- Status
pilgrim_uk
Distinguished
- Sep 29, 2003
- 23
- 0
- 18,510
People who take software from torrents are just dabblers the real downloaders are newsgroups (which you have to pay for). You can easily download 25-30 gigabytes a day between 9-5 before you get home from work. Imagine how many cd's, dvds, games in a week you could have. Most folk who pay for newsgroups probably have a good job go to church on a sunday and have not broke a law in their life.
The fact of the matter is people dont give a damn about intellectual theft of software/dvd/music and its availibility as well as anonymity makes it easier. Companies need to protect there investment if they dont then why is it our problem.
Spare me the stereotypes of no job losers who "steal software". People are morally flexible, companies need to wake up from there state of naivety and protect there investment.
The fact of the matter is people dont give a damn about intellectual theft of software/dvd/music and its availibility as well as anonymity makes it easier. Companies need to protect there investment if they dont then why is it our problem.
Spare me the stereotypes of no job losers who "steal software". People are morally flexible, companies need to wake up from there state of naivety and protect there investment.
jonyb222
Distinguished
- Jan 20, 2008
- 334
- 0
- 18,780
I'm curious to at what point is it considered piracy, it is of course for a game that just came out but let's say old ones like Surf city (settlers), dinopark and other games that were made like 10 years ago? Is downloading those games (that either can't be found or are now more expensive because of their age and rareness)
robwright
Distinguished
- Feb 16, 2006
- 1,129
- 7
- 19,285
The reason that you've heard a lot about piracy is because there is, in fact, quite a bit of it. And is it so hard to believe that a small independent developer had to shut its doors because a large percentage of its potential customer base wasn't paying for its one and only title?
Wait, I know, it's not piracy, right? It's the rising cost of game development that's killing PC game developers. OK, fine. Well, you know what would help small independent developers keep pace with those rising costs? PEOPLE ACTUALLY PAYING FOR THE GAME INSTEAD OF DOWNLOADING IT FOR FREE!
PsY X, you must not be much of a PC gaming fan. If you were, 1) I'm sure you would have at least heard about Titan Quest, and 2) I doubt you'd be so glib and unsympathetic about the death of an independent developer, who tried in vain to support PC gaming instead of running to greener pastures with the next-gen consoles. I wonder if you'll play your tiny violin if the day comes when you're out of the job because someone was pirating your hard-earned work....
Feeling like soon it'll be flame-time but still, I got to point out that stealing and copyright infringement isn't the same thing. When an offender downloads a copy of game, it doesn't reduce the number of existing individual games on the shelves of a store. I know many are aware of this difference, but it's still an important differentiation.
V8VENOM: Hey, you brought the audio theft as an argument, which is possibly the worst argument in this case. Except from RIAA's mouth, every other statistic shows that P2P in any form hasn't really hampered the industry. And, au contraire, many artists are happy for gained popularity.
By the way, I've read in IGN (http://gear.ign.com/articles/749/749883p1.html) and also The Resiter and The Inquirer, if memory serves, that RIAA wants to lower artists' percentage on sales. Well, since everyone is using the stereotypical violin, let me get mine out too. I surely feel bad for the RIAA since it is fighting so hard, implementing DRM so badly and being a pain the ass for the sake of the artist. Oh how much they care. And by the way, VHS won its right to exist when it was being brought down because you could record things of TV and not have to buy them later. And gramophones won their existence also when human piano players wanted to bring that down too because it would mean people could listen to stuff at home instead of having to pay them.
Now, back to the games, I am pretty sure that lot of 'pirating' figures are pulled out of someone's ass. Like jonyb222 points out, there isn't even a clear definition of pirating.
The PC to console ratio is pure bullshit, it means nothing since it's based on an humongous assumption that there are an equal number of players for each platform when there are so many other factors to take into account.
RobWright: you say the following:
A true gaming fan would know of Titan Quest when false gaming fans don't. I also presume to mean to say that a true gaming fan would buy the game and not download it. But this also implies that a false gaming fan wouldn't download the game because he doesn't know about it. Therefore, the game either has been pirated by people who know of this game (true game fans) or hasn't been bought enough and therefore doesn't appeal to true gaming fans. I know, I know, shady logic but so were some parts of your post.
I don't think I read anyone say it's the rising prices of development that kills the PC game developers. As games evolve, so do the tools. In the PS3 epoch, Wii is less visually stunning and yet sales like crazy.
As for the buy the game instead of downloading it, who says I would feel inclined to pay for the game if there was no download available ? That means that I wouldn't buy it anyways ! (When I say '' I '', it's not a personal, me,'' I '', it's a narrative one)
strangestranger: wow, that's some hardcore punishment you're opting for there. Next time your cross the street and it's not at a lawful place (like zebra crossings or corner of the streets), make sure your rip your genitalia off to punish yourself for being such a criminal scum.
llama_man: actually, being poor can be an excuse for stealing. Maybe not in the gaming context, but if you consider the 'I wouldn't buy it if I couldn't download it' argument and if you study history and economy, you would see that in the long run, rich people steal from the less rich and make it legal even if it is immoral. I am not saying this applies to this context, I am just pointing out that I feel the generality you spoke wasn't true.
V8VENOM: Hey, you brought the audio theft as an argument, which is possibly the worst argument in this case. Except from RIAA's mouth, every other statistic shows that P2P in any form hasn't really hampered the industry. And, au contraire, many artists are happy for gained popularity.
By the way, I've read in IGN (http://gear.ign.com/articles/749/749883p1.html) and also The Resiter and The Inquirer, if memory serves, that RIAA wants to lower artists' percentage on sales. Well, since everyone is using the stereotypical violin, let me get mine out too. I surely feel bad for the RIAA since it is fighting so hard, implementing DRM so badly and being a pain the ass for the sake of the artist. Oh how much they care. And by the way, VHS won its right to exist when it was being brought down because you could record things of TV and not have to buy them later. And gramophones won their existence also when human piano players wanted to bring that down too because it would mean people could listen to stuff at home instead of having to pay them.
Now, back to the games, I am pretty sure that lot of 'pirating' figures are pulled out of someone's ass. Like jonyb222 points out, there isn't even a clear definition of pirating.
The PC to console ratio is pure bullshit, it means nothing since it's based on an humongous assumption that there are an equal number of players for each platform when there are so many other factors to take into account.
RobWright: you say the following:
A true gaming fan would know of Titan Quest when false gaming fans don't. I also presume to mean to say that a true gaming fan would buy the game and not download it. But this also implies that a false gaming fan wouldn't download the game because he doesn't know about it. Therefore, the game either has been pirated by people who know of this game (true game fans) or hasn't been bought enough and therefore doesn't appeal to true gaming fans. I know, I know, shady logic but so were some parts of your post.
I don't think I read anyone say it's the rising prices of development that kills the PC game developers. As games evolve, so do the tools. In the PS3 epoch, Wii is less visually stunning and yet sales like crazy.
As for the buy the game instead of downloading it, who says I would feel inclined to pay for the game if there was no download available ? That means that I wouldn't buy it anyways ! (When I say '' I '', it's not a personal, me,'' I '', it's a narrative one)
strangestranger: wow, that's some hardcore punishment you're opting for there. Next time your cross the street and it's not at a lawful place (like zebra crossings or corner of the streets), make sure your rip your genitalia off to punish yourself for being such a criminal scum.
llama_man: actually, being poor can be an excuse for stealing. Maybe not in the gaming context, but if you consider the 'I wouldn't buy it if I couldn't download it' argument and if you study history and economy, you would see that in the long run, rich people steal from the less rich and make it legal even if it is immoral. I am not saying this applies to this context, I am just pointing out that I feel the generality you spoke wasn't true.
Look, I know piracy is a PC gaming problem, I'm not trying to debate that. What I'm saying is THQ is full of it when they blame this company's death solely on piracy. THQ did little to nothing to promote the game, they took a few ads out in PC Gamer, that's about it. I DO know about this game, I did play it, and I know for a fact there was plenty of anti-piracy software on there which would have been difficult to get across. Its THQ's failure to recognize a great game from the piles of crap they normally dish out. And because they made that mistake, an indie developer went down, and their excuse is: Piracy.
Like I said I know its a problem but a producer saying Piracy these days is like Bush saying terrorism.
- Dec 31, 2007
- 953
- 33
- 19,020
Pilgrim,
So let me get this straight, you believe it's the industries job to prevent you from stealing software, audio, video? So you're in favor of being searched every time you enter and leave a grocery store? What sorta society do you wanna live in? Piracey is a BIG problem, that is why it is in the news so much, that's why anti-piracey schemes exist which in turn increases the cost of the product.
Flake,
What are you debating?? It sounds like your saying because your job requires you to do other tasks that you don't feel you get paid for, it is hence now OK for you to go steal software, audio, and video? If that is the type of logic you will use once you exit university, good luck to ya! It will not get you very far and you will remain poor til you adjust your logic.
Jay,
I guess I don't understand your point either.
As for stealing and being a thief, intellectual property is still property, just as food is property for the grocery store who buys it from the farmers and farmers who spend 14 hrs a day growing crops. Do you folks realize that even if as little as 10% of the food in a grocery store were stolen that would be enough to put that store out of business or force them to increase their prices (which ultimately probably would put them out of business)? Intellectual property or tangible property, it is still property.
And don't fool yourself about downloading software, audio, video "anonymously" -- there really is no such thing.
But more importantly to all those that steal, what sorta of society do you want to live in? You really want a society/industry that consists of "stop me if you can"? Dog eat dog -- that's a pretty dismal existances and certainly has no future for the human race.
I'm surprised we haven't seen a post from the anarchist idiot kid who thinks he can survive with no one's help (ready and able to go shooting people on campus). Or the gangster kid who thinks he can do whatever he wants whenever he wants. They usually chime in about this time -- perhaps because the thread doesn't say "Piracey" in the title.
So let me get this straight, you believe it's the industries job to prevent you from stealing software, audio, video? So you're in favor of being searched every time you enter and leave a grocery store? What sorta society do you wanna live in? Piracey is a BIG problem, that is why it is in the news so much, that's why anti-piracey schemes exist which in turn increases the cost of the product.
Flake,
What are you debating?? It sounds like your saying because your job requires you to do other tasks that you don't feel you get paid for, it is hence now OK for you to go steal software, audio, and video? If that is the type of logic you will use once you exit university, good luck to ya! It will not get you very far and you will remain poor til you adjust your logic.
Jay,
I guess I don't understand your point either.
As for stealing and being a thief, intellectual property is still property, just as food is property for the grocery store who buys it from the farmers and farmers who spend 14 hrs a day growing crops. Do you folks realize that even if as little as 10% of the food in a grocery store were stolen that would be enough to put that store out of business or force them to increase their prices (which ultimately probably would put them out of business)? Intellectual property or tangible property, it is still property.
And don't fool yourself about downloading software, audio, video "anonymously" -- there really is no such thing.
But more importantly to all those that steal, what sorta of society do you want to live in? You really want a society/industry that consists of "stop me if you can"? Dog eat dog -- that's a pretty dismal existances and certainly has no future for the human race.
I'm surprised we haven't seen a post from the anarchist idiot kid who thinks he can survive with no one's help (ready and able to go shooting people on campus). Or the gangster kid who thinks he can do whatever he wants whenever he wants. They usually chime in about this time -- perhaps because the thread doesn't say "Piracey" in the title.
gone fishin'
Distinguished
- Dec 12, 2007
- 100
- 0
- 18,680
did any of you actually play warhammer? frankly it was bad as for the others I haven't and I won't, but I made the mistake of buying the games only once, and made sure I did not make the same mistake again, so the bull about the pirates putting them out of business is bull, bad games don't sell good ones do, ask ID software they have had all their games pirated- a lot, and they still produce some of the best
- Dec 31, 2007
- 953
- 33
- 19,020
Prose,
It is still stealing property that one has not paid for, none of your statements (accurate or otherwise) validate stealing. Like I said, I've heard them all before, they're weak, lame, really make no difference to the facts. Yeah, this piracey thing is just a myth, oh brother!
It is still stealing property that one has not paid for, none of your statements (accurate or otherwise) validate stealing. Like I said, I've heard them all before, they're weak, lame, really make no difference to the facts. Yeah, this piracey thing is just a myth, oh brother!
- Dec 31, 2007
- 953
- 33
- 19,020
Gone Fishin,
Titan Quest and the add-on were seriously pirated, their multiplayer servers were able to detect the severity. And yes I have played Titan Quest -- it is a very good game.
I can assure you piracey isn't a Myth, if it were why do we see anti-pirate schemes?
Titan Quest and the add-on were seriously pirated, their multiplayer servers were able to detect the severity. And yes I have played Titan Quest -- it is a very good game.
I can assure you piracey isn't a Myth, if it were why do we see anti-pirate schemes?
yes shadeEx, good old simple extreme one-variable conclusions.
V8VENOM, no intellectual property is different from tangible property, first by law, and secondly by the fact that downloading something doesn't make it vanish from another source. It's a huge difference IMHO.
By the way V8VENOM, our maladjusted economic system is already pushing many corporations to act with a ''stop me if you can'' attitude. One of most obvious is the oil oligarchy.
V8VENOM, no intellectual property is different from tangible property, first by law, and secondly by the fact that downloading something doesn't make it vanish from another source. It's a huge difference IMHO.
By the way V8VENOM, our maladjusted economic system is already pushing many corporations to act with a ''stop me if you can'' attitude. One of most obvious is the oil oligarchy.
DRM is not a good solution, you can see the backlash already occuring from that in the music industry with DRM free itunes, emusic etc. it just alienates regular customers and doesn't serve as a strategic deterrent (i.e. bioshock).
Litigation also doesn't, or if it can, it hasn't yet. Just fills the pockets of lawyers and leaves the producer and consumer in a bad position.
Ads may work, it seems to be the way of the future.
One obvious step is to remove the middlemen to reduce costs. The marginal costs of hosting your game on your site for legal download is basically zero, with the price of bandwidth dropping daily. Cut out the packagers, distributors, retailers, and the like and there could be some decent cost savings there.
charging less for games couldn't hurt. i know i certainly buy a lot more music now that the price for a cd has come down exponentially since the '90's.
the claims about how 50-70% of a products audience, like that of iron quest, was alleged to have stolen the game are interesting. this may be technically true in that of the 100% of the people that play the game (legally or illegally) 50-70% have procured it illegally. if it weren't available illegally that audience would shrink considerably, however. since the marginal cost of provision to Iron Lore is zero when the game is downloaded illegally, technically they haven't really "lost" anything when it is downloaded illegally. if anything they have gained in intangibles, like reputation and popularity, if the game is any good.
a solid combination of:
1. reducing prices
2. removing middlemen
3. capitalizing on reputation and popularity (i.e. through advertising, merchandising, etc.)
would definitely be a start to recovering the fixed costs of producing the game, while preserving the incentive to make good games.
right now we have a situation where the market won't hold the prices that are being charged. maybe producers have cut prices and costs as much as they can, and have explored all avenues of capitalizing on popularity, etc. as has been mentioned. changing the audience's attitude is not going to work (at least not for the cost it would take), so the solution is to work around that, or unfortunately, fail as a company. i hope that is not the solution, i just dropped $200 on hardware upgrades!
Litigation also doesn't, or if it can, it hasn't yet. Just fills the pockets of lawyers and leaves the producer and consumer in a bad position.
Ads may work, it seems to be the way of the future.
One obvious step is to remove the middlemen to reduce costs. The marginal costs of hosting your game on your site for legal download is basically zero, with the price of bandwidth dropping daily. Cut out the packagers, distributors, retailers, and the like and there could be some decent cost savings there.
charging less for games couldn't hurt. i know i certainly buy a lot more music now that the price for a cd has come down exponentially since the '90's.
the claims about how 50-70% of a products audience, like that of iron quest, was alleged to have stolen the game are interesting. this may be technically true in that of the 100% of the people that play the game (legally or illegally) 50-70% have procured it illegally. if it weren't available illegally that audience would shrink considerably, however. since the marginal cost of provision to Iron Lore is zero when the game is downloaded illegally, technically they haven't really "lost" anything when it is downloaded illegally. if anything they have gained in intangibles, like reputation and popularity, if the game is any good.
a solid combination of:
1. reducing prices
2. removing middlemen
3. capitalizing on reputation and popularity (i.e. through advertising, merchandising, etc.)
would definitely be a start to recovering the fixed costs of producing the game, while preserving the incentive to make good games.
right now we have a situation where the market won't hold the prices that are being charged. maybe producers have cut prices and costs as much as they can, and have explored all avenues of capitalizing on popularity, etc. as has been mentioned. changing the audience's attitude is not going to work (at least not for the cost it would take), so the solution is to work around that, or unfortunately, fail as a company. i hope that is not the solution, i just dropped $200 on hardware upgrades!
- Dec 31, 2007
- 953
- 33
- 19,020
PsY X,
So you have access to Iron Lore servers and can't positively say this was not due to piracey?
What about Bush saying Terrorism? Now you don't believe Terrorists exist?? Man, get a clue. Bush's failing is that he's a complete idiot and had NO PLAN on how to effectively deal with Terrorism, and still doesn't have a plan. But this isn't relevant to Piracey.
So you have access to Iron Lore servers and can't positively say this was not due to piracey?
What about Bush saying Terrorism? Now you don't believe Terrorists exist?? Man, get a clue. Bush's failing is that he's a complete idiot and had NO PLAN on how to effectively deal with Terrorism, and still doesn't have a plan. But this isn't relevant to Piracey.
- Dec 31, 2007
- 953
- 33
- 19,020
Prose,
So something has to vanish for it to be ??? What is your point here? How is this difference relevant?
Ah, the old "it's justified because it's big business/corporations and we should all be allowed to steal from them because they take advantage of us" - who do you think businesses hire? You and me. Where do they get the money to pay you and me? If you got issues with what they pay you, then that is between you and the company you work for and is NOT a justification to go steal property (by and definition).
So something has to vanish for it to be ??? What is your point here? How is this difference relevant?
Ah, the old "it's justified because it's big business/corporations and we should all be allowed to steal from them because they take advantage of us" - who do you think businesses hire? You and me. Where do they get the money to pay you and me? If you got issues with what they pay you, then that is between you and the company you work for and is NOT a justification to go steal property (by and definition).
V8VENOM:
"I can assure you piracey isn't a Myth, if it were why do we see anti-pirate schemes?"
Look, no offense man, but the fact that there are anti-piracy schemes only indicates that there is some piracy, it's not a quantitative measure in any case.
Also, there are a lot of anti-marijuana ads on TV, that doesn't mean marijuana is death itself. For example, alcohol has worst effects on health and judgement that marijuana and that's legal.
Therefore, a measure against something shouldn't be how you judge that something.
V8VENOM:
"Prose,
It is still stealing property that one has not paid for, none of your statements (accurate or otherwise) validate stealing. Like I said, I've heard them all before, they're weak, lame, really make no difference to the facts. Yeah, this piracey thing is just a myth, oh brother! "
No, again, it is not property per say, it is intellectual property, it is different. There still is some difference, can we agree on that ? The only immediate thing downloading a game does is reducing the incentive of buying said game. It doesn't take a copy away. It is not stealing in the sense that 1 copy of that game cannot be sold. Every copy of that game can still be sold.
Can you please analyze my lame argument, por favor ? " I wouldn't buy it if it weren't free? "
"I can assure you piracey isn't a Myth, if it were why do we see anti-pirate schemes?"
Look, no offense man, but the fact that there are anti-piracy schemes only indicates that there is some piracy, it's not a quantitative measure in any case.
Also, there are a lot of anti-marijuana ads on TV, that doesn't mean marijuana is death itself. For example, alcohol has worst effects on health and judgement that marijuana and that's legal.
Therefore, a measure against something shouldn't be how you judge that something.
V8VENOM:
"Prose,
It is still stealing property that one has not paid for, none of your statements (accurate or otherwise) validate stealing. Like I said, I've heard them all before, they're weak, lame, really make no difference to the facts. Yeah, this piracey thing is just a myth, oh brother! "
No, again, it is not property per say, it is intellectual property, it is different. There still is some difference, can we agree on that ? The only immediate thing downloading a game does is reducing the incentive of buying said game. It doesn't take a copy away. It is not stealing in the sense that 1 copy of that game cannot be sold. Every copy of that game can still be sold.
Can you please analyze my lame argument, por favor ? " I wouldn't buy it if it weren't free? "
robwright
Distinguished
- Feb 16, 2006
- 1,129
- 7
- 19,285
Prose, perhaps I have a skewed perspective since I cover games for a living, but yes, I would be a little surprised if a hardcore PC gamer told me he/she hadn't at least heard of Titan Quest. Again, this probably goes to the fact that I get padi to know about and play games. But where exactly is the shady logic in my post beyond that? The sad fact of the matter is that many people consider themselves hardcore PC games and true fans of the platform, but they still pirate titles. This, quite frankly, sickens me.
Call me crazy, think of m uncool, and peg me as a stooge for The Man, but I just don't think you can call yourself a fan or supporter of PC gaming if you're downloading games without paying for them. We can debate all day about whether or not pirating is stealing, but at the end of the day, the more people that pirate, the less money the developers make. The less money the developers make, the less quality goes into their next game (especially with the rising cost of development), and then we see fewer and fewer PC game developers and PC-only titles. And that, Prose, is the world we're currently living in.
V8VENOM: No, I am not saying that I can steal from big companies because they are big companies. I am saying that the world is already half-way, due to stupid pressure, into the "get me if you can" wagon. Game piracy isn't the black spot on a clean, white, sheet that represents the world's decisions.
tnor has a point in the sense that things are evolving and like the VHS with TV as well as human piano players and gramophones, gaming industry will have to adapt.
tnor has a point in the sense that things are evolving and like the VHS with TV as well as human piano players and gramophones, gaming industry will have to adapt.
popularity does pay the bills, for a wide variety of items. have you ever seen a people magazine? i'm not going to do a google search for you, but there are legions of people and businesses making money off of popularity. the whole field of advertising for example.
- Dec 31, 2007
- 953
- 33
- 19,020
Prose,
Can't judge anything -- wrong. Life is all about judgements and the decisions one makes based on those judgements.
If you don't like the society you live in and it's laws and regulations then find another society to live in, or go thru legal means to try and change it. In the US, at least you have the means to make change.
Can't judge anything -- wrong. Life is all about judgements and the decisions one makes based on those judgements.
If you don't like the society you live in and it's laws and regulations then find another society to live in, or go thru legal means to try and change it. In the US, at least you have the means to make change.
jay_l_a
Distinguished
- Feb 15, 2008
- 576
- 0
- 18,990
It’s very easy to assume the moral high ground/scream witchhunt. I smell a large pile of fecund hypocrisy.
Piracy is not good for the industry. I doubt many would dispute that.
My response was formulated as the red toy truck struck my brow as it flew out of the cot.
I’m all for the draconian measures that have been suggested as punishment. I think we should begin with some introspection. Any who have broken even the smallest law should turn themselves in immediately.
What’s that? You have a clear conscience/sheet? I salute you. You are in the minority.
You may be against stealing. That is good. Stealing comes back to bite us when we’re not looking.
The reason piracy is so prevalent is it’s one of those pesky ‘victimless’ crimes.
And that brings us full circle.
To my misinterpreted post.
Whilst I am against software piracy, I CAN UNDERSTAND why people do it.
NO ONE gets hurt, right?
Like speeding.
- Status
TRENDING THREADS
-
-
Nvidia DLSS4, MFG, and full ray tracing tested on RTX 5090 and RTX 5080- Started by Admin
- Replies: 29
-
Review Nvidia GeForce RTX 5080 Founders Edition review: Incremental gains over the previous generation
- Started by Admin
- Replies: 224
-
News Edward Snowden slams Nvidia's RTX 50-series 'F-tier value,' whistleblows on lackluster VRAM capacity
- Started by Admin
- Replies: 105
-
Discussion PSU recommendations and power supply discussion thread - Tom's hardware- Started by Darkbreeze
- Replies: 2K
-
Discussion What's your favourite video game you've been playing?- Started by amdfangirl
- Replies: 4K
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram