Agreed, AMD can't really be held accountable for the R600, but there will be hell to pay if they pull this crap with the R700 since AMD will have full responsibility for that one! Still, it would be advantageous NOT to delay the R600 again, but I'm betting they will all the same.
rammedstein
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- Jun 5, 2006
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The R600 is partly takign so long because it will be the technical base for the R700 too... also, i was thinking, if you substituted a R600 into this
http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/10/17/game_on_with_the_ultimate_x9_from_abs_computers/
setup it proves that crossfire is well capable, if not better than Sli, and if the R600 is better than the 8800GTX if you substitute it in it will totally pwn the 8800GTX in sli, lol. I also think that the R700 will take less time to be produced then R600 by quite some time as they will be more experienced in the process, it will be cheaper and the will be using the same equiptment as their desktop processors. Wow, no one can tell im a fan boy, and im quite poissed off at the push-back.
http://www.tomshardware.com/2006/10/17/game_on_with_the_ultimate_x9_from_abs_computers/
setup it proves that crossfire is well capable, if not better than Sli, and if the R600 is better than the 8800GTX if you substitute it in it will totally pwn the 8800GTX in sli, lol. I also think that the R700 will take less time to be produced then R600 by quite some time as they will be more experienced in the process, it will be cheaper and the will be using the same equiptment as their desktop processors. Wow, no one can tell im a fan boy, and im quite poissed off at the push-back.
Twisted_Sister
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For all those hyping R700... there is a lot of talking out of both sides of the mouth here.
Here's what I hear:
1) r600 is late, but the product is overall fine because it takes 2 years to develop
OK let's buy that argument for a second.
2) R700 - the first AMD integrated card, is the one to look foward too
The AMD merger took place in Oct 2006... add 2 years boys -- Q4'2008
Simplistic, yes. Now I know many of you are going to say "but they have been working on it since before the merger" - to which I say - have YOU ever been in a merger???
Work craaaaaawls, turnover is high, priorities change, communication between groups takes time to establish - if ATI couldn't release r600 on time... their issues with r700 will be compounded. Especially since you're layering on the complexities of technology integration. Believe me Q4'2008 is being generous.
And please stop trying to spin the delay as "market timing"... it's not, it's a blunder. geesh.
I just want the darn cards out already!
Here's what I hear:
1) r600 is late, but the product is overall fine because it takes 2 years to develop
OK let's buy that argument for a second.
2) R700 - the first AMD integrated card, is the one to look foward too
The AMD merger took place in Oct 2006... add 2 years boys -- Q4'2008
Simplistic, yes. Now I know many of you are going to say "but they have been working on it since before the merger" - to which I say - have YOU ever been in a merger???
Work craaaaaawls, turnover is high, priorities change, communication between groups takes time to establish - if ATI couldn't release r600 on time... their issues with r700 will be compounded. Especially since you're layering on the complexities of technology integration. Believe me Q4'2008 is being generous.
And please stop trying to spin the delay as "market timing"... it's not, it's a blunder. geesh.
I just want the darn cards out already!
clue69less
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I've been through two. Neither was particularly successful nor enjoyable. I hope AMD and ATI do much better.
Yup, the R600 is just another screwup....worse than the R520, at least in terms of delays. As far as performance goes...well we'll have to wait and see. Everybody now....We're not gonna take it.....NO, we ain't gonna take it...we're not gonna take it......anymoooooore!
At least when software is delayed, you can understand it, but then there are extremes like DNF which is no excuse. Speaking of DNF, I really don't think it will ever be released. I really don't know how 3dr stays in business. They release what...1 game a year...at most...heh.
Anyway I hear that fat lady warming up right now....and it doesn't sound pretty!
TheGreatGrapeApe
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Not sure about that, R600 was expected last Summer, now coming out in April/May. R520 was expected for Xmas season, and came out the following Xmas sale period. So they're about tied if not the R600 being a 1-2 month less delay.
Uh, yeah; cause hitting cut/paste to fix a coding error is so much more trouble than re-spining and re-testing hardware. :roll:
Looking through lines of code for mistakes is the same as designing the hard, but fixing the mistakes is infinitely more difficult in hardware. And gettting everything to work together well equally so.
Not sure about that, R600 was expected last Summer, now coming out in April/May. R520 was expected for Xmas season, and came out the following Xmas sale period. So they're about tied if not the R600 being a 1-2 month less delay.
Uh, yeah; cause hitting cut/paste to fix a coding error is so much more trouble than re-spining and re-testing hardware. :roll:
Looking through lines of code for mistakes is the same as designing the hard, but fixing the mistakes is infinitely more difficult in hardware. And gettting everything to work together well equally so.
I thought the R520 was only about 5 months late and the R600 was scheduled for around August. The thing about the R600 that's so frustrating is hearing and official statement coming from the President of AMD stating that the R600 would be released in the 1st Qtr of this year FOR SURE. When you hear something like that, you start to feel more secure because hey, the president of the company publicly made that statement....the card has to be done now right. They never said anything about respinning the card, but I do think they've done it again. How many respins is this now for the R600?
No, respinning hardware is more tedious and difficult than finding bad code in software...sure, but ATi seems to pro's at delays. I know HL2 was delayed around a year but gfx companies have almost always stuck to a 6-month cycle, but ATi seems to have their own cycle. That would probably be ok if the end result meant a card that totally dominated the competition, but if memory serves, the end result (at least with the R520) pretty much meant a card of equal performance...which begs the question...why does it take ATi so much longer to release a card than Nvidia does? ATi has more experience than Nvidia...so what gives?
TheGreatGrapeApe
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Well they rarey announce respins, that info leaks out usually either from middle-men or from people testing the latest hardware. Supposedly the final candidate R600 is A13 which is the one they have been talking about since late December. It also means it would be spin #5 or 6 according the the list sofar. A00 (which is most of the picture out there sofar), A01, not sure about an A10, then for sure A11, A12 and A13. Here Hexus talks of the A13 just before Xmas;
http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=7437
I have heard of an A15 spin, but not sure what that is if the rumours of final versions being A13 is correct.
I was being generous in saying it would be equal. Although really, both can have non-obvious things, like the R520's 3rd party (NOT ATI's) memory problem, or a line of code that points to or look for input from nowhere. Either way I won't deny both can be problematic with varying level of difficulty. However when you find the problem it's tougher to fix because you run it through so many more stages to get a chance to test it again.
6mth cycle? Since when? 18 month cycle is more like it. This isn't a minor refresh we're talking about.
Only at the time of launch. Once mature drivers and the demanding games came out the X1800XT beat the GF7800GTX in most situations by a good margin, and even compared to the GTX-512 refresh it does better in the vast majority of situations.
What like the R580? The X1900 made it to market before the GF7900, so how true is that statement. Also the GF6800 didn't get replaced for 2+ years, IMO that's a good thing for nV, you seem to think otherwise. But either way your statement has no basis. Both release quick/slow , early/late. So by your thinkng is the G70 an 'early to market product', or just a very late NV47/48?
Experience doesn't account for much, just like 3Dfx and Matrox got knocked out of the gaming market. Most important thing is to be profitable. Which isn't the most important thing to us, unless you own stock in one of the big 3.
Mach5Motorsport
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Well they rarey announce respins, that info leaks out usually either from middle-men or from people testing the latest hardware. Supposedly the final candidate R600 is A13 which is the one they have been talking about since late December. It also means it would be spin #5 or 6 according the the list sofar. A00 (which is most of the picture out there sofar), A01, not sure about an A10, then for sure A11, A12 and A13. Here Hexus talks of the A13 just before Xmas;
http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=7437
I have heard of an A15 spin, but not sure what that is if the rumours of final versions being A13 is correct.
I was being generous in saying it would be equal. Although really, both can have non-obvious things, like the R520's 3rd party (NOT ATI's) memory problem, or a line of code that points to or look for input from nowhere. Either way I won't deny both can be problematic with varying level of difficulty. However when you find the problem it's tougher to fix because you run it through so many more stages to get a chance to test it again.
6mth cycle? Since when? 18 month cycle is more like it. This isn't a minor refresh we're talking about.
Only at the time of launch. Once mature drivers and the demanding games came out the X1800XT beat the GF7800GTX in most situations by a good margin, and even compared to the GTX-512 refresh it does better in the vast majority of situations.
What like the R580? The X1900 made it to market before the GF7900, so how true is that statement. Also the GF6800 didn't get replaced for 2+ years, IMO that's a good thing for nV, you seem to think otherwise. But either way your statement has no basis. Both release quick/slow , early/late. So by your thinkng is the G70 an 'early to market product', or just a very late NV47/48?
Experience doesn't account for much, just like 3Dfx and Matrox got knocked out of the gaming market. Most important thing is to be profitable. Which isn't the most important thing to us, unless you own stock in one of the big 3.
It's not an 18 month cycle...just look at when the 7900 came out and then the 7950 and then the X1900 and then the X1950. ATi's cycle seems longer than Nvidia's but it's generally around 6 months per release for all-new cards including refreshes as well.
As far as the quick release of the R580, I think that was a bit of a fluke. I think the R580 was what ATi had originally wanted the R520 to be, but since the R520 was so late, they built a sort of hybrid card from the R400 series combined with the R500 series until they could get the card they actually wanted to be released.
Yes, the R600 is all new architecture and those generally take more time to release than a refresh but again, Nvidia seems to be able to release cards every 6 months or very close to that....so why can't ATi? Nvidia used to have problems releasing cards on-time as well but they learned from their mistakes. Hopefully AMD will get ATi back on track. The fact that the R600 is all new cuts ATi some slack, but come on....if Nvidia can release all new architecture, then so can ATi. Like I've said before...this isn't the first time ATi's done this...they should know better. Also as I've said before, I think the reason ATi keeps on having to issue out delays is because they are trying to develop a supercard. Hey, there's nothing wrong with that...more power to them, but if they can't do it on time, then don't do it, but actually if they can actually do it, that can make people forget the delays. The problem here is, that in order for the R600 to be a supercard, it needs to decimate the G81 and while there are no official benches from either company...I don't see the R600 doing that.
If it does happen to do that, then I'll take back everything I've said here about the R600 being a failure if it isn't. It's funny...in the Rage3d forums, I predicted, back before the R520 was released back in '05, that I bet that in about two years, ATi will be having the same problems with the R600 and lo and behold, it's true. I have to admit, part of me thought, oh no....ATi will learn it's lesson with the R520 but it's pretty obvious that they haven't. I also have to wonder if ATi is gonna pull another R520/R580 fiasco and release a quick refresh in 2 months if the R600 isn't the card it should be. Honestly though, on paper the R600 looks like it should destroy everything in it's path and that's what everyone was saying up until about a month ago. I wonder what's changed since then? I guess some people have actually learned the truth. If it's not the card that it was hyped to be, then I want to know what's been taking so long. This is all conjecture of course but people must have seen the performance of the R600 because all of sudden I don't hear anything from the ATi stating how awesome the R600 is, it's more focus on the other R6xx parts instead....why is that? Could it be that ATi was hyping the R600 just like they did with the R520? Let's hope not because ATi got sued for artificially inflating the market with the R520 when it was a noshow. Anyway I just hope it's a good card that's competitive with the G81, but I'm betting the R600 is delayed at least one more time....
TheGreatGrapeApe
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It's not an 18 month cycle...just look at when the 7900 came out and then the 7950 and then the X1900 and then the X1950. ATi's cycle seems longer than Nvidia's but it's generally around 6 months per release for all-new cards including refreshes as well.
You're confusing a clock push refresh with a product cycle. Product cycle is around 18 months.
You don't know what you're talking about. Go do some research, the guessing time is for when you don't have information, not after the fact.
Once again, you don't know what you're talking about.
They didn't learn squat and you don't know what you're talking about, once again. The nV47/48 was delayed and became the GF7800, the G80 was delay from last springs launch. So what did they learn?
The GF7800 launch made people think that they'd learned not to paper-launch, and then subsequent launches proved that not to be the case, same for ATi.
nVidia can release architecture late, just like ATi. So I don't see your point, other than proving once again, you don't know this industry at all.
Right so because they are delayed scrap the product? Ok , so no GF6800, no X800, no GF7800, no X1800, and no G80. Wow, cool that leave us back to the old GF4 vs R9700 as our cards. Can't do it by May 1st, scrap the whole thing! Great! :roll:
Obviously because you've obviously forgotten the G80 delays already.
Why not? And who needs to decimate the G81? Basing that on some type of fact or at least well thought out reasoning? You seem to like to rely on the past of the market, like those who said the X1800 wasn't going to be able to reply to nV's reply, yet it did very well again the mythical GTX-512 which never really arrived in numbers.
Wow the funny part is you didn't predict the other delays. :roll:
Right, as if you have any truth to provide. What has changed is that the rumours and FUD have taken place of what little solid information was out there. That you think you know the facts of an as yet unreleased product, yet you're ignorant of the facts of long released products. I doubt your know the truth about any of this.
Riigght... :roll:
You're going to have to post a solid link for that statement, because being an economist, I'd like to know what part of 'artificially inflating the market' a delayed product would come under. The DOJ's FUD&HYPE division?
I'd take that bet, but I doubt you have anything worthwhile to offer as a wager. Right now AMD's going for the mega launch, there's little chance it'll be delayed from here out because there's no set date at this point other than Q2, which is a 3mth period that hasn't even arrived yet.
So unless you have something more concrete, then I'll just leave it to the people who've gottent their hands on them and the solid facts coming from there.
It's not an 18 month cycle...just look at when the 7900 came out and then the 7950 and then the X1900 and then the X1950. ATi's cycle seems longer than Nvidia's but it's generally around 6 months per release for all-new cards including refreshes as well.
You're confusing a clock push refresh with a product cycle. Product cycle is around 18 months.
You don't know what you're talking about. Go do some research, the guessing time is for when you don't have information, not after the fact.
Once again, you don't know what you're talking about.
They didn't learn squat and you don't know what you're talking about, once again. The nV47/48 was delayed and became the GF7800, the G80 was delay from last springs launch. So what did they learn?
The GF7800 launch made people think that they'd learned not to paper-launch, and then subsequent launches proved that not to be the case, same for ATi.
nVidia can release architecture late, just like ATi. So I don't see your point, other than proving once again, you don't know this industry at all.
Right so because they are delayed scrap the product? Ok , so no GF6800, no X800, no GF7800, no X1800, and no G80. Wow, cool that leave us back to the old GF4 vs R9700 as our cards. Can't do it by May 1st, scrap the whole thing! Great! :roll:
Obviously because you've obviously forgotten the G80 delays already.
Why not? And who needs to decimate the G81? Basing that on some type of fact or at least well thought out reasoning? You seem to like to rely on the past of the market, like those who said the X1800 wasn't going to be able to reply to nV's reply, yet it did very well again the mythical GTX-512 which never really arrived in numbers.
Wow the funny part is you didn't predict the other delays. :roll:
Right, as if you have any truth to provide. What has changed is that the rumours and FUD have taken place of what little solid information was out there. That you think you know the facts of an as yet unreleased product, yet you're ignorant of the facts of long released products. I doubt your know the truth about any of this.
Riigght... :roll:
You're going to have to post a solid link for that statement, because being an economist, I'd like to know what part of 'artificially inflating the market' a delayed product would come under. The DOJ's FUD&HYPE division?
I'd take that bet, but I doubt you have anything worthwhile to offer as a wager. Right now AMD's going for the mega launch, there's little chance it'll be delayed from here out because there's no set date at this point other than Q2, which is a 3mth period that hasn't even arrived yet.
So unless you have something more concrete, then I'll just leave it to the people who've gottent their hands on them and the solid facts coming from there.
The only response I'm going to say is you don't really care if there are facts or not. You just want to argue...sorry but I'm done. I have stated facts, but you don't seem to care, you just want to argue. I don't consider something being a month late is a major delay. So exactly how many months late was the G80? The R600 was scheduled to be released at the same time but is it here now? Now I'm hearing reports from people at Rage3D that it could be delayed again until June. If it's true, how's that for a prediction. I can't say for sure since June's not here yet but I bet it is. Anyway you can think what you want to think. The bottom line is Nvidia didn't blow a product cycle and ATi has....I don't care what you say, you can't deny that!
I don't really know if the R600 is going to be some supercard, but I doubt it, but we'll find out whenever it's released. The only think I know for sure is that I'll be getting an 8800 GTX in the next couple weeks (along with my new C2D system I'm building) and I'll be enjoying it while people still wait for the R600 to only God knows when. Then I'll be upgrading my 8800 GTX and use eVGA's Step Up program to get an 8900 GTX which will likely beat the R600, so either way, I win.
I don't know if you want an R600 or not, but if so, good luck, you'll need it, but if not, I'd recommend doing the same thing I'm gonna do because it's a win/win situation, but with ATi, it's a lose/lose with them. Have fun... :twisted:
TheGreatGrapeApe
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You haven't stated facts, and that's why you think my responses are just arguments because you don't remember the facts when making your claims, the responsability is yours.
The G80 was scheduled for last spring, so that's 6 months, not 1 month like you say. Heck the second delay was from back to school period to the Nov launch, not the first delay. Both companies had a bunch of respins (heck the G80 launched with a few issues and had to be fixed in transit with a swap out [new for old]). So this idea that nV is immune to delays is ridiculous.
What does that have to do with your statements that nV has learned, and don't delay? I didn't say the R600 wasn't delayed nor that it wasn't delayed longer, but you came up with the theory that ATi had done something nV hadn't and that if you're late then don't launch at all. BTW, you make your statements before you even know what the launch date is. The R600 demoed at CeBit, so that portion is on time. The thing you still don't have is a hard announced 'THIS IS THE DAY WE LAUNCH/SELL the R600 !!" which you never had before.
You keep saying that you bet, but you have nothing to bet. Based on your limited knowledge of the past, I don't give any credability to your predictions.
A product cycle is about 18 months long like I said, you're wrong. And whether or not nV blew a product cycle depends on how you look at it, since the NV47/48 was delayed for over a year, and considering that this is only now that the NV50/G80 is here, how behind schedule is that compared to when they were Roadmaped? Did they omit the NV50 hybrid and replace it with what is now the G80? That would be blowing the product cycle as you say, but not in a way anyone noticed. Just like the R400 being replaced by the R420 and the original R400 becoming the basis for the R500/Xenos instead.
Win? And now the true motivation for your post comes to the fore, it has nothing to do with reality, you just need something to justify and reasure yourself for your purchase. It's based on your hopes and dreams for your card, not facts. Since that's the case you better also hope that the GF8900 isn't delayed too, because otherwise your 90 days is going to run out on you.
No I'm a laptop guy, I have no pony in this race, which is exactly why I don't care who wins and loses, but I also don't speculate ontop of rumour as A vs B; only what A means to A and what B means to B. I'll post rumours about the G80, but only if they are to benefit people, your bashing someone based on rumours.
Believe me I could tear your prized GF8800 limb from limb with rumours, just like I could the R600, the intels, and S3 and SIS' products. However, I don't, because WTF is the point other than to FUD and be a Fanboi?
I think the GF8800 is great I recommend it alot, but it has nothing to do with the R600 itself. I don't doubt people will and have bought the GF8800 because waiting for the R600 is too long, but that has nothing to do with what you brought up.
You've posted nothing substantial to back up your bashing. At least others are criticizing for valid reasons which I agree with for the most part, you on the other hand are making things up to bash one company because you're chosing the other.
You haven't stated facts, and that's why you think my responses are just arguments because you don't remember the facts when making your claims, the responsability is yours.
The G80 was scheduled for last spring, so that's 6 months, not 1 month like you say. Heck the second delay was from back to school period to the Nov launch, not the first delay. Both companies had a bunch of respins (heck the G80 launched with a few issues and had to be fixed in transit with a swap out [new for old]). So this idea that nV is immune to delays is ridiculous.
What does that have to do with your statements that nV has learned, and don't delay? I didn't say the R600 wasn't delayed nor that it wasn't delayed longer, but you came up with the theory that ATi had done something nV hadn't and that if you're late then don't launch at all. BTW, you make your statements before you even know what the launch date is. The R600 demoed at CeBit, so that portion is on time. The thing you still don't have is a hard announced 'THIS IS THE DAY WE LAUNCH/SELL the R600 !!" which you never had before.
You keep saying that you bet, but you have nothing to bet. Based on your limited knowledge of the past, I don't give any credability to your predictions.
A product cycle is about 18 months long like I said, you're wrong. And whether or not nV blew a product cycle depends on how you look at it, since the NV47/48 was delayed for over a year, and considering that this is only now that the NV50/G80 is here, how behind schedule is that compared to when they were Roadmaped? Did they omit the NV50 hybrid and replace it with what is now the G80? That would be blowing the product cycle as you say, but not in a way anyone noticed. Just like the R400 being replaced by the R420 and the original R400 becoming the basis for the R500/Xenos instead.
Win? And now the true motivation for your post comes to the fore, it has nothing to do with reality, you just need something to justify and reasure yourself for your purchase. It's based on your hopes and dreams for your card, not facts. Since that's the case you better also hope that the GF8900 isn't delayed too, because otherwise your 90 days is going to run out on you.
No I'm a laptop guy, I have no pony in this race, which is exactly why I don't care who wins and loses, but I also don't speculate ontop of rumour as A vs B; only what A means to A and what B means to B. I'll post rumours about the G80, but only if they are to benefit people, your bashing someone based on rumours.
Believe me I could tear your prized GF8800 limb from limb with rumours, just like I could the R600, the intels, and S3 and SIS' products. However, I don't, because WTF is the point other than to FUD and be a Fanboi?
I think the GF8800 is great I recommend it alot, but it has nothing to do with the R600 itself. I don't doubt people will and have bought the GF8800 because waiting for the R600 is too long, but that has nothing to do with what you brought up.
You've posted nothing substantial to back up your bashing. At least others are criticizing for valid reasons which I agree with for the most part, you on the other hand are making things up to bash one company because you're chosing the other.
You want facts do ya? GeForce 7950 GX2 released June 5, 2006 http://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_31673.html
GeForce 8800 GTX released November 8th 2006 http://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_37234.html
Now I'm pretty bad with Mathematics but I believe that's 5 months, not 18! Now you were saying that I didn't have any FACTS to back up what I was saying? OK, then where's your facts. I see that I've put hard facts down and you keep criticizing me, but I've yet to see any facts from you! Put up or SHUT UP! :roll:
Well at least they aren't releasing cards for benchmarking 4-6 months before it's available to buy like they were a few years ago. That and only have a few cards available on the market so it was technically "released" but you couldn't buy one if you wanted to. That was in my eyes way more annoying than a production delay as in the R600.
Was AMD's acquisition of ATI a factor in the delay of the R600. I'd hate for that to be the case because it should have been mainly avoidable, but two large companies merging management and strategies may have slowed things down.
In any event, ATI's delay I'm sure has smashed their market share. If the 600 is available to buy mid May and is only 5-10% faster then I think they're hooped. If it's 20-25% faster then they may have a few months to recover before nvidia answers.
Siththgers "win-win" strategy is way great way to go if you can afford it. No worries for him. Others with limited budgets who upgrade every 3 years have to make sure to make the right decision at the right time. I was looking forward to a Feb/March release, for both price drops and possible performance increase. I should be able to hold out until May so see what the 600 offers us as my current setup can still hold its own. If not then 8800GTS it is.
-Deuce-
Was AMD's acquisition of ATI a factor in the delay of the R600. I'd hate for that to be the case because it should have been mainly avoidable, but two large companies merging management and strategies may have slowed things down.
In any event, ATI's delay I'm sure has smashed their market share. If the 600 is available to buy mid May and is only 5-10% faster then I think they're hooped. If it's 20-25% faster then they may have a few months to recover before nvidia answers.
Siththgers "win-win" strategy is way great way to go if you can afford it. No worries for him. Others with limited budgets who upgrade every 3 years have to make sure to make the right decision at the right time. I was looking forward to a Feb/March release, for both price drops and possible performance increase. I should be able to hold out until May so see what the 600 offers us as my current setup can still hold its own. If not then 8800GTS it is.
-Deuce-
In my opinion, a product cycle is generation to generation. Compare release dates of the FX-5900 to the 6800 to the 7800 to the 8800. You can't compare the ass end of the 7800 series to the start of the 8800 series. I really don't know if it's 18 months, but I bet it's a lot longer than 5. I'm interested in knowing if someone can dig it up.
Then again if you are just talking about bringing a product to market, then yeah didn't nvidia tell investors they'd be on a 6 month release cycle a couple years back? But that's just for marketing becuase many of the cards aren't new technology, they just bump the clock up and add a new heat sink or whatever.
http://www.nvidia.com/page/desktop.html#gaming
-Deuce-
Yeah I hated Nvidia's "Paper Launches" as they called them; although I didn't hate them as much as ATI's delays because at least with a Paper Launch, the company usually divulged full specs and benches of the card and also review sites could release reviews as well. With the R600, you get nothing except speculation and that's about it. What's more is that now I've been hearing rumors that the R600 might be released as early as March 30 and as late as June now. I'd bet more on June than March to be sure! In any case, the point is we just don't know and I'm not even sure if ATi could really tell you either.
I don't believe the merger has any effect on the release date and in fact it might have been better for it. Had it not been for AMD, the R600 might not show up until Christmas or later...who knows.
My strategy isn't as expensive as it sounds. As I've said before with eVGA, say you buy an 8800 GTX now for say $550. Then in a month or two the 8900 GTX comes out and you want to use eVGA's Step Up program. All you have to do is pay the difference for the card. Say the 8900 GTX is $600, so all you have to do is pay eVGA $50 plus shipping and send the 8800 GTX plus a bar code from the box and a copy of your receipt and that's it. Of course you have to enter the serial and model number into their site and register for the Step Up too but it's all pretty simple actually.
I've used their program once when I stepped up from a GeForce 7800 GTX to my current GeForce 7800 GTX 512 and was very pleased with them.
It's funny...the last two upgrades...that is the last one in 2005 and this one currently, both times I've wanted to get an ATi card and both times ATi has screwed the consumers. At least with the previous card, I think I ended up with the better card as my 7800 GTX 512 was better than the Radeon X1800 XTX. I'm sure some people will dispute that but if you look at the benches, you'll see why the 512 was the better card. Now around 2 months later the X1900 XTX was released and that is clearly a better card than the 512 but not the X1800 XTX. Here we are again 2 years later and ATi's doing the same thing and despite what the GrapeApe says Nvidia's been releasing cards every six months (for very close to that) since the NV40 (6800).
Ya know it's entirely possible that the R600 is faster than both the G80 (which is to be expected) and the G81 but most professional people seem to think otherwise and from what I've read about ATi's thoughts on the current state of the R600 seem to be displeased with it's performance against even the G80. I'd post a link but I can't find it anymore, it was listed at the new site fudzilla.com. I know many people don't like Fudo but I've found him to be a pretty trustworthy source and when something is in question, he says so. In any case, all of this is just conjecture anyway as there is nothing official from ATi. Anyway even if the R600 turns out to be faster than the G81 (which is doubtful but possible) it won't be that much faster...that is not visibly faster and I'll even go on to say that I don't believe the G81 will be that much faster than the R600, but there is one very important difference. When Nvidia says it will be released, you can bet that it will be available when they say!
In my opinion, a product cycle is generation to generation. Compare release dates of the FX-5900 to the 6800 to the 7800 to the 8800. You can't compare the ass end of the 7800 series to the start of the 8800 series. I really don't know if it's 18 months, but I bet it's a lot longer than 5. I'm interested in knowing if someone can dig it up.
Then again if you are just talking about bringing a product to market, then yeah didn't nvidia tell investors they'd be on a 6 month release cycle a couple years back? But that's just for marketing becuase many of the cards aren't new technology, they just bump the clock up and add a new heat sink or whatever.
http://www.nvidia.com/page/desktop.html#gaming
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Yeah I'm just talking a new product, beit a refresh or a completely new architecture. Now if you want to do a complete new card, it's about every 12 months which means Nvidia's all new card will be released sometime at the end of this year and possibly into the first of next year, but nothing like ATi does. ATi on the other hand won't release the R700 until.....well let's just say it wouldn't surprise me at all if the R700 didn't see the light of day until June of 2009! It should be released around the end of 2008 but knowing ATi, who knows. Then again the R700 will have AMD's DNA on it and they may make sure ATi doesn't continue it's delays. AMD couldn't do a whole lot with the R600 since it was all but finished by the time they merged with ATi.
I think ATi's official position about the R600's latest delay is because they want to have a full product line available and that's why there delaying it until they have a full product line ready is bunk. They are so far in the hole right now it's not funny and they need the R600 as soon as they can get it out. There's some sort of technical issue with it I'm betting....oh and GrapeApe, don't make me post some numbers regarding their financial distress...OK because I will if I have to....just trust me on this...there's not reason for me to lie...suffice to say they're hurting. Hopefully AMD's Barcelona will bring them back up and I hope AMD get's ATi back on track again because if AMD/ATi were to go down, that would leave no competition for Intel and Nvidia which would not be good at all. They could set whatever price points they wanted to and their products could be as crappy as they wanted them to be because they'd have no competition. Please AMD/ATi, get your crap together.....we need you and actually Nvidia and Intel need you to, although I'm sure they wouldn't shed any tears if you were to disappear. I don't think AMD/ATi are in any real danger yet, but they need to be very careful now.
I found the link I was looking for about the R600 disappoints ATi....keep in mind it's just a rumor as everything is unless AMD/ATi make an official statement about it. In any case, it's very interesting nonetheless! http://www.fudzilla.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=68&Itemid=34
NamelessMC
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- Nov 27, 2005
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Meh... I think ATI knows things are good enough the way they are right now.
I mean if you really think about it, Nvidia pushed the 8800 out just because of the holiday season. Joke was on everyone because really there's no software to test it. How does Nvidia know for sure their card will run DX10 games perfectly? I mean most chip developers HAVE games to use while making a new chip. Why was Nvidia the exception? Crysis isn't enough of a test sample to use for that.
What I'm concerned about really is the mid-high range cards. I don't really consider the 8800GTS 320 one of those, because 320mb of memory really starts to suffer at higher resolutions.
Last year and before that, Nvidia and ATI were pro at putting out cards that performed at a sweet spot for $170-250.
And don't even bring up ATI's success over the past couple of years. If you guys don't recall, ATI had a fire bomb 2 years ago. The X800GTO2 that could be soft-modded to an X850XT? I bought one of those. It was $180 shipped from the Egg.
$180 shipped for a card that can be soft modded to a $300 card performance.
What I think ATI should do, to give their customers a little more faith, is bring down the price of the 1950XTX a bit and the 1950XT and 1950Pro. That would put those cards in a very competitive spot and give people something to consider for the long run.
I mean mainstream DX10 cards aren't going to surface til late this year. They're going to have DX9 code paths for the next 1.5 years or so. Giving people the ability to snag an XTX for $300-350 will be great to compete with the 8800GTS 320 and give people a reason not to doubt ATI right now.
I don't have a problem with ATI's delay. For one, I'm 100% happy with my 7900GS and by the time my third month comes up for the Step-Up program, the R600 will be out and the 8600GTS or 8800GTS will be waiting for me to snag from eVGA.
I'll have bought a DX10 card 8 months after the G80 released, and I'll still have bought it too early for the DX10 games. Doesn't that mean anything to you guys?
I mean if you really think about it, Nvidia pushed the 8800 out just because of the holiday season. Joke was on everyone because really there's no software to test it. How does Nvidia know for sure their card will run DX10 games perfectly? I mean most chip developers HAVE games to use while making a new chip. Why was Nvidia the exception? Crysis isn't enough of a test sample to use for that.
What I'm concerned about really is the mid-high range cards. I don't really consider the 8800GTS 320 one of those, because 320mb of memory really starts to suffer at higher resolutions.
Last year and before that, Nvidia and ATI were pro at putting out cards that performed at a sweet spot for $170-250.
And don't even bring up ATI's success over the past couple of years. If you guys don't recall, ATI had a fire bomb 2 years ago. The X800GTO2 that could be soft-modded to an X850XT? I bought one of those. It was $180 shipped from the Egg.
$180 shipped for a card that can be soft modded to a $300 card performance.
What I think ATI should do, to give their customers a little more faith, is bring down the price of the 1950XTX a bit and the 1950XT and 1950Pro. That would put those cards in a very competitive spot and give people something to consider for the long run.
I mean mainstream DX10 cards aren't going to surface til late this year. They're going to have DX9 code paths for the next 1.5 years or so. Giving people the ability to snag an XTX for $300-350 will be great to compete with the 8800GTS 320 and give people a reason not to doubt ATI right now.
I don't have a problem with ATI's delay. For one, I'm 100% happy with my 7900GS and by the time my third month comes up for the Step-Up program, the R600 will be out and the 8600GTS or 8800GTS will be waiting for me to snag from eVGA.
I'll have bought a DX10 card 8 months after the G80 released, and I'll still have bought it too early for the DX10 games. Doesn't that mean anything to you guys?
Actually I think Nvidia planned it perfectly because you forget not only is the 8800 GTX and it's siblings a DX10 card, it's also a DX9 card and it performs white-hot when it comes to DX9. I'm buying the 8800 GTX for the DX9 performance as much as the DX10 performance. And if the rumor is true ATi wasn't happy with the performance of the R600 vs the G80. I'm just not sure if they meant under DX9, DX10 or both. I would think they probably meant under DX9 performance since there are no DX10 titles out yet like you said.
Here's the same link I posted earlier about that again there's nothing concrete about this, but I believe this more than the delay is because they want a full product line. http://www.fudzilla.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=68&Itemid=34
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