AMD Piledriver rumours ... and expert conjecture

[Reynod]

We have had several requests for a sticky on AMD's yet to be released Piledriver architecture ... so here it is.

I want to make a few things clear though.

Post a question relevant to the topic, or information about the topic, or it will be deleted.

Post any negative personal comments about another user ... and they will be deleted.

Post flame baiting comments about the blue, red and green team and they will be deleted.

Enjoy ...

 

[fazers_on_stun]

I would not call it "crap" so blatantly, because the FTC did in fact found Intel guilty.

Not to quibble too much, but the FTC is merely an administrative agency, not a court of law. Therefore they are not able to find anybody "guilty" of anything - all they can do is impose fines and penalties which can be challenged in a court of law.

And FYI Intel is appealing the European equivalent of the FTC - the "EC" or European Commission - fine of several years ago, to a European court. I doubt they will succeed but at least they will get their side of the story in the public's eye..

 

[fazers_on_stun]

Sooo... How 'bout that Piledriver...

I blame this whole mess on AMD. If they would only leak some ES or news now and then.

Pile Who?? 😀

Oh yeah, AMD's next-gen CPU. For a minute I forgot what this thread was about 😛...

Anyway, Trinity is supposed to be out in less than 2 weeks, right? Supposed to use PD cores IIRC, so the CPU benchies should indicate something..

 

[de5_Roy]

hopefully amd has figured out a way to solve bd's cache/branch prediction issues (those were two of the big issues with bd, right?) with pd.
i vaguely recall an old rumor/bench where trinity's (pd minus l3 cache) cpu performance seemed lower than llano's. hopefully amd will 'leak' some benches now that trinity launch is inching closer.

 

[noob2222]

^^ Based on that, looks like that you have optmizations for different CPU brands [CentaurHauls = VIA, CyrixInstead = Cyrix].

Easist solution, again, would be to use a program that figures out which compiler actually compiled the program.

I also note, the "Its the Intel Compilers fault" argument does NOTHING to explain why BD is oftentimes slower then Phenom [since, based on the argument, both would be running generic X86 code].

As I said before on the Phenom comparison, BD takes a 20% hit from CMT (shared front end across 2 cores). Even with only a 10% clock advantage, its still pretty close to Phenom II 1100T, and often just as fast as the faster clocked 980. IPC isn't that bad compared to PII, cache latency is horrid and at times it shows its ugly face.

 

[Cazalan]

hopefully amd has figured out a way to solve bd's cache/branch prediction issues (those were two of the big issues with bd, right?) with pd.
i vaguely recall an old rumor/bench where trinity's (pd minus l3 cache) cpu performance seemed lower than llano's. hopefully amd will 'leak' some benches now that trinity launch is inching closer.

They're only touting a 30% gain over Llano (CPU wise) so doesn't look like much changed with the design other than the clock mesh tech and FMA3. That 30% is almost entirely clock speed gains.

A8-3870K (3GHz) vs A10-5800K (4.2Ghz Turbo)

They did remove the L3 cache latency though.

 

[esrever]

They did remove the L3 cache latency though.

they removed the entire L3

 

[esrever]

Computex would be when trinity and ivybridge laptops really come out I would think.

 

[viridiancrystal]

Unless you are facing a GPU bottleneck, which would be alarming to say the least. Only way to know for sure would be to reduce resolution/settings to minimum and run the same test again.

Cinebench's cpu test has absolutely no gpu dependence, and no resolution/quality settings. It's a synthetic benchmark.

 

[noob2222]

you can try all you want to lighten the BS of how bad it is in comparison or reference to it being the 'new' architecture.
but the bottom line is all FX chip besides the FX-81xx are crap and the only reason the FX-81xx isn't considered crap
is because the 'so-called' 8 cores / 4 modules do finally equal an i5-2500K and few apps the 2600K.
that's it dude..... that's it.
so you constantly trying to champion your choice in CPU's is understandable but in general AMD lost this one.
not trying to hear your ideas why and all these what if's....
Piledriver or bust.

only thing I was saying is that people get stuck on one particular aspect that happens with a few programs. If you use that particular program, then its not for you. If you already have a phenom II, then no its not worth upgrading, if your not using the potential that the cpu has, its not worth upgrading.

There are 2 sides, but generally people only want to hear one and don't care about the other half. I never said bd was a completely flawless chip, heck even trying to get mine to run properly had issues, and still have one benchmark that isn't running the way all the other benchmarks show. But I dont use that program so it doesn't seem necessary in my case to throw a fit over. Everything else I have seems to be running faster than most (at least seems that way), and definately faster than all the reviews show.

People keep saying how bad it is ... if 2-3% is bad for you well then it is, nothing I can say about your measure. Its what you see.

I consider that a pretty mild tradeoff for those few programs, for me 2-3% isn't visible and not worth throing a fit about considering there are just as many apps that run 2-3% faster. FYI I upgraded from an Athlon 64 X2

 

[jdwii]

only thing I was saying is that people get stuck on one particular aspect that happens with a few programs. If you use that particular program, then its not for you. If you already have a phenom II, then no its not worth upgrading, if your not using the potential that the cpu has, its not worth upgrading.

There are 2 sides, but generally people only want to hear one and don't care about the other half. I never said bd was a completely flawless chip, heck even trying to get mine to run properly had issues, and still have one benchmark that isn't running the way all the other benchmarks show. But I dont use that program so it doesn't seem necessary in my case to throw a fit over. Everything else I have seems to be running faster than most (at least seems that way), and definately faster than all the reviews show.

People keep saying how bad it is ... if 2-3% is bad for you well then it is, nothing I can say about your measure. Its what you see.

I consider that a pretty mild tradeoff for those few programs, for me 2-3% isn't visible and not worth throing a fit about considering there are just as many apps that run 2-3% faster. FYI I upgraded from an Athlon 64 X2

Wow where did this 2-3% figure come in? Face the facts when BD first came out the 8150fx was priced to high but now its priced where it should of been! If the 8150fx was 205$ when i was going to get a new CPU i would of gotten it instead of the 1100T. But Amd had supply issues or they simply had to overcharge their processor so i(and many others) did not get it.

The fact is it has a bigger die size(higher prices or less money for Amd) its TDP is higher then The competitions comparable product(2500K) and it can barley keep up with the 2500K in most benchmarks and often times loses in even some multithreaded ones. This is shown around multiple web sites over and over again, Not to mention i read( i have almost no life) all the comments on Newegg and a lot of people are complaining saying its slower then their x4 or x6 Phenom at some things.

But unlike others here I know if Amd cares enough and puts enough resources into it this can be fixed, even looking at the design you can tell their are a lot of improvements to be made, I'm just hoping Amd did not get rid of all their good engineers!

And after looking at Ivy i think Trinity is going to be a huge success and its going to help Amd take more market share from Intel! When it comes out for review in 12 days we will have a pretty big idea on PD performance.

 

[noob2222]

Wow where did this 2-3% figure come in? Face the facts when BD first came out the 8150fx was priced to high but now its priced where it should of been! If the 8150fx was 205$ when i was going to get a new CPU i would of gotten it instead of the 1100T. But Amd had supply issues or they simply had to overcharge their processor so i(and many others) did not get it.

vs phenom II not Intel. Sorry, the faster 980 managed to reach 7% on one game. So 2-7% if you don't consider equal clocks.

http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/hardware-canucks-reviews/47155-amd-bulldozer-fx-8150-processor-review-21.html

I have never denied the 8150 was overpriced. 8120 is where the p/p is as long as you clock it to 8150 levels.

 

[jimmysmitty]

Wow where did this 2-3% figure come in? Face the facts when BD first came out the 8150fx was priced to high but now its priced where it should of been! If the 8150fx was 205$ when i was going to get a new CPU i would of gotten it instead of the 1100T. But Amd had supply issues or they simply had to overcharge their processor so i(and many others) did not get it.

The fact is it has a bigger die size(higher prices or less money for Amd) its TDP is higher then The competitions comparable product(2500K) and it can barley keep up with the 2500K in most benchmarks and often times loses in even some multithreaded ones. This is shown around multiple web sites over and over again, Not to mention i read( i have almost no life) all the comments on Newegg and a lot of people are complaining saying its slower then their x4 or x6 Phenom at some things.

But unlike others here I know if Amd cares enough and puts enough resources into it this can be fixed, even looking at the design you can tell their are a lot of improvements to be made, I'm just hoping Amd did not get rid of all their good engineers!

And after looking at Ivy i think Trinity is going to be a huge success and its going to help Amd take more market share from Intel! When it comes out for review in 12 days we will have a pretty big idea on PD performance.

Trinitys biggest market will still be laptops and it will have to still compete well there vs IB. We know that IB seems to run fine on lower voltages and thats when it seems to use less power. For laptops, that is more important than most other things.

IB will do pretty well there. As to how well Trinity will do, we have to wait and see.

 

[palladin9479]

a true gamer dose not game on a 'laptop' anyways.....

So what exactly am I supposed to do after work when I get back to my hotel room in Seoul, Tokyo or heaven forbid Fort Belvoir?

Sit there and lament on how because I'm a true gamer I could not possible play a few games on the laptop sitting in front of me?

Or should I quit my rather nice paying job and cease all vertical career movement so that I can stay in my moms basement and be a "real gamer"?

Face the facts folks, there is a very real market segment of people like me who grew up with video games but now have real lives and professions. I know this because my office is packed with them, there are five other twenty-thirty-somethings who are in the exact same situation I am. All trinity needs to do is improve on the performance levels of the Llano APU's, Intel has nothing remotely competitive in this market segment. Intel is still years behind ATI / NVidia in graphics development, their closing the gap but there are some things that just take time.

 

[jdwii]

a true gamer dose not game on a 'laptop' anyways.....

So what exactly am I supposed to do after work when I get back to my hotel room in Seoul, Tokyo or heaven forbid Fort Belvoir?

Sit there and lament on how because I'm a true gamer I could not possible play a few games on the laptop sitting in front of me?

Or should I quit my rather nice paying job and cease all vertical career movement so that I can stay in my moms basement and be a "real gamer"?

Face the facts folks, there is a very real market segment of people like me who grew up with video games but now have real lives and professions. I know this because my office is packed with them, there are five other twenty-thirty-somethings who are in the exact same situation I am. All trinity needs to do is improve on the performance levels of the Llano APU's, Intel has nothing remotely competitive in this market segment. Intel is still years behind ATI / NVidia in graphics development, their closing the gap but there are some things that just take time.

I'm going to go with the basement! Lol

No i agree 100% on this those APU's get the job done when it comes to gaming on modest settings. Some times people put to much focus on the graphics instead of the gameplay. This would probably explain why gaming is going down hill.

 

[-Fran-]

(LOOK FOLKS! TWICE THE CORES!!)

Now looking at the above table will cause just about anyone who's been even casually awaiting Bulldozer to ask; what the hell happened? Nearly across the board we experienced a serious decline in performance. The only exception to this was WinRAR 4.0.1, which is probably making use of one the new instruction sets.

It's impossible for us to tell whether the issue is the inherent performance-killing effect of the additional pipeline stages, whether the integer cores are waiting for access to resources and thus creating extra latency, or whether the much higher cache latencies are the main cause for this situation. Assuming our numbers are indeed correct, something has pretty clearly caused overall clock-per-clock performance to dive off a cliff.

Yes, Zambezi might take the lead in some specialized software that takes advantage of its AES, AVX, FMA4, and XOP instructions, but those are few and far between in the consumer software realm at the moment. As you will see in the coming pages, at full-strength the FX-8150 can deliver some impressive multi-threaded performance, but single and lightly-threaded performance has actually gotten worse despite the huge clock speed advantage that Zambezi brings over Phenom II.

Ding ding ding.

I'll wait on gamerks findings if he gets what he said.

a true gamer dose not game on a 'laptop' anyways.....

So what exactly am I supposed to do after work when I get back to my hotel room in Seoul, Tokyo or heaven forbid Fort Belvoir?

Sit there and lament on how because I'm a true gamer I could not possible play a few games on the laptop sitting in front of me?

Or should I quit my rather nice paying job and cease all vertical career movement so that I can stay in my moms basement and be a "real gamer"?

Face the facts folks, there is a very real market segment of people like me who grew up with video games but now have real lives and professions. I know this because my office is packed with them, there are five other twenty-thirty-somethings who are in the exact same situation I am. All trinity needs to do is improve on the performance levels of the Llano APU's, Intel has nothing remotely competitive in this market segment. Intel is still years behind ATI / NVidia in graphics development, their closing the gap but there are some things that just take time.

Add that to when you don't want to carry around your 1080p 22" monitor + keyboard + case/tower for a LAN Party at a friends house... I did that back in the day and I certainly don't have the strength to do it now; even with the car xD

And I bought the HP DV6-6175LA (A8 3500, 8GB 1333, 1080p 15", 6750 discrete, link in spanish) for my GF. She's still configuring it, but the 1080p screen in the 15" form factor is quite lovely. I'll wait for Trinity to buy one for myself if they turn out good and run the comparison. I hope they arrive at least with not more than a 10% premium over the current A8s; or maybe I'll just ask Mal for one, hahaha.

Cheers!

 

[palladin9479]

Add that to when you don't want to carry around your 1080p 22" monitor + keyboard + case/tower for a LAN Party at a friends house... I did that back in the day and I certainly don't have the strength to do it now; even with the car xD

Nope nope nope. Real gamers would absolutely refuse to play without their kit. How could I possibly go without my 800D complete with water-cooled dual 580's. Death first!!!!

Seriously though, I don't care what anyone things I am ~NOT~ carrying that system to a friends house. I love on the 27th floor of my apartment building, carrying a full blown setup down the hall to the elevator then into the car parking would be a nightmare.

-=Edit=-

Today found that EVGA is making Hydro 680's

I'm so tempted .. but I want another year on my current set before I purchase again.

 

[Reynod]

you can try all you want to lighten the BS of how bad it is in comparison or reference to it being the 'new' architecture.
but the bottom line is all FX chip besides the FX-81xx are crap and the only reason the FX-81xx isn't considered crap
is because the 'so-called' 8 cores / 4 modules do finally equal an i5-2500K and few apps the 2600K.
that's it dude..... that's it.
so you constantly trying to champion your choice in CPU's is understandable but in general AMD lost this one.
not trying to hear your ideas why and all these what if's....
Piledriver or bust.

It is probably time to close the thread for a while since people can't get along.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

http://news.softpedia.com/news/AMD-Trinity-Architectural-Preview-Part-II-267131.shtml
http://news.softpedia.com/news/AMD-Trinity-Architectural-Preview-Part-III-267469.shtml

 

[Reynod]

This topic has been reopen by ReyNOD

 

[truegenius]

Is anybody got any idea on how much trinity will cost?
And release/launch date of trinity?

Trinity has a bigger die size of 246 square millimeters. That’s bigger than Llano’s 228 square millimeters, however, Llano comes with 1.45 billion transistors versus Trinity’s 1.303 billion.

looks like a cooler apu 😀
but larger die mean higher cost 😱

AMD managed to capture a very important 43 percent of the desktop market

😱

 

[viridiancrystal]

Is anybody got any idea on how much trinity will cost?
And release/launch date of trinity?


looks like a cooler apu 😀
but larger die mean higher cost 😱


😱

Well laptop models are launching in 10 days. The cost will probably be close to what Llano was, fitting in between the i3's and i5's for the high-end models. If it does really well we might see the A10's near the [strike]un[/strike]locked i5's, but probably not.

I always thought that it was the amount of transistors that a chip used that determined the cost, but I might be mistaken.

 

[noob2222]

Well laptop models are launching in 10 days. The cost will probably be close to what Llano was, fitting in between the i3's and i5's for the high-end models. If it does really well we might see the A10's near the [strike]un[/strike]locked i5's, but probably not.

I always thought that it was the amount of transistors that a chip used that determined the cost, but I might be mistaken.

From a manufacturing standpoint, a Wafer costs X money. However many GOOD cpus you can fit on that wafer determines the cost per chip to AMD. Its all about size and manufacturability.

Say they charge $5000 for this (i think that was the rough price ~3 years ago). roughly 140 possible chips, this is where yield comes into play and jacks with the price. At 100%, thats $35 each. At 50% thats $70 each.

This is why AMD was paying GF for good cpus and not wafer starts last year. Their yield was soo horrible that GF ate the cost of bad cpus.

Make the chips smaller, you can fit a lot more on that wafer.

Fabs still charge $5000 for it, but you have a lot more potential product due to the small size.

 

[triny]

My crystal ball says buy AMD shares
I bought at $5.o5 my upcoming two computers will be free

look in the future I see AmD leveraging HSA past Intel cpu's
I see the IGP = to hd7770 by 2014
I see laptops playing the latest games well.
I see deep inroads into Intel 's profit margin
Why some people can't see is the same reason why some
people have to be poor.

 

[truegenius]

:lol:

 

[king smp]

My crystal ball says buy AMD shares
I bought at $5.o5 my upcoming two computers will be free

look in the future I see AmD leveraging HSA past Intel cpu's
I see the IGP = to hd7770 by 2014
I see laptops playing the latest games well.
I see deep inroads into Intel 's profit margin
Why some people can't see is the same reason why some
people have to be poor.

i actually agree to a certain extent
I think that AMD has a decent strategy right thinking long term
they need to make more a brand presence to the general consumer though
if they had a cool commercial with a Bulldozer running over intel computers and placed during sporting
events that would work
I will repeat myself
consumers dont understand IPC
they understand more cores and higher frequencies though
Intel proved that with the Pentium 4 with the higher frequency push
AMD back in Oct was about 5 a share
now last I looked it was around $9
and I think it will climb by end of the year