AMD Pushes R600 Back To May

[Sithtiger]

You are right about the span when Nvidia released no high end cards, but it was for 11 months, not 14, but it was no 6 months release either, but ATi makes a trend of delays, while Nvidia doesn't. http://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_14696.html
http://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_23416.html

You are picking the wrong link again. I already posted the release links in the last page. You first link is for D3, not for the GF6 series itself, it's 14 months from GF6 to 7, and to requote last page;

"Early April 2004 to late June 2005, that's 14mths without even a new SKU in that market segment.

http://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_12687.html
http://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_23415.html "

It's actually 14 months and a bit.
Unless of course you're not focusing on just that market segment, if you're talking about new products period then your statement crumbles again too. Either way it's more than 6 months.

Maybe the G80 was delayed but not more than a month or two...not 6 months though!

So now it's not that nV never delays now you're going for records of delays? The G80 was scheduled for a spring/summer release by all accounts, and when Vista got delayed it switched to september, and then got pushed back again. So even if you only count the last one, the fact is that your stateent that ATi/AMD delays and nV doesn't is false.
Would the NV47/48 have that record? Taking so long it was renamed the G70 even through the drivers still saw it as NV4x series. However like the R600 if the planned replacement offered limited reasons to buy, why not push back until you have the part you want to release? Either way your statement was wrong.

Don't forget though the GeForce 7950 GX2! Yeah I know, it's an OEM part, but it's also a retail part...remember the link I showed you from eVGA selling it....it's backordered currently.

That really has no bearing on those two comments though. The 7950GX2 (which I replied to as a 7900GX2 as I skimmed at work, my mistake I admit) has nothing to do to elevate the G80's delay or the fact that the GF6800U didn't have a replacement for over 14 months. Both of which are issues you say nV doesn't have.

Not that it really matter but it's 11 months, not 14. The 6800U was released in July 2004 and the 7800 GTX was released in June of 2005. That is 11 months not 14....it's in the links. Well maybe the G80 was scheduled for a Spring/Summer release but it was only 5 or 6 months from the time the 7950 GX2 was released until the G80 was.

Now we've got the R600 which is starting to look more and more like they've (ATi) actually switched to a 65nm process which is VERY impressive actually. If this is true, then I don't believe a refresh by Nvidia can beat the R600. However there's a growing rumor on Nvidia's side that they've dumped the G81 in favor of the G90. If that rumor turns out to be true, then honestly, it's up in the air who will win this latest gfx race.

Like someone said earlier, it doesn't really matter who wins, as long as you get a card that you like, but it's extremely irritating to wait on a company. Nvidia used to do the same thing ATi is still doing, but I don't recall Nvidia being quite as bad as ATi has been. Thing is though, even if ATi releases a 65nm R600 or R650 which some people over at the Rage3d forums are saying...ATi has still lost a product cycle.

I think Nvidia will try to wait until ATi releases their R600, but if they take too long, I don't believe they'll just wait until it's released no matter how long it is because they have a schedule to keep and they'll release it at some point despite ATi.

 

[JAYDEEJOHN]

I dont see how a top end non money making part is a full cycle like the 8800s. Wheres the money making, best selling mid and low end range for nVid? When the entire line is announced, I bet they BOTH will have them within weeks of each other

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

Not that it really matter but it's 11 months, not 14. The 6800U was released in July 2004 and the 7800 GTX was released in June of 2005. That is 11 months not 14....it's in the links.

Your link is wrong, it talks about D3 alone pretty much focusing on the [H] article, not the GF6800U launch but the D3 launch. Read mine like I posted first, that the GF6 launch date.

http://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_12687.html
SANTA CLARA, CA—APRIL 14, 2004—NVIDIA Corporation (Nasdaq: NVDA), the worldwide leader in visual processing solutions, introduced today the NVIDIA® GeForce™ 6800 models of graphics processing units (GPUs) for high-performance desktop computers.
Here's the THG review, April 14 2004: http://www.tomshardware.com/2004/04/14/performance_leap/index.html

http://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_23415.html
SAN FRANCISCO, CA—JUNE 22, 2005—NVIDIA Corporation (Nasdaq: NVDA), a worldwide leader in graphics and digital media processing, today unveiled the NVIDIA® GeForce™ 7800 GTX graphics processing unit (GPU)

So 14+ months from GF6800U to GF7800GTX. But whether you want to admit 14 months or try and stick to 11 months, either way your definition doesn't fit either period.

Well maybe the G80 was scheduled for a Spring/Summer release but it was only 5 or 6 months from the time the 7950 GX2 was released until the G80 was.

Which doesn't matter, I'm not bothering with your definition of a product cycle, it's your statement of no nV delay. The G80 was delayed, period.

However there's a growing rumor on Nvidia's side that they've dumped the G81 in favor of the G90.

That's an old rumour, and one that always made sense since the 81 was supposed to be 80nm, and still not come until the end of summer, so why bother, just OC the G80 call it the ultra or GF8900 series, and then jump to the next logical step. The Inq pretty much said as much almost a month ago;
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=37791
Now the InQ not a good gospel but the arguments in their article make alot of sense, and even more so now that there's added pressure to go 65nm.

If that rumor turns out to be true, then honestly, it's up in the air who will win this latest gfx race.

Well it's unlikely that that's what nV's got ready for the R600 at this point unless they started to 65nm already, which might be the case, but it'd be more surprising than AMD, since ATI had always planned an 80->65 jump fairly early one, whereas nV was previously 90->80 for the G80 and then 65nm for the g90 in the fall 07 or winter 08. However, if nV were ready and doing their spin now their part would reach market by about July.

Thing is though, even if ATi releases a 65nm R600 or R650 which some people over at the Rage3d forums are saying...ATi has still lost a product cycle.

Which doesn't really matter, especially if nV also skip a product by going to 65nm and skipping 80nm. Why release a more expensive slower part when you can release a less expensive faster part within the same time frame? It's like crying over spilled milk, they didn't waste time trying to make the 80nm work, just cut your loses and go to R650. Leave the 80nm parts you may already have for the GPGPU stream co-processing engines for professional applications. It's not like AMD brought alot of product to market that went unsold, that would be a much larger concern.

I think Nvidia will try to wait until ATi releases their R600, but if they take too long, I don't believe they'll just wait until it's released no matter how long it is because they have a schedule to keep and they'll release it at some point despite ATi.

Actually, that doesn't make sense. Why would nV rush anything to market if they don't have to? They want to extend their profitable lines without need of refresh for as long as possible, most of their refreshes come because of the need to fill a gap, not to keep on some imaginary schedule. Without a competitive part from ATi/AMD you can easily see nV slowing their timetable, just like they did with the GF6800s. nV's not going to cut their own sales if they don't believe that the R600 is coming or competitive. However since they obviously do believe in it arriving in May with the possibility it could be better than their refresh, then they've chosen the wise thing to do and launch the GF8800U/GF8900 in April, before potentially being obsoleted, and also giving nV something to crow about in that they will have launched the original G80 and it's first refresh before AMD go their part to market, essentially getting 2 before the other 1. Launching a month before the R600 also gives them the chance to sell off as many of their old parts as possible while they quickly switch gears to 65nm, should they launch the GF8800U/8900 after the R600 and the R600 were faster, it would be harder to get rid of old stock they have built up.

Alot of these things are simple economic game theory where they run scenarios for the planning stage with the limited info they have. The thing that changes the whole playing field is when these cards come out and actually get some face time so that people can start comparing their value of the features and performance they offer. Until then anything can happen, including a speedy jump to the G90 for summer/fall.

Of course both of these actions (skipping processes) hurt AMDs and nV's margins and greatly inflate their R&D costs since they don't extend the products long enough to maximize the recuperation of these costs.

Anywhoo, alot to look forward to over the next few weeks, but don't ignore the realities of the past, neither company has an immaculate track record. FUD and such abounds prior to launch and right up until the end rumours are the currency of the realm, like the unified R520, the Hybrid G80, etc.

 

[Sithtiger]

Not that it really matter but it's 11 months, not 14. The 6800U was released in July 2004 and the 7800 GTX was released in June of 2005. That is 11 months not 14....it's in the links.

Your link is wrong, it talks about D3 alone pretty much focusing on the [H] article, not the GF6800U launch but the D3 launch. Read mine like I posted first, that the GF6 launch date.

http://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_12687.html
SANTA CLARA, CA—APRIL 14, 2004—NVIDIA Corporation (Nasdaq: NVDA), the worldwide leader in visual processing solutions, introduced today the NVIDIA® GeForce™ 6800 models of graphics processing units (GPUs) for high-performance desktop computers.
Here's the THG review, April 14 2004: http://www.tomshardware.com/2004/04/14/performance_leap/index.html

http://www.nvidia.com/object/IO_23415.html
SAN FRANCISCO, CA—JUNE 22, 2005—NVIDIA Corporation (Nasdaq: NVDA), a worldwide leader in graphics and digital media processing, today unveiled the NVIDIA® GeForce™ 7800 GTX graphics processing unit (GPU)

So 14+ months from GF6800U to GF7800GTX. But whether you want to admit 14 months or try and stick to 11 months, either way your definition doesn't fit either period.

Well maybe the G80 was scheduled for a Spring/Summer release but it was only 5 or 6 months from the time the 7950 GX2 was released until the G80 was.

Which doesn't matter, I'm not bothering with your definition of a product cycle, it's your statement of no nV delay. The G80 was delayed, period.

However there's a growing rumor on Nvidia's side that they've dumped the G81 in favor of the G90.

That's an old rumour, and one that always made sense since the 81 was supposed to be 80nm, and still not come until the end of summer, so why bother, just OC the G80 call it the ultra or GF8900 series, and then jump to the next logical step. The Inq pretty much said as much almost a month ago;
http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=37791
Now the InQ not a good gospel but the arguments in their article make alot of sense, and even more so now that there's added pressure to go 65nm.

If that rumor turns out to be true, then honestly, it's up in the air who will win this latest gfx race.

Well it's unlikely that that's what nV's got ready for the R600 at this point unless they started to 65nm already, which might be the case, but it'd be more surprising than AMD, since ATI had always planned an 80->65 jump fairly early one, whereas nV was previously 90->80 for the G80 and then 65nm for the g90 in the fall 07 or winter 08. However, if nV were ready and doing their spin now their part would reach market by about July.

Thing is though, even if ATi releases a 65nm R600 or R650 which some people over at the Rage3d forums are saying...ATi has still lost a product cycle.

Which doesn't really matter, especially if nV also skip a product by going to 65nm and skipping 80nm. Why release a more expensive slower part when you can release a less expensive faster part within the same time frame? It's like crying over spilled milk, they didn't waste time trying to make the 80nm work, just cut your loses and go to R650. Leave the 80nm parts you may already have for the GPGPU stream co-processing engines for professional applications. It's not like AMD brought alot of product to market that went unsold, that would be a much larger concern.

I think Nvidia will try to wait until ATi releases their R600, but if they take too long, I don't believe they'll just wait until it's released no matter how long it is because they have a schedule to keep and they'll release it at some point despite ATi.

Actually, that doesn't make sense. Why would nV rush anything to market if they don't have to? They want to extend their profitable lines without need of refresh for as long as possible, most of their refreshes come because of the need to fill a gap, not to keep on some imaginary schedule. Without a competitive part from ATi/AMD you can easily see nV slowing their timetable, just like they did with the GF6800s. nV's not going to cut their own sales if they don't believe that the R600 is coming or competitive. However since they obviously do believe in it arriving in May with the possibility it could be better than their refresh, then they've chosen the wise thing to do and launch the GF8800U/GF8900 in April, before potentially being obsoleted, and also giving nV something to crow about in that they will have launched the original G80 and it's first refresh before AMD go their part to market, essentially getting 2 before the other 1. Launching a month before the R600 also gives them the chance to sell off as many of their old parts as possible while they quickly switch gears to 65nm, should they launch the GF8800U/8900 after the R600 and the R600 were faster, it would be harder to get rid of old stock they have built up.

Alot of these things are simple economic game theory where they run scenarios for the planning stage with the limited info they have. The thing that changes the whole playing field is when these cards come out and actually get some face time so that people can start comparing their value of the features and performance they offer. Until then anything can happen, including a speedy jump to the G90 for summer/fall.

Of course both of these actions (skipping processes) hurt AMDs and nV's margins and greatly inflate their R&D costs since they don't extend the products long enough to maximize the recuperation of these costs.

Anywhoo, alot to look forward to over the next few weeks, but don't ignore the realities of the past, neither company has an immaculate track record. FUD and such abounds prior to launch and right up until the end rumours are the currency of the realm, like the unified R520, the Hybrid G80, etc.

No I posted the Nvidia links that I wanted you to see. I wanted you to see the dates from the 6800 Ultra to the 7800 GTX and how far apart they are...11 months.

I'd never thought I'd say this but I miss paper launches. At least with them, you know what a certain product will do and how it will perform. Here we are with all these rumors floating out, but right now, it's beginning to look more and more viable that the R600 65nm rumor is possibly true. When you see and here people and more importantly web sites report on this, it makes you think and the more sites post this, the more likely it's true.

I've actually found the Inq to be pretty trustworthy and like I've said before if there's a source that's in question, they say so and pretty much all the time when they say they trust a source to be truthful, they're right. That said, I think the 65nm rumor might be true because they've posted a few stories on this now and about 2 in the last couple days along with a handful of other sites and more gaining steam each day. Plus like you said, the closer the time to the release, the more truth comes out. Of course the problem now is, we don't know when the actual release date of the R600 will be since it could be delayed again.

All I know is that I'll give ATi until April 22 with the Intel price drop to see what's going to be released and then I'll see what's going on at that time. I'll just be supremely pissed if I end up waiting until the end of May like AMD/ATi said the R600 would be released...(they actually said between March and May) and then they pop up saying oh, it's definitely gonna be released between June and August. Sorry, but if that happens I'm done with ATi this year no matter if they release a 45nm R600 with 2GB of GDDR5 RAM with a 1024MB-bit bus! I don't mean to be so pessimistic, but I feel I was screwed waiting for the R520 for about 5 months altogether and now I feel it's happening all over again.

All and all I must say, with this rumor, the R600 is really starting to shape up as a GeForce killer. I know it doesn't really matter as long as a card works fine for you, but if you've got the money to buy either one of the top cards out at the time, you can't say, Oh, I don't really care that my card is 50% slower. If two cards are out and one is significantly faster than the other one and they're both the same price (or very close to it), you're gonna want to get the faster one.

I like both ATi and Nvidia, but for the past two years (that's including this year) I've wanted an ATi card because it looks like the better card...at least on paper. I absolutely loved my Radeon 9800 Pro, and that's the only ATi card I've owned before and I also love my 7800 GTX 512 card and I've had no problems whatsoever with either card, but I've got to say that the last time I saw a big difference from and older card to a new upgrade was when I went from my GeForce 4 Ti4400 to the Radeon 9800 Pro. When I went from my 9800 Pro to the 7800 GTX 512 (actually it was from the 9800P to the 7800 GTX, then to the 7800 GTX 512), I didn't see that WOW factor that I had with the 9800P despite the fact that the 7800 512 is obviously much much faster than the 9800 Pro. Sorry to ramble on.....just excited about these rumors!

 

[mannwhite]

I really don't know what you're rambling about. I also had a 9800 Pro, which I really loved by the way. But to say you didn't see a difference between it and a 7800 is plain nuts. I could see a big difference between it and the 7600GS which I had until I got my 8800. As soon as I booted up battle for middle earth 2 i could see the difference to name just one example, and yours is still faster. I think you might want to check your configuration. As to comparing a geforce 4 to a radeon 9800 pro, u're comparing different directx versions for a start, which isn't really fair no?

 

[Sithtiger]

I really don't know what you're rambling about. I also had a 9800 Pro, which I really loved by the way. But to say you didn't see a difference between it and a 7800 is plain nuts. I could see a big difference between it and the 7600GS which I had until I got my 8800. As soon as I booted up battle for middle earth 2 i could see the difference to name just one example, and yours is still faster. I think you might want to check your configuration. As to comparing a geforce 4 to a radeon 9800 pro, u're comparing different directx versions for a start, which isn't really fair no?

That's true, I didn't think about that....talking about different DX versions. that is. As far as me not really seeing that much difference, between the 9800P and the 7800 GTX. Then again I think that might also be because I raised my resolution with my 9800P which was at 1280x1024 to 1600x1200. Sure everything is a little sharper when moving up resolutions, but the 9800P seemed to run smoother than the 7800 GTX. Then again when I moved from the 7800 GTX to the 7800 GTX 512, I did seem to see more of an improvement...that is, it seemed smoother because I think the 7800 GTX wasn't as smooth at 1600x1200 vs the 7800 512 which was smoother since it had 256MB more RAM and higher clock and memory speeds which of course gives better frame rates.

No, my computer was working fine, I just think it was raising the resolution, now that I think about. With my current system which has a X2 4400+@2.31GHz with 2GB of Corsair DDR400 RAM and a my 7800 GTX 512 gets 5581 at 3dmark2006.

I bet with the same specs I have now, changing only my gfx card to a 8800 GTX, I'd get around what 10500 or so. An R600 would probably get you what around 13500 to 14000 or so. Then if you change that to a Quad core Q6600 and a R600, you might see something like 16000 or more! I don't know....can't wait to get my hands on all these new components!

 

[mannwhite]

Easy m8, memory plays tricks on all of us. Ever played a darling childhood game only to find out what utter crap it is right now? No wonder old guys are always harping about how better things always were in their time, unless you start them talking about the war at least.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

I'd never thought I'd say this but I miss paper launches.

So you want to rely on a paper launch as a defense, which still doesn't support your 6 month or 11 month theory (they were in stores at the end of June so even then you're @ 12 months and still wrong).

At least with them, you know what a certain product will do and how it will perform.

Right like the FX, like the NV40's broken video acceleration? :roll:
Neither company reveals all about their product until it launches, BOTH have weaknesses to hide until someone else points then out, to believe otherwise is ignorant of this industry.

Sorry, but if that happens I'm done with ATi this year no matter if they release a 45nm R600 with 2GB of GDDR5 RAM with a 1024MB-bit bus! I don't mean to be so pessimistic, but I feel I was screwed waiting

That's just plain st00pid! If you turn down the #1 performer due to some feeling you were betrayed then you aren't an enthusiast, you're blinded by favouritism. No one says you should wait for anything, everyone here said to buy, and then resell and rebuy when a better replacement comes along. Did intel's delays and missteps keep you from a Core2Duo? Seriously, enough with the brand badge crap, you act as if AMD personally attacked you by the delay. :roll:

All and all I must say, with this rumor, the R600 is really starting to shape up as a GeForce killer.

Hardly, just like the GF8800 wasn't a Radeon killer either.
WTF is it with you people thinking every next card needs to be judged as the next David to slay Goliath, not simply a nice improvement on what we had the week before?

Frickin' Hype mongers, it's people like you that make FUD and PR so effective because you're so affected by it that your brain goes into paralysis.

You need a few more grains of salt in your info diet.

 

[NamelessMC]

This thread went from smart to stupid faster than Britney's head went from decent to fugly.

Let's face the facts: ATI was in no position to feel pressured. They had great cards at every end of the market. X1800GTO, X1900GT, X1950 Pro, X1950XT. So what if the 8800GTX/GTS took the top end? The 1950 Pro and XT still made every DX9 game playable at good settings.

With no Direct X10 games out, the only pressure ATI would feel was having the most FPS in DX9 games, and I'm sorry to break it to you guys, but Oblivion isn't the only game out there.

In fact, two of the upcoming DX9 titles with great graphics I've played are playable at max settings, 1280x1024 with 7900GS and 1950 Pro!

Don't count out ATI. They've been David against the Goliath many a time, and as soon as you count them out, some prime mid-range card will come out that can be soft modded to its older brother's architecture. (Remember the first 9500 non pro and the X800GTO2?)

This year is just like any other year. The only difference is ATI had a lot of time to wait because there weren't any games out to give them a reason to pump out new hardware. Hell they could drop the price tag of the XTX and XT 512 and they'd be back in the competitive spotlight again.

 

[texmaster]

I am curious if this has anything to do with the merger. Any who has been through one knows the level of red tape gets bigger not smaller the first year.

 

[Sithtiger]

I'd never thought I'd say this but I miss paper launches.

So you want to rely on a paper launch as a defense, which still doesn't support your 6 month or 11 month theory (they were in stores at the end of June so even then you're @ 12 months and still wrong).

At least with them, you know what a certain product will do and how it will perform.

Right like the FX, like the NV40's broken video acceleration? :roll:
Neither company reveals all about their product until it launches, BOTH have weaknesses to hide until someone else points then out, to believe otherwise is ignorant of this industry.

Sorry, but if that happens I'm done with ATi this year no matter if they release a 45nm R600 with 2GB of GDDR5 RAM with a 1024MB-bit bus! I don't mean to be so pessimistic, but I feel I was screwed waiting

That's just plain st00pid! If you turn down the #1 performer due to some feeling you were betrayed then you aren't an enthusiast, you're blinded by favouritism. No one says you should wait for anything, everyone here said to buy, and then resell and rebuy when a better replacement comes along. Did intel's delays and missteps keep you from a Core2Duo? Seriously, enough with the brand badge crap, you act as if AMD personally attacked you by the delay. :roll:

All and all I must say, with this rumor, the R600 is really starting to shape up as a GeForce killer.

Hardly, just like the GF8800 wasn't a Radeon killer either.
WTF is it with you people thinking every next card needs to be judged as the next David to slay Goliath, not simply a nice improvement on what we had the week before?

Frickin' Hype mongers, it's people like you that make FUD and PR so effective because you're so affected by it that your brain goes into paralysis.

You need a few more grains of salt in your info diet.

I didn't say I'd be done with AMD/ATi forever, just this year if they delay again...check my statement! Actually the GF8800 GTX is a Radeon killer for the products that are currently out. There's nothing out there right now (since the 8800 GTX's release actually) that ATi can do to compete with the G80. The R600 is the first card that will beat it but that's at least 1 month away at the earliest most likely and at the latest....well who knows.

I was paying so much attention to the high end market, I didn't realize Nvidia was delaying the mid and low end market. Then again, I never said they weren't either. I was only speaking of the high-end market, before you start trying to go after me for that.

Anyway it looks as though partners from both AMD and Nvidia are royally ticked off because of delays and it looks like they're more angry than I am, but I guess they should be since they're actually losing money! http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=38228

 

[Sithtiger]

This thread went from smart to stupid faster than Britney's head went from decent to fugly.

Let's face the facts: ATI was in no position to feel pressured. They had great cards at every end of the market. X1800GTO, X1900GT, X1950 Pro, X1950XT. So what if the 8800GTX/GTS took the top end? The 1950 Pro and XT still made every DX9 game playable at good settings.

With no Direct X10 games out, the only pressure ATI would feel was having the most FPS in DX9 games, and I'm sorry to break it to you guys, but Oblivion isn't the only game out there.

In fact, two of the upcoming DX9 titles with great graphics I've played are playable at max settings, 1280x1024 with 7900GS and 1950 Pro!

Don't count out ATI. They've been David against the Goliath many a time, and as soon as you count them out, some prime mid-range card will come out that can be soft modded to its older brother's architecture. (Remember the first 9500 non pro and the X800GTO2?)

This year is just like any other year. The only difference is ATI had a lot of time to wait because there weren't any games out to give them a reason to pump out new hardware. Hell they could drop the price tag of the XTX and XT 512 and they'd be back in the competitive spotlight again.

If you look at it in terms of games, then no, there's no pressure, but in the business world, there's lots of pressure....just look at what Nvidia and ATi's partners are saying about them: http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=38228

When you go to upgrade you're machine, do you want to buy something that's been out a year or something brand new? I don't know about you, but I want to buy the newest component out if I can. Why, well the newer the part, the faster it will be and the longer it will stay on top. It's not about keeping up with the Jones' because in 6 months time, there will be a newer and faster part out there, but when you upgrade, you want the best you can afford. This is assuming you have the money to do this...I can only do this every two years so I want the best I can get.

My 7800 GTX 512 can run anything out there right now but there are a couple games, I have to lower the resolution in order to get it run smoothly, like Rainbow Six: Vegas that sports the new Unreal 3 engine. Anyway, I would be a little bummed, if after two years the newest card out was the Radeon X1950 XTX or the GeForce 7950 GX2. Of course they're faster than what I have now, but not by a noticeable amount. If the 8800 GTX didn't exist, I'd be stuck buying something that's almost a year old, only to be replaced about a month after I upgrade.

Maybe some people are fine buying older parts and that's great, but I prefer to buy the fastest parts I can buy and by doing that, I'll also be able to run games at higher resolutions with more eye candy on. I also do this in case I can't upgrade when I usually do. I almost wasn't able to upgrade this year...I would have survived but I'd be a little bummed since I can't play games at their highest resolution....and please don't talk about other people having much older equipment...yadda yadda...I've been there too and it sux, but right now, I want the opportunity to choose and when companies delay, they take that away from you. This is the only business that I know of that delays are put up with and even expected. Look at 3dr for goodness sakes. I don't even know how they stay in business....spending all that money on DNF for about what 10 years now and nothing to show for it. I think 3dr has one of the highest turnover rates for employees of any game developer....gee...I wonder why...mabye it's because when you work there, you don't work toward anything....but I digress.

As you can see the AIB partners aren't too thrilled about this either and I think one way or another this is going to stop because they're not going to take it much longer and I'm glad!

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

I didn't say I'd be done with AMD/ATi forever, just this year if they delay again...check my statement!

Check my statement, if there's a part that 200% better in all respects, if you'd still not get it, then you're not an enthusiast. Those jump from product to product when a great opportunity arises, and such a boost in performance would get anyone who even pretends to be an enthusiast. That you jumped onto a GTX-512 after a regular GTX, makes me believe that the only reason you wouldn't jump this time is because of brand loyalty, because that small a boost from the GTX to the GTX512 is nothing compared to the fictional part you use as an example.

Actually the GF8800 GTX is a Radeon killer for the products that are currently out.

No it's not. And that's my point, you're blind to the actual situation adn the actual market. ATi and nV each sell far more (in number, revenue and profit) mid range, and even low range itself than all of the high end combined from both companies. That nV only has the GF8800 and not the GF8600 in market means it's not a Radeon killer by a long shot. Like I said if nV owned the mid-range crown too that'd be another story, but the small influence of the GF8800 on the overall health of either company isminiscule and not enough to do much to their fortunes other than get the hype machine working. Far from a Radeon killer, especially when nV's market share dropped during the XMas buying season the GF8800 was launched into. Explain how it's a Radeon killer when you lose overall market share. The GF8600 could've made a differnce, but it's not in play yet.

I was paying so much attention to the high end market, I didn't realize Nvidia was delaying the mid and low end market. Then again, I never said they weren't either. I was only speaking of the high-end market, before you start trying to go after me for that.

I went after you not because of the market segment, but because of your false statements. And like the Radeon killer remark, you once again seem to have forgotten the mid-range and low end. BTW, you don't want to calculate the GF6600 -> GF7600 gap if you're still trying to think 6 months, so it's best you didn't bother with the high end, I didn't because the focus of this thread and even your writing has obviously been the high range.

Anyway it looks as though partners from both AMD and Nvidia are royally ticked off because of delays and it looks like they're more angry than I am, but I guess they should be since they're actually losing money! http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=38228

The funny part is that it took an article from the InQ to make you realize they aren't that different after all when it comes to these things. The Cartel comment made me laugh when I first read it, because that's exactly how many of us reacto to both ATi and nV saying they were slowing down their push for new products after the X800/GF6800, as outlined in the article I posted, essentially using their duopoly power to slow the pace of growth. That you would include it in a thread where you imply they are so different in their actions makes me laugh again.

 

[Sithtiger]

I didn't say I'd be done with AMD/ATi forever, just this year if they delay again...check my statement!

Check my statement, if there's a part that 200% better in all respects, if you'd still not get it, then you're not an enthusiast. Those jump from product to product when a great opportunity arises, and such a boost in performance would get anyone who even pretends to be an enthusiast. That you jumped onto a GTX-512 after a regular GTX, makes me believe that the only reason you wouldn't jump this time is because of brand loyalty, because that small a boost from the GTX to the GTX512 is nothing compared to the fictional part you use as an example.

Actually the GF8800 GTX is a Radeon killer for the products that are currently out.

No it's not. And that's my point, you're blind to the actual situation adn the actual market. ATi and nV each sell far more (in number, revenue and profit) mid range, and even low range itself than all of the high end combined from both companies. That nV only has the GF8800 and not the GF8600 in market means it's not a Radeon killer by a long shot. Like I said if nV owned the mid-range crown too that'd be another story, but the small influence of the GF8800 on the overall health of either company isminiscule and not enough to do much to their fortunes other than get the hype machine working. Far from a Radeon killer, especially when nV's market share dropped during the XMas buying season the GF8800 was launched into. Explain how it's a Radeon killer when you lose overall market share. The GF8600 could've made a differnce, but it's not in play yet.

I was paying so much attention to the high end market, I didn't realize Nvidia was delaying the mid and low end market. Then again, I never said they weren't either. I was only speaking of the high-end market, before you start trying to go after me for that.

I went after you not because of the market segment, but because of your false statements. And like the Radeon killer remark, you once again seem to have forgotten the mid-range and low end. BTW, you don't want to calculate the GF6600 -> GF7600 gap if you're still trying to think 6 months, so it's best you didn't bother with the high end, I didn't because the focus of this thread and even your writing has obviously been the high range.

Anyway it looks as though partners from both AMD and Nvidia are royally ticked off because of delays and it looks like they're more angry than I am, but I guess they should be since they're actually losing money! http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=38228

The funny part is that it took an article from the InQ to make you realize they aren't that different after all when it comes to these things. The Cartel comment made me laugh when I first read it, because that's exactly how many of us reacto to both ATi and nV saying they were slowing down their push for new products after the X800/GF6800, as outlined in the article I posted, essentially using their duopoly power to slow the pace of growth. That you would include it in a thread where you imply they are so different in their actions makes me laugh again.

I think I probably am an enthusiast because I spend a ridiculous amount of money on components. Like I said, the last time I wanted to get the R520 but I waited quite a few months and finally gave up and bought a 7800 GTX but since I was lucky and bought it from eVGA, I was able to use their program and buy a GTX 512 as an upgrade. Altogether though I spent $750 for the 512 and over $800 for my X2 4400+. I won't be spending that much again I don't think, but fortunately I won't have to since the Q6600 will only cost $530 at the end of April and I should think it shows I'm not a brand loyalist since my last CPU was Intel and my current one is AMD and I'm going back to Intel because they currently have the faster CPU's. The fact that I might buy Nvidia again is more about availability and not being loyal to Nvidia.

How can say the 8800 GTX isn't a Radeon killer currently? ATi has nothing to compete with it right now. The only people who are buying the high end ATi cards right now are loyalists. Of course that will end when the R600 is released, if Nvidia doesn't ruin their launch with their own release.

When I was talking about Nvidia keeping a 6 months cycle I was talking about the high-end market. Sure that doesn't really matter in terms of where the money's made, but to us it does. What I said still stands regarding the high end market. Nvidia still isn't late there and it remains to be seen if they will be with the G90.

There are new rumors that the R600's 65nm yield is low currently and they will have about 20,000 units available for the middle of April: http://www.vr-zone.com/index.php?i=4828
If that's true it looks like they might not have that many for a May launch, plus we all know that despite the reported $600 price tag, it's supposed to have, it may go for as much as $800 or more when online retailers get a whole of it which I didn't think about until someone brought it up in the forums, which is likely to be true. The same goes for Nvidia too, but all the hype is mostly around the R600, not the G90. So I'll be buying the card that is #1 available around the end of April and #2....well there is no #2 really.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

How can say the 8800 GTX isn't a Radeon killer currently? ATi has nothing to compete with it right now.

Because the GF8800 came out during an Xmas launch, and still nV's market share went down. That's not a competition killer. It wins the segment, but since overall sales went down compared to the opposition then it's hard to call it a Radeon killer. It is IMO an X1950XTX killer, but not a Radeon killer. Two different things with two different implications. Like I said, you're being a Hype monger without even knowing what the term 'Radeon killer' implies, that's fine for the hacks who try to sell ad space based on page hits by n00bs like you, but it doesn't fly elsewhere. The R300 was a potential Geforce killer because the entire line was affected and at risk and there was no replacement in sight, but even that didn't do it. And the situation is not even close here, the GF8600 still isn't out and will preceed the AMD by much less than the G80/R600. So the only way that we could be talking about 'Radeon killers' is if the X2K performs like the FX in the face of competition, andwe won't know that for a few more weeks.

BTW, if you're waiting until April to buy your first GF8800, then no you're not an enthusiast buyer, they are early-adopters and already either bought within the first month or when the GTS-320 brought the performance into their price range. You like to buy enthusiast cards so you can claim to be an enthusiast, but you do so when they come down to the mid-range obviously.

When I was talking about Nvidia keeping a 6 months cycle I was talking about the high-end market. Sure that doesn't really matter in terms of where the money's made, but to us it does. What I said still stands regarding the high end market. Nvidia still isn't late there and it remains to be seen if they will be with the G90.

Actually what you said there remains false. You said regarding what you called ATi's final insult of delaying the card;
"Say what you will about Nvidia...they learned from there mistakes and they've been rock solid, ever since the NV40!"

Like I showed you, that's not so, and in the high end since then it hasn't kept the 6month cycle, because whether it's 12 months from actual availability or 14 months since launch it wasn't 6 months. Also, they too covered up weaknesses, just like ATi. So again, you were wrong on being different or rock solid any more than the competition.

There are new rumors that the R600's 65nm...

Are simply that, rumours; and while you try to cover-up your BS from before with more FUD, I'm not going to bother replying to this new round since you've got nothing to support your last round.

Rumours will persist, but until something more solid comes out you're still spinning your wheels because you really just don't have a clue about the market or the industry and hop from rumour to rumour like a bi-polar bunny.

 

[r0x0r]

No it's not. And that's my point, you're blind to the actual situation adn the actual market. ATi and nV each sell far more (in number, revenue and profit) mid range, and even low range itself than all of the high end combined from both companies. That nV only has the GF8800 and not the GF8600 in market means it's not a Radeon killer by a long shot. Like I said if nV owned the mid-range crown too that'd be another story, but the small influence of the GF8800 on the overall health of either company isminiscule and not enough to do much to their fortunes other than get the hype machine working.

I tried telling people that about 8 pages ago but the majority don't seem to listen; all they base their claims on are benchmarks. Never mind that ATi/AMD is also supplying graphics for the Wii and the 360, both of which are selling well.

I think I probably am an enthusiast because I spend a ridiculous amount of money on components.

Money spent = nothing. Please humour us and tell us how spending lots of money makes you an enthusiast.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

I think I probably am an enthusiast because I spend a ridiculous amount of money on components.

Money spent = nothing. Please humour us and tell us how spending lots of money makes you an enthusiast.

Please remind people that quote was not mine, but ST's. 8O

And, yeah people just don't seem to get that a company will not be destroyed by just the very high end. It's like thinking that Ford could be saved or destroyed by Aston Martin alone.

 

[r0x0r]

I think I probably am an enthusiast because I spend a ridiculous amount of money on components.

Money spent = nothing. Please humour us and tell us how spending lots of money makes you an enthusiast.

Please remind people that quote was not mine, but ST's. 8O



My apologies TGGA.

@Everyone:

I think I probably am an enthusiast because I spend a ridiculous amount of money on components.

This is from Sithtiger

 

[Sithtiger]

How can say the 8800 GTX isn't a Radeon killer currently? ATi has nothing to compete with it right now.

Because the GF8800 came out during an Xmas launch, and still nV's market share went down. That's not a competition killer. It wins the segment, but since overall sales went down compared to the opposition then it's hard to call it a Radeon killer. It is IMO an X1950XTX killer, but not a Radeon killer. Two different things with two different implications. Like I said, you're being a Hype monger without even knowing what the term 'Radeon killer' implies, that's fine for the hacks who try to sell ad space based on page hits by n00bs like you, but it doesn't fly elsewhere. The R300 was a potential Geforce killer because the entire line was affected and at risk and there was no replacement in sight, but even that didn't do it. And the situation is not even close here, the GF8600 still isn't out and will preceed the AMD by much less than the G80/R600. So the only way that we could be talking about 'Radeon killers' is if the X2K performs like the FX in the face of competition, andwe won't know that for a few more weeks.

BTW, if you're waiting until April to buy your first GF8800, then no you're not an enthusiast buyer, they are early-adopters and already either bought within the first month or when the GTS-320 brought the performance into their price range. You like to buy enthusiast cards so you can claim to be an enthusiast, but you do so when they come down to the mid-range obviously.

When I was talking about Nvidia keeping a 6 months cycle I was talking about the high-end market. Sure that doesn't really matter in terms of where the money's made, but to us it does. What I said still stands regarding the high end market. Nvidia still isn't late there and it remains to be seen if they will be with the G90.

Actually what you said there remains false. You said regarding what you called ATi's final insult of delaying the card;
"Say what you will about Nvidia...they learned from there mistakes and they've been rock solid, ever since the NV40!"

Like I showed you, that's not so, and in the high end since then it hasn't kept the 6month cycle, because whether it's 12 months from actual availability or 14 months since launch it wasn't 6 months. Also, they too covered up weaknesses, just like ATi. So again, you were wrong on being different or rock solid any more than the competition.

There are new rumors that the R600's 65nm...

Are simply that, rumours; and while you try to cover-up your BS from before with more FUD, I'm not going to bother replying to this new round since you've got nothing to support your last round.

Rumours will persist, but until something more solid comes out you're still spinning your wheels because you really just don't have a clue about the market or the industry and hop from rumour to rumour like a bi-polar bunny.

This "n00b" has been building computers for the past 8 years and been repairing them (hardware and software) for about 10 years and started out with a C=64 back in 1984, and is dual certified in Novell Networking...and yes I'm familiar with MS networking (who isn't), so I'm not so much of a n00b after all.

The reason I didn't buy the 8800 GTX when it was released was because I can only upgrade bi-yearly and last year wasn't my year to upgrade.

Seriously...I'm not responding to you anymore (at least until the R600 and the R90 is released....then I'll respond to see what you have to say then)...all you want to do is argue...I try to steer away from that but you want to dig it up some more and continue with the insults. And since we're dealing insults, have you ever heard of SpellCheck? :roll: Here's a rumor for ya....I guess we'll see whether or not all this talk pans out.
http://www.fudzilla.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=224&Itemid=34
Here's a funny one for ya! http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=38360

 

[Synergy6]

This n00b has been building computers for the past 8 years and been repairing them (hardware and software) for about 10 years and started out with a C=64 back in 1984, and is dual certified in Novell Networking...and yes I'm familiar with MS networking (who isn't), so I'm not so much of a n00b after all.

In the late 60s and early 70s my dad was writing BASIC and Fortran programs for an IBM punchcard system. Now, sometimes he doesn't know whether to type something in the Google box, or the address bar. "Time spent" is a lousy way to prove quality of knowledge.

 

[Sithtiger]

This n00b has been building computers for the past 8 years and been repairing them (hardware and software) for about 10 years and started out with a C=64 back in 1984, and is dual certified in Novell Networking...and yes I'm familiar with MS networking (who isn't), so I'm not so much of a n00b after all.

In the late 60s and early 70s my dad was writing BASIC and Fortran programs for an IBM punchcard system. Now, sometimes he doesn't know whether to type something in the Google box, or the address bar. "Time spent" is a lousy way to prove quality of knowledge.

Not if you keep up with technology! BTW, did he do an COBAL? I had a friend who had to take that in school and he absolutely hated it....lol. That and the venerable AS400....such a high tech machine. :lol: Well it was when it first came out anyway.

 

[tamalero]

I think I probably am an enthusiast because I spend a ridiculous amount of money on components. Like I said, the last time I wanted to get the R520 but I waited quite a few months and finally gave up and bought a 7800 GTX but since I was lucky and bought it from eVGA, I was able to use their program and buy a GTX 512 as an upgrade. Altogether though I spent $750 for the 512 and over $800 for my X2 4400+. I won't be spending that much again I don't think, but fortunately I won't have to since the Q6600 will only cost $530 at the end of April and I should think it shows I'm not a brand loyalist since my last CPU was Intel and my current one is AMD and I'm going back to Intel because they currently have the faster CPU's. The fact that I might buy Nvidia again is more about availability and not being loyal to Nvidia.

How can say the 8800 GTX isn't a Radeon killer currently? ATi has nothing to compete with it right now. The only people who are buying the high end ATi cards right now are loyalists. Of course that will end when the R600 is released, if Nvidia doesn't ruin their launch with their own release.

When I was talking about Nvidia keeping a 6 months cycle I was talking about the high-end market. Sure that doesn't really matter in terms of where the money's made, but to us it does. What I said still stands regarding the high end market. Nvidia still isn't late there and it remains to be seen if they will be with the G90.

There are new rumors that the R600's 65nm yield is low currently and they will have about 20,000 units available for the middle of April: http://www.vr-zone.com/index.php?i=4828
If that's true it looks like they might not have that many for a May launch, plus we all know that despite the reported $600 price tag, it's supposed to have, it may go for as much as $800 or more when online retailers get a whole of it which I didn't think about until someone brought it up in the forums, which is likely to be true. The same goes for Nvidia too, but all the hype is mostly around the R600, not the G90. So I'll be buying the card that is #1 available around the end of April and #2....well there is no #2 really.

dont forget that current ATI top of gthe lines are less than 300 US!
these means a lot of people will go "IM SO PINCHING THESE ASSES" on their cards..
I mean 1950XT at around 250-300 US? :O

his "n00b" has been building computers for the past 8 years and been repairing them (hardware and software) for about 10 years and started out with a C=64 back in 1984, and is dual certified in Novell Networking...and yes I'm familiar with MS networking (who isn't), so I'm not so much of a n00b after all.

The reason I didn't buy the 8800 GTX when it was released was because I can only upgrade bi-yearly and last year wasn't my year to upgrade.

Seriously...I'm not responding to you anymore (at least until the R600 and the R90 is released....then I'll respond to see what you have to say then)...all you want to do is argue...I try to steer away from that but you want to dig it up some more and continue with the insults. And since we're dealing insults, have you ever heard of SpellCheck? Rolling Eyes Here's a rumor for ya....I guess we'll see whether or not all this talk pans out.
http://www.fudzilla.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&amp...=224&am
Here's a funny one for ya! http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=38360

translation " but my e-penis is bigger than your e-penis cause I say so!"
there are a lot of people who build their computers, yet dont know jackshit of technology, they just buy whatever they find "nice" from the marketting :|

 

[Sithtiger]

I think I probably am an enthusiast because I spend a ridiculous amount of money on components. Like I said, the last time I wanted to get the R520 but I waited quite a few months and finally gave up and bought a 7800 GTX but since I was lucky and bought it from eVGA, I was able to use their program and buy a GTX 512 as an upgrade. Altogether though I spent $750 for the 512 and over $800 for my X2 4400+. I won't be spending that much again I don't think, but fortunately I won't have to since the Q6600 will only cost $530 at the end of April and I should think it shows I'm not a brand loyalist since my last CPU was Intel and my current one is AMD and I'm going back to Intel because they currently have the faster CPU's. The fact that I might buy Nvidia again is more about availability and not being loyal to Nvidia.

How can say the 8800 GTX isn't a Radeon killer currently? ATi has nothing to compete with it right now. The only people who are buying the high end ATi cards right now are loyalists. Of course that will end when the R600 is released, if Nvidia doesn't ruin their launch with their own release.

When I was talking about Nvidia keeping a 6 months cycle I was talking about the high-end market. Sure that doesn't really matter in terms of where the money's made, but to us it does. What I said still stands regarding the high end market. Nvidia still isn't late there and it remains to be seen if they will be with the G90.

There are new rumors that the R600's 65nm yield is low currently and they will have about 20,000 units available for the middle of April: http://www.vr-zone.com/index.php?i=4828
If that's true it looks like they might not have that many for a May launch, plus we all know that despite the reported $600 price tag, it's supposed to have, it may go for as much as $800 or more when online retailers get a whole of it which I didn't think about until someone brought it up in the forums, which is likely to be true. The same goes for Nvidia too, but all the hype is mostly around the R600, not the G90. So I'll be buying the card that is #1 available around the end of April and #2....well there is no #2 really.

dont forget that current ATI top of gthe lines are less than 300 US!
these means a lot of people will go "IM SO PINCHING THESE ASSES" on their cards..
I mean 1950XT at around 250-300 US? :O

his "n00b" has been building computers for the past 8 years and been repairing them (hardware and software) for about 10 years and started out with a C=64 back in 1984, and is dual certified in Novell Networking...and yes I'm familiar with MS networking (who isn't), so I'm not so much of a n00b after all.

The reason I didn't buy the 8800 GTX when it was released was because I can only upgrade bi-yearly and last year wasn't my year to upgrade.

Seriously...I'm not responding to you anymore (at least until the R600 and the R90 is released....then I'll respond to see what you have to say then)...all you want to do is argue...I try to steer away from that but you want to dig it up some more and continue with the insults. And since we're dealing insults, have you ever heard of SpellCheck? Rolling Eyes Here's a rumor for ya....I guess we'll see whether or not all this talk pans out.
http://www.fudzilla.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&amp...=224&am
Here's a funny one for ya! http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=38360

translation " but my e-penis is bigger than your e-penis cause I say so!"
there are a lot of people who build their computers, yet dont know jackshit of technology, they just buy whatever they find "nice" from the marketting :|

Ya know I was only stating my skills because that was an attack. I don't go around saying oh look what I can do and BTW, it does require more than "jack" to get certifications. I was originally just going to stop replying to GrapeApe but I can see most people in this thread (save a few) are jerks to put it lightly! So I don't see why I should respond to most people here since I have to constantly defend myself so you guys can just rub each other's back and have a good time! See ya! 😀

 

[Synergy6]

Ya know I was only stating my skills because that was an attack. I don't go around saying oh look what I can do and BTW, it does require more than "jack" to get certifications. I was originally just going to stop replying to GrapeApe but I can see most people in this thread (save a few) are jerks to put it lightly! So I don't see why I should respond to most people here since I have to constantly defend myself so you guys can just rub each other's back and have a good time! See ya! 😀

Goodbye then.

 

[TheGreatGrapeApe]

This "n00b" has been building computers for the past 8 years and been repairing them (hardware and software) for about 10 years and started out with a C=64 back in 1984, and is dual certified in Novell Networking...and yes I'm familiar with MS networking (who isn't), so I'm not so much of a n00b after all.

Like has been mentioned that doesn't mean much, and if you wanna compare resumes you'll have to work harder than that. However networking and fixing old computers means nothing about the current state of affairs in the current desktop market, let alone graphics industry.

it does require more than "jack" to get certifications

Yeah, but certifications in unrelated fields mean nothing. Just like A+ certification means little other than to get a job at Best Buy.

The reason I didn't buy the 8800 GTX when it was released was because I can only upgrade bi-yearly and last year wasn't my year to upgrade.

Well if you're on a regimented program, again you're not an enthusiast, and your statement about the R600 is pointless anyways. If you got the GF8800GTX/GTS at Xmas and then AMD came out with a 22nm R600+++ next month, you're telling me that because of this 2 year rule you'd need to wait until 2008 before you replaced that GF8800? Timetables are not for the true enthusiast market that is at stake here. And not everyone is an enthusiast, they think they are but for mmarketing terms that's not the case, the enthusiast is constantly upgrading, not planning out upgrades on schedules. While people like myself are enthusiastic about the hardware, software, industry, I'm not part of the 'ethusiast' market for me personally, but I do buy for others, and advise others who do buy in that market. And those who are the target market, are already running GF8800s, and would jump to a noticeably better solution atthe drop of a hat.

Seriously...I'm not responding to you anymore (at least until the R600 and the R90 is released....then I'll respond to see what you have to say then)

That's a wise choice, for everyone.
Leave the FUD to the PR boys, and keep the re-writes of history to Wikipedia.

And since we're dealing insults, have you ever heard of SpellCheck? :roll:

Sure, but I don't have time to bother at work; because unlike your errors, mine are spelling errors, while yours are factual errors. I've always been of the opinion that people can get past typos, but factual errors are a bigger issue. You must be looking forward to the day the computers can correct your content errors. BTW, even with you using spell-check you've got spelling errors too, which is funny since you use it and focus on it, and I don't.

Here's a rumor for ya....I guess we'll see whether or not all this talk pans out.

You haven't even finished the post in which you said you weren't going to reply until they are released, and you end with another rumour. :roll:

C'mon FUD-bunny, you do realize that by the time you posted those, they'd already been through this forum for 2 days, right?

Stick to the 'not posting until they release' strategy, I think that'd be best for everyone.