AMD CPU speculation... and expert conjecture

[jdwii]

if the owner is satisfied with his pc's performance, there's no need to push it for the time being.

no your very true im running 4.3 at the min on overclock and the bored what iv got i can press a button and it will over clock it more but does everything for you but makes sure its safe thats the good thing with these new boreds from msi if that is what you mean...very new to all this would more ram help in any way at all.. cheers

Overall its pretty solid and should last plus i think FM2+ might be further compatible with newer CPU's

Space doesn't matter to a consumer. The chip is the same size no matter what you buy.
True but the point of a APU is its graphics so its kinda of important if the igpu wont be used you would be better off getting a 8320fx(which is around the same price).

right i see now so if i got the 8320fx chip instead it will run alot better being 8 core might just look into that instead of buying ather one of the graphics cards iv got.

Well it depends if you are happy personally i wouldn't be if i could of gotten better for the same price for you starting out you did great next time just come to Tomshardware if you need any advise or guidance on builds many of us here will help PM me even if they don't.

 

[james pinnix]

What I don't get is amd showed a video of a a10-7850k with a r9 290 running thief on 5 monitors just fine not to say there isn't a bottleneck I get that but it didn't show any hints of the game running poorly because of it

I really want to give the fm2+ boards a chance I really want to see amd do something with this line up

Wish I had more info on the amd carrizo cpu
I am doing a build right now and my budget (aka the wife) has it to where I can get a i5 but I have to get a r9 270 or I can go amd and get a r9 280

I really don't want to get a fx because the best I could get is a fx 6300 the 8 core fx is to close to a i5 in price for me to justify getting it

So I have looked at all of the choices for amd I really don't want fx to run my 280 but that's my only option

I would also be stuck with a 970 mobo vs a x88 on the fm2 side If I go intel I will be getting a 87z

Any advice would be awesome seriously

 

[esrever]

The FX will be best in all seriousness. The 6300 should be good enough and the 970 is still a great chipset. 6300 is a pretty decent chunck more powerful than the 7850 and probably just as powerful if not more powerful than Carrizo when it comes out.

 

[Zircoben]

What I don't get is amd showed a video of a a10-7850k with a r9 290 running thief on 5 monitors just fine not to say there isn't a bottleneck I get that but it didn't show any hints of the game running poorly because of it

I really want to give the fm2+ boards a chance I really want to see amd do something with this line up

Wish I had more info on the amd carrizo cpu
I am doing a build right now and my budget (aka the wife) has it to where I can get a i5 but I have to get a r9 270 or I can go amd and get a r9 280

I really don't want to get a fx because the best I could get is a fx 6300 the 8 core fx is to close to a i5 in price for me to justify getting it

So I have looked at all of the choices for amd I really don't want fx to run my 280 but that's my only option

I would also be stuck with a 970 mobo vs a x88 on the fm2 side If I go intel I will be getting a 87z

Any advice would be awesome seriously

Intel motherboards can be very economical. I might get something like this:

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel Core i5-4570 3.2GHz Quad-Core Processor ($193.99 @ NCIX US)
Motherboard: ASRock H81M-HDS Micro ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($49.99 @ Micro Center)
Total: $243.98

You could drop down to the i5-4430 or something and save another $15, but the i5-4570 offers a lot better performance overall.

The R9 280 can also be found for very cheap:

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel Core i5-4570 3.2GHz Quad-Core Processor ($193.99 @ NCIX US)
Motherboard: ASRock H81M-HDS Micro ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($49.99 @ Micro Center)
Video Card: Asus Radeon R9 280 3GB DirectCU II Video Card ($198.50 @ Newegg)
Total: $442.48

All in all, that is an excellent build for the money you are spending. An AMD CPU would get you the same video performance for most games, but the upgradeability, power consumption, and futureproofing of the i5 really makes it the best choice.

 

[jdwii]

]What I don't get is amd showed a video of a a10-7850k with a r9 290 running thief [/b]on 5 monitors just fine not to say there isn't a bottleneck I get that but it didn't show any hints of the game running poorly because of it

I really want to give the fm2+ boards a chance I really want to see amd do something with this line up

Wish I had more info on the amd carrizo cpu
I am doing a build right now and my budget (aka the wife) has it to where I can get a i5 but I have to get a r9 270 or I can go amd and get a r9 280

I really don't want to get a fx because the best I could get is a fx 6300 the 8 core fx is to close to a i5 in price for me to justify getting it

So I have looked at all of the choices for amd I really don't want fx to run my 280 but that's my only option

I would also be stuck with a 970 mobo vs a x88 on the fm2 side If I go intel I will be getting a 87z

Any advice would be awesome seriously

Well for one it was running mantle and for 2 its one game not all games will bottleneck and if it was running on a I5 or FX i have no doubt in my mind scores would of been higher and overall performance higher even if not noticeable it is better equip for the future of gaming and overall application performance equaling to better performance per dollar.

 

[jdwii]

Agreed Zircoben its not 2010 Intel actually has boards that are nice for cheap and their CPU's use less power when OC meaning it needs less requirements on the board such as VRM.

 

[michaelwebb]

IV JUST BUILT MY AMD RIG AND I CAN HONESTLY SAY IT SPOT ON I CAN PLAY ANY GAME ON ULTRA EVERYTHING IS SMOOTH.

Graphics Card
3GB Sapphire Radeon R9 280X TOXIC, 28nm, 6400MHz GDDR5, GPU 1100MHz, Boost 1150MHz, 2048 Streams, DVI/HDMI/mDPort

Processor
AD785KXBJABOX - AMD A10 7850K Black Edition, S FM2+, Kaveri Core, Quad Core, 4.0GHz, AMD Radeon R7, 95W, Retail

Power Supply
850W Corsair RM Series RM Series, Full Modular, 80 PLUS Gold, 1x135mm Fan, ATX v2.4, PSU

Motherboard
A88X-G45 GAMING Assassin?s Creed Liberation HD MSI A88X-G45 GAMING Assassin?s Creed Lib HD, AMD A88X, FM2+, DDR3, SATA III 6Gb/s, RAID, PCIe 3.0, DSub/DVI/HDMI, ATX

Memory/R.A.M
8GB (2x4GB) Corsair DDR3 Vengeance Pro Series Red, PC3-17066 (2133), Non-ECC Unbuffered, CAS 9-11-11-31, XMP, 1.65V

Case
Cooler Master CM Storm Trooper XL-ATX Case with Window, USB 3.0, Black

Hard Drive
1TB WD WD10EFRX RED 24x7, SATA 6Gb/sec, 64MB Cache, IntelliPower, 8ms NAS/Enterprise

Operating System
Microsoft Windows 8.1 64Bit DVD English International OEM -

DVD Writer
LiteOn IHAS124-14 24x DVD±R, 8x DVD±DL, DVD+RW x8/-RW x6, DVD-RAM x12, SATA, Black, OEM

 

[bmacsys]

its really damn slow at stock clocks....it needs oced waaay up there....

Have you ever even used a system with a 4300? I doubt it.......

ARM in server is going to fail due to not being "big" enough to compete, never mind the lack of software. And with phone/tablet adoption flat-lining due to market saturation, ARM is not going to see the same growth we're used to. That ship has sailed. ARM is a bubble, and I'm afraid AMD is jumping on right before it bursts.

You don't have a clue. ARM is in the ascension. ARM is winning right now. Apple already is building a desktop class 64 bit chip. ARM is scaling up very fast.The ship has sailed. It is Intel who missed it. They could have owned mobile.

Oh arm is so great having IPC around a Atom yeah show me a benchmark per core where a Arm processor even comes even with piledriver let alone haswell

ARM is scaling up very quickly. ARM device shipments are growing and growing. PC shipments continue to plunge. Explain that away? People who buy Piledriver and Haswell cpu's like you and I are in the ever shrinking minority. The landscape is changing quickly. ARM cpu's are cheap. Cheap always has won out. A $20 ARM cpu vs a $239 i5. The majority of users are going to go with with the $20 ARM 64 bit cpu.

 

[blackkstar]

ARM is scaling up very quickly. ARM device shipments are growing and growing. PC shipments continue to plunge. Explain that away? People who buy Piledriver and Haswell cpu's like you and I are in the ever shrinking minority. The landscape is changing quickly. ARM cpu's are cheap. Cheap always has won out. A $20 ARM cpu vs a $239 i5. The majority of users are going to go with with the $20 ARM 64 bit cpu.

Sure, I will.

-Nvidia had a very good quarter and a large part of that was due to graphics cards for gaming desktops
-The idea that desktops are dying comes from the fact that OEM pre-built shipments are dropping like a rock
-However it's easier and cheaper than ever to build your own desktop
-ARM performance scaling will not continue forever
-We are going to reach a time where ARM performance is "good enough" and people no longer have a reason to upgrade their ARM devices every year or two, just like x86 did. Sales of ARM will slow down greatly.
-Gaming PC and DIY desktop is growing to record sizes and continues to grow
-We are already at a time when budget ARM companies like MediaTek can provide decent chips

http://www.pcgamesn.com/pc-gaming-doing-fine-3-billion-growth-predicted-year

All you have to do is search for "pc gaming growth" or something like that and you get tons of results about DIY market. Most of which are fairly recent

Search for "pc gaming dying" and you get a ton of articles from 2009 and earlier talking about how gaming PC is doomed and it's all over, only to see it reach new records 4 years later.

But what I am getting at is that the idea that "desktop is dying" and "gaming PCs are dying" is a very out of touch and dated outlook that has been proved wrong already. The whole idea of the market dying came from a bunch of out of touch analysts looking at Dell and HP's desktop shipment numbers and then proclaiming that desktop is dead, and the whole idea of PC gaming being alive comes from sales data from companies like Nvidia that gamerK posted.

The market is not going away. You're also neglecting content creators and the ridiculous amount of tools that exist on Windows and Linux for content creation that are limited to x86. To think that ARM is going to win against desktop would mean that you believe that Android will overtake Windows and it's ridiculous software library.

 

[jdwii]

its really damn slow at stock clocks....it needs oced waaay up there....

Have you ever even used a system with a 4300? I doubt it.......

ARM in server is going to fail due to not being "big" enough to compete, never mind the lack of software. And with phone/tablet adoption flat-lining due to market saturation, ARM is not going to see the same growth we're used to. That ship has sailed. ARM is a bubble, and I'm afraid AMD is jumping on right before it bursts.

You don't have a clue. ARM is in the ascension. ARM is winning right now. Apple already is building a desktop class 64 bit chip. ARM is scaling up very fast.The ship has sailed. It is Intel who missed it. They could have owned mobile.

Oh arm is so great having IPC around a Atom yeah show me a benchmark per core where a Arm processor even comes even with piledriver let alone haswell

ARM is scaling up very quickly. ARM device shipments are growing and growing. PC shipments continue to plunge. Explain that away? People who buy Piledriver and Haswell cpu's like you and I are in the ever shrinking minority. The landscape is changing quickly. ARM cpu's are cheap. Cheap always has won out. A $20 ARM cpu vs a $239 i5. The majority of users are going to go with with the $20 ARM 64 bit cpu.

Well lets stop assuming things in the future and just go with what we seen the last 2 years when it comes to Arm which is horrible performance in general around a Intel Atom actually the Atom wins most the time. Arm has a LOT to catch up on and we will see with the K12 how high performing they are.

 

[jdwii]

Gaming PC's are still climbing its been stated by Newegg and tiger and well everyone in game dev's indie gaming is really huge now more so on PC's. PC's are dying out in general but PC gaming is climbing really people and claim otherwise but yet again facts are not on their side. The truth is most people already have a good enough pc for their little facebook games. Steam has 75 million users i wouldn't call PC gaming a niche market.

Edit off topic 100% just mad! I hate pulling data from the freaking database at this school so darn slow. Horrible database admins. Its also so unsecured its sad i actually am filing a complaint right now.

 

[de5_Roy]

arm's greatest strength is it's biggest weakness - cheapness. whenever an arm soc comes to market, sorta undercutting frenzy starts. it's great for the consumers, not so much for the oems, worse for the custom cpu/soc designers. apple avoids this by staying in the high end, thus is facing eroding marketshare and less sales. samsung tried to cover all price points but they are facing pressure from mediatek, allwinner, xiaomi et al. nvidia spectacularly got it's butt kicked. a qualcomm exec infamously mocked 64bit, indicating they didn't even have any 64bit cores in the works. iirc qualcomm will be using vanilla a57 cores in their new 64bit socs. amusingly, mediatek, allwinner will be doing the same and they will undercut qualcomm and samsung. arm's partners are cannibalizing each other in attempt to deliver the cheapest, affordable, "good enough" device. and there's the catch. arm devices have already reached "good enough" level. some people are using tablets as primary computing device. arm has nowhere to go. now they will start raising license fees. i think they did, with a12/a17 cores, and everyone bailed asap. it won't stop with a12/a17. if arm had the server cpus and socs on 20-14nm nodes already, they would have had a big advantage. i am seeing this from process perspective sine intel touts it's own over arm's foundry partners. imo, any one of the isa doesn't have inherent advantage over the other but i haven't seen any credible data on that. however, x86(intel, really) has massive advantage in "brute force", haswell and sb/ivb-e, haswell-e being prime examples. arm works by being low power asic nature - that's won't work against x86 cpus. don't expect huge things from a53/57. it'll take at least gen. or two, and flawless execution (and lowered licese fees, and may be a second steve jobs) for arm to gain minimum cred. in mainstream high performance computing (chromebooks, tablets, linux laptops). when the server cpus do get production ready, intel will be ready to compete as well (which in turn, will benefit amd).

 

[Cazalan]

Cheap always has won out.

If cheap has always won out, explain Apple's success.

 

[jdwii]

Cheap always has won out.

If cheap has always won out, explain Apple's success.

Or Amd's

 

[-Fran-]

If cheap has always won out, explain Apple's success.

Gimmicks and marketing

Touch was already there when they introduced the first iPhone and they just made it "hip and cool". The iPad was just an extension to the success they amassed with the iPhone. They invested at the right time for all the current iOS ecosystem, but now they're trying to bring that success to the "PC" area.

They, before the explosive success of the iPhone, were another boutique vendor for the regular folk, but nothing really interesting about it. Only people taking a serious look at apple were Musicians and Artists I'd say.

The only real product I respect from Apple (and own), is the iPod. It can handle most high quality headphones and it's reasonable in price... Although I friggin' hate iTunes.

Now, to support a little more "cheap has always won out", you can take a look at the car landscape. When people just need something to move from A to B and back, they choose the cheapest tin can that can do the job. I suppose there is a balance of "too cheap" and "too well done" (implying expensive), but I support bmacsys' statement.

Cheers!

 

[Zircoben]

"-ARM performance scaling will not continue forever
-We are going to reach a time where ARM performance is "good enough" and people no longer have a reason to upgrade their ARM devices every year or two, just like x86 did. Sales of ARM will slow down greatly."

That's already happening. Think about the iPhone 4. It's from 2010, and yet it runs Apple's latest OS, and still runs most apps. Phones are good enough for at least 3 years, if you get a flagship, and if you don't play the latest games.

 

[Cazalan]

Well lets stop assuming things in the future and just go with what we seen the last 2 years when it comes to Arm which is horrible performance in general around a Intel Atom actually the Atom wins most the time. Arm has a LOT to catch up on and we will see with the K12 how high performing they are.

The future is always more promising because it doesn't have to deal with reality.

Heck these guys are saying we can have exaflop optical computers on our desktops by 2020.
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/187746-by-2020-you-could-have-an-exascale-speed-of-light-optical-computer-on-your-desk

 

[jdwii]

"-ARM performance scaling will not continue forever
-We are going to reach a time where ARM performance is "good enough" and people no longer have a reason to upgrade their ARM devices every year or two, just like x86 did. Sales of ARM will slow down greatly."

That's already happening. Think about the iPhone 4. It's from 2010, and yet it runs Apple's latest OS, and still runs most apps. Phones are good enough for at least 3 years, if you get a flagship, and if you don't play the latest games.

Its more about i have to have the newest thing type of mindset i'm sure most people would be fine with a galaxy S2.

 

[jdwii]

Well lets stop assuming things in the future and just go with what we seen the last 2 years when it comes to Arm which is horrible performance in general around a Intel Atom actually the Atom wins most the time. Arm has a LOT to catch up on and we will see with the K12 how high performing they are.

The future is always more promising because it doesn't have to deal with reality.

Heck these guys are saying we can have exaflop optical computers on our desktops by 2020.
http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/187746-by-2020-you-could-have-an-exascale-speed-of-light-optical-computer-on-your-desk

Sorry not to sound mean i should ignore but hey.....even if something changes it will be over reality
But i see where your thinking with this. I doubt its going to be with Arm myself over are current observation with it before marketing and claims are made.

 

[con635]

Cheap always has won out.

If cheap has always won out, explain Apple's success.

I was a big Commodore fan back in the day, Apple done the same thing back then stayed out of the price 'war'
I miss Commodore

 

[de5_Roy]

AMD A10-7800 & A6-7400K APUs Run Great On Linux
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd_apus_august&num=1
AMD A10-7850K vs. Intel/AMD CPU/APU Comparison
http://www.phoronix.com/scan.php?page=article&item=amd_kaveri_7850k&num=1

4 Generations Of The AMD APU: How Much Progress Has Been Made?
http://www.eteknix.com/4-generations-of-the-amd-apu-how-much-progress-has-been-made/

AMD Radeon R9 285 with Tonga GPU pictured
http://videocardz.com/51157/amd-radeon-r9-285-tonga-gpu-pictured

 

[palladin9479]

since amd uses snooping based cache coherency protocol, is it also partly responsible for up to 8 cores per cpu and 16 cores per socket(mcm cpus) practical/economical limit? i thought that adding more cores would complicate cache coherency. i've suspected that it may also be the reason amd's console socs, octocore arm cpus won't go higher than 8 cores per cpu. tbh i haven't come across in-depth details on how arm cpus work.

No because each socket only has one memory controller.

Cache coherency only becomes an issue when your dealing with a NUMA setup and thus memory read / writes could be handled by a foreign memory controller. Doing CMT (multiple cores per chip) doesn't create this situation because all cores can instantly communicate to each other and any memory read / writes will always pass through a single memory controller and thus are easy to track.

To better explain this problem. Assume you have two sockets, each with four cores and 8GB of memory. This creates two 8GB regions of memory with the first 8GB being which ever socket is enumerated 0 and the second higher region belonging to the socket enumerated 1. Now you have a program running on CPU1 inside socket 0, this program is reading and writing to memory. Socket 0's memory controller is doing the read / writes and updating the internal cache as needed, each R/W request is being handled entirely inside Socket 0. Now lets assume the program gets task switched to a CPU inside Socket 1, and its still doing those memory access's, Socket 1's cache might not reflect the changes made at Socket 0 and thus you can get data corruption. So what we have is a method that Socket 0 can let Socket 1 know about every memory write and anytime a program running inside Socket 1 attempts to R/W memory the memory controller would check to see if that region had changed since last access. How we go about doing this is the difference between snoop and directory based, snoop just quickly blasts out to everyone while directory only informs the socket responsible for the that region of memory. Snoop is faster but has a practical limit of four sockets before becoming an engineering nightmare (log scaling), directory can scale up to as many sockets as you want (linear scaling).

 

[palladin9479]

MIPS is back, boys and girls:

http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/imagination-technologies-mips-powervr,3890.html

In the comparison with competing high-end ARM CPUs above (which is again provided by Imagination, so do with the information what you will), we see its MIPS P5600 “Warrior” CPU manage to beat the ARM competition (likely Cortex-A15) in performance/MHz, performance/mW, and also performance/area. Keeping in mind that the other factors were most likely normalized in these comparisons, it’s still impressive that MIPS-based CPUs can be this competitive with ARM in the mobile market already.

And according to some here, this means MIPS > ARM > X86.

Gonna be interesting to see how this all shakes out. MIPS is another one of those super efficient uArch's that can be modified to do many different tasks.

 

[de5_Roy]

thanks for the explanation palladin9479.

 

[Cazalan]

4 Generations Of The AMD APU: How Much Progress Has Been Made?
http://www.eteknix.com/4-generations-of-the-amd-apu-how-much-progress-has-been-made/

It's weird to see Llano still winning some benchmarks, but they had a flaw in their memory selection by the looks of it.

1866MHz was used across the board and we know Richland/Kaveri were upgraded to use faster memory. They need it really.