feeling that M$ is losing their touch (In my mind they lost most of their touch when Ballmer officially took over, and Gates left day to day operations behind though). They need to stop the Intel-esque crap thinking they have a captive audience and innovate. When was the last time you saw something truly innovative from M$ that wasn't a rip off of someone else's good idea?

Which scheduler?

The MSFT one isn't too bad, all things considered. Much better then it was under XP. Problem is more with the amount of system services that eat up cycles and force context switches. (Work PC currently has 1080 threads running.)

I'd imagine Linux would have much lower latency on average by default. The default scheduler is designed around lowest average latency ("Fair Scheduling"), but as a result, as the number of applications/threads increases, the absolute performance of "heavy workload" programs will decrease. By contrast, on Windows, heavy workload programs/threads get preference when scheduling, so their performance will not be greatly affected as the number of threads increases. Essentially, Windows starts with lower absolute performance, but it won't degrade as thread count rises, unlike Linux. Its a design trade off.

EDIT

At a really simple level, the way the default Linux scheduler (CFS) works is simple in concept: The thread that is "Ready to Run" that has run for the LEAST amount of time gets run. This ensures very low system latency [as no thread will get starved], but lowers overall throughput [the most run threads get run the least].

Contrast that to Windows: The thread that is "Ready to Run" that has the highest priority is ALWAYS run. Priority can be affected outside the application in several ways (Foreground processes get priority boosts, priorities rise as threads wait and declines as threads run, etc). Due to this, heavy-workload threads running in a foreground app tend to be run more then other threads in the system, increasing bandwidth, but lowering overall system latency.

For a HTPC? Linux's scheduler is better designed for you. For gaming? Windows is the best. Different needs for different folks. Each kernel is "better" in its own way.

 

[sarinaide]

I don't have anymore pots so no LN2, but I can run 4.8ghz on around 1.415v which is what I need to run a 4.1ghz 5800K, kind of bottoms out at 5-5.2ghz, seems to be the most the APU will allow stable but the voltages are not prolonged voltages more what we call benching settings.

 

[-Fran-]

No answer to my 28nm bulk question about kaveri?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silicon_on_insulator

Reported benefits of SOI technology relative to conventional silicon (bulk CMOS) processing include:
- Lower parasitic capacitance due to isolation from the bulk silicon, which improves power consumption at matched performance.
- Resistance to latchup due to complete isolation of the n- and p-well structures.

Sorry that I can't give an answer of my own, but we're all learning I guess

Cheers!

 

[8350rocks]

SOI vs. Bulk...I can weigh in there.

SOI is a higher quality substrate, it dissipates heat more effectively, it also provides an environment that allows for less leakage and more efficiency.

So, basically, if you make a chip on PD-SOI or FD-SOI (FD better than PD) then an exact same engineered chip on bulk will consume more power, and generate more heat for the same performance.

Now, another issue with bulk is: in order to get a complicated process (like say...a FinFET) to work effectively on bulk substrate, you have add a few extra mask layers into the construction of the chip in the silicon. This is basically an attempt to "simulate" a SOI process while still using bulk substrate. Intel uses this method to save money on substrate costs, but it costs them more to tool for a new line of CPUs because of the added complexity.

However, if you go from bulk to SOI, while the substrate is more expensive, the transition is more straight forward as many of your processes used in producing chips on bulk substrate remain entirely intact. The primary difference you would see is actually a less complicated production process because of the fact that you no longer necessarily need the added mask layers like you had to add when using bulk substrate.

Kaveri on FD or PD-SOI will be more energy efficient and dissipate heat better than it will on bulk. There's a reason AMD went to SOI all those years ago...it technically gave them a process advantage over Intel (which they still have today, though Intel has managed a sort of "work around" using added production complexity on the same bulk substrate).

 

[Cazalan]

No answer to my 28nm bulk question about kaveri?

Someone asked that during the earnings call, and AMD dodged the question. They said they don't talk about who fabs what and which process. We won't know until someone cuts one up. I hope it isn't bulk as that will certainly lower the clock speeds.

All they would say is they do still have a purchase requirement from GF. Last year they paid a charge to reduce the $$ per quarter.

 

[esrever]

No answer to my 28nm bulk question about kaveri?

28nm bulk won't help with clock and will likely not consume less power, they will only be getting a transistor size reduction going from 32nm SOI to 28nm bulk. They will have to use other techniques to reduce power consumption. I actually expect CPU clocks to be lower than piledriver.

 

[os2wiz]

Spoiler

Congratulations, you've lost the game. You showed that you are worse troll than hafijur.

8350rocks is not a troll.

hafijur is here for trolling, and you have been helping him with your anti-AMD rants. Up to now your tactic to fuel the troll was very astute and almost inappreciable. Now that you moved to insulting several posters here, everything is easier.

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/ou/is-amd-being-hypocritical-about-benchmark-ethics/438
http://www.zdnet.com/blog/ou/strike-3-for-amd-hypocrisy-on-benchmarking/463

AMD go even further they use benchmarks they get spanked on mainly but 1 out of a few they win they post to show they are better lol. Another thing is they use there apu or cpu performance and compare it to an intel cpu+igpu to make it sound like they are so superior at gaming lol instead of cpu tasks as they compare the processors, its quite funny them showing cpus so low end and trying to make it sound like amd are so much better. Haswell now stops amd from showing these benchmarks like they used to all the time and now intel focused on igpu amd fanboys call it hasfail as amds worst nightmares came true with haswell. Its common nature for both companies to show there cpus in the best frame but amd mainly nowadays just boast about there graphics performance in there apus lol and forget the apu cpu especially in laptops get beaten by core 2 duos as an all round chip from 7 years ago.

The irony is amds higher end graphics cards only work properly at full performance with an intel cpu so without intel there 8970m with an a10-5750m would get less then half the performance in games. The i7 4700mq one of intel entry level i7 mobile hasfail cpus you like to say beats out the fx8350 on multithreaded tasks.

http://www.notebookcheck.net/AMD-Radeon-HD-8970M.90656.0.html
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Intel-Core-i7-4700MQ-Notebook-Processor.92959.0.html

TROLLING ALGORITHM:

while ( 3 > 1 )
{
  post nonsense;
  ignore corrections;
}

+1 I could agree that hes not a troll. The only bad thing is that he exaggerates sometimes, but that's it.

Not so sure...

Hafijur abhorrent intellectual dishonesty, persistence, and tolerance to some abuse... makes him of the *professional* quality...

He may had been assigned to this forum... and they should have been paying him well... if don't (most of cases) just makes hafijur *another one* of the most imbecile examples of human kind lol... not a troll, goes beyond and above lol...

I think he is referring to 8350rocks. It took our magic to remove Hajifur of his inner troll.

Yes, I am. I shorten his name so the 8350 does not rock. (^_^) Also, I posted my rig on the threads, and someone is trying to convince me to get a 4770k over a 3930k.

へ　　　へ
の　　　の
　　も
　　へ

I am still wondering why there are so many Fanboys and Intel Trolls in this thread, they just can´t keep their hands off AMD, because they have some love-hate relationship with AMD i guess.

It is cool that this guy is buying an Intel 3930k, but seriously the rest in here don´t care... but i seen this guy trying so hard to make it clear how superior and cheap that CPU is compared to any AMD CPU.

I do not visit Intel threads at any given time in other tech and forum sites, simply because i do not care... even less i would go to such threads and tell the Intel dudes i am buying "X" AMD CPU, they would give a crap and will probably rage that how dare me AMD fanboy to set foot in ther lands. Clearly this dude is either trolling or getting payed to keep his constant "buying the 3930k" because is so cheap and superior, geesh with this people.

Or maybe GOM3RPLY3R was expecting everyone in this Thread to applaud him like Seals while he tell us how superior the 3930k to the FX8350 while he gave his absolute support to Hafijur in pretty much everything he said prior to his tone down against AMD.

I admit GOM3R has to stop showing off his 3930K that he does not even own yet. He is not giving full support to Hafijur, telling people that they should stop going back and fourth with trolling. However, this is an AMD thread, not a hijack this with Intel thread.

I appreciate the concern for what I am saying, and I could agree that I am going a little overboard on talking about that. However, considering how slow this thread is moving between every little spout of information that is given out about Steamroller, I thought it would be nice to bring up a couple of things to keep the thread moving along. Obviously I chose the wrong department, however I thought it was funny how someone told me to get a 4770k rather than the 3930k, so I brought it up just to bring a side topic to keep the thread rolling along.

I would like to state in fact that I did support hafijur for some of what he said. Most of it was random spouting of random and false information, to try and boost up Intel's level of "appreciation". I like Intel more than AMD obviously, however, I would not go to such heights to do such a thing. I do know much more about Intel than AMD, but I like to participate in AMD threads to learn more, and spread any legitimate information that I have or find.

I apologize for what I have done. I can really tell I guess from this forum that many people here are (excuse my french) "communist little fucks" as some might say. I would gladly leave this forum and website, and dispose of any good that I can do to help this community bring up it's standards, as from what I hear most people say, is that this website "suck balls" and "no one knows what they are talking about". I'd love to be one of those people to help turn people into thinking the right way about this site, but if it's that way, then whatever.

Well I am a communist , not a little fuck, and I would greatly appreciate you getting your racist , imperialist ass out of here. A real jerk.

 

[juanrga]

@noob2222 @Yuka @8350rocks @Cazalan @esrever. Thanks. I think that the answer to my original question is affirmative and Kaveri will OC poor than Richland (assuming kaveri goes bulk)

http://www.brightsideofnews.com/news/2012/3/6/amd-ditches-soi-kaveri-goes-bulk-at-gf2c-more-details-from-the-new-wsa.aspx