An experiment in discouraging late turns

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Archived from groups: rec.games.diplomacy (More info?)

I've created game timely02 on USOS as another experiment in encouraging
timeliness. It's similar to timely01 (anonymous, white/grey press,
72/36 hour time controls, strict 24 hour grace). However, instead
of ejecting a player after two late turns, the idea this time is to
cause lateness to be a disadvantage in the game.

Here's how it will work: each time a player is late, there will be
an increasing chance that any subsequent partial press they send may be
rebroadcast to all players. Specifically, if a player's late
count is N, then every time that player sends partial press, there
will be an (N times 5%) chance that I will rebroadcast that partial
press to everyone. I will roll a die or use an equivalent random
number generator to determine whether to broadcast a partial press.

Example: if you're late once, then on every subsequent partial press
you send, there's a 5% chance it will be broadcast. If you're late a
second time, the chance goes up to 10%. If you're late 20 times, you
might as well just broadcast them yourself. But if you're NEVER late,
you'll never be at risk.

Lateness due to judge problems will not be counted against a player.
If there are any abandonments (not that there will be, of course), the
replacements will start with a clean slate.

I believe this should not only be an incentive to be on time, but
also be a disincentive to ally with players who are late, since
their press to you has a chance of being revealed. Thus, late
players should find themselves at a disadvantage in the game.

It should be interesting. I'll report back with the results.

Martin Moore

P.S. Do not reply to my address above; it's a spam trap. If you'd like
to contact me, see my address in the game listing.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.diplomacy (More info?)

Non-reversible penalties = bad

Mistakes happen, and any schema that only ratchets up with no provision
for forgiveness simply guarantees that after a player makes a mistake
that causes a late set of orders, that the player will *inevitably*
abandon the game at some later point since he can no longer play on a
level field.

I would never play in such a game. Ever. I make mistakes and forget to
set absence once in a while.

Alcore

--
Alcore Nilth - The Mad Alchemist of Gevbeck
alcore@uurth.com
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.diplomacy (More info?)

mjm214@bellsouth.net writes:

>I've created game timely02 on USOS as another experiment in encouraging
>timeliness. It's similar to timely01 (anonymous, white/grey press,
>72/36 hour time controls, strict 24 hour grace). However, instead
>of ejecting a player after two late turns, the idea this time is to
>cause lateness to be a disadvantage in the game.

>Here's how it will work: each time a player is late, there will be
>an increasing chance that any subsequent partial press they send may be
>rebroadcast to all players. Specifically, if a player's late
>count is N, then every time that player sends partial press, there
>will be an (N times 5%) chance that I will rebroadcast that partial
>press to everyone. I will roll a die or use an equivalent random
>number generator to determine whether to broadcast a partial press.

>Example: if you're late once, then on every subsequent partial press
>you send, there's a 5% chance it will be broadcast. If you're late a
>second time, the chance goes up to 10%. If you're late 20 times, you
>might as well just broadcast them yourself. But if you're NEVER late,
>you'll never be at risk.

>Lateness due to judge problems will not be counted against a player.
>If there are any abandonments (not that there will be, of course), the
>replacements will start with a clean slate.

>I believe this should not only be an incentive to be on time, but
>also be a disincentive to ally with players who are late, since
>their press to you has a chance of being revealed. Thus, late
>players should find themselves at a disadvantage in the game.

>It should be interesting. I'll report back with the results.

>Martin Moore

>P.S. Do not reply to my address above; it's a spam trap. If you'd like
>to contact me, see my address in the game listing.

Hi Martin, kind of an interesting idea, I agree with you that it
is the right kind of incentive, of course you really have to test
it in a lot of games to conclude much.

I would guess that the player who becomes late already wasn't sending
much partial press and might send even less after incurring the
penalties. That might not go over so well with the other players
as this guy will just get more and more silent as he keeps
missing turns. This of course is not the real question, the
question is: does it prevent people from being late in the
first place?

Jim-Bob
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.diplomacy (More info?)

Jim Burgess wrote:
> mjm214@bellsouth.net writes:
>
>> I've created game timely02 on USOS as another experiment in
>> encouraging timeliness.

> I would guess that the player who becomes late already
> wasn't sending much partial press and might send even
> less after incurring the penalties. That might not go over so well
with the other players
> as this guy will just get more and more silent as he keeps
> missing turns. This of course is not the real question, the
> question is: does it prevent people from being late in the
> first place?
>
> Jim-Bob
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.diplomacy (More info?)

Jim Burgess wrote:
> mjm214@bellsouth.net writes:
>
>> I've created game timely02 on USOS as another experiment in
>> encouraging timeliness.

> I would guess that the player who becomes late already
> wasn't sending much partial press and might send even
> less after incurring the penalties.

Well, there are two classes of late players. For those who
aren't interested in the game, then yes, these penalties will
probably decrease their participation. For the other folks
with busy lives, who sometimes rely on late notices to
remind them to submit orders, it might make them more
prompt.

> the question is: does it prevent people from being
> late in the first place?

No. It discourages people who may be inclined to be late
from signing up, but life happens, and people will be late.

Eric.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.diplomacy (More info?)

I am just a newbie, so please bear with me if I am missing something
obvious. However, if I'd imagine this scheme would be used in the game
I am participating in ...

mjm214@bellsouth.net writes:
[...]
> Here's how it will work: each time a player is late, there will be
> an increasing chance that any subsequent partial press they send may be
> rebroadcast to all players. Specifically, if a player's late
> count is N, then every time that player sends partial press, there
> will be an (N times 5%) chance that I will rebroadcast that partial
> press to everyone. I will roll a die or use an equivalent random
> number generator to determine whether to broadcast a partial press.

Uhm ...

Broadcast from ... as England ...:
Hi, France!

I am glad that your are going to stab Germany. I'd suggest just one
slight modification to your attack plan: Instead of ... move ...

....
Yours truly
England


The problem I have with this is that it does not hurt the player who
is late only. But it may -- and probably will -- hurt also others who
are not to blame for the lateness.

Oliver
--
23 Pluviôse an 213 de la Révolution
Liberté, Egalité, Fraternité!
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.diplomacy (More info?)

Oliver Scholz wrote:
> I am just a newbie, so please bear with me if I am missing something
> obvious. However, if I'd imagine this scheme would be used in the game
> I am participating in ...
>
> mjm214@bellsouth.net writes:
> [...]
>
>>Here's how it will work: each time a player is late, there will be
>>an increasing chance that any subsequent partial press they send may be
>>rebroadcast to all players. Specifically, if a player's late
>>count is N, then every time that player sends partial press, there
>>will be an (N times 5%) chance that I will rebroadcast that partial
>>press to everyone. I will roll a die or use an equivalent random
>>number generator to determine whether to broadcast a partial press.
>
>
> Uhm ...
>
> Broadcast from ... as England ...:
> Hi, France!
>
> I am glad that your are going to stab Germany. I'd suggest just one
> slight modification to your attack plan: Instead of ... move ...
>
> ...
> Yours truly
> England
>
>
> The problem I have with this is that it does not hurt the player who
> is late only. But it may -- and probably will -- hurt also others who
> are not to blame for the lateness.
>
> Oliver

Hence why it would discourage people from allying with the chronically
late...

Octavulg
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.diplomacy (More info?)

<snip>

> >
> >
> > The problem I have with this is that it does not hurt the player who
> > is late only. But it may -- and probably will -- hurt also others who
> > are not to blame for the lateness.
> >
> > Oliver
>
> Hence why it would discourage people from allying with the chronically
> late...
>

But, if you're talking about *chronically* late players, why not just set
dedication in such a way as to exclude players with a low dedication rating?
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.diplomacy (More info?)

Why not just require everyone to send in prelims within 48 hours of each
adjudication. Penalty for not doing so repeatedly (say, twice consecutively
or thrice all game) would result in ejection. That usually prevents
lateness/NMRs.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.diplomacy (More info?)

Alcore wrote:

> Non-reversible penalties = bad

This penalty is non-reversible, but at least it's a graduated penalty,
unlike ejection. Yes, if a player makes one mistake (and sure, we all
do it) they are penalized. But if they're only late once, the risk is
small.

A possible variation would be to provide a way to earn one's way back
into good graces, similar to the dedication point system. For example,
every player starts with a 0% chance of the broadcast. A late turn
adds 5%. An on-time turn lowers their chance by 1%, but not lower than
0. This would of course require more bookkeeping to keep track of.

Three players have signed up for timely02 so far. We'll see what
happens.

Martin
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.diplomacy (More info?)

> Why not just require everyone to send in prelims within 48 hours of each
> adjudication. Penalty for not doing so repeatedly (say, twice
consecutively
> or thrice all game) would result in ejection. That usually prevents
> lateness/NMRs.
>

I played in a game once in which you were required to submit preliminary
orders in order to send press. If I recall, we still had one abandonment,
but for the most part everything went smoothly.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.diplomacy (More info?)

In message <1108129379.513213.230940@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com>,
mjm214@bellsouth.net writes
>Alcore wrote:
>
>> Non-reversible penalties = bad
>
>This penalty is non-reversible, but at least it's a graduated penalty,
>unlike ejection. Yes, if a player makes one mistake (and sure, we all
>do it) they are penalized. But if they're only late once, the risk is
>small.
>
>A possible variation would be to provide a way to earn one's way back
>into good graces, similar to the dedication point system. For example,
>every player starts with a 0% chance of the broadcast. A late turn
>adds 5%. An on-time turn lowers their chance by 1%, but not lower than
>0. This would of course require more bookkeeping to keep track of.

I think this is a much better scheme.

If you tell someone "you have sinned, and will never be forgiven", they
will be inclined to think "then s** it, I might as well sin again". But
if you tell someone "you have sinned and will be punished, but if you
repent you will be forgiven", this is an incentive to improved behaviour
in future. Christianity has the right idea.

Nick
--
Nick Wedd nick@maproom.co.uk
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.diplomacy (More info?)

Frank Bell wrote:
>> Why not just require everyone to send in prelims within 48 hours of
>> each adjudication. Penalty for not doing so repeatedly (say, twice
>> consecutively or thrice all game) would result in ejection. That
>> usually prevents lateness/NMRs.
>>
>
> I played in a game once in which you were required to submit
> preliminary orders in order to send press. If I recall, we still had
> one abandonment, but for the most part everything went smoothly.

Yes, I've run several Newbie Queue games with the MustOrder and
NoLatePress flags set. They really do cut down on lateness because
people get in the habit of issuing preliminary orders in 1901 and 02,
when everyone is still committed to the game, and the behavior tends to
carry on throughout.

Eric.
--
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.diplomacy (More info?)

> Frank Bell wrote:
> >> Why not just require everyone to send in prelims within 48 hours of
> >> each adjudication. Penalty for not doing so repeatedly (say, twice
> >> consecutively or thrice all game) would result in ejection. That
> >> usually prevents lateness/NMRs.
> >>
> >
> > I played in a game once in which you were required to submit
> > preliminary orders in order to send press. If I recall, we still had
> > one abandonment, but for the most part everything went smoothly.
>
> Yes, I've run several Newbie Queue games with the MustOrder and
> NoLatePress flags set. They really do cut down on lateness because
> people get in the habit of issuing preliminary orders in 1901 and 02,
> when everyone is still committed to the game, and the behavior tends to
> carry on throughout.
>

And also, when you're not sending press because you haven't submitted
orders, you also become more likely to get eliminated anyway. Natural
selection in the world of Diplomacy, I suppose.
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.diplomacy (More info?)

One way to beat this penalty is to break your press up into small
pieces. If I have a particular message that would be very damaging to
have broadcast, I would send it in several small pieces. That way if it
was broadcast, only a portion would be revealed. Of course, this might
start to get annoying to my allies, to get the press in so many messages.

Interesting idea though.

Roger

PS: Eric, how could you let life interfere with Diplomacy? Where are
your priorties? 🙂

Eric Hunter wrote:

> Jim Burgess wrote:
>
>>mjm214@bellsouth.net writes:
>>
>>
>>>I've created game timely02 on USOS as another experiment in
>>>encouraging timeliness.
>
>
>>I would guess that the player who becomes late already
>>wasn't sending much partial press and might send even
>>less after incurring the penalties.
>
>
> Well, there are two classes of late players. For those who
> aren't interested in the game, then yes, these penalties will
> probably decrease their participation. For the other folks
> with busy lives, who sometimes rely on late notices to
> remind them to submit orders, it might make them more
> prompt.
>
>
>>the question is: does it prevent people from being
>>late in the first place?
>
>
> No. It discourages people who may be inclined to be late
> from signing up, but life happens, and people will be late.
>
> Eric.
>
 
Archived from groups: rec.games.diplomacy (More info?)

In my experience dedicated players are (almost) never late.

Undedicated players will be late no matter how smart your tricks are.