News Apple's M1 Chip Is Bringing Long-Time x86 PC Users to the Arm-Powered Mac

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zodiacfml

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not even click bait or exaggeration, not in my life have I considered Apple products until the M1. Considering Apple products have fat margins and the pricey M1 part at 5nm, one has to wonder how fat the margins are in Intel products since they stagnated at 14nm. Intel lagging and declining is just so disappointing from a tech point of view.
 

OriginFree

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"...roughly half of the Mac and iPad sales in the second quarter of 2021 were to people who'd never owned those devices."

It can be spun plenty of ways, but half of the new devices going to people that haven't owned an equivalent Apple product before is a big deal. Imagine Dell saying, "50% of people buying our new products have never owned a Dell before." That's a ton of new users, and considering Apple is selling a lot of M1 devices to existing Apple users, it's an even bigger deal.



What's the split between laptops and iPads? I doubt it's as skewed as you sarcastically suggested. Maybe not 50-50, but 33-67 is reasonable, and almost certainly better than 25-75.


Hmmm, I would have said it was worse. I know dozens of people who would grab a tablet but almost nobody who wants a Mac computer who doesn't already have one. Now my bubble of people isn't that large but I'd be surprised if the laptops were over 10%.
 

SSGBryan

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Define overpriced...

If someone wants a really basic desktop or laptop for office applications and da intawebz then the cheapest possible Apple is vastly overpriced.

If someone wants a high powered workstation, then for the raw performance an Apple is in the realm of double the price/performance of a non-Apple product.

The "value" of Apple machines is primarily down to software as re-learning a software package can cost a lot of money (and time, which is more money), and likewise the software eco-system. This is why "design" companies often have the secretary using an Apple even though a dirt cheap PC costing half the price would do the job just as well because if anyone else in the company needs to use the secretary's computer they might not be able to easily find their way around, likewise for the server side of things.

Apple is essentially differentiated from all else by the software and software ecosystem, and that is where the majority of the "value" lies IMHO.

Yeah, about that.......

"Design" companies do that so their customers can see that the company is "cool". There is very little software that is only available on the Mac (certainly not outside of Logic & Final Cut).

If your software doesn't actually run on ARM (and according to the software maker of my mission critical apps: not anytime soon), it doesn't matter how "good" the hardware is.

I was running Power Macs & Mac Pros since 2001 - I am now running a AMD/Win10 system; because at the end of the day, I need performance. Neither the M1 nor the M2 will provide that.
 

Sergei Tachenov

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This doesn't make any sense. The x86 platform is all about legacy software. There are so many programs from Windows 95 age to modern times, many come as x86 or x64 binaries with no source code. It's not Android with its byte codes. Old games, professional software... none of this is going to work on a non-compatible architecture.

Apple has nothing to do with the PC platform. Its their own environment for their own users.
 

watzupken

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Count me in that number. I have not used a MacBook for almost 15 years and I've just started using (at least a month now) a MacBook Air M1 after hearing all the positive reviews. After giving it a spin for a week, I ditched my Ice Lake U based laptop. Looking back for the month of so usage, I don't regret it. I am not into all the benchmark results because most of them don't matter much to me. What blew me away was simply my experience of the system being quick and very responsive (despite being passively cooled), and the excellent battery life which easily doubles any laptop that I used to own. I use it for movies, surfing net, and for work.

But like some pointed out, if you are into gaming, then the Mac ecosystem is not for you. And even though the integrated GPU is miles ahead of the iGPU from AMD and Intel, it is still not meant for serious gaming. I game on my desktop, so its no problem for me.

In short, x86 is unlikely to go away anytime even with strong competition from x64 processors/ SOC. Even on Windows, ARM chips are unlikely to gain similar success like Apple's M1 due to very weak software and hardware integration.
 
Let's hope Microsoft builds their own ARM-based chip soon and releases Windows for ARM. Windows users don't want to become laughing stock, stuck on the outdated x86 architecture. Apple M1 at 20W matches or outperforms 125W Intel chips. M2 will probably completely wipe the floor with anything x86. I'd love to play Flight Simulator 2020 on a 125W ARM64 PC...
They did Windows for ARM with Windows RT. A key problem was no apps supported it and it died.
 
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ginthegit

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I read years ago that Apple owned over 90% of the $1000+ PC market. If those numbers are still relatively accurate, then Apple isn't converting anyone, they are just maintaining their dominant high end market share among new people willing to pay a lot for a prebuilt system. That's still great news for Apple, but not really newsworthy for the PC side as it doesn't indicate any sort of market shift.

And it does not include avid gamers. My Wife is an Applephile, she loves the Design, the seemless operation and the apparent perfect performance.
personally 7 years ago when I was working in dubai, they gave me an iPad to work with and a iMac, and I wasnt overall impressed. I had a Asus Phone Pad 8 and it was as fast, 4 times cheaper, same hardware, could take calls and could work on standard connectors. As long as I stayed with the right Apps it worked fine and I loved it better than the iPad.
Why Pay more for the same?
 

ginthegit

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"The M1 chip outperforms much of its x86 competition in various benchmarks even though it's more power-efficient and, in the MacBook Air's case, might be throttled if it starts to get too hot. But in many types of workloads, that combination of performance and power efficiency is essentially unrivaled in notebooks equipped with x86 processors."

Which benchmarks are these the only thing i've seen are useless Geekbench scores?

Dream on, the M1 chip shows massive improvements with the Dev kit because of the algorythms they use when comparing. In reality it never works that way. And worse, the Graphics has to be up to the bar too. Being as large parts of the chip are dedicated to "AI" which is just Spyware, you wont get as much as you think out of it.
Being as Some Linux Distros are now overtaking Windows (bloatware) with performance, I think you will find its because of OSXI that the extra performance is yielded, in a similar way to Linux (being as it is just a heavily modified Linux/Unix system).
Don't get roped in, you just a "rope a dope" nut.
 
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Whereas most of us can't afford the Cupertino idiot factory's 40% mark up. Notwithstanding I cannot bear the fisher-price Macos UX.
Nah. You’re jealous.sour grapes and all!! So you must hate BSD and Linux too, right? Hahaha. Sour grapes. That idiot factory —as you say—make a Ton of $$$ and you can’t stand how successful they are.

Whatever go buy your 💩 phones and your crappy tablets and enjoy yourself
 
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Makaveli

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Dream on, the M1 chip shows massive improvements with the Dev kit because of the algorythms they use when comparing. In reality it never works that way. And worse, the Graphics has to be up to the bar too. Being as large parts of the chip are dedicated to "AI" which is just Spyware, you wont get as much as you think out of it.
Being as Some Linux Distros are now overtaking Windows (bloatware) with performance, I think you will find its because of OSXI that the extra performance is yielded, in a similar way to Linux (being as it is just a heavily modified Linux/Unix system).
Don't get roped in, you just a "rope a dope" nut.

All that is great but you didn't answer my question.

What benchmarks?
 

ginthegit

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Define overpriced...

If someone wants a really basic desktop or laptop for office applications and da intawebz then the cheapest possible Apple is vastly overpriced.

If someone wants a high powered workstation, then for the raw performance an Apple is in the realm of double the price/performance of a non-Apple product.

The "value" of Apple machines is primarily down to software as re-learning a software package can cost a lot of money (and time, which is more money), and likewise the software eco-system. This is why "design" companies often have the secretary using an Apple even though a dirt cheap PC costing half the price would do the job just as well because if anyone else in the company needs to use the secretary's computer they might not be able to easily find their way around, likewise for the server side of things.

Apple is essentially differentiated from all else by the software and software ecosystem, and that is where the majority of the "value" lies IMHO.

LOL, so are you generalising to windows? or are you also considering Linux into the equation.
you realise that Apples OS is just another UNIX/Linux based heavily modified distro. If you have used linux (like Mint), you will find that it is a great alternative to windows, with it own eco systems of programs and APPs that are vetted and secure, and also have less Viruses than IOS and MACOS thanks to the contimually changing Kernel.

So literally, if you spend time looking for a Linux distro that works well with the WINE compatability layer, you will find that you point of the software and its eco system is also not a winning point for apple. And the best thing is, Linux Distros are as powerful as windows and Apples offering, have their own software eco systems and are FREEEEEEEEEE!

So Apple = rip off on all accounts.

I have a standard PC with both Linux Mint and windows and have the best of both worlds for the uses I have. And Mint has better security by defult than both. Its too complex and difficult for hackers to hack and linux has become very much a PnP software which is now very easy to install.
 
LOL, so are you generalising to windows? or are you also considering Linux into the equation.
you realise that Apples OS is just another UNIX/Linux based heavily modified distro. If you have used linux (like Mint), you will find that it is a great alternative to windows, with it own eco systems of programs and APPs that are vetted and secure, and also have less Viruses than IOS and MACOS thanks to the contimually changing Kernel.

So literally, if you spend time looking for a Linux distro that works well with the WINE compatability layer, you will find that you point of the software and its eco system is also not a winning point for apple. And the best thing is, Linux Distros are as powerful as windows and Apples offering, have their own software eco systems and are FREEEEEEEEEE!

So Apple = rip off on all accounts.

I have a standard PC with both Linux Mint and windows and have the best of both worlds for the uses I have. And Mint has better security by defult than both. Its too complex and difficult for hackers to hack and linux has become very much a PnP software which is now very easy to install.
To be more precise, Apple used the freeBSD kernel and made their own version of it. It's also a little endian architecture (IIRC), so it's not easy to port software to it without re-writing a lot of things. I'd imagine this is something Apple intends.

Cheers!
 

TheJoker2020

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LOL, so are you generalising to windows? or are you also considering Linux into the equation.
you realise that Apples OS is just another UNIX/Linux based heavily modified distro.
As this thread started with Apple claiming a whole heap of "new" users, I never bothered to bring Linux users into the equation because, well, they are Linux users, and as such use non-Apple hardware just like Windows users do, but are quite unlikely to move from linux to Apple, and of course the number of Windows users dwarf that of Apple and Linux combined (excluding servers).

The use of "Wintel" is no longer valid, as we also have WAMD, Lintel and LAMD, essentially though, this is all about a questionable claim made by Apple who never talk about Linux in their advertising (not that I have seen any adverts for a long time, they never used to), and so I assume that Apple was directing this at MicroShaft.
 

ginthegit

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To be more precise, Apple used the freeBSD kernel and made their own version of it. It's also a little endian architecture (IIRC), so it's not easy to port software to it without re-writing a lot of things. I'd imagine this is something Apple intends.

Cheers!

But you dont need to know how the software works, just how to implant something as most malicious software it self run by deception.

Linux takes itself to its heights with its own closed system and when Greg is checking code to make sure the Kernel is not corrupted, it means that Linux is initself the same. It means that though you point you make is true, so is it true in a different way for Linux.
 

ginthegit

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As this thread started with Apple claiming a whole heap of "new" users, I never bothered to bring Linux users into the equation because, well, they are Linux users, and as such use non-Apple hardware just like Windows users do, but are quite unlikely to move from linux to Apple, and of course the number of Windows users dwarf that of Apple and Linux combined (excluding servers).

The use of "Wintel" is no longer valid, as we also have WAMD, Lintel and LAMD, essentially though, this is all about a questionable claim made by Apple who never talk about Linux in their advertising (not that I have seen any adverts for a long time, they never used to), and so I assume that Apple was directing this at MicroShaft.

Then you have missed the point. The Apple claiming more customers is misleading. Their sales are being judged by a specific market in china, and this cannot be checked or quantified, so its like making a statment that is not possible to validate. It is a way to make people more comfortable with making a purchase of something that essentially does nothing different from Linux. The only advantage that MasOS's have is standardisation and that allows them to make a product that looks polished and feels advanced.

Otherwise I cannot see your logic in what you have said. You have taken this conversation into a massively different direction that I cannot connect how it relates to mine.

All of Apples OS's are based on the Unix Linux code and just branched off to a heavily modified different Distro that is closed and Very expensive. The Hardware is Fixed, and not exceptional except in Benchmarks and WINE is a compatability layer that allows Linux to play and run Windows apps and games sometimes faster than Windows itself.

My point was that Apple offers nothing that Windows or Linux offers, exept a big price tag.... and Linux offers no pricetag.
 
But you dont need to know how the software works, just how to implant something as most malicious software it self run by deception.

Linux takes itself to its heights with its own closed system and when Greg is checking code to make sure the Kernel is not corrupted, it means that Linux is initself the same. It means that though you point you make is true, so is it true in a different way for Linux.
What?

I don't think I understood anything you said there.

Cheers!
 
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ginthegit

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macOS uses the XNU kernel, which is based off of Mach, which itself is based off of BSD. Also the kernel itself is open source.

Head slap!

OK! you want to get into the History of the Carnagie Mellion University. They are the ones that promote this Kernel, and Greg would not let them add code to the Kernel.

Lets see

https://github.com/apple/darwin-xnu

X stands for Not Unix, but a hybrid of Unix and Darwin OS. The above link will show you how closely related the Unix code is to the XNU, and that it is written with C etc makes no difference, as it still has to be compiled into machine code.
The Joke that this is open source is laughable, being as the code only has a count on one had amount of contributors. (why the hell would you outsource a Kernel to the Open arena?).

So what you said is half true.

Look at the commands for compiling it, its all Unix based, and look at the folder structure! Hufffffff!

When you actually use Unix and see code like on the github above, I think we all know where the actual influence comes from.

Its open source mate, read for yourself!
 

ginthegit

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No. It's just your way of writing your ideas is just hard to understand.

No need to get rude and impolite.

Regards,

I apologise, I took you for a stance of mocking.

I am sorry that you cannot understand, but I am looking at this from an Engineers perspective, and talking about the issue from an informed stance. There are others on this Forum who talk absolute rubbish, So I am just clearing what is fact and what isnt. Some of the contrubutors here, (one is a moderator) has a tendancy to talk "Bum talk", and I have no time for it.

I do not mean to mock, but there are a few people who keep posting that clearly have little clue, or only a high level understanding of the headlines and the relative background.

I use evidence, they like to spout something they heard once and misunderstood!
 
I apologise, I took you for a stance of mocking.

I am sorry that you cannot understand, but I am looking at this from an Engineers perspective, and talking about the issue from an informed stance. There are others on this Forum who talk absolute rubbish, So I am just clearing what is fact and what isnt. Some of the contrubutors here, (one is a moderator) has a tendancy to talk "Bum talk", and I have no time for it.

I do not mean to mock, but there are a few people who keep posting that clearly have little clue, or only a high level understanding of the headlines and the relative background.

I use evidence, they like to spout something they heard once and misunderstood!
You're not the only engineer in this forum. More specifically, I'm sure you're not the only CS and/or a CS with a Masters or PhD in this forum (if you're either of those) :)

I just don't get your point here. Apple has nasty practices that have nothing to do with engineering; you don't need to be an engineer to dislike the company based on how it behaves towards its customers. In fact, from the engineering perspective, they're quite a good company. Their hardware and overall solutions are well-desigened and implemented.

Whatever you don't like about Apple, I'm 150% sure it has nothing to do with "being an engineer", so I do not* know why you're linking the two here. Humble bragging? On the other hand, Apple origins are well known and they've taken... Er... "Inpiration" from everywhere, every openly. There's not a single source for their technology; be it software or hardware. Look at Metal... That's mostly a Vulkan ripoff. I'm sure we can list quite a few items, but I guess that's completely besides the point here, no?

Regards,
 

ginthegit

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You're not the only engineer in this forum. More specifically, I'm sure you're not the only CS and/or a CS with a Masters or PhD in this forum (if you're either of those) :)

I just don't get your point here. Apple has nasty practices that have nothing to do with engineering; you don't need to be an engineer to dislike the company based on how it behaves towards its customers. In fact, from the engineering perspective, they're quite a good company. Their hardware and overall solutions are well-desigened and implemented.

Whatever you don't like about Apple, I'm 150% sure it has nothing to do with "being an engineer", so I do not* know why you're linking the two here. Humble bragging? On the other hand, Apple origins are well known and they've taken... Er... "Inpiration" from everywhere, every openly. There's not a single source for their technology; be it software or hardware. Look at Metal... That's mostly a Vulkan ripoff. I'm sure we can list quite a few items, but I guess that's completely besides the point here, no?

Regards,

It does impact everything. Using slaves to test to improve to mine and to build, is not only unethical, if the slaves didn't exist, would the Eco system be as progresed and as Refined?

Refinement is also to the eye of the beholder, and I have already wasted many hours trying to research what exactly the AI segments of the chips do! All I find is rhetoric and nonspecifics about its function or purpose. I like to look at both hardware and code, and I find all this AI very strange and fishy. For example, I did a little test on my wife where I had a coversation with he about flat earth, while she had her iPhone near, not only was the iPhone powered down and she had no clue I was going to bring up such a random conversation, within half an hour, My android phone and her apple phone were coming up with Flat earth pod casts in you tube and facebook... I proved my point to her and myself. It leaves me to speculate on the practices of apple and all the other semi conductor companies. Apple has boasted of significant parts of its new ARM chip being devoted to AI and it is all (supposedly) designed in house.
I am sorry, but I find all of the companies wrong on this issue.

Now, to aim at apple specifically, they treat all their systems like an XBOX or Playstation. When you standardise hardware and drivers across a whole line, you end up with a system that is easy to optimise, easy to make look seemless and without flaw... but in reality, all you have done is found a way to control its perception, optimise the code to reduce bottle necks (related to specific hardware only) and produce a one use system that if upgraded would not look to polished.

The other OS Pukedows (Windows) is a collection of bloatware programs, much of which you sign up to when you gave control to microsoft when installing the win10 ugrade. You never own the software, they can force it to be uninstalled (via the EULA you agreed to,) and so can Apple. But at least Windows can be better if you install good drivers and dont clutter up the registry, when new hardware is installed. The problem is, it never needed to XP was good enough, small enough and fast enough, but like in the apple eco system, they believed the lie that in order to have DX12 finctionality, you needed to have Windows 10. They also broke their EULA (as did apple) with the promise of continual updates to buggy and incomplete software. Apple used to refine things better, by doing what legally Microsoft should be doing, testing to hell with an open source, but informed environment (not regular users), so they cannot only determine the obvious bugs, but the intentional/ unintentional buggy code that leads to Kernel attacks.

Enter the Dragon, Linux... It not only offers the same functionality as apple, it i smaller, more refined, even less buggy, but does not have all the GIMMICKS that apple lures. Note that 7 years ago, my Asus Phone pad 8 had exact same hardware as the current Ipad and Iphone. But I paid 8 magnitudes less in cost, and had access to the ASUS closed eco system of updates and Programs. So what was the difference... Not much, ,you could put a few more fingers on the screen, that was it... oh and the OS that kept causeing problems with the battery, and getting sued because the problem in the Middle east was found to be deliberate, and forcing the upgrades. My wifes Iphone 4 became pitiful over night, after one update, and my Fone pad was still going until recently.

Linux offers, more versatility, less gimicks (power waste) and has access to hoards of hardware that iMacs dont have. They are less buggy and have less viruses than both the others, and you can make them look good as the other two, if you set them up that way. WINE means that you can install most windows programs and get the best of both worlds, running in a Sand box.

I'm sorry, but assides from top quality, but massively overpriced hardware, and gimped an gimicked OS, I see no advantage to Apple at all. I will stick to Linux, you can stick to Apple....

LOL now that the Hardware is changing the Apple Kernel has to change again (bet it goes back to Unix), when the x64 iterations end.... And they will just call it hybrid again.... LOL... Hybrod only in that the Carnagies have control of it... Only them... and we all trust the Carnagie foundation, that is trying to force Race into education etc.
 
It does impact everything. Using slaves to test to improve to mine and to build, is not only unethical, if the slaves didn't exist, would the Eco system be as progresed and as Refined?

Refinement is also to the eye of the beholder, and I have already wasted many hours trying to research what exactly the AI segments of the chips do! All I find is rhetoric and nonspecifics about its function or purpose. I like to look at both hardware and code, and I find all this AI very strange and fishy. For example, I did a little test on my wife where I had a coversation with he about flat earth, while she had her iPhone near, not only was the iPhone powered down and she had no clue I was going to bring up such a random conversation, within half an hour, My android phone and her apple phone were coming up with Flat earth pod casts in you tube and facebook... I proved my point to her and myself. It leaves me to speculate on the practices of apple and all the other semi conductor companies. Apple has boasted of significant parts of its new ARM chip being devoted to AI and it is all (supposedly) designed in house.
I am sorry, but I find all of the companies wrong on this issue.

Now, to aim at apple specifically, they treat all their systems like an XBOX or Playstation. When you standardise hardware and drivers across a whole line, you end up with a system that is easy to optimise, easy to make look seemless and without flaw... but in reality, all you have done is found a way to control its perception, optimise the code to reduce bottle necks (related to specific hardware only) and produce a one use system that if upgraded would not look to polished.

The other OS Pukedows (Windows) is a collection of bloatware programs, much of which you sign up to when you gave control to microsoft when installing the win10 ugrade. You never own the software, they can force it to be uninstalled (via the EULA you agreed to,) and so can Apple. But at least Windows can be better if you install good drivers and dont clutter up the registry, when new hardware is installed. The problem is, it never needed to XP was good enough, small enough and fast enough, but like in the apple eco system, they believed the lie that in order to have DX12 finctionality, you needed to have Windows 10. They also broke their EULA (as did apple) with the promise of continual updates to buggy and incomplete software. Apple used to refine things better, by doing what legally Microsoft should be doing, testing to hell with an open source, but informed environment (not regular users), so they cannot only determine the obvious bugs, but the intentional/ unintentional buggy code that leads to Kernel attacks.

Enter the Dragon, Linux... It not only offers the same functionality as apple, it i smaller, more refined, even less buggy, but does not have all the GIMMICKS that apple lures. Note that 7 years ago, my Asus Phone pad 8 had exact same hardware as the current Ipad and Iphone. But I paid 8 magnitudes less in cost, and had access to the ASUS closed eco system of updates and Programs. So what was the difference... Not much, ,you could put a few more fingers on the screen, that was it... oh and the OS that kept causeing problems with the battery, and getting sued because the problem in the Middle east was found to be deliberate, and forcing the upgrades. My wifes Iphone 4 became pitiful over night, after one update, and my Fone pad was still going until recently.

Linux offers, more versatility, less gimicks (power waste) and has access to hoards of hardware that iMacs dont have. They are less buggy and have less viruses than both the others, and you can make them look good as the other two, if you set them up that way. WINE means that you can install most windows programs and get the best of both worlds, running in a Sand box.

I'm sorry, but assides from top quality, but massively overpriced hardware, and gimped an gimicked OS, I see no advantage to Apple at all. I will stick to Linux, you can stick to Apple....

LOL now that the Hardware is changing the Apple Kernel has to change again (bet it goes back to Unix), when the x64 iterations end.... And they will just call it hybrid again.... LOL... Hybrod only in that the Carnagies have control of it... Only them... and we all trust the Carnagie foundation, that is trying to force Race into education etc.
One important thing to mention, as I think you're assuming incorrectly again: the only Apple thing I own is my 2012 16GB iPod, which I like very much and had no direct competition when I got it new. Other than that, I have not owned anything Apple. Now they've killed the iTunes store and I have to disconnect my laptop from the internet (as it seems the FW rules don't work on it for some reason) so it doesn't kill itself. So no, I do not like Apple as a Company at all.

As for the rest of your comments, I won't make any assumptions and just say that I hope the Right to Repair becomes a law for everything in the USA for everyone's sake. The EU has a somewhat good grasp on it, but the USA needs to do it as well. This is a hard tangent, but I believe it's in-line with your thoughts after reading between the lines.

Regards,
 
You're not the only engineer in this forum. More specifically, I'm sure you're not the only CS and/or a CS with a Masters or PhD in this forum (if you're either of those) :)

I just don't get your point here. Apple has nasty practices that have nothing to do with engineering; you don't need to be an engineer to dislike the company based on how it behaves towards its customers. In fact, from the engineering perspective, they're quite a good company. Their hardware and overall solutions are well-desigened and implemented.

Whatever you don't like about Apple, I'm 150% sure it has nothing to do with "being an engineer", so I do not* know why you're linking the two here. Humble bragging? On the other hand, Apple origins are well known and they've taken... Er... "Inpiration" from everywhere, every openly. There's not a single source for their technology; be it software or hardware. Look at Metal... That's mostly a Vulkan ripoff. I'm sure we can list quite a few items, but I guess that's completely besides the point here, no?

Regards,
Honestly someone who flaunts their so-called credentials and puts down others sounds like they're in way over their head.

(also I'm now expecting a colorful post about how I'm the dumb one who doesn't understand)
 
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