Apple - Intel Inside?

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>Honestly, had Apple computers not suffused schools so
>thoroughly in the '80s (and carried through the '90s), do you
> think that they would even exist today?

Maybe, maybe not, but that they did so, was just sound business sense, rather than luck :)

Now I'm not saying luck isn't ever a factor.. but when its repetitive, and the result of logical and/or smart moves, I wouldn't call it luck anymore.

>Again, I guess it all comes down to a matter of perspective.
> You can consider the effects of marketing as the results,
>or various other factors at that. But in the end what made
>ISVs decide to support Windows over OS/2?

Lots of reasons, and luck wasn't one of them. For instance, MS understood early on its important to have developpers, and make life easy for them. IBM never grasped that.

>What made Netscape decide to go purist and annoy their own
>customers so greatly that IE finally was able to pull ahead
>in the race?

Well, it wasn't bad luck :). Though I'm not sure what you say here is the real reason netscape went under..

>Hence my point of view. While there may be many factors that
> we can try to weigh, in many cases the survival of
>competing companies/standards/etc. is more a matter of luck
>than anything else. Someone has to win. Someone has to lose.
> Logic is rarely the deciding factor. And time is the sickle
> that weeds out the unlucky.

I disagree. Whomever takes the right decission wins, who takes the wrong ones, loses, its that simple. I'd say by definition, because the right path is the one that on hindsights lead to success. Of course, in setting out your strategy, unless you have a chrystall ball or time capsule, you are going to have to make guesses and estimates, so there is obviously the factor of luck, but some companies or CEO's just tend to have better foresight than others. I figured Jobs was one of them, until I read the confirmation he is moving to x86.. bad move, it won't be bad luck if they go under as a OEM within a couple of years :)

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
 
I was reading an article and it said that Apple's founder (Can't remember his name, sorry) basically took the Xerox idea when the Xerox executives didn't take it (He "Stole" the idea from Xerox), and then Bill Gates "Stole" it from him. I'm not sure that it is true, but if so I guess the saying "What goes around comes around" is very true.
 
Huh, it was my understanding that Apple allowed MS to use/copy some of it's OS software
Not to my knowledge. I don't know of any such agreement between Apple and MS.

Further than that however, my understanding is that, well, hell <i>everyone</i> was all coming up with the same ideas at the same time. Apple, MS, Atari, even Amiga, they all had the same basic concepts to look and feel. Granted, some people claimed to have intellectual property involved, and I believe Atari was one of the only ones to license said IP. IMHO however that claim on IP was pretty much BS anyway because if you look at the evolution of what lead up to the 'windowed gui', you'll find an awful lot of stepping stones in the form of proprietary softwares such as DOS shells and similar utilities. Hell, I've even seen games on the Intellivision that had UIs that would count as stepping stones in the arrival at a windowed GUI.

It was just a concept that everyone was working towards, and most people were working towards it in their own way. Of course it's up to the patent office to decide what is and isn't a valid patent and up to the courts to decide what does and doesn't infringe, but IMHO (more or less) everyone was taking their own paths towards <i>similar</i> ends.

<pre><font color=orange><i>Jesters do oft prove prophets.</i> -Regan in
King Lear (Act V, Scene iii) by William Shakespear</font color=orange></pre><p>@ 189K -> 200,000 miles or bust!
 
Ok, well i don't have anything to back up my statement. So i'll do a little looking around to see if i can find where i came up with that. It may be that i read something a while back and that 8in bluegill became a 22in largemouth. Thx slvr

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"...and i'm not gay" RX8 -Greatest Quote of ALL Time
 
Maybe, maybe not, but that they did so, was just sound business sense, rather than luck :)

Now I'm not saying luck isn't ever a factor.. but when its repetitive, and the result of logical and/or smart moves, I wouldn't call it luck anymore.
But what I'm saying is that Apple has had periods of smart moves, but even longer stretches of no (on uninteresting) moves. And at that their strong moves were done decades ago. So why hasn't Apple been culled from the collective crop during any of their low points? Pure luck IMHO.

Yes, they've done some smart things, and one can even argue that some of them are the reason that they're still alive today. And I can appreciate that POV. I just don't particularly see it that way myself. Basically, I can argue for both sides on this one, but I personally put the reasoning of luck higher than the reasoning of smart business decisions for Apple's survival. There are just so many times where they could have fallen off the face of the planet just like Amiga did.

MS understood early on its important to have developpers, and make life easy for them.
This itself is rather debatable. :\ I've been an MS programmer for almost as long as I've been a programmer. If there's one thing that MS has <i>always</i> been bad at, it's making their APIs known, and second to that, understandable. Especially in the early days you had to go to 3rd party informants who had reverse engineed the API information for any decent documentation because MS's documentation was crap. Worse, I'd bet even today at <i>least</i> 33% of MS's example code won't compile. (Personally I'd put it at more like 75% from my own experience, but then maybe I've had bad luck there.) And then there are times when MS totally screwed over developers, such as when they put the DOS console into Win95 and up, they cut a number of frequently used DOS interrupts, breaking an number of DOS apps. And I could go on and on. But basically, my point is that MS has <i>never</i> had a very good relation with serious ISVs. It's actually quite amazing how much ISVs have put up with MS. I think that mostly comes from a lack of decent alternatives.

Well, it wasn't bad luck :).
Well, true. What made Netscape do something so stupid was just Netscape being full of themselves. But IMHO why this was the straw that broke the camel's back is simply luck. It could have been anything. It just turned out to be this.

Though I'm not sure what you say here is the real reason netscape went under..
I doubt that anyone will ever be sure, but my observations of popular opinion at the time strongly nailed this as the leading factor. There are things that MS tried to do to break Netscape, but that never lost Netscape any market share. IE had been bundled with Windows since the first release of Win95, but that never lost Netscape any market share. Netscape still went on strongly during these times.

But then Netscape started getting goofy with their software. They changed a lot of the look and feel. Some people didn't like this. They started to lose market share. Then they followed that by going purist and stopped supporing a lot of features that they used to support because it wasn't 'clean' HTML. Their users suddenly couldn't access web pages that they used to. And tons of users were more or less forced to either go back to an earlier version of Netscape, or to switch to IE. Since IE was just a free as Netscape, an awful lot of people did just that. A few fanatics held out, and <i>eventually</i> got a browser update that they could use, but by then the war had been lost. IE had for the first time truly become better than Netscape because of Netscape's foolish decision, and so when Netscape finally reached equality again, even then, they still couldn't prove any real element of superiority. They offered no real reason to switch back to them. And then they hit financial difficulties, and that was that.

That was my observation of the events anyway. There were plenty of efforts by MS to squash Netscape, but they all failed. And it was ironicly Netscape's own decisions that resulted in their fall in the end.

I disagree. Whomever takes the right decission wins, who takes the wrong ones, loses, its that simple. I'd say by definition, because the right path is the one that on hindsights lead to success.
If right and wrong were in any way definable I might agree. But history has shown that what turns out to be 'right' and what turns out to be 'wrong' is in many cases just a matter of luck. Things just end up going a certain way, for no <i>good</i> reason. Supposed experts try to find reasons, but often they're only grasping at straws, and were the same situation to be repeated based on that reasoning it could have a completely different outcome.

but some companies or CEO's just tend to have better foresight than others.
I won't argue that. Some do have better foresight. But it's still like playing cards. You can play the odds, you can have probability on your side, but that doesn't ensure success. There's <i>always</i> an element of luck involved even when you know how to play the odds.

I figured Jobs was one of them, until I read the confirmation he is moving to x86.. bad move, it won't be bad luck if they go under as a OEM within a couple of years :)
**ROFL** While a part of me wants to agree with you here, I can't help but think that it's actually the first brilliant idea to go through Apple in a long time. Apple's PC sales just aren't making them money. (I'm not sure, but they might even be putting them at a loss.) So if Apple can increase their margins there by using a lot more PC equipment in their Macs, then all the better for them. It'll certainly cut their R&D costs dramatically.

But even more so than that, the ability to license the Mac name to other manufacturers (such as Dell) will enable Apple to make money on licensing. In time Apple might even be happy to never produce their own PCs again and just reap the licensing bounty instead of competing in hardware. While seemingly goofy for what has long been a computer company, it does make sense in the way that things have been going for Apple in the last decade, and might be the only real way that Apple can continue to afford existing in the PC industry.

Besides, I'm just dying for some OS to finally give Windows some competition. Linux has been failing badly in that respect because the Linux programmers are all to happy to keep Linux a geek thing. And frankly, I can't really blame them for that. So if a Mac OS port to Intel becomes available, and if a strong majority of the Mac software vendors throw their weight into Mactel software, then in five years Windows may be struggling to even retain a majority of the Intel client OS market. Mac OS is prettier, more stable, and much less exploited by virii. And with almost as much software available, it could end up becoming a very interesting race. :)

So it might very well mean the end of Apple-made Macs, but that in turn may actually end up better for Apple in the long run anyway, especially if Apple concentrates on being more a media and software oriented company. And there are so many other perverse opportunities that could arise from this decision that could make the PC world a very interesting place in a few years. To me it's almost as exciting as it is ironic.

<pre><font color=orange><i>Jesters do oft prove prophets.</i> -Regan in
King Lear (Act V, Scene iii) by William Shakespear</font color=orange></pre><p>@ 189K -> 200,000 miles or bust!
 
>If there's one thing that MS has always been bad at, it's
>making their APIs known, and second to that, understandable.
> Especially in the early days you had to go to 3rd party
>informants who had reverse engineed the API information for
>any decent documentation because MS's documentation was
>crap.

Not for 99% of the apps out there. Anything hidden or undocumented was there to avoid competition with MS' own products, but for typical application development, in my experience, MS has always been (too) easy. Nice IDE's, cheap development tools, tons of resources, free libraries, bells and whistles. Quite a difference with OS/2.

>nd then there are times when MS totally screwed over
>developers, such as when they put the DOS console into Win95
>and up, they cut a number of frequently used DOS interrupts,
>breaking an number of DOS apps.

Good grief, if MS screwed up anything in 95, its not that they didn't allowed ALL Dos apps to be run, its that any would still run at all ! Or rather, that windows 95 wasn't much more than a dos app, rather than an OS :)

>There were plenty of efforts by MS to squash Netscape, but
>they all failed. And it was ironicly Netscape's own
>decisions that resulted in their fall in the end.

IMHO, the biggest reason was that IE finally became a viable alternative around version 4 or 5. That was all that was needed, as it was free, and was installed on like 98% of the computers out there. It didn't even have to be better, the pressure was on NS to make something worthwhile the hassle of purchasing it (initially) and downloading it later (on 28.8 !).

>So if Apple can increase their margins there by using a lot
>more PC equipment in their Macs, then all the better for
>them. It'll certainly cut their R&D costs dramatically

Yes, it will dramatically cut into their R&D, but it remains to be seen if they can keep their margins when competing more or less directly with Dell&Co. I'm not convinced yet, but time will tell.

>But even more so than that, the ability to license the Mac
>name to other manufacturers (such as Dell)

Won't happen, ever.
(well, never say never, but this is really far out IMO)..

>Mac OS is prettier, more stable, and much less exploited by
>virii. And with almost as much software available, it could
>end up becoming a very interesting race

Prettier ? Dunno, to each its own I guess. Use style XP, and your windows looks like a Mac if that is what you crave. More stable ? Nope. It crashes a good deal more often than XP in my experience, and that is despite the fact it only runs on controlled hardware, whereas XP is expected to run on any thinkable pc. Either way, we can hate MS all we want, saying XP isn't stable as an OS is nonsense today. I honestly don't think I've seen a BSOD or a reboot or anything other than an application crash in a year or two. More secure ? quite possibly, at least it is built on a solid foundation (BSD/March), but I doubt all the clumsy framework on top of that would prove any more secure than XP or Linux once it reaches large enough marketshare to gain the interest of viruswriters, hackers and the spyware boys. Windows 64 is also a lot more secure than XP32 today.. I think there is only one known "proof of concept" virus for it, that doesn't mean it will stay like that though :)

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
 
Ok here's some from an <A HREF="http://www.mackido.com/Interface/ui_history.html" target="_new">article</A>...It's biased but the important thing is that it makes reference to an agreement between MS and Apple. I'll look for a better link then this too and edit it in later...

Well it starts out that Microsoft was one of the first Application Developers for the Mac. Apple (Jobs) knew that the Mac needed Software to be commercially viable, and Jobs learned that Microsoft was trying to break in to the Application market (1).

(1) Few remember that MS made languages. Then later stole OS's (DOS). And it wasn't until the Mac that they started making Applications. The Mac was Microsoft's chance to break into the lucrative Application markets. (Microsoft had made a few feeble attempts before the Mac, but it was the Mac that made them successful in the application area. They knew that a new computer meant new opportunities.
Jobs showed Microsoft the early Mac prototypes. Gates liked the ideas and agreed to write Mac applications.

Gates later threatened to pull their apps at the last minute before release unless Jobs agreed to -

A) Apple had to license some of the MacUI for MS-Applications on the PC. This Application suite later grew into Windows 1.0 and Office. Remember, Windows started off as an Application Suite, not an OS-Shell (2).
(2) Because Apple had licensed some concepts to Microsoft (under coercion), it weakened their case later against MS when MS started more blatantly ripping off the Mac. Contrary to popular myth that Apple lost their lawsuit against MS because it wasn't a rip-off, the real reason was that they had been to vague in their licensing of some technologies, and the benefit of the doubt was given MS.
B) Apple had to drop their MacBasic project which was completed and better than MS Basic. MacBasic had many concepts that MS ripped off to create VisualBasic. What few ideas for VB that MS didn't rip off from MacBasic they got from HyperCard -- which Bill Atkinson wrote because the Mac didn't have a good simple programming environment, because MS had dropped their basic for the Mac and had forced MacBasic to canceled as well.

Later MS decided that the GUI was just too cool not to use. So they started on an Application Suite that would use the Macs concepts of Windows, a Mouse, and direct manipulation to achieve its ends. This became Windows 1.0, and evolved into the Windows we know and hate today. The lead programmer for the Windows project was the same guy who had been a lead programmer for writing the Mac Application projects.

This sequence of events (Microsoft "borrowing" the Mac interface) is not the same as taking rough concepts and adding to them to create your own system -- this is much more intimate than that. Microsoft took their best Mac Programmer, and had him making almost every design decision for early windows. He was told, by Bill Gates, to make a PC look and work, "JUST like a Mac" -- this is a direct quote from Gates! Contrast that sequence of events, to Apple and Xerox sequence of events, and you get an idea for the difference in philosophy and implementation.

<A HREF="http://www.proudlyserving.com/archives/2005/03/disliking_micro.html" target="_new">article 2</A>
Visual Basic had not shipped, and its development tools were weak. Microsoft was being sued by Apple over the "look and feel" of Windows, but the case involved <b>the extent of a license that Microsoft had signed with Apple</b>, not accusations of out-and-out theft (and Apple at the time was also a much larger company than Microsoft).

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"...and i'm not gay" RX8 -Greatest Quote of ALL Time<P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1><EM>Edited by apesoccer on 06/07/05 05:56 PM.</EM></FONT></P>
 
It is interesting that once Apple become successful with iPod+iTunes+Airport Express, many iPod/Apple haters appear, similar to MS Windows situation. People just don't like somebody else success? Do not like to give a prize when it is due?
 
Not for 99% of the apps out there. Anything hidden or undocumented was there to avoid competition with MS' own products, but for typical application development, in my experience, MS has always been (too) easy. Nice IDE's, cheap development tools, tons of resources, free libraries, bells and whistles. Quite a difference with OS/2.
I guess we've seen entirely different things then, because it was the exact opposite from where I sat. Back in the early days of Windows the MS documentation of their APIs was absolute crap, and sometimes what did exist was actually incorrect. Their example source code was often full of errors. And MS VC++ just flat out sucked compared to Boorland's products. (Hell, VC++6 still sucks. I haven't tried .NET though.)

It wasn't until well into the Win9x era that MS <i>finally</i> started fixing a lot of this. By today's standards they're not too bad, but in the beginning they were a nightmare.

Good grief, if MS screwed up anything in 95, its not that they didn't allowed ALL Dos apps to be run, its that any would still run at all ! Or rather, that windows 95 wasn't much more than a dos app, rather than an OS :)
**ROFL** While I won't entirely argue that (though I never did see a problem with an OS being a fancy DOS shell, so long as the DOS got updates to) I will say that supporting <i>most</i> (but not all) of the DOS interrupts was a very <i>bad</i> way to do things. You either break clean and start anew or you have 100% backward compatability. You don't make it 95% backward compatable with the lost 5% being heavily used stuff. That's just stupid.

IMHO, the biggest reason was that IE finally became a viable alternative around version 4 or 5. That was all that was needed, as it was free, and was installed on like 98% of the computers out there.
Yet in my experience most people didn't like (or often even trust) IE and were glad to use Netscape. (Especially since also around then Netscape became free.) My observations were that what turned most people off of Netscape was actually the switch to the Communicator user interface (not a single person that I knew liked it), followed by the switch to the Mozilla codebase for Netscape, which was extremely purist (and buggy) at first, thus making a lot of web pages not load and pissing a lot of customers off. There was a good solid period where people were actively going back to Netscape 4 and refusing to use the latest releases because they just didn't work. And because of this unhappy situation that Netscape themself created for their customers, a lot of people just started giving MS IE a try. And what do you know? They found that for the most part IE 4 (and up) really were almost as good as their old Netscape, and definately better than the buggy new Netscape.

the pressure was on NS to make something worthwhile the hassle of purchasing it (initially) and downloading it later (on 28.8 !).
It wasn't about being pre-installed. The pre-installed IE browser in Win95 just flat out sucked. You could barely even use it. Just about everyone who used IE was downloading the latest IE, so having to download wasn't the issue.

And it wasn't about being free either. Netscape became free before IE was even worth downloading. (Heck, before Win98 was even released.) So they were still on an equal playing field there.

It was about Netscape making mistake after mistake (<i>especially</i> once 5 hit) and forcing their customers into the situation where they either had to roll back to an old version and never see another update for who knew how long, or switch to another browser. And what other browsers were there worth switching to at that point?

Had Netscape not moved to a different code base (or at least waited until the Mozilla code was much better) I don't think that the browser war would ever have been won by IE.

but it remains to be seen if they can keep their margins when competing more or less directly with Dell&Co. I'm not convinced yet, but time will tell.
Which only matters so long as they're competing with Dell&Co. If they keep Mac OS for Mac PCs only and refuse to license production of Mac PCs to anyone else, then they'll never have any difference over what they're doing today, what they've always done.

And the flip side of that coin is that if Apple lets Mac OS be installed on regular PCs and/or licenses the Mac brand to Dell&Co, then Apple will be taking in licensing money that can make up for the margin loss or may even convince Apple to stop producing their own PCs all together and just collect licensing fees instead.

Prettier ? Dunno, to each its own I guess. Use style XP, and your windows looks like a Mac if that is what you crave.
Personally I'm more a Win2K look-and-feel guy myself. I don't need Windows-for-five-year-olds with its bright primary and secondary colors and rounded corners and even further hidden advanced options. Nor do I need to drown in the watery grave created by Apple.

But a lot of people are impressed by the latter, and even if there are ways to reproduce this, most people aren't smart enough even think about it. Look at how many major ISPs use features like free firewall, virus protection, messenger software, etc., etc. as major sellings point these days, as if Zone Alarm, Grisoft AVG, MSIM/YIM/AIM/etc. weren't just as free and available to <i>everyone</i>. Heck, you can even get free email and webspace.

The fact is that there are plenty of people impressed by Mac OS look and feel, and were it to ever compete directly with Windows that would be a selling point to plenty of people out there.

More stable ? Nope. It crashes a good deal more often than XP in my experience, and that is despite the fact it only runs on controlled hardware, whereas XP is expected to run on any thinkable pc. Either way, we can hate MS all we want, saying XP isn't stable as an OS is nonsense today.
I never said that XP isn't stable. Hell, 2K was stable. XP isn't any different in my experience. They'll both run 24 hours a day for months straight without a hitch in my experience.

But, again, people are stupid. Just because we've both seen more Mac OS crashes than Win2K/XP crashes doesn't mean that Joe Blow even remotely believes it. Joe Blow still remembers their last PC, running WinME. Once bitten, twice shy. You'll have to clear the minds of every Joe Blow who ever ran Win9x/ME before they'll readily trust version of Windows to be stable. And that's not even counting the number of major OEMs who ship PoS systems that have their own hardware problems. People generally blame those problems on Windows too, just because Windows is the first thing they see, especially if it BSODs, even if all that they needed was a better power supply.

More secure ? quite possibly, at least it is built on a solid foundation (BSD/March), but I doubt all the clumsy framework on top of that would prove any more secure than XP or Linux once it reaches large enough marketshare to gain the interest of viruswriters, hackers and the spyware boys.
Again, I completely agree, and once Mac OS has an actual chunk of the market share that makes targetting it worth the VXers while, it'll probably suffer far worse that Windows. (At least that's what I'm expecting.) But until that market share breaking point Mac OS is more secure not because of code, but because of a lack of any attacker's interest. So Mac OS has a few years before its illusion of safety falls, and that's plenty of time to pretend to be secure and gain market share from it, <i>especially</i> when security is such a buzz word today.

It's funny how so many people are so concerned about security, and yet most haven't even set up their Windows update to run regularly and most don't even own a hardware firewall (or use any that are built into their hardware) or use freely available fireware software.

As a side note though, I'm not entirely convinced that Linux code is actually any more secure than Mac OS or even Windows right now. It's still way too untested. There are a lot of arguments to be made for Linux like faster fixes and more secure by default, but I've already seen way too often where Linux users just unsecure their settings because good security is a pain in the arse, and where they've run the same kernel without an update for years. And who knows how many lurking backdoors or buffer overflows haven't been caught yet because it's so untested?

Windows 64 is also a lot more secure than XP32 today.. I think there is only one known "proof of concept" virus for it, that doesn't mean it will stay like that though :)
This is one area where I'll readily admit I know next to nothing about, as I don't have any use for 64-bit software yet. (Being still on 32-bit procs and all.) How is the 64-bit version any safer than WinXP SP2 with a no-execute proc?

<pre><font color=orange><i>Jesters do oft prove prophets.</i> -Regan in
King Lear (Act V, Scene iii) by William Shakespear</font color=orange></pre><p>@ 189K -> 200,000 miles or bust!
 
Have you noticed you're the only one here that is pro big-arse-corporate(or pro M$ for that matter)?
I dunno. I'm all for any big-arse-mega-corp that puts out a good product at a fair price and doesn't treat their customers like $#!7. I'm not one of those people that roots for the underdog just because they're the underdog. As far as I'm concerned the underdog can kiss my asterisk if they can't compete well enough to win my business. (But if they can compete, then good, another option.)

And as much as I dislike MS's ethics, their software is getting pretty good. Given a choice I'd readily use MS Office over Sun StarOffice or OpenOffice. It's just plain better. (Though I haven't tried the OpenOffice 2 stuff yet.) And I'll definately take Adobe's or JASC's paint programs over GIMP. The big companies just generally make better products.

That aside, my pocketbook isn't stunningly full, so I'll readily use freeware and low-cost shareware when I can't afford the good stuff. But usually that doesn't mean that I prefer it. Usually I'd still rather have the better software from the big boys.

<pre><font color=orange><i>Jesters do oft prove prophets.</i> -Regan in
King Lear (Act V, Scene iii) by William Shakespear</font color=orange></pre><p>@ 189K -> 200,000 miles or bust!
 
all bickering aside

WHEN CAN I GET THE X86 BINARIES OF MACOS!!!!

im eager to give this sucker a spin on my intel 😛

ive tried emulating MACos on my desktop, but slow as hell.
 
>How is the 64-bit version any safer than WinXP SP2 with a
>no-execute proc?

Inherently, its not.. well, maybe it might be slightly more secure, as XP64 is based on the Windows Server 2003 codebase, which is newer, and apparently a bit better/cleaner than XP. It also has some tighter default settings for the same reason.

But the real difference is just that most virii don't run under WoW64 emulation and virus makers still have to port their code to XP64 😀 Hence, not a lot of virii yet for 64 bit windows...yet.

= The views stated herein are my personal views, and not necessarily the views of my wife. =
 
An interesting discussion. Thanks for the links and the effort. And I'll readily grant that there must have been a licensing agreement between MS and Apple to produce products. This isn't surprising since Apple has MS Office to this day. I'd just never actually heard of such an early license between them before.

There are plenty of errors in the first article, both factual and logical in the article too, but I couldn't be bothered to go over them all. Just as I couldn't be bothered to go over the second article right now. I'm just not in the mood to spend <i>that</i> much time on this.

As for the question of if MS actually stole IP from Apple however, the first article mostly just contradicts itself. It first states things like:
who believed in concepts of a Graphical User Interface. These concepts are pretty broad -- like making a computer easier to use by using graphics (icons), using menus, windows and making a consistent interface to do things. The work on these concepts predates Xerox PARC
Remember the following: Icons were not new, we had been using them for years for international street signs and so on -- they were only new on computers. Menus were not new, text based menus were being used and had been for a while. Graphics weren't new, though how much they were relied upon was new. The concepts of User Interface (Human Factors) was not new, it was just a little newer in applying it to computers.
And that little if any Xerox work was taken, and the Mac was in a completely different universe. Some broad concepts were in common, but that is about it. Apple furthered those concepts, developed their own, and had totally different implementations.
These are all fair justifications and I don't disagree with any of them. But later in the article what the author justifies for Apple isn't equally justified for anyone else, not Atari, not Amiga, and certainly not MS. Sorry, but that just doesn't make sense. He was right the first time, that the concept of a GUI wasn't new. It had been evolving over time. And it was only a matter of time before others came out with similar concepts in their own softwares. Even if they saw someone else's and tried to make their own, that's more reverse engineering than IP theft, and certainly not illegal.

This similarity was (of Windows to MacOS) is not just in design, there are whole toolboxes/API that are almost identical (in interface). Microsoft stole data structures and many routines, and the names and concepts for many things are the same as well.
And this is an incredibly decietful argument to try to make. A <i>lot</i> of APIs and interfaces between different products will remain similar simply because no one wants to upset the developers by handing them a completely different interface. You have to be pretty bold to do that to your developers. So most of the time new products will mirror the APIs and concepts of old products. And it's actually quite convenient. For example I can port code to draw pixels directly to a context from Apple, Windows, even Qt's libraries (and probably plenty of other systems that I haven't worked on at that) all with very little effort because the APIs are so similar. No one 'stole' from the other. It's a choice of convenience to the developers.

So, to finish my thoughts:

Was there a contract? It's the first I've heard of it, but I see no reason to disbelieve. Consider me corrected. :)

Did MS steal pieces of code directly from Apple? That's certainly possible. It greatly fits in with Gate's MO for the time. However copyright law allows for this so long as you make significant changes to the works. So was it done illegally? Probably not.

And most importantly of all, was the Windows GUI concept itself an outright IP theft? Not in my opinion. The concept of a GUI had been long in development in so many different places. I don't believe that there was any private concept there to steal. It was obvious that it was coming, and there were plenty of others making their own as well, yet most were surprisingly similar, not because of theft, but because of the blatant obviousness of the ideas.

<pre><font color=orange><i>Jesters do oft prove prophets.</i> -Regan in
King Lear (Act V, Scene iii) by William Shakespear</font color=orange></pre><p>@ 189K -> 200,000 miles or bust!
 
WHEN CAN I GET THE X86 BINARIES OF MACOS!!!!
Right now. Apple is selling developers kits for a grand. It's a P4 3.6GHz with Mactel binaries and even multiplatform libraries for easy dual compatability.

<pre><font color=orange><i>Jesters do oft prove prophets.</i> -Regan in
King Lear (Act V, Scene iii) by William Shakespear</font color=orange></pre><p>@ 189K -> 200,000 miles or bust!
 
Inherently, its not.. well, maybe it might be slightly more secure, as XP64 is based on the Windows Server 2003 codebase, which is newer, and apparently a bit better/cleaner than XP. It also has some tighter default settings for the same reason.

But the real difference is just that most virii don't run under WoW64 emulation and virus makers still have to port their code to XP64 😀 Hence, not a lot of virii yet for 64 bit windows...yet.
Ah. Makes sense.

And I sure hope that MS learned their mistakes from ME and does things right this time.

<pre><font color=orange><i>Jesters do oft prove prophets.</i> -Regan in
King Lear (Act V, Scene iii) by William Shakespear</font color=orange></pre><p>@ 189K -> 200,000 miles or bust!
 
Yea, again i wasn't terribly impressed with the first article, but it had that reference to some sort of contract with MS. I'm trying to remember what that second one was about now, but i can't remember. I think it had another reference to the contract, but not much else. I couldn't actually find anything that had very good specifics unfortunately.

gotta run laterz

F@H:
AMD: [64 3000+][2500+][2000+ down][1.3x2][366]
Intel: [X 3.0x3][P4 3.0x2][P4 2.4x5 down][P4 1.4]

"...and i'm not gay" RX8 -Greatest Quote of ALL Time
 
I have been thinking the same thing...

you think there a good chace there will be more AMDs+INTELS on the market with OSX installed at home or at none apple stores then what apple may sell?



<b><A HREF="http://www.digitalgunfire.com" target="_new">DigitalGunfire-Industrial EBM</A></b>
ASUS P4S8X-P4 2.4B - 2x512M DDR333 - ATI 9500Pro - WD80G HD(8M) - SAMSUNG SV0844D 8G HD - LG 16X DVD - Yamaha F1 CDRW
 
SOOOO

right now, if i had those binaries, i could load em up on my Intel machine and run MACos?
That still has to be determined. In theory, yes. In reality? Beats the heck out of me. For all I know Apple may have special hardware in their development box that's needed to run Mac OS. That's what I'd do were I Apple, at least for right now. But then again, they may not have bothered. **shrug**

I wonder if the binaries are available by themselves somewhere...

<pre><font color=orange><i>Jesters do oft prove prophets.</i> -Regan in
King Lear (Act V, Scene iii) by William Shakespear</font color=orange></pre><p>@ 189K -> 200,000 miles or bust!
 
Apple will try their very best to avoid that.
But don't worry, there are 100000000 Warez d00dz for every Apple employee. :smile:
Damn skippy. We can install Linux on an XBox. Even with all of its anti-piracy $#!7 we can still pirate WinXP. We'll have a way to install Mactel MacOS on a PC in no time. :evil: <pre>(Not that I condone piracy.)</pre><p><pre><font color=orange><i>Jesters do oft prove prophets.</i> -Regan in
King Lear (Act V, Scene iii) by William Shakespear</font color=orange></pre><p>@ 189K -> 200,000 miles or bust!
 
So you saying you're still going to pay Steve Blowjob for his MactelOS X just to run it on normal PC?
Yep. If I can bring myself to actually pay Billy, I can certainly pay Stevie. Of course, I don't know if I <i>want</i> Mactel OS X, so I may not pay anyone. But if I get it, I'll do it legally.

I guess that's what happens when you're a software developer, you actually have this thing against piracy and all that. :O

Of course I always love <i>free</i> software. I program in Python. I version control with WinCVS. I've got a PostgreSQL database. I use GIMP and Open Office regularly. I filter my email with SpamBayes. I software firewall with Zone Alarm. I anti-virus with Grisoft AVG. I browse the net with Firefox. I rock on with WinAmp. Etc. Etc. (So far I'm not a big fan of Linux though. It's just too painful to get into the habit of using regularly.) But still, that stuff is all free. Piracy I don't do. It's just not my thing.

(And when the hell is Open Office going to <i>finally</i> release an official 2.0 anyway?)

<pre><font color=purple>The silence is golden, even if the PC is olden. Fanless P4C2.6 rocks.</font color=purple></pre><p>@ 190K -> 200,000 miles or bust!
 
Nope. Don't need it. (And if I did, I'd pay.)

<pre><font color=purple>The silence is golden, even if the PC is olden. Fanless P4C2.6 rocks.</font color=purple></pre><p>@ 190K -> 200,000 miles or bust!