Build Advice Another Budget Build for Family Member

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m1nty

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Mar 5, 2018
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Hi,

I was hoping to obtain your input on the build I put together. The goal is for my mom to use this setup for general email/web browsing, but she likes to dabble in some media editing and photo editing using native programs and freeware. We do stream from this PC to a Roku/Chromecast and would like to start watching 4K video on YouTube. Do you foresee any issues with compatibility? This system will replace a 4+ year old CyberPower tower (I can't even recall the specs on the system) that seems to be dying and randomly cutting off. Are the components that I selected too old to last 5+ years? Should I acquire more RAM instead of the 8 GB I have listed?

Is this system upgradeable with a video card -- thoughts on an Nvidia 1050?

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel - Core i5-7400T 2.4 GHz Quad-Core OEM/Tray Processor ($179.00 @ Amazon)
CPU Cooler: ARCTIC - Freezer 7 Pro Rev.2 45 CFM Fluid Dynamic Bearing CPU Cooler ($24.92 @ Amazon)
Motherboard: Asus - PRIME B250M-A Micro ATX LGA1151 Motherboard ($73.49 @ Amazon)
Memory: Corsair - Vengeance LPX 8 GB (1 x 8 GB) DDR4-2400 Memory ($46.99 @ Newegg)
Storage: Samsung - 970 Evo 250 GB M.2-2280 Solid State Drive ($99.99 @ Amazon)
Case: *Cooler Master - MasterBox Q300L MicroATX Mini Tower Case ($47.98 @ Newegg)
Power Supply: SeaSonic - FOCUS Plus Gold 550 W 80+ Gold Certified Fully-Modular ATX Power Supply ($63.98 @ Newegg)
Operating System: Microsoft - Windows 10 Home OEM 64-bit ($109.99 @ Newegg)
Total: $646.34
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
*Lowest price parts chosen from parametric criteria
Generated by PCPartPicker 2019-03-13 13:31 EDT-0400
 
Shut downs, restarts, glitches, weird errors, anything that could be wrong with any of the hardware can always be imitated by a faulty or underpowered power supply, since all the hardware relies on the power supply. Basically, anything that seems "wrong" could be relevant. Not to mention those cheap power supplies tend to have poor ripple and voltage regulation and feeding excessive ripple to the caps on your motherboard or graphics card is never a good idea if you want it to last as long as possible.

I'd just have liked to see you go with a quality power supply, after all, it's the most important component in the build.
 

m1nty

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Mar 5, 2018
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Shut downs, restarts, glitches, weird errors, anything that could be wrong with any of the hardware can always be imitated by a faulty or underpowered power supply, since all the hardware relies on the power supply. Basically, anything that seems "wrong" could be relevant. Not to mention those cheap power supplies tend to have poor ripple and voltage regulation and feeding excessive ripple to the caps on your motherboard or graphics card is never a good idea if you want it to last as long as possible.

I'd just have liked to see you go with a quality power supply, after all, it's the most important component in the build.

No offense taken, and I appreciate all the suggestions/input! As I mentioned, what really drove my decision making was where I could purchase the items and timing -- Amazon's Prime allowed me to receive all of my items the same day (except for the optical drive). Additionally, it was hard for me to find a case that could fit a 3.5" internal drive, 2.5" SSD, and a 5.5" external drive bay along with the standard USB 3.0 in a slim package. I also required that the PSU could be replaced, which I saw people said was possible in reviews.
 
It can. Options for replacement units are a LOT more limited, than they would be if it was an ATX form factor unit, and there are a lot fewer high quality models when it comes to small form factors like TFX, but there are some. To get a unit of reasonably good quality you will pay significantly more than for an ATX form factor unit of equivalent quality though since it's more of a niche market, but it's getting better and options increase as time goes on.
 
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And that is why I had a little bit of a disappointment when I saw what he went with in contrast to the recommendations for a small system that used more standard equipment, and also that it was an InWin with a TFX unit. Seen a few threads with people who had those. Disappointing.
 
They're not, which is why we're talking about it, but the one it came with isn't one of them. So when the time comes, and it will, there are much better options than a direct replacement of the one it came with or as an upgrade even before that happens. Personally, I wouldn't use that PSU with my hardware. Likely to cause some kind of problem at some point whether from poor power delivery or degrading the other hardware.
 

m1nty

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Mar 5, 2018
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So you all already told me what would happen... and it happened...

My mom has not been able to power up her tower any longer after a few storms went through her area surging her setup. All other electronics attached to the same power strip are safe, but the tower just does not seem to want to turn on or indicate that it is on through any LEDs. After trying to troubleshoot by text message, I think it may be her PSU; thus, I am going to go for a third-party model.

I saw the two that you all recommended from Seasonic/SilverStone on Amazon, but those will not get there in time for me to align my visit back home to see her. Micro Center does have the Solid Gear TFX 350 Watt PSU available -- has anyone had experience with this brand? The cost is a lot cheaper compared to the Seasonic models, but readily available for me to pick up when I arrive in the area. Another option is to splurge on Newegg for a Seasonic model, 1-2 day shipping, and be done with it (almost 3x the cost). Just trying to see if anyone has any additional insight on cost vs. benefit here.
 
That unit only has about 200w on the 12v rail. Not good.

Also, Solid gear has ZERO reputable reviews, for ANY model that they make, anywhere, which is a very bad indicator. I would not buy a power supply from any brand that didn't have ANY reputable and positive reviews of at least one of their products, much less, and more importantly, for the product I was interested in.

I think Solid gear MIGHT be the house brand for Micro center, and I've HEARD that they make ok units if you don't mind something very mediocre, but honestly, my advice would be to avoid it.

Get the Seasonic and be done with it. Otherwise, you'll likely be doing this again, like I told you in the beginning.
 

m1nty

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Mar 5, 2018
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Okay, I finally got my mom's computer in my hands...

Used it a little, called her crazy for thinking that it wouldn't turn on, got BSOD - memory_management, I said sorry, system did not turn on any longer (fans ran, power button lit, no beeps or posts), tested another PSU (issue remained), then I swapped around the memory modules finally finding that one of the sticks went bad. Ran Windows 10 Memory Diagnostics and found now issue with the working one, at least.

As of now, I am running it with only 8 GB, and it is doing fine. I might process the full refund through Amazon and pickup a new pair altogether while at the same time getting a certified PSU that was suggested here.

Has anyone had this sort of experience with G.Skill becoming defective so soon? I have only used Corsair sticks that have been running strong for >9 years.
 
Rarely. But it happens occasionally regardless of the manufacturer. I've seen every brand of memory have similar issues. Usually it's because somebody has purchased sticks separately rather than a matched and tested set of sticks, but it happens sometimes with tested sticks as well. Memory is just sometimes.......bad.

I'll assume that you tested both sticks individually using Memtest86? I wouldn't trust the windows memory diagnostic in most cases. Did you test each stick separately with it installed in the A2 slot?

Here is how "I" test memory.

Testing your memory configuration to verify stability

Before you decide that this section is not worth your time or get lazy thinking you don't need to test because you you're system "seems" fine, with no obvious blue screens, freezing or restarting, let me make one thing VERY, VERY CLEAR.

ANY amount of instability in your memory configuration is enough to cause what are known as micro errors. This is a very miniscule error which, if it only happened one time might not ever be a factor but when it happens cumulatively in small increments over time, can result in complete and total corruption of your operating system, documents, game files, applications, music, movies, everything, to the point of being a complete and total loss with no chance of recovery.

Memory configurations that are not as close to 100% stable as possible are not a joke. They WILL eventually cause widespread corruption of the entire file system. Don't cut corners because it's simply not worth it. If you are unwilling to do the testing necessary to make sure the system is stable you should simply leave the memory at the default configuration and that includes NOT setting the memory to the XMP profile if the profile of the memory is beyond what the system automatically configures the memory speed and timings to by default. Do the testing. One day out of your life is not going to kill you but not doing it might make you wish you had died if you lose a lot of very important information and personal files that can't be replaced.



Memtest86


Go to the Passmark software website and download the USB Memtest86 free version. You can do the optical disk version too if for some reason you cannot use a bootable USB flash drive.

Create bootable media using the downloaded Memtest86 (NOT Memtest86+, that is a different, older version and is outdated). Once you have done that, go into your BIOS and configure the system to boot to the USB drive that contains the Memtest86 USB media or the optical drive if using that option.


Click here to download Memtest86 USB package

Create a bootable USB Flash drive:


1. Download the Windows MemTest86 USB image.

2. Right click on the downloaded file and select the "Extract to Here" option. This places the USB image and imaging tool into the current folder.

3. Run the included imageUSB tool, it should already have the image file selected and you just need to choose which connected USB drive to turn into a bootable drive. Note that this will erase all data on the drive.



No memory should ever fail to pass Memtest86 when it is at the default configuration that the system sets it at when you start out or do a clear CMOS by removing the CMOS battery for five minutes.

Best method for testing memory is to first run four passes of Memtest86, all 11 tests, WITH the memory at the default configuration. This should be done BEFORE setting the memory to the XMP profile settings. The paid version has 13 tests but the free version only has tests 1-10 and test 13. So run full passes of all 11 tests. Be sure to download the latest version of Memtest86. Memtest86+ has not been updated in MANY years. It is NO-WISE as good as regular Memtest86 from Passmark software.

If there are ANY errors, at all, then the memory configuration is not stable. Bumping the DRAM voltage up slightly may resolve that OR you may need to make adjustments to the primary timings. There are very few secondary or tertiary timings that should be altered. I can tell you about those if you are trying to tighten your memory timings.

If you cannot pass Memtest86 with the memory at the XMP configuration settings then I would recommend restoring the memory to the default JEDEC SPD of 1333/2133mhz (Depending on your platform and memory type) with everything left on the auto/default configuration and running Memtest86 over again. If it completes the four full passes without error you can try again with the XMP settings but first try bumping the DRAM voltage up once again by whatever small increment the motherboard will allow you to increase it by. If it passes, great, move on to the Prime95 testing.

If it still fails, try once again bumping the voltage if you are still within the maximum allowable voltage for your memory type and test again. If it still fails, you are likely going to need more advanced help with configuring your primary timings and should return the memory to the default configuration until you can sort it out.

If the memory will not pass Memtest86 for four passes when it IS at the stock default non-XMP configuration, even after a minor bump in voltage, then there is likely something physically wrong with one or more of the memory modules and I'd recommend running Memtest on each individual module, separately, to determine which module is causing the issue. If you find a single module that is faulty you should contact the seller or the memory manufacturer and have them replace the memory as a SET. Memory comes matched for a reason as I made clear earlier and if you let them replace only one module rather than the entire set you are back to using unmatched memory which is an open door for problems with incompatible memory.

Be aware that you SHOULD run Memtest86 to test the memory at the default, non-XMP or custom profile settings BEFORE ever making any changes to the memory configuration so that you will know if the problem is a setting or is a physical problem with the memory.

After your memory will pass Memtest for 4 full passes, it is still not necessarily stable, but it is a good start and you should move on the the last phase of testing using Prime95. See, there IS a light at the end of the tunnel.




Final testing with Prime95

It is highly advisable that you do a final test using Prime95 version 26.6 or the latest version WITH AVX and AVX2 disabled, and run a custom configured Blend test. You can also use the Blend mode option as is, but after a fair amount of personal testing, asking questions from some long time members with engineering level degrees that have forgotten more about memory architectures than you or I will ever know, and gathering opinions from a wide array of memory enthusiasts around the web, I'm pretty confident that the custom option is a lot more likely to find errors with the memory configuration, and faster, if there are any to be found.

Please note as this is rather important, if you prefer, or have problems running version 26.6 because you have a newer platform that doesn't want to play nice with version 26.6, you can use the latest version of Prime95 with the Custom test selected but you will need to make the following change.

In the bottom of the Torture test selection popup menu there will be some options for disabling AVX. I recommend that you do so, not because we are doing thermal testing and require a steady state workload (Which AVX wouldn't affect anyhow, as Computronix explained to me), but because the last thing you need during memory testing is having to worry about CPU temperatures, and you will, with AVX enabled.

So, uncheck the option for AVX2. That will un-gray the option for AVX, and uncheck that box as well.

Now open Prime95.

Click on "Custom". Input a value of 512k in the minimum FFT size field. Leave the maximum FFT size field at 4096k. In the "Memory to use" field you should take a look at your current memory allocation in either HWinfo or system resource monitor. Whatever "free" memory is available, input approximately 75% of that amount. So if you currently have 16GB of installed memory, and approximately 3GB are in use or reserved leaving somewhere in the neighborhood of 13GB free, then enter something close to 75% of that amount.

So if you have 13GB free, or something reasonably close to that, then 75% of THAT would be 9.75GB, which, when multiplies times 1024 will roughly equal about 9984MB. You can average things out by simply selecting the closest multiple of 1024 to that amount just to keep it simple, so we'll say 10 x 1024= 10240mb and enter that amount in the field for "Memory to use (MB)". We are still well within the 13GB of unused memory BUT we have left enough memory unused so that if Windows decides to load some other process or background program, or an already loaded one suddenly needs more, we won't run into a situation where the system errors out due to lack of memory because we've dedicated it all to testing.

I've experienced false errors and system freezes during this test from over allocating memory, so stick to the method above and you should be ok.


Moving right along, do not change the time to run each FFT size.Leave that set to 15 minutes.

Click run and run the Custom test for 8 hours. If it passed Memtest86 and it passes 8 hours of the Custom test, the memory is 100% stable, or as close to it as you are ever likely to get but a lot of experts in the area of memory configuration suggest that running the extended Windows memory diagnostic test is also a pretty good idea too.

If you get errors, (and you will want to run HWinfo alongside Prime95 so you can periodically monitor each thread as Prime will not stop running just because one worker drops out, so you need to watch HWinfo to see if there are any threads not showing 100% usage which means one of the workers errored and was dropped) then you need to either change the timings, change the DRAM voltage or change the DRAM termination voltage, which should be approximately half of the full DRAM voltage.

There are also other bios settings that can affect the memory configuration AND stability, such as the SOC, VCCIO and system agent voltages, so if you have problems with stability at higher clock speeds you might want to look at increasing those slightly. Usually, for Intel at least, something in the neighborhood of 1.1v on both those is pretty safe. There are a substantial number of guides out there covering those two settings, but most of them are found within CPU overclocking guides so look there in guides relevant to your platform.
 
Just a note about Prime 95. Its VERY hard on systems, extreme wear. Prime 95 for a day is a harder on your hardware than running extremely intense games for a month straight.

Its not unlike revving your car's motor up to the redline and leaving it there. Its a good testing tool, but don't run it long, it eats lifespan.
 
I think you should look at a "miniPC"
You can find one for your $500 budget.
Intel NUC has a bewildering number of options.
All are small, 7" x 7" or such.
Here is one example:
https://www.newegg.com/p/1VK-004K-002Z8

I have bought a similar Lenovo "tiny" unit refurbished which I was much impressed with.
Here is one example:
https://www.newegg.com/lenovo-think...stations-student-home-office/p/1VK-0003-0G6E0
Integrated graphics is adequate for HD movie playback.

The key for performance in such systems is to have a ssd.
How large that needs to be, only you can tell.
128gb is minimum and I suspect 256gb will d for your purposes.

Here is a new Lenovo "tiny" that is customizeable.
https://www.lenovo.com/us/en/deskto...ThinkCentre-M720q/p/10T7CTO1WWENUS0/customize
Customized with a 256gb ssd and 8gb of ram, it comes in at $467.
You might do better, look at the options.
 
Just a note about Prime 95. Its VERY hard on systems, extreme wear. Prime 95 for a day is a harder on your hardware than running extremely intense games for a month straight.

Its not unlike revving your car's motor up to the redline and leaving it there. Its a good testing tool, but don't run it long, it eats lifespan.

Who said anything about running Prime95 for a day? Also, you are mistaken and are misinterpreting the effects of running a very specific range of very small FFTs, which is not even part of the memory test procedure. Even if it was, it wouldn't get beyond the TDP of the platform anyhow as we wouldn't be running AVX or AVX2 instruction sets. The idea that Prime95 is any more or less problematic than running extensive encoding applications is just not valid.

Case in point, for THIS specific memory test routine that I outlined above.

Next, we have my tool of choice for basically all forms of stress testing, Prime95.

I know, some of you are scared when you see this come up.

In fact, pretty sure I felt someone's heartbeat increase somewhere in the world due to the sheer mention of it.

Relax. For this purpose, Prime95 is going to be 100% harmless. In fact, we won't be using an FFT size small enough for it to get hot, so you should be fine. If you are absolutely terrified, feel free to use the non-AVX version, as it shouldn't matter for ram stability (unless you are stress testing specific AVX-based tertiary timings, such as tRDWR_DD/DR, but more on that later. For now, let's focus on how to stress it. Open up Prime95 of your choice (I am currently using 28.10 as of this guide) and input the following settings:



Now, for "Memory To Use", make sure you enter your own value. I highly recommend 75% of your total capacity. If you have say, 16GB, then your capacity = 16 x 1024 - 25% = 12288MB. For 8GB, that value would be 6144MB. Since I have 32GB, I'll be using 24576 to stress test. Once this starts, let it run for several hours. I personally let mine run for about 8-12 hours, depending on how I feel and how much I've tinkered from my last stable profile, but I do not recommend running for less than 8 hours. I know it's tempting to cut corners, but memory instability is not a game you want to play. It can seriously corrupt your windows installation, and require a fresh install. Take this part seriously.

As for why we use the settings above, allow me to explain. 512k-1024k is hard on the IMC and IO lanes. 2048k+ is hard on your ram. By setting the range at 512-4096, we not only stress the IMC and IO Lanes, we also stress the memory itself. Be warned: 1344k and 2688k are also included in this range, and are the hardest stress on vCore. If your CPU is unstable by any means, it will fail this, and will likely hold you back on memory overclocking. Always make sure your CPU is 100% stable before attempting memory overclocking. The less variables involved, the better. For those of you with Haswell, and worried about that old myth of Prime95 killing CPU's, understand this. This range lacks 448k, which was the hardest FFT to test on FIVR. You should be fine here.