Another PC only gaming company dies...

[Morton]

I've read the post written by Michael Fitch (the link that Rob Wright provided). He mentions in his text that they had copy protection systems throughout the game at some dungeon entrances and quest triggers. People downloaded a cracked version of the game and thought it contained bugs while the crashes were actually caused by the protection system. Then he states that this generated really bad reputation for the game. Why on earth couldn't they include a warning somewhere either in the readme file or the game manual?

WARNING! THE GAME CONTAINS COPY PROTECTION THROUGHT THE ACTUAL GAME! CRACKING THE GAME WILL RESULT IN UNEXPECTED CRASHES DURING GAMEPLAY!

 

[Prose]

Prose, perhaps I have a skewed perspective since I cover games for a living, but yes, I would be a little surprised if a hardcore PC gamer told me he/she hadn't at least heard of Titan Quest. Again, this probably goes to the fact that I get padi to know about and play games. But where exactly is the shady logic in my post beyond that? The sad fact of the matter is that many people consider themselves hardcore PC games and true fans of the platform, but they still pirate titles. This, quite frankly, sickens me.

Call me crazy, think of m uncool, and peg me as a stooge for The Man, but I just don't think you can call yourself a fan or supporter of PC gaming if you're downloading games without paying for them. We can debate all day about whether or not pirating is stealing, but at the end of the day, the more people that pirate, the less money the developers make. The less money the developers make, the less quality goes into their next game (especially with the rising cost of development), and then we see fewer and fewer PC game developers and PC-only titles. And that, Prose, is the world we're currently living in.

Robert Wright, I am quite happy in seeing a not completely polarized tone in your post even though it may be hard to maintain sometimes.

I agree with you on the fans not being fans bit and them just posers or whatever they may really be.
What I don't 100% agree upon is the automatic association of game pirated equaling money lost. One may download a game because it is free and were it not free, would never have bought it. So in a parallel reality, where the game was not pirated, the person would not have bought it anyways ! Obviously, the major flaw in this reasoning is "how would you know ? " and how many people would buy the game if it was impossible to get it otherwise.

So, à la Minority Report, it's quite impossible to tell, but what I am trying to say is that people only see the piracy problem as such: "half of Titan Quest players play pirated copies therefore, if the pirates didn't exist, that whole half would have bought the game and the company would have made twice the income." And that reasoning is oh! so false, in my humble opinion.

 

[Prose]

Prose,

Can't judge anything -- wrong. Life is all about judgements and the decisions one makes based on those judgements.

If you don't like the society you live in and it's laws and regulations then find another society to live in, or go thru legal means to try and change it. In the US, at least you have the means to make change.

I really don't understand the judgment part, could you please rephrase ?

As for the second paragraph, I hope you are aware of the difficulty of changing in laws in favor of anyone except for the big lobbyists or big payers of money towards the lawmakers. I mean, look at the net neutrality debacle ! Or simply poke a peek at CRIAA (RIAA's legal extension into Canada) blatantly lying to everyone about obvious things and almost succeeding in applying short-sighted damaging regulations. As for that matter, look at the RIAA ! You gotta admit that argument is naive at best !

Lastly, have your heard about Hero's Battlefield, a free game that makes it's money off ads and lets your customize visual aspects for a price. See ? Potential solution.

 

[pilgrim_uk]

Whos defending piracy venom?

So let me get this straight, you believe it's the industries job to prevent you from stealing software, audio, video?

Well yes. This is where the Naivety part comes in as Rob pointed out this is the world we live in.

So you're in favor of being searched every time you enter and leave a grocery store

How does companies doing something about piracy equate to a dystopian 1984 future.

 

[tnor]

Tnor,

Not for Iron Lore it doesn't.

exactly ... companies that can't adapt in this marketplace will fold, just as in any other industry.

maybe it is just that, under the current technological conditions of the games/software industry, that there is not meant to be profits except under heavy (and costly) government regulation/enforcement. kind of like power generation, under prevailing technologies, has a tendency to be called a "natural monopoly". i can't help but think that this might be the case as i type on a firefox web browser and scroll though my programs and count all the open source programs in there. then again, google doesn't charge much, if at all, for all of its software services and look at their balance sheets! some players in this industry are starting to shift the prevailing technologies and market conditions, and are making good $ at it, despite not charging anything for the actual procurement or use of their "property".

this article is interesting, if you (in the collective sense) haven't already spent enough time in this thread:
http://www.wired.com/techbiz/it/magazine/16-03/ff_free?currentPage=1

 

[Morton]

If the console industry is already in some sort of symbiosis in that companies sell consoles at a loss and then make profit on the games, then maybe PC gaming industry could do it the other way: higher prices for high-end graphic cards but the buyer always gets a coupon with which he/she can get at least one or two new generation games during the next few months after the purchase. Of course, this solution is based on the "if we (game companies) suffer, then let them (graphic card companies) suffer too" logic. But seriously, the majority of people who buy a high-end graphic card need it only for gaming and nVIDIA and AMD as well as the manufacturers (Asus, MSI, eVGA, XFX etc.) will loose their high-end graphic card market if PC gaming dies. Perhaps more help from them now that they have formed the "PC Gaming Alliance"?

 

[robwright]

Rob
I agree with you on the fans not being fans bit and them just posers or whatever they may really be.
What I don't 100% agree upon is the automatic association of game pirated equaling money lost. One may download a game because it is free and were it not free, would never have bought it. So in a parallel reality, where the game was not pirated, the person would not have bought it anyways ! Obviously, the major flaw in this reasoning is "how would you know ? " and how many people would buy the game if it was impossible to get it otherwise.

So, à la Minority Report, it's quite impossible to tell, but what I am trying to say is that people only see the piracy problem as such: "half of Titan Quest players play pirated copies therefore, if the pirates didn't exist, that whole half would have bought the game and the company would have made twice the income." And that reasoning is oh! so false, in my humble opinion.

And I agree with you, Prose, that not every pirated copy of a game leads to a lost sale for that game, and that some pirates are only downloading the games because they're free and have no intention of paying for them. But if you watch this week's Second Take video on Iron Lore's closing, you'll notice I make that point. I also say in the video that if, for example, 50 percent of the copies of Titan Quest out there are cracked, let's argue that half of that 50 percent WOULD HAVE bought the game had they not been able to download from Pirate Bay and other torrents. That 25 percent number is a still significant number of sales, and perhaps would have gone a long way to helping Iron Lore stay in business.

Here's the video: http://www.tomsgames.com/us/site/flash_videos/second_take_did_piracy_kill_iron_lore_.html

 

[Prose]

Morton, yeah, that's another possible solution along with what Battlefield Heroes is doing.
I think it would actually be a decent motivational element for people to pay more for their graphic cards.
The creation of a PC Gaming Alliance as you put it could arrange for the online distribution of said games while a share of profits from the graphic card manufacturers could be spread to the members of the Alliance.
But it would have to be a cautious process, for the Alliance could become the bastard child of Satan, or RIAA.

 

[Prose]

Oh! So you're THAT Rob Wright ! Well, in the video, why are you the one that keeps answering question and why isn't Ben Meyer arguing ?

Yeah, so I guess the problem is, on one side, to estimate what that real number is, of people who would have bought the game if they couldn't get it pirated. I guess you could do a very very very crude ballpark figure by comparing the number of hours spent playing as to estimate the degree of which they like the game (and in that same fashion, see if they buy it afterward). Another problem is the fact that when people realize they do like the game, they whip out the "too bad for them" and make, in a possible point of view, "immoral" decisions not to buy it.

Although this may seem a mean remark, in a sense, society's attitude is dictated by the mass and if the mass acts in this immoral way, well, that's a snapshot we have of our world. However, I guess many assumptions can be used to analyze the reasons for that behavior (one extreme one saying that all pirates are motherless bastards and the other side saying that none of the pirates would have bought the game anyways).

Oh and I thought about another model. Would it be a good idea to charge people by the number of hours they play ? For example, under 5 hours, it costs nothing, and you pay a little more at each hourly threshold until you reach, let's say 40$ and then the game is fully paid or some variation of that plan.

 

[pilgrim_uk]

People ARE NOT going to change about developers they dont know or even care about. The ethical/moral question does not even come into it. People who will download will always download they get into a rut of always downloading because they know they can get it for free. 50 percent pirated i would probably say is a conservative estimate iand for older titles its probably much higher.

I think console piracy is just as rife as PC but you need to get consoles chipped/rom hacked. Which will invalidate your warranty and with an xbox get you banned from mslive extras. This will put most parents off and stop there children from doing it.

 

[PsY X]

PsY X,

So you have access to Iron Lore servers and can't positively say this was not due to piracey?

The only person I know to have the game bought it. Other than him telling me about it, I had no idea it was around, and I play games at least somewhat religiously. Just take a step back and look at the situation for a second. Games like this and Call of Duty 4, among others, get pirated like crazy. Then you have games like Portal, and just recently Audiosurf (new developers too). Where are their complaints? Are they doing poorly? They ARE PC games after all... Piracy can be brought to a minimum. CoD 4 did poorly on PC compared to XBox. How many PC's can run CoD 4 at HD resolutions compared to Xbox 360's in the US? Where are the numbers these people are getting coming from exactly? Since when is high end PC gaming a non-enthusiast market??

SO, we have a problem, but instead of complaining about it, and pointing fingers, and saying "hey you guys stop, you're gonna kill PC gaming (because you KNOW they care)" why doesn't someone come up with a way to stop them from wanting to pirate. You can make it harder with DRM, but like a car's locks, DRM only keeps the honest people out. Steam is a step in the right direction, the days of physical copies are coming to an end anyways. JUST LIKE the RIAA and MPAA and all these idiots going after the consumers, THQ is pointing it's finger instead of trying to find a solution. Is it not at fault at all for this? It was 100% the piracy that caused this game (and the developer) to fail?

I'm a hardcore PC gamer, and I'll defend PC Gaming to the death. However, PC Gaming is dying. Part of the problem is piracy. But you'd be a fool to say piracy is the only problem.

One more thing, if you think it's going to stop at PC gaming you're absolutely insane. If piracy becomes such a huge problem, and consoles are becoming more interactive with the internet, what makes you think consoles will be immune once PC Gaming is dead? If it's such a huge problem, you'd think all companies would be putting more incentive to stop pirating instead of ineffective CD Keys and prehistoric CD checks.

 

[V8VENOM]

Talk about response diversion. It's stealing folks, something doesn't need to "vanish" to be deemed stolen (look up the definition). How many of you are willing to work for nothing?

So you want society to play mother and tell you "no you can't do that", then that is what you'll get -- and you WILL not like it. But please stop trying to justify what you doing as valid, it isn't, it screws the honest and it will ulimately screw the dishonest and nobody wins.

Ads to pay for games, oh great, more spam, more garbage, more malware.

Here's a concept, how about you theives straigthen up? Go clean, be honest and help save the industry rather than destroy it? That is also one option.

Morals?? You've broken the law -- got nothing to do with Morals -- those you can internalize yourself til you doomsday. You're a thief, plan and simple and your download IS breaking the law.

 

[PsY X]

Talk about response diversion. It's stealing folks, something doesn't need to "vanish" to be deemed stolen (look up the definition). How many of you are willing to work for nothing?

So you want society to play mother and tell you "no you can't do that", then that is what you'll get -- and you WILL not like it. But please stop trying to justify what you doing as valid, it isn't, it screws the honest and it will ulimately screw the dishonest and nobody wins.

Ads to pay for games, oh great, more spam, more garbage, more malware.

Here's a concept, how about you theives straigthen up? Go clean, be honest and help save the industry rather than destroy it? That is also one option.

Morals?? You've broken the law -- got nothing to do with Morals -- those you can internalize yourself til you doomsday. You're a thief, plan and simple and your download IS breaking the law.

I think the point of the 'response diversion' was that these people KNOW they are stealing, and they don't care. You can sit there all day telling them 'save the industry' and the responses are always the same, "The industry owes me a free copy blah blah". DRM won't help. A lot of what I'm saying Rob went over in the video. You can't go with DRM, people aren't going to all of a sudden have some moral dilemma and save the industry. The ONLY way to save the PC gaming industry is by changing the distribution infrastructure. This arguing about morals is pointless. I don't think labeling the consumers as thieves is going to help the situation.

 

[Morton]

Some ESA statistics (Entertainment Software Association, includes ID Software, Atari, Eidos, Activision, Electronic Arts, Ubisoft, Vivendi, Sony and other prominent game companies, altogether 90% of the gaming industry):


USA / PC Game Sales
2003: 52.8 million games sold (1.2 billion $)
2004: 45 million games sold (1.1 billion $)
2007: 36.4 million games sold (910 million $)

USA / Console Game Sales
2003: 186.4 million games sold (5.8 billion $)
2004: 203 million games sold (6.2 billion $)
2007: 153.9 million games sold (6.6 million $)


http://www.theesa.com/files/2005EssentialFacts.pdf (2003-2004)
http://www.theesa.com/archives/2008/01/computer_and_vi_1.php (2007)

 

[robwright]

I'm a hardcore PC gamer, and I'll defend PC Gaming to the death. However, PC Gaming is dying. Part of the problem is piracy. But you'd be a fool to say piracy is the only problem.

I agree with you there -- piracy isn't the only problem for PC gaming. But you'd also be a fool to say PC gaming wouldn't be a whole lot healthier as a business if fewer people pirated the games. Yes, a long term solution to PC game piracy needs to be constructed (software as a service model, ad-supported free games, etc.). But in the meantime, wouldn't it help if the pirates abstained from pirating?

 

[pilgrim_uk]

wouldn't it help if the pirates abstained from pirating?

Without a doubt but we all thats nots going to happen.

That would only create other pirate groups who can climb up the pirate kudos tree to claim the crown. People who crack games are not the same as people who distribute them. Get at the root of the problem stop the means to crack a game without a cracked .exe the distribution network is useless.

 

[tnor]

enforcement, litigation, countless attempts at "protecting" the games ... these all cost money, and eventually the party these measures all end up costing the most to are the developers. as the business model is set up for many businesses now, like Iron Lore, this has to be the inevitable outcome ... look at the #s Morton posted.

as many have stated here and elsewhere, piracy is not going to stop, the lines are too blurry for people to see it as a major ethical problem. any campaign, either threatening or friendly, will be too cost prohibitive to engage in for PC game developers. if it were cheap and effective it would've already have been done. without a change in how revenue is generated from these games, i'd venture to say that anyone who is a "PC only" gaming company will be soon on the heels of Iron Lore. it is just the nature of the current state of technology and the capitalist society we live in.

as a side note, i've never illegally downloaded a PC game or condone it, just if you think that is behind what i am saying here.

 

[Morton]

wouldn't it help if the pirates abstained from pirating?

Without a doubt but we all thats nots going to happen.

That would only create other pirate groups who can climb up the pirate kudos tree to claim the crown. People who crack games are not the same as people who distribute them. Get at the root of the problem stop the means to crack a game without a cracked .exe the distribution network is useless.

Yes, even if peer-to-peer pirating is stopped, there are always some older techniques that were used in the 90s. For example, you can always exchange games with friends or buy a game, make a copy for yourself and get a cracked .exe, then sell the original to someone for a slightly cheaper price. Of course, this might be better than P2P pirating because at least someone in the chain buys an original copy. The 21st century should be friendlier to game developers because they don't necessarily need to rely on a publisher and distributor. They can advertise, sell and distribute their game through the Internet.

 

[dev1se]

I've nothing to hide....

If I cant get hold of a legal download for an audio track (underground dance music is what I DJ in a nightclub in my town - hence it's very difficult to obtain EVERYTHING legitimitely) then I will attempt to find it for free.
This year 80% of the downloads I've made have been legal / paid for... the remainder are simply audio files that I'm unable to find on the legal site.

I did used to download most my music illegally but I've found to stay ahead the pay sites are the way forward.

I go to the cinema's, I watch a movie.. If it's good... I'll download it from a Torrent website so I can watch it again. In my eyes, whether i've seen it once, or seen it 10 times, I've still paid my way towards that movie. If a DVD is cheap enough, I'll pay £5 for a good film. I refuse to pay £20 per DVD though! Admittedly I've got around 80 movies on my PC... I think the replay value of a movie is a couple watches and its pointless owning it any longer... So paying £15+ to see a film you might watch once isnt good value in my eyes.

Gaming.... I have downloaded a few games... all games I've bought in the past & sold or lost, that I'd like to play again. I only a PS2 and a PC obviously. I have 0 pirated games for the PS2 (Over 40 titles) and 0 copied PC games (Around 35 - 40 titles)... I dont believe in copying games, since it's so much easier installing a legit game (unless its downloaded from EA Link!).

My copy of Windows Vista is legit... ok so its been installed on a couple other PCs that'll never need a reinstall... but its paid for, and the other PC's are all used by myself. OK, maybe it doesnt make it right, but at least I've paid. I've a legit XP serial number, but no disc (lost).... I dont believe in using pirate O.S's simply because they dont update and are more trouble than they're worth the majority of the time. As for other software, MOST of it is pirated... I refuse to pay rediculous sums of money for software that's replaced weeks later that you need to go out and buy again. It's so much easier having a hard drive with all your .EXE install files there, ready to put all your software back on quickly once you've reinstalled Windows. Who wants 100's of CDs / DVD's laying about the place when you can fit it all on a few HDD's.

Make legal downloads affordable and I'll happily pay for them.. that includes movies too. But as it stands now.. I'll pay for what I consider good value for me.

There's people out there alot worse than me...

 

[Chazwuzzer]

Jeez...

OK, the argument that by copying a game causes no harm fails completely. There's a legal concept out there, one that is fully recognized by legislatures and courts all around the world (UK too!) called dilution. One of the primary reasons for the enactment of copyright and trademarks laws is the recognition that when something is duplicated, it loses value. If 1,000 legit copies of a book, or software, or whatever are released and pirates make thousands of copies, the value of the 1,000 legit copies is reduced. The owner of the intellectual property is directly harmed - their property is deliberatly devalued. Copyright and trademark laws were enacted to protect the value of the inventor's IP.

I've mentioned this on another forum, but you would much rather be nailed for theft than for copyright violation (or violation of the digital millenium copyright act).

 

[tnor]

value is assigned by the people who value, not producers. if the value of an object comes directly from owning that object, as in this case, the fact that you own a copy does not detract from my value of my copy.

i think what you are talking about is more specific to items that are prized for their scarcity, not for their use value. i.e. a 1952 topps Mickey Mantle baseball card.

the only way i can see your argument holding up here is if the game were so bad that more exposure to it through illegal means were to reduce legal purchases of the game through word of mouth. at that point the developer probably deserves what they get.

 

[Annisman]

This all sucks, I got into computer gaming just a year or two ago, aside from console gaming. And now, it seems as if I have missed the glory days of PC gaming. Soon, everyone will be doing multiplatform games, if not forgetting about the PC platform almost altogether. I am not going to pretend that I know anything about Titan Quest, because I don't. BUT with that being said, how can anybody question me as a true PC gamer? I have the enthusiast hardware, and I constantly purchase PC titles whether they are good, great, or somtimes poor, just to support the Developers (and of course to get my gaming fix) For example, when I heard that Sins of a Solar Empire was an excellent game, I went straight to EB to get it. Even if I don't enjoy the genre, or even the game, if I have the money (which I usually do) I plan to continue supporting well made games. Gotta keep the PC alive baby.

 

[Can Not]

IMHO, NO. I would like to believe cross platform development will bring back some titles, but that just isn't going to happen for several reasons:

1. PC still requires too much tech knowledge
2. Viable gaming PC costs more
3. PC Sales numbers don't justify the port

Two of those justify charging $10 more for the console version.

 

[Maximus_Delta]

value is assigned by the people who value, not producers. if the value of an object comes directly from owning that object, as in this case, the fact that you own a copy does not detract from my value of my copy.

i think what you are talking about is more specific to items that are prized for their scarcity, not for their use value. i.e. a 1952 topps Mickey Mantle baseball card.

not really... the fact that illegal versions are so prolific and easy to get reduces the 'perceived' value of the item. This is compounded by the fact digital copies are perfect... not like knock off designer clothes where the copy has a tangible lower quality. If you can get an illegal copy so easily, and especially with all these weak arguments for it, then the immediate value proposition for actually buying a genuine copy is reduced or virtually non-existent.

---

Regardless of what anybody argues, buy torrenting a game you would of honestly otherwise of bought, you are stealing it. Crysis and COD4 are both excellent games and massively torrented - people clearly don't feel more inclined to buy the good games.

I hope the PC Gaming Alliance, with Nvidia, ATi, Intel, and all those other companies that depend to a greater or lesser degree on the PC gaming market for sales, find a way to drastically reduce piracy. Implementing some kind of solution at the hardware level seems like the best way forward... there will always be the people who are willing to invest lots of time and effort to avoid paying for something, but as things stand now, it's just far too easy to torrent a game.

 

[imnotageek]

I think I have read so much different arguements over what is stealing and what is not - in both the contexts of audio or games ... kind of makes my head spins.

To me, it is plain simple. If someone creates something with the intend to sell, anyone who possesses that something either for sampling or ownership or any other intends needs to pay for it. You can't really talk your way out of this.

How to enforce it is of course another issue.