Due to x86 monopoly, AMD cannot license x86 technology to third parties, only sell the x86 silicon they make. Nvidia couldn't even obtain a x86 license.
I think this may help answer some questions you may have.
It did help to understand that you are trolling when you are not too busy bashing AMD.
Im not bashing AMD, im bashing people who think an APU is going to be an awesome replacement for HEDT and only listens to marketing hype and badly written articles claiming AMD is making 100% profit on a product they are selling.
I am bashing people who post and repost articles that aren't even remotely true, hence the link I provided for any people who might need it.
You are bashing AMD with false statements. You take an article about Kaveri performance using ordinary CPU workloads and you claim it is using "APU optimized software". You take an article that doesn't claim a 100% profit (at contrary) and you claim it says 100% profit. You avoid technical discussion and pretend there is only marketing hype. You take another article with benchmarks and claim that are FAKE, because you pretend that Kaveri /Steamroller is 36% slower than Bulldozer... And lots of anti-AMD BS as that.
When have I ever claimed that those games were "APU optimized software"? This is a blatent lie made up by you. Kaveri will suck in those games I listed.
AMD sells a chip to sony for $100. Article states that. Then the article goes and sais AMD makes $100 per PS4 sold. One of those statemens is a lie.
Technical discussion about Kaveri owning DT is based on HSA enabled software only. You pretend this is all workloads and go around spreading it as ERMAGO.
Those fake numbers posted from the cosmology leak are fake. I don't know what ES chip that is, neither do you. Its someone's best GUESS that it was a kaveri. read this statement carefully. THE BD/PD NUMBERS WERE MADE UP LIES. END OF STORY I can't test kaveri, they can't test kaveri because that ES probably isn't even kaveri. I can however test BD and those BD/PD numbers are 100% FAKE, AKA LIES.
but hey, keep on believing that everything on the internet is true. It makes for a comical reading.
I didn't even mention the word "games". Your first false statement.
The article doesn't lie, because doesn't say what you pretend. Your second false statement.
HSA workloads have been always differentiated from ordinary CPU workloads. Your third false statement.
Your accusation that the cosmology site numbers are fake and the site is lying is another false statement. And your subsequent attemtp to prove it was comical, but your pretension (your 'proof' LOL) that Kaveri/Steamroller is a 36% (or did you say 39%?) slower than Bulldozer did me laugh for days.
All this shows, once again, that you are here to bash AMD with blatantly false statements and to attack any person or site that disagrees or correct you.
One or two days ago, I quoted AMD head saying explicitly why they will not compete with Intel in the high-performance x86 market anymore. I will quote now AMD about their server strategy and why are moving away from x86 to ARM (bold emphasis from mine):
The company said its first ARM server processors - which will be released in the second half of next year - will be faster and more powerful than its existing low-power x86 server processors.
AMD shared initial details on its 64-bit ARM chips, code-named Seattle, which will have up to 16 CPU cores. The chips will be up to four times faster and more power efficient than the quad-core Opteron X-series chips, which draw up to 11 watts of power and are based on the x86 architecture.
AMD will sell its first ARM processors alongside x86 server processors, which were also updated with new high-end Opteron chips due next year. But AMD expects ARM processors to outrun x86 chips in the long term.
Observers have said the ARM-based chips could give AMD an edge over Intel, and the move could be as significant as its introduction of 64-bit server chips in 2003, and dual-core chips in 2004. Both moves gave AMD a competitive advantage over Intel, but server chip delays and the failure of chips based on the Bulldozer core ultimately cost AMD market share.
"ARM servers hit the market for real in 2014, that's the try year," said Andrew Feldman, corporate vice president and general manager of the server business unit at AMD.
By 2016 or 2017, ARM CPUs will have 20 percent of the server market, Feldman said. Right now the server market is dominated by Intel's x86 chips, but Feldman said large data centers will start porting software from x86 to ARM in 2015.
ARM CPUs, which are cheaper and ship in higher volumes compared to the more expensive x86 chips, will prevail in the end, Feldman said.
"In the history of our industry, over the past 40 years, smaller, lower-cost, higher volume CPUs have always won," Feldman said.
AMD has been losing server processor market share to Intel, and its Seattle server chips signify a big change in direction for the company. AMD broke its reliance on the x86 architecture in October last year when it announced that it had licensed ARM's 64-bit architecture and would sell ARM-based server processors next year.
AMD's ARM-based server chips will be targeted at single-socket servers and also dense servers like the company's own SeaMicro servers. AMD will start shipping test units of the chips in the first quarter of 2014.
AMD will sell its first ARM processors alongside x86 server processors.
Now continue reading: "But AMD expects ARM processors to outrun x86 chips in the long term"
noob2222 :
AMD will sell LOW POWER ARM processors.
Now continue reading: "will be faster and more powerful than its existing low-power x86 server processors. [...] The chips will be up to four times faster and more power efficient than the quad-core Opteron X-series chips"
Do you know what "four times faster" mean? I do. The top Seattle processor has about the same GFLOP than a FX-8350 and more DMIPS.
noob2222 :
AMD will sell high-end Opteron chips
Now continue reading: "But AMD expects ARM processors to outrun x86 chips in the long term"
noob2222 :
Those are 2 different markets. Those are not the same market. Those are 2 different markets.
It is the same market. I already gave this quote before:
He also told us that “Warsaw”, AMD’s follow up in the 2P/4P server market, will cater for a declining but still large market with institutional customers that will take longer to migrate to an ARM ecosystem.
The x86 server CPU is aimed to customers that will need more time to port their software to ARM.
"He" is Andrew Feldman, head of AMD servers division.
noob2222 :
I have asked before. HOW LONG TILL ARM SURPASSES HIGH END x86? 2, 5, 7, 9 years? Long term is a pretty general statement, kinda like saying that today's cpus will eventually be replaced.
Nobody can say you a concrete datetime such as "February, day 23 at eight on clock...". But AMD already said that by 2015 big data centers will start to port their software to ARM. By 2016 ARM will have about double digit market share in servers.
(iv) Which is the efficiency of GCN compared to VLIW4?
Here is what I found using Tom's graphics cards charts for the reference HD 6970 and 7970
Extreme performance index (I thought it appropriate since these are top tier cards):
HD 6970 -- 84.57%
HD 7970 -- 120.27%
Power consumption at load:
HD 6970 -- 234 Watts
HD 7970 -- 254 Watts
Efficiency as Index % per Watt:
HD 6970 ~ 0.36
HD 7970 ~ 0.47
Efficiency gain from VLIW4 to GCN ~31%.
That is not valid, because is comparing total power consumption of two different cards made in very different processes (40nm vs 28nm).
So, those numbers are inaccurate because they represent valid comparisons? Or they are inaccurate because they don't suit your purpose? I am confused.
Neither one nor the other:
That is not valid, because is comparing total power consumption of two different cards made in very different processes (40nm vs 28nm).
One cannot evaluate the efficiency of an architecture by comparing the power consumption of a card that includes more than the architecture (there are many other things in a card beyond GCN or VLIW4 cores) and that is made in a very different process.
8350rocks :
That is basically the point. GCN > VLIW4. Even if VLIW4 was on 28nm, it would still not be as good as GCN. FYI: they went to GCN because it was good for compute, and game developers are appreciating the ease of coding for it, plus it pushes their HSA mantra by allowing easier/better GPU compute.
Add in that it consumes less power per watt, increases performance per thermal envelope, and nearly double TFLOPS in this last generation on the same node (which evidently is your holy grail of measurements judging by kaveri and the gflops quote you keep pushing).
Where are you missing the picture? It's clear as day...
GCN uses less power than VLIW4 cores. PERIOD. End of discussion.
And you continue dogging the question, as you have been doing for days. The question was:
(iv) Which is the efficiency of GCN compared to VLIW4?
At least he tried to answer the question giving a concrete number...
One or two days ago, I quoted AMD head saying explicitly why they will not compete with Intel in the high-performance x86 market anymore. I will quote now AMD about their server strategy and why are moving away from x86 to ARM (bold emphasis from mine):
The company said its first ARM server processors - which will be released in the second half of next year - will be faster and more powerful than its existing low-power x86 server processors.
AMD shared initial details on its 64-bit ARM chips, code-named Seattle, which will have up to 16 CPU cores. The chips will be up to four times faster and more power efficient than the quad-core Opteron X-series chips, which draw up to 11 watts of power and are based on the x86 architecture.
AMD will sell its first ARM processors alongside x86 server processors, which were also updated with new high-end Opteron chips due next year. But AMD expects ARM processors to outrun x86 chips in the long term.
Observers have said the ARM-based chips could give AMD an edge over Intel, and the move could be as significant as its introduction of 64-bit server chips in 2003, and dual-core chips in 2004. Both moves gave AMD a competitive advantage over Intel, but server chip delays and the failure of chips based on the Bulldozer core ultimately cost AMD market share.
"ARM servers hit the market for real in 2014, that's the try year," said Andrew Feldman, corporate vice president and general manager of the server business unit at AMD.
By 2016 or 2017, ARM CPUs will have 20 percent of the server market, Feldman said. Right now the server market is dominated by Intel's x86 chips, but Feldman said large data centers will start porting software from x86 to ARM in 2015.
ARM CPUs, which are cheaper and ship in higher volumes compared to the more expensive x86 chips, will prevail in the end, Feldman said.
"In the history of our industry, over the past 40 years, smaller, lower-cost, higher volume CPUs have always won," Feldman said.
AMD has been losing server processor market share to Intel, and its Seattle server chips signify a big change in direction for the company. AMD broke its reliance on the x86 architecture in October last year when it announced that it had licensed ARM's 64-bit architecture and would sell ARM-based server processors next year.
AMD's ARM-based server chips will be targeted at single-socket servers and also dense servers like the company's own SeaMicro servers. AMD will start shipping test units of the chips in the first quarter of 2014.
Except the wall street, google, blizzard, Verizon, and amazon wins...right? All those were in the last 6 months (i.e. since that statement was made).
What are you trying to say?
That recent SeaMicro Opteron design wins are stirring the server segment for AMD. It's not huge gains, but it is likely helping them out greatly because the margins are big.
Unless they did build a timemachine, travel to the future and purchase the future Seattle server, those customers only could purchase a x86 server. Therefore this claim: "AMD expects ARM processors to outrun x86 chips in the long term" holds.
Combining all this data, I predict that the CPU of the top Kaveri APU will be about 26% faster than top Trinity APU and about 17% faster than top Richland APU. This would put the multi-threaded performance of the CPU of the new quad core Kaveri APU at the same level than an Intel quad core i5 or a six-core AMD FX with traditional software.
For the GPU, I assumed a minimum gain of 33%. But then I was managing higher frequencies for the GPU by using the 1050GFLOP. Kaveri comes with lower GPU frequencies, the lower frequencies are compensated by the better architecture gain and Kaveri GPU is expected to be ~30% faster than Richland.
Finally, it seems my simulations are not very far...
I am thinking about just waiting for Excavator APU, i have a feeling that if i jump into Kaveri FM2+ now i will not be able to upgrade since FM2+ will be rapidly discontinued as soon as DDR4 hits market, so i believe the Socket have it`s days numbered.
This may be interesting, hopefully AMD benefits from this:
Due to x86 monopoly, AMD cannot license x86 technology to third parties, only sell the x86 silicon they make. Nvidia couldn't even obtain a x86 license.
I think this may help answer some questions you may have.
It did help to understand that you are trolling when you are not too busy bashing AMD.
Im not bashing AMD, im bashing people who think an APU is going to be an awesome replacement for HEDT and only listens to marketing hype and badly written articles claiming AMD is making 100% profit on a product they are selling.
I am bashing people who post and repost articles that aren't even remotely true, hence the link I provided for any people who might need it.
You are bashing AMD with false statements. You take an article about Kaveri performance using ordinary CPU workloads and you claim it is using "APU optimized software". You take an article that doesn't claim a 100% profit (at contrary) and you claim it says 100% profit. You avoid technical discussion and pretend there is only marketing hype. You take another article with benchmarks and claim that are FAKE, because you pretend that Kaveri /Steamroller is 36% slower than Bulldozer... And lots of anti-AMD BS as that.
When have I ever claimed that those games were "APU optimized software"? This is a blatent lie made up by you. Kaveri will suck in those games I listed.
AMD sells a chip to sony for $100. Article states that. Then the article goes and sais AMD makes $100 per PS4 sold. One of those statemens is a lie.
Technical discussion about Kaveri owning DT is based on HSA enabled software only. You pretend this is all workloads and go around spreading it as ERMAGO.
Those fake numbers posted from the cosmology leak are fake. I don't know what ES chip that is, neither do you. Its someone's best GUESS that it was a kaveri. read this statement carefully. THE BD/PD NUMBERS WERE MADE UP LIES. END OF STORY I can't test kaveri, they can't test kaveri because that ES probably isn't even kaveri. I can however test BD and those BD/PD numbers are 100% FAKE, AKA LIES.
but hey, keep on believing that everything on the internet is true. It makes for a comical reading.
I didn't even mention the word "games". Your first false statement.
The article doesn't lie, because doesn't say what you pretend. Your second false statement.
HSA workloads have been always differentiated from ordinary CPU workloads. Your third false statement.
Your accusation that the cosmology site numbers are fake and the site is lying is another false statement. And your subsequent attemtp to prove it was comical, but your pretension (your 'proof' LOL) that Kaveri/Steamroller is a 36% (or did you say 39%?) slower than Bulldozer did me laugh for days.
All this shows, once again, that you are here to bash AMD with blatantly false statements and to attack any person or site that disagrees or correct you.
This is entertaining ... rofl. You can't come up with any proof at all so you just try the "your a liar" tactic.
ARM DT has absolutely no inroads at this time for that. They won't offer anything different than x86 and yet will want to supplant x86? It's impossible. ARM will forever be relegated to tablets and phones and at best ARM will get lucky and land some roles in servers, but that's it.
The only chance I see of that happening in the near future (2-5 years) is if Apple does it. They have the money to do it and own the OS and hardware to do it.
At some point I'm sure they'd like to run their entire back end services on their own hardware.
The only chance I see of that happening in the near future (2-5 years) is if Apple does it. They have the money to do it and own the OS and hardware to do it.
At some point I'm sure they'd like to run their entire back end services on their own hardware.
shouldn't influence other pc makers. arm based apple desktops will run windows RT as dual boot. 😛
i doubt arm (and their partners) will permit lga cpus/socs for desktops. they'd go for something like all in one pcs with bga socs and on board discreet gpus and vram powering large 22" displays. meaning, no d.i.y. upgrading of central components.
shouldn't influence other pc makers. arm based apple desktops will run windows RT as dual boot. 😛
i doubt arm (and their partners) will permit lga cpus/socs for desktops. they'd go for something like all in one pcs with bga socs and on board discreet gpus and vram powering large 22" displays. meaning, no d.i.y. upgrading of central components.
Well DYI upgrading has already been declining. That doesn't have much to do with ARM/X86 but more to do with the form factors and costs.
They could come back though. You already see Motorola wanting to make a modular cell phone. And you got Xi3 with their modular and tiny computers. Its just going to cost you more.
ARM DT has absolutely no inroads at this time for that. They won't offer anything different than x86 and yet will want to supplant x86? It's impossible. ARM will forever be relegated to tablets and phones and at best ARM will get lucky and land some roles in servers, but that's it.
The only chance I see of that happening in the near future (2-5 years) is if Apple does it. They have the money to do it and own the OS and hardware to do it.
At some point I'm sure they'd like to run their entire back end services on their own hardware.
This already happened with PowerPC architecture and it had no effect at all on x86 in Windows environment. Apple could go ARM for everything but the entire ecosystem would be walled off from the rest of the world. Meaning the only way ARM could see significant DT/Workstation/Laptop marketshare is if Apple decided to go ARM and gained significant market share. And I'm not talking market share in comparison to Dell or HP or Asus, I'm talking market share as in lump all x86 Wintel and AMD companies together and compare them against Apple's ARMs.
Cazalan :
ARM DT has absolutely no inroads at this time for that. They won't offer anything different than x86 and yet will want to supplant x86? It's impossible. ARM will forever be relegated to tablets and phones and at best ARM will get lucky and land some roles in servers, but that's it.
The only chance I see of that happening in the near future (2-5 years) is if Apple does it. They have the money to do it and own the OS and hardware to do it.
At some point I'm sure they'd like to run their entire back end services on their own hardware.
Cazalan :
de5_Roy :
shouldn't influence other pc makers. arm based apple desktops will run windows RT as dual boot. 😛
i doubt arm (and their partners) will permit lga cpus/socs for desktops. they'd go for something like all in one pcs with bga socs and on board discreet gpus and vram powering large 22" displays. meaning, no d.i.y. upgrading of central components.
Well DYI upgrading has already been declining. That doesn't have much to do with ARM/X86 but more to do with the form factors and costs.
They could come back though. You already see Motorola wanting to make a modular cell phone. And you got Xi3 with their modular and tiny computers. Its just going to cost you more.
No one has anything worthwhile to upgrade to. I had a 4ghz i7 920 before the 5ghz FX 8350 and the only reasons why I did it was to cut compile and render times and because I wanted a new toy to overclock.
To be honest I probably lost some performance in single thread but it doesn't matter.
However anyone with common sense and a system that's not completely ancient (sub Phenom 2 or sub first gen Core i7) really doesn't have much of a reason to upgrade anything in their systems besides their graphics cards. And most people are still running 1080p monitors so even something like a 7970/280x is overkill.
The only chance I see of that happening in the near future (2-5 years) is if Apple does it. They have the money to do it and own the OS and hardware to do it.
At some point I'm sure they'd like to run their entire back end services on their own hardware.
shouldn't influence other pc makers. arm based apple desktops will run windows RT as dual boot. 😛
i doubt arm (and their partners) will permit lga cpus/socs for desktops. they'd go for something like all in one pcs with bga socs and on board discreet gpus and vram powering large 22" displays. meaning, no d.i.y. upgrading of central components.
The primary reason the mobile market is so profitable is the the devices are sold as disposable. People are changing their phones out every year or two. That's a much faster pace then for changing out their desktops. It's also why ARM mobile looks so big in sales numbers. People buy 2~3 phones for every DT, maybe even more.
i was wondering if arm would bring same disposability into pc ecosystem. imo, that would fail. now, people don't want to swap out their primary computing device so fast. the reason phones and tablets can be swapped so fast because pcs are acting as a stable base. arm might try to counter that with cloud services but that has it's disadvantages. when someone's pc is down, s/he can call customer service or a professional or perform some d.i.y. repair (not possible or very very difficult with highly integrated devices). but when cloud is down, everyone dependent on the cloud is screwed until services come back online. also you need rather high speed for up/downloading (and the cost to go with it).
the only advantage cloud offers is collaboration, team projects etc. that's not attractive to home users, more suitable for corporate/office use (even better with own cloud system).
This shows that you are so desperate trying to prove you are right, that you don't even read your own sources. To add to the excellent answer of the other poster, I will say that this research grant is for interconnects. Also pay attention to how AMD mentions HSA in the press release:
Also, as founding members of the Heterogeneous System Architecture Foundation, we are offering a mechanism to share our insights to benefit the industry-wide advancement of standard, open systems.
You can continue negating reality, but Opteron are outdated for HPC. According to last top500 list revealed this week, more than 82% of the supercomputers on the list use Xeon processors, a 9% use Opteron. And they moving out: e.g., Cray has moved from Opteron to Xeon for new (faster) HPC clusters.
AMD plans to recover HPC crowd don't rely on Opteron, because Opteron are replaced (pay attention to AMD server 2014 roadmap). And Warsaw replacement is, according to AMD, only for legacy customers.
AMD plans to recover HPC crowd rely on... APUs. I am not the only who think that
Technically, under US Law, a monopoly of X86 processors wouldn't be recognized as a monopoly, since the CPU market is quite vibrant right now. You have plenty of Windows alternatives, and nothing is stopping you from Windows Apps via WINE on Linux using an ARM CPU.
As for why there is no ARM port of Photoshop, it's because there's no suitable desktop operating system for ARM. Which is why AMD going ARM only puts them in an awkward situation as they would have to basically bow out of the desktop and laptop market completely.
GIMP is already ported to ARM and can be used in an ARM desktop machine (if you have one powerful enough). Photoshop doesn't port to ARM by the same reason that they don't port to any archs/OSs and offer the "Not supported on this architecture" error to some Mac desktop users.
The ARM servers will run an ARM OS that is virtually identical to the x86 version in features. Neither AMD nor someone else will be migrating today to ARM to miss desktop/laptop markets. The migration will be made when those markets are ready for the change, not before.
I already explained this migration is not something that will happen today nor tomorrow. I also offered a possible schedule, with desktops being the last in migrating.
blackkstar :
It would also completely invalidate their dGPU lineup. Firepro would be DOA after AMD abandons x86.
Nope. They will release GCN accelerators for ARM chips. I am said (but cannot verify it) that AMD Seattle is already HSA compatible.
Note also that Nvidia has already ported CUDA to ARM. CUDA is not for playing Android games. It is for High-Performance-Computing.
blackkstar :
Intel would more than likely slowly start phasing out PCIe in HEDT. They would have no reason to keep it around, those slots would only be used to sell competitor's parts. In workstation it would be the difference between customers buying Xeon Phi and customers buying Firepro or Quadro/Tesla.
Intel is already moving the next Xeon Phi to socket package for blocking customers to use FirePro/Teslas with Xeon CPUs.
blackkstar :
When you're speaking of AMD going ARM only in the future,
I didn't say "only", true?
You can't compare FLOSS projects to proprietary ones when it comes to compilation and ports.
I have a fully optimized version of GIMP for my FX 8350. Do you think Adobe would ever release a Piledriver enhanced version of Photoshop?
FLOSS projects are ported because a niche sector needs them to work while proprietary software is only ported when it is deemed profitable. Look how long Linux users have been barking for native Photoshop ports and look how mum Adobe has been on it. Yet GIMP makes it to ARM GNU/Linux of all things faster.
ARM + HSA is only going to be good for HPC workloads where you have access to compiling the software you want to run on your own. It won't ever be a replacement for a Windows laptop or desktop. It won't even be viable in an environment where there's a little bit of proprietary solution that isn't working with HSA and hasn't been ported to ARM.
It is a mess. Maybe I am just bitter because I am a Linux guy and Linux people who wanted x86 ports of software had to go as far as implementing Windows API in Linux because the software vendors who they have been begging to support x86 Linux won't do it.
So you can see why I'm sceptical of ARM ports of anything proprietary coming out. Companies are sluggish to port to x86 Linux, for them to port to something that's a fraction of a fraction of that (HSA enabled ARM Linux) seems like you'd have better luck winning the lottery.
If you want my opinion on this, we will see AMD have a huge contract win where AMD sells them a bunch of ARM APUs with GCN HSA enabled and that will be about the end of it. It makes more sense that way since AMD has been focusing on delivering products that actually server a purpose to a customer as opposed to creating parts and then waiting for companies to build something with them.
I do think that AMD is going to keep their x86 hardware lineup unchanged. I suppose what I'm getting at is you can think of ARM APU on AMD as a product like 8 core Jaguar for PS4 or xbone. Special product ordered by company that doesn't affect the lineup of other existing "legacy" products.
I would even go as far as to say that "legacy" market could even refer to a legacy market where customers don't order chips and instead buy what fits their needs best from the AMD lineup while the new customers with more money order specialized parts, like ARM APU with HSA.
Also, your pcmag link is only discussing servers. Which, IMHO, gives credibility to the fact that we're done seeing AMD sell CPUs that are released on server first and then HEDT second and instead just designing chips that work around HEDT gaming PCs first. It frees AMD from having to worry about how the chip will perform in server workloads while maintaining gaming performance or workstation performance.
I remain sceptical of ARM APU servers. They have potential but they will only work in situations where the client can use programs they can compile themselves AND where the software they want to use has HSA features or they can add their own.
For traditional microserver workloads, an ARM APU is completely useless as there's nothing there to take advantage of HSA and clients would be better off with a non-APU for that if it's a need served by traditional microservers.
Java is getting HSA which will help a ton, but it still is going to require HSA enabled code, so you end up waiting on ports if you're a proprietary software guy.
I am not comparing FOSS to proprietary in that way. I was showing how one can run Photoshop-like software in ARM hardware, because there is nothing 'magical' on x86 ISA.
Adobe doesn't release a version of Photoshop for the FX-8350 because there is no demand. If the FX-8350 was in a 90% of all the PCs, Adobe would optimize its software for it.
Adobe will release full Photoshop for ARM when there is enough ARM desktop/workstations for that kind of move. For instance, if Apple migrates to all ARM. Adobe will release a version of Photoshop for Apple-ARM.
ARM has joined the HSA foundation for spreading HSA from phones to HPC/servers. The PC desktop market is also in their target.
Again, I am not saying all this will happen tomorrow or the day after, only that it will happen.
Yeah, but you were making the example that GIMP runs on ARM so it's ok. I can tell you as a user of both Photoshop and GIMP that GIMP is no where near a replacement for Photoshop. GIMP is good software and I love it, but there are things that just don't work as well or are completely missing.
But here's the thing, even if ARM did gain marketshare it would take years upon years for it to get any sort of decent marketshare on desktop, laptop, and workstation.
And therein lies the problem with ARM going anywhere on desktop. You're going to have to convince people to go ARM and then wait for the software to show up.
It's pretty hard to sell someone a computer and tell them "you can use GIMP for now but maybe in the future if enough people buy ARM you can use Photoshop" when they can go out and buy x86 right away.
AMD is dealing with getting the hardware out that works on Mantle and HSA by selling people hardware under the premise of PC gaming. A day will come when software shows up and software vendors go "oh, by the way, you have GCN so you can use HSA and your program is now significantly faster". And in the meantime the people who own GCN products will be enjoying them for gaming.
ARM DT has absolutely no inroads at this time for that. They won't offer anything different than x86 and yet will want to supplant x86? It's impossible. ARM will forever be relegated to tablets and phones and at best ARM will get lucky and land some roles in servers, but that's it.
Let me put this into perspective. There's going to have to be a time when ARM DT and laptops are sold and there are none out there.
So imagine I am Lenovo, and I have three 11.6in laptops to choose from. Which one do you take?
A. The Intel Pentium or i3
B. The AMD Kabini APU
C. The ARM 116in laptop
Or even better yet, if you're so sure of ARM supplanting x86, tell me why you would buy an ARM laptop for your next device instead of x86. A group of people are going to have to make that jump and buying an ARM DT or laptop has no benefits over x86 at all. Who is going to go "oh golly gee the x86 ISA is really bloated so I'm going to get this ARM, I don't need Photoshop, recent versions of Flash, etc"
There will probably be a time (if it hasn't already) when there are more ARMs than x86s but ARM will never fully replace x86. Not unless ARM comes up with something that's significantly better than x86 at x86 dominated tasks like workstation type things and gaming.
I don't know of a single person who owns a tablet who has not asked me about either replacing it or getting a Windows laptop that can run regular programs they're used to.
First, I know someone with expertise on image editing (e.g. she did an image that is being used in two famous music CD covers) and she used both Photoshop and GIMP. And guess what in last update she dropped Photoshop and now only uses GIMP. For what she makes, she tell me that is more powerful than Photoshop. It is the contrary for others, I know.
But this is not the point. The point is not what program is better. The point is that Adobe could port Photoshop to ARM, without any problem. They are not doing it today, because ARM is not in the 80% of desktops and workstations.today.
Some people here would stop thinking how if x86 had some 'magic' that makes programs to run only in them.
I spend time repeating and repeating and repeating that ARM will not take the desktop tomorrow neither the next day, but it will take more time (several years). But still I am replied with "it would take years..." Why?
People will move to ARM desktops, about the same as moved to ARM tablets/phones and the same as they will be moving to HPC/servers.
Hardware makers are working closely with software houses. The Wintel monopoly is broken. AMD has been working with game developers and developing MANTLE before presenting the new GCN hardware. AMD is working in HSA software support before the first HSA APU is in the street.
ARM doesn't plan to introduce ARM in HPC/servers/desktop/laptop without software prepared before.
Nvidia has already ported CUDA to ARM, before their HPC SoC is ready, for people starting to port and test.
I spend time repeating and repeating and repeating that ARM will not fully replace x86 and that x86 will remain as niche. But still I am replied with "ARM will not fully replace..." Why?
Due to x86 monopoly, AMD cannot license x86 technology to third parties, only sell the x86 silicon they make. Nvidia couldn't even obtain a x86 license.
I think this may help answer some questions you may have.
It did help to understand that you are trolling when you are not too busy bashing AMD.
Im not bashing AMD, im bashing people who think an APU is going to be an awesome replacement for HEDT and only listens to marketing hype and badly written articles claiming AMD is making 100% profit on a product they are selling.
I am bashing people who post and repost articles that aren't even remotely true, hence the link I provided for any people who might need it.
You are bashing AMD with false statements. You take an article about Kaveri performance using ordinary CPU workloads and you claim it is using "APU optimized software". You take an article that doesn't claim a 100% profit (at contrary) and you claim it says 100% profit. You avoid technical discussion and pretend there is only marketing hype. You take another article with benchmarks and claim that are FAKE, because you pretend that Kaveri /Steamroller is 36% slower than Bulldozer... And lots of anti-AMD BS as that.
When have I ever claimed that those games were "APU optimized software"? This is a blatent lie made up by you. Kaveri will suck in those games I listed.
AMD sells a chip to sony for $100. Article states that. Then the article goes and sais AMD makes $100 per PS4 sold. One of those statemens is a lie.
Technical discussion about Kaveri owning DT is based on HSA enabled software only. You pretend this is all workloads and go around spreading it as ERMAGO.
Those fake numbers posted from the cosmology leak are fake. I don't know what ES chip that is, neither do you. Its someone's best GUESS that it was a kaveri. read this statement carefully. THE BD/PD NUMBERS WERE MADE UP LIES. END OF STORY I can't test kaveri, they can't test kaveri because that ES probably isn't even kaveri. I can however test BD and those BD/PD numbers are 100% FAKE, AKA LIES.
but hey, keep on believing that everything on the internet is true. It makes for a comical reading.
I didn't even mention the word "games". Your first false statement.
The article doesn't lie, because doesn't say what you pretend. Your second false statement.
HSA workloads have been always differentiated from ordinary CPU workloads. Your third false statement.
Your accusation that the cosmology site numbers are fake and the site is lying is another false statement. And your subsequent attemtp to prove it was comical, but your pretension (your 'proof' LOL) that Kaveri/Steamroller is a 36% (or did you say 39%?) slower than Bulldozer did me laugh for days.
All this shows, once again, that you are here to bash AMD with blatantly false statements and to attack any person or site that disagrees or correct you.
This is entertaining ... rofl. I can't come up with any proof at all so I just try the "your a liar" tactic.
"People will move to ARM desktops"
Is there even a Arm desktop that is more powerful than a Celeron machine yet? Does common people even buy desktops new? Will the same software and printer drivers work on a arm system? Will crysis 5 be able to max out of a Arm machine? And finally people made a big problem when Vista came out because of software compatibility what about a Arm machine?
Not only that! You can't even say that ARM is more efficient than x86. After all, one cannot evaluate the efficiency of an architecture by comparing the power consumption of a setup that includes more than the architecture (there are many other things in a computer beyond ARM or x86 cores) and that is made in a very different process.
DDR4 memory won't show up in PCs, tablets until 2015 http://www.pcworld.com/article/2066756/ddr4-memory-wont-show-up-in-pcs-tablets-until-2015.html
points to note:
■ aimed at higher perf/watt i.e. power efficiency. clueless people who disregard power efficiency should ignore this.
■ will first appear in servers.
■ amd will introduce ddr4 support on servers first.
■ mainstream availability/ price drop/ market penetration not until 2015-late 2015.
users should expect a new socket(s) in amd's lineups in 2015. amd never said which opterons will receive ddr4 support first though. these are analysts' projections.
Technically, under US Law, a monopoly of X86 processors wouldn't be recognized as a monopoly, since the CPU market is quite vibrant right now. You have plenty of Windows alternatives, and nothing is stopping you from Windows Apps via WINE on Linux using an ARM CPU.
As for why there is no ARM port of Photoshop, it's because there's no suitable desktop operating system for ARM. Which is why AMD going ARM only puts them in an awkward situation as they would have to basically bow out of the desktop and laptop market completely.
GIMP is already ported to ARM and can be used in an ARM desktop machine (if you have one powerful enough). Photoshop doesn't port to ARM by the same reason that they don't port to any archs/OSs and offer the "Not supported on this architecture" error to some Mac desktop users.
The ARM servers will run an ARM OS that is virtually identical to the x86 version in features. Neither AMD nor someone else will be migrating today to ARM to miss desktop/laptop markets. The migration will be made when those markets are ready for the change, not before.
I already explained this migration is not something that will happen today nor tomorrow. I also offered a possible schedule, with desktops being the last in migrating.
blackkstar :
It would also completely invalidate their dGPU lineup. Firepro would be DOA after AMD abandons x86.
Nope. They will release GCN accelerators for ARM chips. I am said (but cannot verify it) that AMD Seattle is already HSA compatible.
Note also that Nvidia has already ported CUDA to ARM. CUDA is not for playing Android games. It is for High-Performance-Computing.
blackkstar :
Intel would more than likely slowly start phasing out PCIe in HEDT. They would have no reason to keep it around, those slots would only be used to sell competitor's parts. In workstation it would be the difference between customers buying Xeon Phi and customers buying Firepro or Quadro/Tesla.
Intel is already moving the next Xeon Phi to socket package for blocking customers to use FirePro/Teslas with Xeon CPUs.
blackkstar :
When you're speaking of AMD going ARM only in the future,
I didn't say "only", true?
You can't compare FLOSS projects to proprietary ones when it comes to compilation and ports.
I have a fully optimized version of GIMP for my FX 8350. Do you think Adobe would ever release a Piledriver enhanced version of Photoshop?
FLOSS projects are ported because a niche sector needs them to work while proprietary software is only ported when it is deemed profitable. Look how long Linux users have been barking for native Photoshop ports and look how mum Adobe has been on it. Yet GIMP makes it to ARM GNU/Linux of all things faster.
ARM + HSA is only going to be good for HPC workloads where you have access to compiling the software you want to run on your own. It won't ever be a replacement for a Windows laptop or desktop. It won't even be viable in an environment where there's a little bit of proprietary solution that isn't working with HSA and hasn't been ported to ARM.
It is a mess. Maybe I am just bitter because I am a Linux guy and Linux people who wanted x86 ports of software had to go as far as implementing Windows API in Linux because the software vendors who they have been begging to support x86 Linux won't do it.
So you can see why I'm sceptical of ARM ports of anything proprietary coming out. Companies are sluggish to port to x86 Linux, for them to port to something that's a fraction of a fraction of that (HSA enabled ARM Linux) seems like you'd have better luck winning the lottery.
If you want my opinion on this, we will see AMD have a huge contract win where AMD sells them a bunch of ARM APUs with GCN HSA enabled and that will be about the end of it. It makes more sense that way since AMD has been focusing on delivering products that actually server a purpose to a customer as opposed to creating parts and then waiting for companies to build something with them.
I do think that AMD is going to keep their x86 hardware lineup unchanged. I suppose what I'm getting at is you can think of ARM APU on AMD as a product like 8 core Jaguar for PS4 or xbone. Special product ordered by company that doesn't affect the lineup of other existing "legacy" products.
I would even go as far as to say that "legacy" market could even refer to a legacy market where customers don't order chips and instead buy what fits their needs best from the AMD lineup while the new customers with more money order specialized parts, like ARM APU with HSA.
Also, your pcmag link is only discussing servers. Which, IMHO, gives credibility to the fact that we're done seeing AMD sell CPUs that are released on server first and then HEDT second and instead just designing chips that work around HEDT gaming PCs first. It frees AMD from having to worry about how the chip will perform in server workloads while maintaining gaming performance or workstation performance.
I remain sceptical of ARM APU servers. They have potential but they will only work in situations where the client can use programs they can compile themselves AND where the software they want to use has HSA features or they can add their own.
For traditional microserver workloads, an ARM APU is completely useless as there's nothing there to take advantage of HSA and clients would be better off with a non-APU for that if it's a need served by traditional microservers.
Java is getting HSA which will help a ton, but it still is going to require HSA enabled code, so you end up waiting on ports if you're a proprietary software guy.
I am not comparing FOSS to proprietary in that way. I was showing how one can run Photoshop-like software in ARM hardware, because there is nothing 'magical' on x86 ISA.
Adobe doesn't release a version of Photoshop for the FX-8350 because there is no demand. If the FX-8350 was in a 90% of all the PCs, Adobe would optimize its software for it.
Adobe will release full Photoshop for ARM when there is enough ARM desktop/workstations for that kind of move. For instance, if Apple migrates to all ARM. Adobe will release a version of Photoshop for Apple-ARM.
ARM has joined the HSA foundation for spreading HSA from phones to HPC/servers. The PC desktop market is also in their target.
Again, I am not saying all this will happen tomorrow or the day after, only that it will happen.
Yeah, but you were making the example that GIMP runs on ARM so it's ok. I can tell you as a user of both Photoshop and GIMP that GIMP is no where near a replacement for Photoshop. GIMP is good software and I love it, but there are things that just don't work as well or are completely missing.
But here's the thing, even if ARM did gain marketshare it would take years upon years for it to get any sort of decent marketshare on desktop, laptop, and workstation.
And therein lies the problem with ARM going anywhere on desktop. You're going to have to convince people to go ARM and then wait for the software to show up.
It's pretty hard to sell someone a computer and tell them "you can use GIMP for now but maybe in the future if enough people buy ARM you can use Photoshop" when they can go out and buy x86 right away.
AMD is dealing with getting the hardware out that works on Mantle and HSA by selling people hardware under the premise of PC gaming. A day will come when software shows up and software vendors go "oh, by the way, you have GCN so you can use HSA and your program is now significantly faster". And in the meantime the people who own GCN products will be enjoying them for gaming.
ARM DT has absolutely no inroads at this time for that. They won't offer anything different than x86 and yet will want to supplant x86? It's impossible. ARM will forever be relegated to tablets and phones and at best ARM will get lucky and land some roles in servers, but that's it.
Let me put this into perspective. There's going to have to be a time when ARM DT and laptops are sold and there are none out there.
So imagine I am Lenovo, and I have three 11.6in laptops to choose from. Which one do you take?
A. The Intel Pentium or i3
B. The AMD Kabini APU
C. The ARM 116in laptop
Or even better yet, if you're so sure of ARM supplanting x86, tell me why you would buy an ARM laptop for your next device instead of x86. A group of people are going to have to make that jump and buying an ARM DT or laptop has no benefits over x86 at all. Who is going to go "oh golly gee the x86 ISA is really bloated so I'm going to get this ARM, I don't need Photoshop, recent versions of Flash, etc"
There will probably be a time (if it hasn't already) when there are more ARMs than x86s but ARM will never fully replace x86. Not unless ARM comes up with something that's significantly better than x86 at x86 dominated tasks like workstation type things and gaming.
I don't know of a single person who owns a tablet who has not asked me about either replacing it or getting a Windows laptop that can run regular programs they're used to.
First, I know someone with expertise on image editing (e.g. she did an image that is being used in two famous music CD covers) and she used both Photoshop and GIMP. And guess what in last update she dropped Photoshop and now only uses GIMP. For what she makes, she tell me that is more powerful than Photoshop. It is the contrary for others, I know.
But this is not the point. The point is not what program is better. The point is that Adobe could port Photoshop to ARM, without any problem. They are not doing it today, because ARM is not in the 80% of desktops and workstations.today.
Some people here would stop thinking how if x86 had some 'magic' that makes programs to run only in them.
I spend time repeating and repeating and repeating that ARM will not take the desktop tomorrow neither the next day, but it will take more time (several years). But still I am replied with "it would take years..." Why?
People will move to ARM desktops, about the same as moved to ARM tablets/phones and the same as they will be moving to HPC/servers.
Hardware makers are working closely with software houses. The Wintel monopoly is broken. AMD has been working with game developers and developing MANTLE before presenting the new GCN hardware. AMD is working in HSA software support before the first HSA APU is in the street.
ARM doesn't plan to introduce ARM in HPC/servers/desktop/laptop without software prepared before.
Nvidia has already ported CUDA to ARM, before their HPC SoC is ready, for people starting to port and test.
I spend time repeating and repeating and repeating that ARM will not fully replace x86 and that x86 will remain as niche. But still I am replied with "ARM will not fully replace..." Why?
I do agree GIMP is not bad but it's not going to be easy to get people to switch.
The thing is that ARM will never be a majority on desktop, workstation, and mobile workstation and laptops.
Your comparison between the shift from ARM on tablets/phones are not the same as the markets I'm mentioning. There were no mobile phones which offered x86 compatibility before the advent of ARM.
The dominant OS on mobile before 2010 was Symbian. How many people are going to miss all those Symbian applications when they move to Android, iOS, or WP8?
And how many people would have applications they would miss giving up Windows and any OS that has Windows compatibility (WINE, DARWINE, etc)? My guess is a lot.
If anything these ARM chips are being built to serve a different purpose than x86 chips, and they're finding success by doing what x86 doesn't. It's not meant to replace it and it never will on DT and laptop.
But as I've said it will have a home on tablets and phones forever and x86 won't go anywhere there. Classic x86 applications are useless on that form factor, and x86 has the same problem ARM has on DT where there's not as much software (and yes I'm pretty sure Android VM works on x86 just fine).
ARM will do fine in HPC because those types of folks are running fully custom software stacks that they can do what they please with. Recompiling when you have source code makes it possible, but it's not something people want to do.
For a real world example of people not wanting to go through hoops to recompile things, compare the popularity of distributions like Linux From Scratch and Gentoo to Ubuntu and variants of it (or even Debian and all variants, which all variants of Ubuntu are).
AMD would have a chance of pushing ARM on DT and laptop if they could do like Loongson and implement some x86 instructions for backwards compatibility but they aren't, they're just licensing cores.
ARM's problem when competing with x86 in markets where x86 still dominates is an extremely common problem for hardware that doesn't have software to back it up and the most current example I can think of off the top of my head is Wii U.
It is a good innovative system and people would argue that it's better than xbone and PS4, but it doesn't have that many games. Even with Nintendo releasing a few killer pieces of software (like you're implying ARM will somehow do when they make their giant push for ARM DT) it's still not going to be enough to drag people away from CoD/Halo/Killzone and the vast libraries on Xbox 360 and PS3. Nintendo is only holding on by the fact that it basically has fans and ARM has no consumer level fans for that to work.
Curiously enough ARM DT would suffer the same problem that Ouya console suffers. People look at it and think it's a great idea until they actually go to buy one and run around going "where's COD/Mario/Killzone/Battlefield/etc"
And the same situation will happen with ARM on DT and laptop no matter how much software ARM somehow manages to bring with it.
Of course I think a simpler example of why ARM won't go anywhere on DT and Laptop is comparing Windows RT to Windows 8. Windows 8 is not doing that well but Windows RT is abysmal. Care to guess why?
ARM will stay in mobile like Phones/Tablets, HPC where clients are using open source and can recompile, and in other closed ecosystems (Apple, Smartwhatevers like SmartTVs, SmartFridges, etc).
By suggesting that ARM will win in DT and laptops for actually doing things is suggesting that ARM will replace those products with x86 in them by not being able to do the things that people who buy x86 products buy them for.
GIMP is good and can replace Photoshop, but can you replace all the 3d modelling software? Software like FL Studio, Pro Tools, etc?
Adobe Creative Suite alone is an impossible task for open source to tackle in the next few years and that's not including Autodesk and tons of other companies that make industry standard software.
And lets not even touch on the subject of games again. Would you trade all the games you can play on PC for all the games in Tegra Zone and Google Play + a few titles that get ARM ports?
DDR4 memory won't show up in PCs, tablets until 2015 http://www.pcworld.com/article/2066756/ddr4-memory-wont-show-up-in-pcs-tablets-until-2015.html
points to note:
■ aimed at higher perf/watt i.e. power efficiency. clueless people who disregard power efficiency should ignore this.
■ will first appear in servers.
■ amd will introduce ddr4 support on servers first.
■ mainstream availability/ price drop/ market penetration not until 2015-late 2015.
users should expect a new socket(s) in amd's lineups in 2015. amd never said which opterons will receive ddr4 support first though. these are analysts' projections.
Nope. First, the entire Opteron line is replaced the next year. It is difficult that AMD is introducing DDR4 support in an outdated product.
However, AMD will begin supporting DDR4 with the Hierofalcon SoC
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