AMD CPU speculation... and expert conjecture

[earl45]

No more GF costs, console wins start rolling in, the timing is there.
Now, for upward mobility, they need mobility heheh

Correct me if I'm wrong was it not you who said GF was good for AMD because of deep pockets,
and all the extra foundry business, which would put money in AMD's pockets.
Well from what I see you were wrong on both accounts.

 

[griptwister]

@de5_Roy Haha, drivers... that would explain a lot! There is no way a FX 4170 is a better CPU lol.

I feel like I should also state (for gamerk316) that AMD stole 2% of the market from intel... It may not be a whole lot... but it's a start. Also, you notice the FX 6100 CPUs are a different archistructure than the 6300 CPUs so the odds of a 6100 undermining a 6300 are minimal.

Also, how about this GTX 650 Ti Boost? I'm not sold on it. It seems like a GTX 660 with a few disabled CUDA cores, a Over clock and an optional Gb of memory.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

No more GF costs, console wins start rolling in, the timing is there.
Now, for upward mobility, they need mobility heheh

Correct me if I'm wrong was it not you who said GF was good for AMD because of deep pockets,
and all the extra foundry business, which would put money in AMD's pockets.
Well from what I see you were wrong on both accounts.

I said they could be good in ways, such as using their own foundry to make their own gpus.
I also said, more to the point of GF being a player, where I think your mixing things some, is that GFs new owners have deep pockets, and will then be able to keep a better pace than what only AMD could do.
If I rmember at the time, they gave 56 billion for a city bailout for instance, thats deep pockets.

AMD had to do what they had to do, but I believe if they could have stayed with GF they would have, and it would have been better as well, since it would be US owned, and process tech is still dearly held.

But, we now know how things shook out, and some of the whys as well.
Now, if AMD had been in a stronger situation, things could have been different.
I still expect them to do better from here on in, better management, leaner yet very capable, and setting whats already in the works for positioning should see some success, and is why I believe we see the delays.

Also, has this been posted?
http://www.planet3dnow.de/cgi-bin/newspub/viewnews.cgi?id=1364293981

 

[vishalaestro]

@de5_Roy Haha, drivers... that would explain a lot! There is no way a FX 4170 is a better CPU lol.

I feel like I should also state (for gamerk316) that AMD stole 2% of the market from intel... It may not be a whole lot... but it's a start. Also, you notice the FX 6100 CPUs are a different archistructure than the 6300 CPUs so the odds of a 6100 undermining a 6300 are minimal.

Also, how about this GTX 650 Ti Boost? I'm not sold on it. It seems like a GTX 660 with a few disabled CUDA cores, a Over clock and an optional Gb of memory.

see this vidoe and you will know how much gtx650 boost is capable of http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ho0TnSZ2HW8

 

[griptwister]

It's not that great still IMO. I like nvidia's cards and all, but I know they only released the GPU because AMD released their HD 7790. In the next few months, I expect prices to rise on that card. (I spent more time looking at the box of twinkies than looking at linus)

Also, the HD 7850 is supposed to get EOL'd! Stupid DRAM companies... making it more expensive for us to buy a GPU! Or RAM even!

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

The main problem for the 650ti is its power usage, and we havnt seen a 1GB model yet.
I agree with Anand on this one, priced to perf, and no gaming bundles, 7850 clear winner

 

[de5_Roy]

Also, the HD 7850 is supposed to get EOL'd! Stupid DRAM companies... making it more expensive for us to buy a GPU! Or RAM even!

that's because 1gb cards with 256bit bus width are so 2011. besides, it doesn't make sense for a 'higher end' gpu with less vram to sell at a lower price while amd can sell us a cheaper-yet-almost-as-powerful gpu with a severely crippled memory bus at a higher price. it's teh moniez.

 

[griptwister]

Hmmm... AMD rebranding... I bet we'll see GDDR5 for those next Gen APUs.

http://www.eteknix.com/amd-new-logo-shows-different-series-for-memory-kits/

 

[sarinaide]

The HD7790 was created to stop gap what is to be a retired 1GB Pitcairn and also can see the HD7770 being retired by Q3 with the HD8600 family intended for dual graphics support basically out performing the current Cape Verde's by substantial margins. The HD7850OC 2GB cards sell as low as $190 and still a more feasible option than the 2GB 650ti Boost which is basically nvidia trying to sell its unsold silicon intended to be bracketed for the 660 family but after its poor pricing GTX660's/ti's sold pretty poorly, the 650ti Boost will still represent Nvidia making losses on higher end parts pandering them around at low cost brackets, while they can afford to, it is not good business and nvidia are paying the price for bad pricing.

As to performance, I like JDJ am truely awestruck that a more powerful GPU with faster core clocks and DRAM clocks on a higher power profile is still unable to categorically beat a Vanilla low clocked 7850 GB card, while consuming more power and generating substantial heat. I said it before and I will say it again there is something truely FUBAR with that 660 family and the 192Bit interface is not it, and no those results are not driver related either, thats a cop out to peddle the Nvidia fanbronisms. Being a former said Nvidia boy, that company is a farcry from what it used to be, they lost themselves when they decided to peddle the tandum with Intel, now they have just opted a page out of team blues book of product proliferation making it big and fast abandoning the rest that goes hand in hand with consumer based markets.

Nvidia like Intel also have the position that every reviewer will punt and tout their products even at times when they delivered nothing close to what it was suggested to provide...ala HD4600 is not close to Trinity as what Toms suggested, it still gets its ass kicked by the very very old HD6550D on Llano parts, which were on average 33% slower than Trinity's iGPU.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Yea, dumping sillycon works if priced right, but this isnt the case here, unless theres large price reductions in store, being as this could be very high new release pricing.
Good example of this would be the tri cores, or even the quads coming from the hex cores, which many went to OEMs.
Looking at clocks, where it averaged 1.075 in games, shows not much headroom as well, and an open fan cooling solution the only solution, or else it gets hot.
I wander what a 192bit 7790 with 2 gigs would do.......that option was taken off the table tho, and pricing was the main concern, as not itll be very competitive

 

[-Fran-]

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6857/amd-stuttering-issues-driver-roadmap-fraps

Interesting read.

Talks more GPU than CPU, but clears some of the waters regarding metrics being used around FRAPS. Have at it, boys and girls!

Cheers!

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Obviously we need better tools,drivers,OS usage and approaches to ummm "smooth" things out better

 

[palladin9479]

http://www.anandtech.com/show/6857/amd-stuttering-issues-driver-roadmap-fraps

Interesting read.

Talks more GPU than CPU, but clears some of the waters regarding metrics being used around FRAPS. Have at it, boys and girls!

Cheers!

The information was good, as usual their anti-AMD bias seeped through in some places but they did a better then usual job on keeping it in check.

AMD (ATI really) made a very good point, FRAPS is not measuring actual frames but instead calls from the software. Which actually brings up an interesting issue, if FRAPS is measuring it before it even gets to the D3D / Driver level is what we're seeing an artifact of the hardware or of the software engine itself?

 

[jimmysmitty]

Steamroller was to be out this year now 2014. Begs the question of why and if PCIe 3 and DDR4 maybe?

Also JDJ, most average Joes don't need more than a HD5450. A X360/PS3 do their gaming

 

[anxiousinfusion]

When was the last verifiable AMD statement on the progress of the Steamroller?

Well, the last rumours were that AMD is not making Steamroller CPU's.
Some people like me assumed that this means that Steamroller will only be available in an APU.

If Kaveri truely has six cores it would be less than surprising to see them drop the FX line.

 

[sarinaide]

AMD is not dropping the FX line, instead they will just unify the product line under the FX monika.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

Steamroller was to be out this year now 2014. Begs the question of why and if PCIe 3 and DDR4 maybe?

Also JDJ, most average Joes don't need more than a HD5450. A X360/PS3 do their gaming

Problem with that is, those old consoles wont cut it in newer games set for the newer consoles, not enough memory comes to mind first, low level or non existent compute as well.
This just means theyll have to buy AMD product to do their gaming, or, have a APU in their mobile which will come with far better than a 5450 regardless.
Once they get used to it, just like any snappier or higher performing HW, they wont go back.

SR is coming, at least to be on ramp qtr4 this year for sure, if not sooner

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2032177/amd-provides-a-sneak-peek-at-its-radeon-hd-7990.html
As nodes advance more slowly, were beginning to see a slower roll out of product.
Dont look for AMD to jump on new nodes early anymore either

 

[de5_Roy]

Hmmm... AMD rebranding... I bet we'll see GDDR5 for those next Gen APUs.

http://www.eteknix.com/amd-new-logo-shows-different-series-for-memory-kits/

looks like amd is moving to majority radeon branding since fx's return was a spectacular flop and vision got sued iirc. radeon ram makes some sorta sense but radeon ssd? are they gonna build the ssd controller off gcn cores or something?

.... it is not good business and nvidia are paying the price for bad pricing.
.... while consuming more power and generating substantial heat. I said it before and I will say it again there is something truely FUBAR with that 660 family and the 192Bit interface is not it, and no those results are not driver related either, thats a cop out to peddle the Nvidia fanbronisms. Being a former said Nvidia boy, that company is a farcry from what it used to be, they lost themselves when they decided to peddle the tandum with Intel, now they have just opted a page out of team blues book of product proliferation making it big and fast abandoning the rest that goes hand in hand with consumer based markets.

Nvidia like Intel also have the position that every reviewer will punt and tout their products even at times when they delivered nothing close to what it was suggested to provide...ala HD4600 is not close to Trinity as what Toms suggested, it still gets its ass kicked by the very very old HD6550D on Llano parts, which were on average 33% slower than Trinity's iGPU.

it's really amusing to see a former self claimed nvidia fanboy who went on and on about how 'real gamers and enthusiasts don't care about power consumption and efficiency' try to champion the very things he (i mean you) disregarded. XD
where did toms say hd4600 is close to trinity?i must have missed it... it did beat 7660d on luxmark 2.0 bench but that's about it iirc.

 

[sarinaide]

Hmmm... AMD rebranding... I bet we'll see GDDR5 for those next Gen APUs.

http://www.eteknix.com/amd-new-logo-shows-different-series-for-memory-kits/

looks like amd is moving to majority radeon branding since fx's return was a spectacular flop and vision got sued iirc. radeon ram makes some sorta sense but radeon ssd? are they gonna build the ssd controller off gcn cores or something?

.... it is not good business and nvidia are paying the price for bad pricing.
.... while consuming more power and generating substantial heat. I said it before and I will say it again there is something truely FUBAR with that 660 family and the 192Bit interface is not it, and no those results are not driver related either, thats a cop out to peddle the Nvidia fanbronisms. Being a former said Nvidia boy, that company is a farcry from what it used to be, they lost themselves when they decided to peddle the tandum with Intel, now they have just opted a page out of team blues book of product proliferation making it big and fast abandoning the rest that goes hand in hand with consumer based markets.

Nvidia like Intel also have the position that every reviewer will punt and tout their products even at times when they delivered nothing close to what it was suggested to provide...ala HD4600 is not close to Trinity as what Toms suggested, it still gets its ass kicked by the very very old HD6550D on Llano parts, which were on average 33% slower than Trinity's iGPU.

it's really amusing to see a former self claimed nvidia fanboy who went on and on about how 'real gamers and enthusiasts don't care about power consumption and efficiency' try to champion the very things he (i mean you) disregarded. XD
where did toms say hd4600 is close to trinity?i must have missed it... it did beat 7660d on luxmark 2.0 bench but that's about it iirc.

1) I don't regard the sub $200 GPU market as enthusiast market so high power is a big deal in this segment.

2) Luxmark would, it is a measure of IMC's and Intel's IMC is so much better than AMD's, yet despite HD4600 capable of a higher bandwidth on slower RAM, none of it translates into performance. I cannot give the HD4600 BF3 multiplayer results but just was left quite disappointed.

3) Chris used the words closed up to or faster than Richland, this is a completely inaccurate sentiment. If a 4770K cannot match a 3850 at low res and low presets on a Skyrim bench, it has absolutely no chance in a title like F1 2012 which is actually a very good GPU guage.

 

[truegenius]

Steamroller was to be out this year now 2014. Begs the question of why and if PCIe 3 and DDR4 maybe?

to offer pcie3.0, they need faster ht (4ghz) or wider channel (32 link of ht 2.0)
because if i got it right (from diagram of my 880gm board and sandra bench) then data exchange between cpu and gpu flows through ht channel which is currently set at ht2.0 to 3.0 speed with x16/x16 uplink/downlink
here are some number crunching
ht2.0 x16 = 8GB/s bandwidth (unidirectional)
pcie2.0 x16 = 8GB/s bandwidth (unidirectional)
so they need higher speed or wider link

If Kaveri truely has six cores it would be less than surprising to see them drop the FX line.

if steamroller apu is going to have upto 6 cores then cpu linup is almost useless (except for those who need more cores)
so droping of cpu line makes sense

3) Chris used the words closed up to or faster than Richland, this is a completely inaccurate sentiment. If a 4770K cannot match a 3850 at low res and low presets on a Skyrim bench, it has absolutely no chance in a title like F1 2012 which is actually a very good GPU guage.

me too agree
its is as same as saying this "amd is equal to intel in x86"
if they only need to dump in some more shaders to up the performance without affecting tdp by much then why they/intel are not introducing desktop graphics cards

 

[de5_Roy]

1) I don't regard the sub $200 GPU market as enthusiast market so high power is a big deal in this segment.

wow, that's some elitism(!). i bet that sub-$200 gfx card enthusiasts just disagreed with you there. i mean, amd's fx8350/8320, a10-5800k sell under $200 so they too, must not be enthusiast products.... and they suck a lot of power, so the logic lines up!!

2) Luxmark would, it is a measure of IMC's and Intel's IMC is so much better than AMD's, yet despite HD4600 capable of a higher bandwidth on slower RAM, none of it translates into performance. I cannot give the HD4600 BF3 multiplayer results but just was left quite disappointed.

i didn't know that it was a memory benchmark... to me it looked like it was measuring raw shader performance.
playing bf3 mp on intel hd gfx can be described only as an experiment. pretty sure no one with mp-gaming know-how is gonna actually try and keep playing on hd4600.

3) Chris used the words closed up to or faster than Richland, this is a completely inaccurate sentiment. If a 4770K cannot match a 3850 at low res and low presets on a Skyrim bench, it has absolutely no chance in a title like F1 2012 which is actually a very good GPU guage.

i keep reading it here, but never seen it in the review.

okay, i've checked the review and the only place where richland is mentioned... you have taken the reviewer' words Way out of context. imho, we could easily be arguing semantics. the review never says hd4600 being 'faster than richland'. it says that gt2 will always be slower than amd's top desktop igpus but mobile gt3 might be faster than mobile trinity and richland... the actual words were 'blow trinity out of the water in games'.
as for f1.. it's more cpu and memory-bound first, then gpu bound. so... hd4600 may have a very minor, marginal chance with better drivers. hd4600 was almost within 5 fps vs 7660d @1080p in dirt showdown bench. time will tell.
to amd's advantage (and defense), the review doesn't mention stuttering, frame times, smoothness or minimum fps.

if steamroller apu is going to have upto 6 cores then cpu linup is almost useless (except for those who need more cores)
so droping of cpu line makes sense

i am guessing merging of cpu and apu socket... then amd might have to lock out All existing amd users for a new, possibly incompatible, unified socket. i kinda don't see it happening with steamroller. but that's long way in the future.
since intel is (trying) killing desktop with bga broadwell, customers will have nowhere else to go if amd does introduce a new, incompatible lga socket. when broadwell's news came out, amd said that they will keep making lga cpus but never said anything about socket or backward compatibility iirc.

.....
if they only need to dump in some more shaders to up the performance without affecting tdp by much then why they/intel are not introducing desktop graphics cards

because marketing discreet gfx cards keeps the door open for amd and nvidia who have vastly more experience and can compete much more fiercely. intel can't compete in markets where they don't have near monopolistic position. add intel's past failures and you have the answer.

 

[sarinaide]

Steamroller was to be out this year now 2014. Begs the question of why and if PCIe 3 and DDR4 maybe?

to offer pcie3.0, they need faster ht (4ghz) or wider channel (32 link of ht 2.0)
because if i got it right (from diagram of my 880gm board and sandra bench) then data exchange between cpu and gpu flows through ht channel which is currently set at ht2.0 to 3.0 speed with x16/x16 uplink/downlink
here are some number crunching
ht2.0 x16 = 8GB/s bandwidth (unidirectional)
pcie2.0 x16 = 8GB/s bandwidth (unidirectional)
so they need higher speed or wider link

If Kaveri truely has six cores it would be less than surprising to see them drop the FX line.

if steamroller apu is going to have upto 6 cores then cpu linup is almost useless (except for those who need more cores)
so droping of cpu line makes sense

3) Chris used the words closed up to or faster than Richland, this is a completely inaccurate sentiment. If a 4770K cannot match a 3850 at low res and low presets on a Skyrim bench, it has absolutely no chance in a title like F1 2012 which is actually a very good GPU guage.

me too agree
its is as same as saying this "amd is equal to intel in x86"
if they only need to dump in some more shaders to up the performance without affecting tdp by much then why they/intel are not introducing desktop graphics cards

DROPS and FX or APU

AMD will only unify its sockets by excavator and while the CPU only will be replace by hybrid processors, the FX mantra will be kept, I have heard that there is a 2016 architecture with the FX name so, they will unify the A series and FX but retain the FX mantra, which has a steep history in AMD like Athlon.

All things IGPU

I have heard just rumors, the sources are good but they do not give anything more than showing the cookie jar. Kaveri iGPU's wise, the top end iGPU's will feature higher speed integrated GDDR5 and come in quad and hexcore veriants, also on lower voltage parts. The lower end iGPU's will feature low clocked GDDR5. Some stories is that AMD's iGPU with GDDR5 is capable of the unrestrictive bandwidths needed. Talk of the top end part achieving the same bandwidth as the HD7790 just released around 80-90GB\s. AMD is intending its APU's along with the soon to be spec released HD8600 sea islands parts which on rumor the HD8670/90 are both comparible to the HD7790, very similar performance. That will basically offer consumers $200 and under Chip+GPU options with Dual Graphics/Crossfire support.

Kaveri was intended to be mainstream and it looks like it will be very much the case for entry level mainstream considering a Trinity is not that far off.

Intel GT and Fudalicious rumors, well it is clear the Haswell of a year ago is somewhat diminshed to something that is just so disappointing, there are instances where HD4600 is barely tickling 10% gains on HD4000. Crysis 2 and Metro 2033 highlighted the severity of it. While in Metro Chris and Don will be quick to say that the 5800k can only beat Haswell by 5-6 FPS under extreme torture, 5-6FPS in that game is the equivilant of 20-30 in other games. Crysis 2 is very unkind to HD4000 not hitting double figures while the 5800K managed 30 and the Llano parts around 24. Skyrim was the only chance to make HD4600 look awesome and Chris painted it in golden tassels, Skyrim loves a faster CPU, and with the fastest x86 processor and a improved iGPU the 4770K and GT2 came well short of a A8 3850. So a budget builder relying on iGPU gaming will actually get better performance of a Llano not even a Trinity is needed to oust Intel's powerhouse. Then we can get into size, clockspeeds, bandwidth, power and all and all GT is just nothing it was touted to be.

Now I am generally one to say pfft and move on, and I did a year ago, said Llano is not even under threat and well every Intel preferenced site said that GT2 was going to beat Trinity and GT3 was going to end AMD. Well fast forward and its all just very comical. So for toms I think they need to explain at what level HD4600 became a match or bested Trinity unless they were talking about the HD7450D on the A4s, but on pure number HD4600 looks about 15-35% slower depending on the title.

I really don't care whether they like or don't like AMD but the problem here is when Haswell was talk up to be the champion and well I am not saying that Haswell doesn't represent something that is impressive, Intel node stacking is just off this planet but performance wise people are getting stiffed and Toms went out of their way to herald this. The effect is that intel stocks rose the day it was leaked and AMD stocks went down. Fud reporting of complete inaccuracy has that effect on the market. I just really long for the days where people didn't have to punt up the justifications for intel systems to feel better. I agree in some instances I will only use an intel because I need the performance, but for a day to day gamer and psuedo overclocker and person who has a system for that usage AMD is just fine.

I have my A10 5800K tests and benches. I solely used FRAPs and BF3 multiplayer but for a APU to achieve 70FPS average at 768 on low presets is just impressive at 1050 you can achieve around 35-45FPS while 1080 is 25-30FPS, this on DDR3 1600. In dual graphics mode you can get more than double the FPS. I have 1080 medium blend settings enabled and get around 45 FPS average which for $160 is unbeatable by anything current or past from AMD or Intel at that budget for chip+Discrete

 

[truegenius]

I have heard just rumors, the sources are good but they do not give anything more than showing the cookie jar. Kaveri iGPU's wise, the top end iGPU's will feature higher speed integrated GDDR5 and come in quad and hexcore veriants, also on lower voltage parts. The lower end iGPU's will feature low clocked GDDR5. Some stories is that AMD's iGPU with GDDR5 is capable of the unrestrictive bandwidths needed. Talk of the top end part achieving the same bandwidth as the HD7790 just released around 80-90GB\s. AMD is intending its APU's along with the soon to be spec released HD8600 sea islands parts which on rumor the HD8670/90 are both comparible to the HD7790, very similar performance. That will basically offer consumers $200 and under Chip +GPU options with Dual Graphics/Crossfire support.

ddr5 !
source ? i need recipie of their cookies or atleast all the cookies of their jar we can share them (50% for you and 50% for me and rest for others )

arey they (amd) going to skip ddr4 or they are going for something like side port memory on motherboard or seperate slot for ddr5 with ddr3/4 as main memory (means more pins and availability of ddr5 modules will be an issue) ?

hd7790 performance with an igpu ! my hd6770 is not feeling well now even at 1000/1400mhz clocks (gpu/mem)

imo
they (amd) needs to improve efficiency of their imc of apu/cpu/gpu instead of increasing native supported speed
even their graphics cards are bad in memory bandwith efficiency, i only got 70GB/s bandwidth after an overclock of 4x1440 mhz from 4x1200mhz on gpu memory on my hd6770 in sandra benchmark
and if they can achieve >80% efficiency then they can easily provide much more performance without any other major change

 

[-Fran-]

http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/graphics/display/20130326234107_Leaked_Excepts_from_Intel_s_Documents_Reveal_Haswell_Graphics_Options_for_Notebooks.html

Looks like there will be a GT3 part for "regular" notebooks. Interesting enough, I'm pretty sure it will also be available for HTPCs.

AMD better have something good with Kaveri

Cheers!

EDIT: Forgot this http://www.anandtech.com/show/6862/fcat-the-evolution-of-frame-interval-benchmarking-part-1

Another good read, haha.

EDIT2: Tom's has its own analysis as well; awesome read: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/graphics-card-benchmarking-frame-rate,3466.html