AMD Piledriver rumours ... and expert conjecture

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Reynod

Reynod

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Mar 26, 2007
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We have had several requests for a sticky on AMD's yet to be released Piledriver architecture ... so here it is.

I want to make a few things clear though.

Post a question relevant to the topic, or information about the topic, or it will be deleted.

Post any negative personal comments about another user ... and they will be deleted.

Post flame baiting comments about the blue, red and green team and they will be deleted.

Enjoy ...
 
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Too bad trinity will most likely be a HD6 series GPU uArch. I can understand as their pretty strapped for manpower right now. I don't expect to really see anything impressive until mid 2013, but can always be pleasantly surprised.
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AMD is tick tock now no tick or tock goes by without improvement like Intel
by 2015 excavator apu will be a dandy
Trinity cpu like intel's igp tick tock they get better
trinity acording amd piledriver is where power consumption goes down clocks go up
hsa with kaveri with gcn 8000 igp
 
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And now that the local haters have decided to hate on the APU's graphics core. I'm gonna show what the entire concept behind BD and Fusion is all about.

Notice that the APU is using a R8xx core.

Here is some info about the architecture of that core.

Terascale 2 Architecture

With the release of Cypress, the Terascale graphics engine architecture has been upgraded with twice the number of stream cores, texture units and ROP units compared to the RV770. The architecture of stream cores is largely unchanged, but adds support for DirectX 11/DirectCompute 11 capabilities with new instructions.[4] Also similar to RV770, four texture units are tied to 16 stream cores (each have five processing elements, making a total of 80 processing elements). This combination of is referred to as a SIMD core.

Unlike the predecessor, as DirectX 11 mandates full developer control over interpolation so dedicated interpolators were removed, relying instead on the SIMD cores. The stream cores can handle the higher rounding precision fused multiply–add (FMA) instruction in both single and double precision which increases precision over multiply–add (MAD) and is compliant to IEEE 754-2008 standard.[5] The instruction sum of absolute differences (SAD) has been natively added to the processors. This instruction can be used to greatly improve the performance of some processes, such as video encoding and transcoding. Each SIMD core is equipped with 32 kiB local data share and 8 kiB of L1 cache,[4] while all SIMD cores share 64 kiB global data share.
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Notice that the entire second part sounds a whole like like the internal components of a CPU's SIMD FPU.

That 3530MX APU happens to contain 400 of those shader cores which turns into 25 SIMD cores (16 shaders connected to four texture units is one SIMD core). Each of those is capable of a separate FMA / SIMD instruction.

That is why AMD is modularizing their CPUs. They plan to eventually remove their FPU entirely and use the Radeon Streams SIMD core as their FPU. Before they can do this they have lots of work to do, I'll give them another two to three years before they got it down.
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*** lano playing skyrim at ultra using igp only ***

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIX0J5HHL3s
 
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@palladin: i read somewhere that amd calls it trinity because of mixture of three different technologies: piledriver cpu core, hd6000 (vliw) igpu and gcn's video codec engine and 4k playback support. it's quite an achievement imo. they outdid llano with this (two techs - mobile athlon + radeon 5000 igpu).
@triny: amd will have to use a better imc to take better advantage of trinity's potential. bd's imc is not as good as sandy bridge's i.e. can't get the same amount of performance from the same type of ram e.g. ddr3 1333.
y'know all these talk about hsa and modularization and decoupled fpu has me intrigued. i guess i'll try to buy an amd apu in 2014, skipping all these intermediate stuff in 2012-2013. 😉
 
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Memory Controllers have been universally the same for the past five or six years now. Years ago they used to actually do benchmarks between them and the differences were in less then 2% when the same memory was used.

Demonstrate evidence that "BD's" memory controller is worse off then Thubans. All I've seen is that its caching is sh!t.

Really people taking the BD hate too far. You don't criticize every single component when only a few screw up.
 
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so you speak for the public now...?
Intel high end is also sold with nVidia so calm down..
and again you think AMD will deliver this and deliverer that, assumption.
I see you have learned forum etiquette..
and then again with what you think converted into what you believe is fact so you speak as so.

I think you need to go talk to someone..
what realm (fantasy world) do you live in.?
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LOL - I'm beginning to think Triny is mini-Sharikou. All he needs to do now is start using "frag" a lot in his AMD vs. Intel spouting off. As in "AMD gonna FRAG Intel!!!"..


 
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That is why AMD is modularizing their CPUs. They plan to eventually remove their FPU entirely and use the Radeon Streams SIMD core as their FPU.
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Which would be a disaster performance wise.

Again, if a CPU can only handle 2 instructions per core [lets assume AMD sticks with its module approach for this discussion], what good does 400 seperate SIMD cores do? Now, instead of one strong FPU, you have 400 weaker ones, and CPU FP performance WILL suffer as a result.

Theres a reason why massive FP datasets [rendering, and more recently encoding] have moved to the GPU, but normal FP processing has remained CPU bound.

This is the same exact reason why I called Larabee DOA from the start: CPU's are good at doing one thing at a time REALLY quickly, and rapidly swapping between tasks. GPU's are good at doing lots of simple math equations at the same time, but stink royally on equations that can't make use of its many individual FPU units [shaders]. Any attempt to mix the two will lead to server performance degregation, for reasons that should be fairly obvious.
 
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No one has ever said Intel wasn't behind. Everyone knows that. I think that people are just excited to see intel is finally putting up somewhat of a fight on the IGP side.
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Yes you have said that just not in so many words. Your saying that Intel's Haswell being able to compete with the Radeon GPU inside Trinity in the graphics department. Intel would need to jump forward several years in their development to compete with what ATI has ~now~. Much less what ATI will have in four years.

And the APUs IGP is not just a shrunk down Radeon core. It doesn't have the same memory controller and is usually closked lower to lower thermals and power usage. They rely on the CPUs IMC and DDR3, which is much much slower than GDDR.
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Yes they are, period.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AMD_Fusion#.22Llano.22_.2832.C2.A0nm.29_2

Sabine used a HD5x series GPU with 400 shader units, 20 texture mapping units and 8 render units. They operate at 400~444MHZ and use 128-bit DDR3-1333/1600 memory.

This is the architecture a redwood series GPU.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evergreen_%28GPU_family%29

The redwood's memory interface can accept DDR2/DDR3, the HD5450 was often equipped with it.

AMD combined the GPU and CPU external memory interface into a single unit. Its basically a HD5570 down-clocked to 400~444 Mhz and equipped with DDR3 memory instead of GDDR5.

You can hate on the BD uarch all day, but don't even try to say that AMD didn't use ATI's Radeon GPU.
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You stated it was a shrunk down Radeon core. That implies its the exact same as a discrete. I just stated its not the exact same thing. It uses the SMIDs, of course. But its not the exact same as a discrete Radeon. Else it would perform the exact same with the same SMIDs, or possibly same clock speed. Of course same clock speed is not possible for reasons of thermals.

*** lano playing skyrim at ultra using igp only ***

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIX0J5HHL3s
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Awesome. I can play Skyrim on a 10 inch NetBook.

Honestly, Skyrim, while I love it, is not that major of a game benchmark. Its using a modified version of the Oblivion engine so its not that taxing, except with AA and AF on for some setups.

No one ever said AMDs IGPs were not impressive. I personally state anything pre HD3000 is rubbish from Intel and should never be used for anything more than business use. But it seems people here just want AMD to do well and Intel to fail. Honestly, I don't know why as nVidia is not really in the chipset business and their IGPs are pure crap now. If AMD doesn't have someone to push them, don't you think they will just do the same thing you think Intel would do? Small upgrades with big price tags?

Or do you still think AMD loves you personally even after they put the HD7970 out at $550? I always say if AMD has the chance to price things higher, they will. I guess people still don't see that.
 
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You stated it was a shrunk down Radeon core. That implies its the exact same as a discrete. I just stated its not the exact same thing. It uses the SMIDs, of course. But its not the exact same as a discrete Radeon. Else it would perform the exact same with the same SMIDs, or possibly same clock speed. Of course same clock speed is not possible for reasons of thermals.



Awesome. I can play Skyrim on a 10 inch NetBook.

Honestly, Skyrim, while I love it, is not that major of a game benchmark. Its using a modified version of the Oblivion engine so its not that taxing, except with AA and AF on for some setups.

No one ever said AMDs IGPs were not impressive. I personally state anything pre HD3000 is rubbish from Intel and should never be used for anything more than business use. But it seems people here just want AMD to do well and Intel to fail. Honestly, I don't know why as nVidia is not really in the chipset business and their IGPs are pure crap now. If AMD doesn't have someone to push them, don't you think they will just do the same thing you think Intel would do? Small upgrades with big price tags?

Or do you still think AMD loves you personally even after they put the HD7970 out at $550? I always say if AMD has the chance to price things higher, they will. I guess people still don't see that.
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I believe that is called business. AMD does it, Intel does it, Microsoft does it, Nvidia does it, Apple does it.

I really didn't know that Economics was so difficult to understand, I guess i am just a prodigy. 😛
 
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I believe that is called business. AMD does it, Intel does it, Microsoft does it, Nvidia does it, Apple does it.

I really didn't know that Economics was so difficult to understand, I guess i am just a prodigy. 😛
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I wasn't trying to show off amd or lano just showing that Intel will need more time ,it isn't fair to expect intel to catch up with IB.

 
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Yukon Jack Baby!
100 proof of fine liquor
use to love that stuff
in a tumbler on the rocks

Back on topic
I think that in the long run that AMD is making the right moves
they cant compete in a straight up performance desktop CPU battle
what it would cost in R&D would nearly bankrupt them
so they are finding their niche markets where they can compete
mobile and budget OEM towers that dont need discrete GPUs to handle what the general public needs them to do (browse,email,online game playing etc)
they even have a good marketing position with "more cores" and "more ghz"
which will appeal to the general computer user
even the names like Bulldozer can be used well in commercials like I stated before
especially if they shift their R&D budget over to advertising
also watch out for ARM
could very well be a player in the desktop arena a few years from now
x86 is still viable but there will be a day when it is replaced in the future
just the way that the tech world goes
x86 has probably lasted longer than anybody at IBM during the 8086/8088 days ever imagined it
IMHO AMD never has and can never overtake Intel in the CPU market
I still remember the days of PC compatible CPU makers and how almost all of them are gone or swallowed up
AMD serves a purpose for Intel due to the US government and monopoly restrictions
Intel needs to have a competitor
they forgot about that with their OEM manipulations and payed a big price for it
now if ARM CPU makers become a major factor then AMD is not needed anymore
this is all my opinion
I could be wrong.....

 
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...Meanwhile, Advanced Micro Devices Inc. (AMD) posted a 45 percent increase in shipments of its heterogeneous processor
unit shipments for desktops, JPR said. But, like Intel, AMD's overall shipments were down 3 percent for the quarter because of
declining notebook sales, the firm said."
120222_JPR_gpu1.jpg

http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4236811/GPU-shipments-declined-again-in-Q4
 
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...Meanwhile, Advanced Micro Devices Inc. (AMD) posted a 45 percent increase in shipments of its heterogeneous processor
unit shipments for desktops, JPR said. But, like Intel, AMD's overall shipments were down 3 percent for the quarter because of
declining notebook sales, the firm said."
http://www.eetimes.com/ContentEETimes/Images/120222_JPR_gpu1.jpg
http://www.eetimes.com/electronics-news/4236811/GPU-shipments-declined-again-in-Q4
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The recession in USA will put a damper on sales further.
 
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He wasn't talking about Intels Atom with PowerVR vs AMDs whatever codename tablet APU. He was saying that AMDs tablet APU would be able to take on and beat Ivy Bridges HD4000 IGP. Atom is using PowerVR but Ivy bridge is using a in house Intel designed GPU. Sandy bridge already is equal to or better than a HD5450. The APU for tablets from AMD is using the same amount of SPUs as a HD5450, possibly VLIW. But we have to remember that its not equal to a HD5450 as it wont have GDDR3, it will use LPDDR2 like most tablets are right now in order to get better battery life and right now LPDDR2 is not nearly as fast as GDDR3 is not to mention its normally single channel, not even dual.

If anything that will be based on their E series APUs.

So if you take that into account, it will be weaker than a HD5450.

I don't doubt it will be faster than current PowerVR. Faster than the quad core PowerVR in the PS Vita? I don't think it will be as thats a monster, but also kills battery (the PSP Vita gets about 2 hours battery life gaming). Faster than HD4000? No I don't think it will be.

But thats just based on the specs and info we have. We will see when it comes out.

You have to remember that with Triny, anything Intel does GPU wise is crap even though Intel is showing great promise. I want Intel to push AMDs IGP division. That means better stuff for us much faster.



Right now a HD3000 IGP is about equal to or better than a HD5450. IB will nearly double the performance, which llano is double the performance of HD3000 right now in gaming only, not CPU.

How is nVidia doing badly again? The GTX460 is still a top selling GPU and the 560 is selling very well and has better performance than a equally priced ATI GPU. And I only buy ATI/AMD GPUs as I prefer CCC over nForce.

While its not the total, the Steam HW Survey is a good indication of where gamers are. According tho this nVidia has 57% of all GPUs:

http://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey

If nVidia was doing poorly, I doubt they would be that high.

Haswells top end will have 40 total EUs, the GT3. If it scaled perfectly it would be 3x faster than IB. But we shall see.



No one has ever said Intel wasn't behind. Everyone knows that. I think that people are just excited to see intel is finally putting up somewhat of a fight on the IGP side.

And the APUs IGP is not just a shrunk down Radeon core. It doesn't have the same memory controller and is usually closked lower to lower thermals and power usage. They rely on the CPUs IMC and DDR3, which is much much slower than GDDR.
Click to expand...

I will say it once more provide some links that will convince me of Intel's IGP going to be better performance wise than AMD's IGP. When it comes to E Series and Llano the problem with the IGP at this time is mainly down to low clocks and more importantly there is bandwidth issues that leave the IGP starved so they underpeform for their unit counts. As for Intel's IGP their designs have traditionally been licensed PowerVR designs and not just the Atom. If their 4K series IGP is in house then provide the links.
 
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It is also a slow growth rate. As long as AMD makes money, they will be in the game...
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AMD can afford to lose money provided they managed to capture the market and make up their loses later. Basically the same strategy that many Asian companies had done in the 90s at a time when American made LCD panels were still competitive. In order to gain the market they sold the panels below manufacturing cost and made exclusive deals with Dell, HP, and Compaq to drive others out of the oem channels. In the end look at it now, almost all the panels are made in China and South Korea for next to nothing. They took the risk and reaped massive profits.
 
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Today nvida is on the ropes mabe tomorrow they will be ready to compete
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NVidia is actually in a much better situation than AMD right now.
They have 3 billion in cash, almost no debt, and double the profit margins.

AMD is on the ropes with more debt than cash. They need Trinity to succeed in a big way.
 
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i guess amd's growth mostly came from their apu sales. looks like most of it came from intel's share. :)
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I heard AMD sold a lot of apu in China ,total sales so far exceeds 30 million apu potential for many of them to upgrade to trinity


AMD probably will never overtake Intel but the stakes are especially high these days when a recession threatens to decimate everyone's sales ,should AMD catch Intel sleeping it could cost Intel big.The bigger the company the harder they fall.
A 40% drop in sales at Intel is catastrophic .a combination of recession and AMD taking sales away could be a down right catastrophe.
Intel is in panic mode trying to get dx11 on a better igp the race is against the clock, tick ,tock.
 
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NVidia is actually in a much better situation than AMD right now.
They have 3 billion in cash, almost no debt, and double the profit margins.

AMD is on the ropes with more debt than cash. They need Trinity to succeed in a big way.
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not saying AMD isn't in trouble but nvidia is in a bad spot. They need to get tegra sales up or else they will be in the same boat as AMD.
 
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